Steel pushes

[DoomslugTD]

I was wondering something, I have always found the mecahnics of steel pushing somewhat vauge when I read, so I wanted to ask a couple questions. First, when you are burning steel you can see the blue lines, when you push on these lines does it take more steel? if not, can you just push on a ton of different objects to create a higher total net force out of a small amount of steel? Second, I have heard contradicting things on this, does the weight of the allomancer effect the strength of the push at all? if so does it just make the push stronger for the same amount of steel, or does it allow you to use more steel to push harder? Third, in the books it mentions that larger objects have larger lines pointing to them, and are easier to detect from further away, does this mean you can push harder on these large objects. At a longer range? and if so does this require a greater amount of steel, or does it just become more effeciant? Thank you!

[alder24]

19 minutes ago, DoomslugTD said:

First, when you are burning steel you can see the blue lines, when you push on these lines does it take more steel?

I don't know tbf. But I know that burning and flaring metals aren't the only options, you can burn a bit more than normal but not flare, and burn less than normal. So I suspect that burning steel/iron a little reveals lines, but burning it normally pushes/pulls on them. I can be very wrong here, and you just burn them with normal strength to both see the lines and push/pull on metals.

Spoiler

Seonid

Is the level of burning a continuous distribution, can I burn 0.1 level of steel all the way up to flaring? Or is it just I burn or I flare?

Brandon Sanderson

The more skilled you are, the more you have the ability to moderate that. For most people it is burn or flare. But you can kind of burn up to a flare, does that make sense? Going below is really hard.

Seonid

Can you push a flare?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

 

22 minutes ago, DoomslugTD said:

Second, I have heard contradicting things on this, does the weight of the allomancer effect the strength of the push at all?

Yes it does, from Coppermind: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Steel

Quote

There are two general rules for Steelpushing, which also apply to Ironpulling, its paired opposite. The first rule is that the strength of your push is roughly proportional to your physical weight. This means that larger Allomancers can generally Steelpush and Ironpull more powerfully than a smaller counterpart.

 

25 minutes ago, DoomslugTD said:

Third, in the books it mentions that larger objects have larger lines pointing to them, and are easier to detect from further away, does this mean you can push harder on these large objects. At a longer range?

You won't push harder on them, because your weight is more important. I also don't thing that range would change, because it should depend solely on your Allomantic strength (Vin vs Zane fight in WoA, Zane was pushing of the coin that was invisible to Vin via steelsight, because Zane had a hemalurgic spike giving him stronger A-steel, thus his range increased).

 

No idea about the amount of metal being burned to push heavier things. I don't think there is even answer to this, I can't find any. Generally your burn rate determinants how much metal you burn, you can burn normally, or flare it, gaining more power, but losing metal faster. As per WoB, you can burn in between etc. I think that heavier object requires you to push on them for a longer period of time (assuming normal burn rate), so you would lose more metal, but that's only because of time you spent pushing it. 

[DoomslugTD]

Thank you! That clears up a lot of things, would you have any idea if pushing on multiple items once splits the force of you push between them all or just applies the force equally to all (if the second one is the case, does that mean you could get more net force out of pushing multiple objects at a time) 

[Trusk'our he/him]

6 minutes ago, DoomslugTD said:

Thank you! That clears up a lot of things, would you have any idea if pushing on multiple items once splits the force of you push between them all or just applies the force equally to all (if the second one is the case, does that mean you could get more net force out of pushing multiple objects at a time) 

I think that it depends on what angle you push on them; if you have two pieces of metal on opposite sides of you, you can use them to leverage each other, use their weight to help push off the other one. However, your own weight and Allomantic power will still matter; you can't knock down two skyscrapers by pushing on both while in between them both.

I don't know if you can push with the same strength against multiple pieces of metal at once, but I don't think that you can get energy for free- the Cosmere follows the laws of conservation- so if you push on a dozen coins at once, you're total pushing power is likely going to be divvied up a bit (though the force of your weight won't, I believe).

[alder24]

19 minutes ago, DoomslugTD said:

Thank you! That clears up a lot of things, would you have any idea if pushing on multiple items once splits the force of you push between them all or just applies the force equally to all (if the second one is the case, does that mean you could get more net force out of pushing multiple objects at a time) 

I don't think there is any division in power, when pushing on multiple objects at once. In Era 1 there were a lot of times when Mistborn or Coinshot were pushing on whole pouches of coins or multiple coins at once, sometimes from greater range, and it was never said that they are weaker, or traveling closer, slower, or less dangerous in any way. Not to mention Vin/Elend using horseshoes or metal tract to Luthadel. Therefore I think it's very much certain that when pushing multiple objects at once, every object is pushed with force, that depends only on the object's mass, Coinshot's mass and distance between them, the number of objects that are being pushed at once doesn't matter.

Which makes sense, because Kelsier was pushing on dozens of different objects at once during his fight with Inquisitor, if that would make his individual push weaker, he wouldn't be able to do what he did.

[DoomslugTD]

So effectivly by pushing on multiple items you can get more bang for your buck (more force per steel used) then pushing on individual objects, though im guessing this is balanced by it taking more skill to push on multiple objects at once 

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, DoomslugTD said:

So effectivly by pushing on multiple items you can get more bang for your buck (more force per steel used) then pushing on individual objects, though im guessing this is balanced by it taking more skill to push on multiple objects at once 

Well, here we are, back to what we don't know. Maybe, or maybe each metal you're pushing on makes you burn more steel? No idea.

[Quantus he/him]

17 hours ago, DoomslugTD said:

So effectivly by pushing on multiple items you can get more bang for your buck (more force per steel used) then pushing on individual objects, though im guessing this is balanced by it taking more skill to push on multiple objects at once 

Looking at the most basic example of Floating over an Anchor, it's known that you can get more force (or rather reach equilibrium at a higher altitude) with a more Massive anchor, so pushing on multiple objects (all the coins in the purse, etc) will have that much increase due to more Mass rather than any gains from separate Pushes.  Separate pushes would qualitatively be a different things since it would allow two different vectors of Force (different direction or different target point, etc).  But we have so little information on the relative Burn Rates that we cant say how the actual Investiture Balance will fall out.  Maybe we'll know once it gets more mechanized and thus standardized, rather than being so varied by the individual.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Quantus

[StanLemon]

Brandon has made a comment that Steel/Iron burn quickly but Allomancers generally  don't notice because they aren't Pushing all the time. This implies to me that burning it for the blue lines is slow but burns faster when actually Pushing/Pulling. This would be in line with his comment about burn rate being tied to how much work the Investiture is doing. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

The longest lasting of the Allomantic metals is actually copper, which is used by Smokers to hide Allomancy. Tin is second, however. Steel and Iron are actually rather quick, but since they're generally used in bursts, it's hard to notice. Both brass and zinc are medium, as is bronze. Pewter burns the fastest of the basic eight, though atium and gold both burn faster than it does.

In my mind, it's related to how much 'work' the metal has to do. That's why pewter, steel, and iron burn so quickly. A lot of weight and power is getting thrown around, while copper only has to do something simple. However, I never really set any of these things hard-fast.

And, only atium is really all that rare. Because of the value of the metals, the noble houses expended a lot of resources finding and exploiting mines to produce the metals. This resulted in a slightly higher value for most of them as opposed to our world, but not really noticeably so, because Allomancers really don't need that much metal. Even fast burning metals, like pewter, are generally only swallowed in very small amounts. (i.e. A small bit goes a long way.)

TWG Posts (July 31, 2006)

As to your second question. Weight matters, but it isn't the determining factor for strength of Pushes/Pulls exactly. Think of the blue line as a force acting equally on both the Allomancer and the metal. When a Coinshot Pushes, the force is Pushing against the Allomancer and metal identically. Per Newton's 3rd law, any action has an equal and opposite reaction. This leads to a greater amount of net force being applied to the lighter object which then moves away from the heavier object.

As far as your third question goes, I personally think that it doesn't require burning any more Steel or Iron. The greater mass of the metal seems to naturally translate to thicker blue lines that can be seen at greater distances. In effect a Coinshot would be Pushing harder off of it, but that's more of a consequence of the greater net force acting on the Coinshot 

[Treamayne]

18 hours ago, DoomslugTD said:

I was wondering something, I have always found the mecahnics of steel pushing somewhat vauge when I read, so I wanted to ask a couple questions. First, when you are burning steel you can see the blue lines, when you push on these lines does it take more steel? if not, can you just push on a ton of different objects to create a higher total net force out of a small amount of steel? Second, I have heard contradicting things on this, does the weight of the allomancer effect the strength of the push at all? if so does it just make the push stronger for the same amount of steel, or does it allow you to use more steel to push harder? Third, in the books it mentions that larger objects have larger lines pointing to them, and are easier to detect from further away, does this mean you can push harder on these large objects. At a longer range? and if so does this require a greater amount of steel, or does it just become more effeciant? Thank you!

17 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't know tbf. But I know that burning and flaring metals aren't the only options, you can burn a bit more than normal but not flare, and burn less than normal. So I suspect that burning steel/iron a little reveals lines, but burning it normally pushes/pulls on them. I can be very wrong here, and you just burn them with normal strength to both see the lines and push/pull on metals.

Yes it does, from Coppermind: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Steel

Quote

The first rule is that the strength of your push is roughly proportional to your physical weight.

 

I'm pretty sure this is a case where the Coppermind is wrong. You'll notice that "analysis" doesn't have any attribution. It is also directly contradicted by the story:

Spoiler

HoA Ch 3:

Quote

Elend flipped a coin into the air. A single, sparkling bit of copper spun through the flakes of ash. The Inquisitor saw this, and smiled again, obviously anticipating Elend’s Push. It assumed that its weight would transfer through the coin, then hit Elend’s weight, since Elend would be Pushing as well. Two Allomancers of near-similar weight, shoving against each other. They would both be thrown back—the Inquisitor to attack Vin, Elend into a pile of koloss.

Except, the Inquisitor didn’t anticipate Elend’s Allomantic strength. How could it? Elend did stumble, but the Inquisitor was thrown away with a sudden, violent Push.

He’s so powerful! Vin thought, watching the surprised Inquisitor fall.

 

14 hours ago, StanLemon said:

As to your second question. Weight matters, but it isn't the determining factor for strength of Pushes/Pulls exactly. Think of the blue line as a force acting equally on both the Allomancer and the metal. When a Coinshot Pushes, the force is Pushing against the Allomancer and metal identically. Per Newton's 3rd law, any action has an equal and opposite reaction. This leads to a greater amount of net force being applied to the lighter object which then moves away from the heavier object.

^This^
Allomantic Strength is a combination of lineage (closeness to "Lerasium" level power), multiplicative factors (Allomancy enhanced with matching Hemalurgy like Vin's Bronze - or - multiple Hemalurgy sources such as all Inquisitors having at least doubles A-Steel from the paired eye spikes [and possibly more if they were a Misting/Mistborn with A-Steel before being spiked]) and distance (steel/iron lines are thicker for larger sources and because the rule of force/distance you can push or pull on them from farther away but at the "zenith" the force is balanced and you neither move nor fall - as seen in TFE when Vin is learning to push at Luthadel's wall).

So, when you push your "Allomantic strength" is the amount of force generated and the laws of physics (weight) determine what moves, how much and how quickly.

[DoomslugTD]

On 4/19/2023 at 4:19 AM, Treamayne said:

I'm pretty sure this is a case where the Coppermind is wrong. You'll notice that "analysis" doesn't have any attribution. It is also directly contradicted by the story:

  Reveal hidden contents

HoA Ch 3:

 

^This^
Allomantic Strength is a combination of lineage (closeness to "Lerasium" level power), multiplicative factors (Allomancy enhanced with matching Hemalurgy like Vin's Bronze - or - multiple Hemalurgy sources such as all Inquisitors having at least doubles A-Steel from the paired eye spikes [and possibly more if they were a Misting/Mistborn with A-Steel before being spiked]) and distance (steel/iron lines are thicker for larger sources and because the rule of force/distance you can push or pull on them from farther away but at the "zenith" the force is balanced and you neither move nor fall - as seen in TFE when Vin is learning to push at Luthadel's wall).

So, when you push your "Allomantic strength" is the amount of force generated and the laws of physics (weight) determine what moves, how much and how quickly.

Sorry if this is considered Post Necromancy, I dont quite unerstand what counts and what doesn't at this point. So what you are saying is that the force does not depend on your mass or the metals mass, but because the force will move you slower you remain close to the metal for longer, thus generating more total force against the metal? Also for larger pieces of metal, the range is increased, but the force when closer is not? I feel like that implies a discontinous cut off for steelpushing (which has a few problems to do with how the motion of steelpushing is portrayed in the books.)

Lastly, if you have greater mass the object you are pushing won't experience any more force for a given period of time at a given distance (For example: over a period of 1 second while maintaing 5 meters of distance) as Newtons 3rd law states that there is an equal and opposite force, meaning no matter the mass of either of the objects they will experience the same newtons of force. Larger objects do however move slower when pushed with the same amount of force, meaning that two large objects that are pushing eachother will stay closer together for longer, which due to the nature of steelpushing means that in most situations more force would be applied to an object over the whole duration of the push as they are closer for longer. Do keep in mind this does not mean that at any given distance the force you apply to the object would be greater, just that you would apply your higher beggining force for longer. (This defenitely gives some form of explenation that helps support the force of a steelpush not being proportional to the mass of the user, but it has its faults, like often in the books when wax gets heavier he is shown to be more exerting more force at a given distance then when he was lighter, which that previous explenation can not account for. If you want to do a thought experiment for this, the effect of being super heavy without mass effecting the force of the steelpush is effectivly the same as if you had a wall behind you and you steelpushed on something, which almost everyone would agree would not produce the building destorying results wax got in the books when being heavier.)

Sorry if this is hard to understand, I want to get really technical with the math, but that might get a little intense. If you would like a more math heavy to approach to steelpushing I made a new post recently Potential physics equation for steelpushing - Mistborn - 17th Shard, the Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite

 

[Treamayne]

if you want math-heavy, you should probably check out Dr.Physics' post(s). . . 

4 hours ago, DoomslugTD said:

Lastly, if you have greater mass the object you are pushing won't experience any more force for a given period of time at a given distance (For example: over a period of 1 second while maintaing 5 meters of distance) as Newtons 3rd law states that there is an equal and opposite force, meaning no matter the mass of either of the objects they will experience the same newtons of force. Larger objects do, however, move slower when pushed with the same amount of force, meaning that two large objects that are pushing each other will stay closer together for longer, which due to the nature of steelpushing means that in most situations more force would be applied to an object over the whole duration of the push as they are closer for longer.

Do keep in mind this does not mean that at any given distance the force you apply to the object would be greater, just that you would apply your higher beginning force for longer. (This defenitely gives some form of explination that helps support the force of a steelpush not being proportional to the mass of the user, but it has its faults, like often in the books when wax gets heavier he is shown to be more exerting more force at a given distance then when he was lighter, which that previous explenation can not account for.

If you want to do a thought experiment for this, the effect of being super heavy without mass effecting the force of the steelpush is effectivly the same as if you had a wall behind you and you steelpushed on something, which almost everyone would agree would not produce the building destorying results wax got in the books when being heavier.)

All I was trying to say is that Object Mass is not the only factor. My layman's understanding is that Allomantic Force (F) is roughly equal to Allomancer's Mass (M) amended by Allomantic Strength (S) and Push Distance (D):

F=D(S(M))

All numbers Notional - for example only - where:
- Distance of 1 is right next to the allomancer and 0.01 is the furthest they can maintain the push
- Base Strength is 1 for a Misting or mistborn during Vin's time when no factors are involved

• Basic Coinshot shooting a coin in-hand: F=1(1(M)) - this is the common understanding
• Hemalurgist with no prior Allomancy and a single Spike, same scenario: F=1(0.9(M)) - as per the law of Hemalurgic Decay (decay increased if spike is not immersed in blood when outside of the body, there is always a non-zero amount of decay because that is how hemalurgy works, but any use other than body-to-body will increase that decay)
  • Hemalurgist, as above, with spike that had not gone body-to-body: F=1(0.5(M)) - as per law of Hemalurgic Decay 
• Lerasium Mistborn, same scenario: F=1(2(M)) - due to higher base allomantic strength
• Inquisitor Mistborn, single spike, Same Scenario: F=1(1.9(M)) - Due to stacked abilities through hemalurgy minus hemalurgic decay
• Vin, as shown her first time steelpushing over the Luthadel Wall: F=0.01(1(M)) - where this equation for a vertical steelpush would top out at the foece of Gravity, making her hover at the apex of her maximum steelpush distance

I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say - which is simply that while Allomancer's weight is the primary factor, it is not the only factor because the force exerted also has to account for both distance and amended Allomantic Strength. Now, if each F is burning one mole of Steel per second (again, notional example) then Flaring may be expressed as a component of how much fuel is being used - with Duralumin expressed as consuming all available fuel at once:

Total Force = Burn(Force) | Ft = B(D(S(M)))

Like I said, my perspecitive is just a layman's understanding based on books and WoBs. Actual Physicists (like linked above) get into more details and weeds.

Hope that helps. 

 

 

[DoomslugTD]

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

if you want math-heavy, you should probably check out Dr.Physics' post(s). . . 

All I was trying to say is that Object Mass is not the only factor. My layman's understanding is that Allomantic Force (F) is roughly equal to Allomancer's Mass (M) amended by Allomantic Strength (S) and Push Distance (D):

F=D(S(M))

All numbers Notional - for example only - where:
- Distance of 1 is right next to the allomancer and 0.01 is the furthest they can maintain the push
- Base Strength is 1 for a Misting or mistborn during Vin's time when no factors are involved

• Basic Coinshot shooting a coin in-hand: F=1(1(M)) - this is the common understanding
• Hemalurgist with no prior Allomancy and a single Spike, same scenario: F=1(0.9(M)) - as per the law of Hemalurgic Decay (decay increased if spike is not immersed in blood when outside of the body, there is always a non-zero amount of decay because that is how hemalurgy works, but any use other than body-to-body will increase that decay)
  • Hemalurgist, as above, with spike that had not gone body-to-body: F=1(0.5(M)) - as per law of Hemalurgic Decay 
• Lerasium Mistborn, same scenario: F=1(2(M)) - due to higher base allomantic strength
• Inquisitor Mistborn, single spike, Same Scenario: F=1(1.9(M)) - Due to stacked abilities through hemalurgy minus hemalurgic decay
• Vin, as shown her first time steelpushing over the Luthadel Wall: F=0.01(1(M)) - where this equation for a vertical steelpush would top out at the foece of Gravity, making her hover at the apex of her maximum steelpush distance

I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say - which is simply that while Allomancer's weight is the primary factor, it is not the only factor because the force exerted also has to account for both distance and amended Allomantic Strength. Now, if each F is burning one mole of Steel per second (again, notional example) then Flaring may be expressed as a component of how much fuel is being used - with Duralumin expressed as consuming all available fuel at once:

Total Force = Burn(Force) | Ft = B(D(S(M)))

Like I said, my perspecitive is just a layman's understanding based on books and WoBs. Actual Physicists (like linked above) get into more details and weeds.

Hope that helps. 

 

 

Ok, I think I got it thanks! So your view is that the force of the push is dependent on the mass of the user? If thats the case I agree from what I know, I must have misunderstood what you were saying before. Is there any widely agreed upon stance for if the mass of the metal you are pushing on effects the strength of the push? 

[Treamayne]

15 minutes ago, DoomslugTD said:

Ok, I think I got it thanks! So your view is that the force of the push is dependent on the mass of the user? If thats the case I agree from what I know, I must have misunderstood what you were saying before. Is there any widely agreed upon stance for if the mass of the metal you are pushing on effects the strength of the push? 

As far as I know, it only factors in as much as Newton Third Law says it should - determining which side of the equation moves, and how much.

[DoomslugTD]

35 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

As far as I know, it only factors in as much as Newton Third Law says it should - determining which side of the equation moves, and how much.

Well it does definetely effect it in that way as it is a physics system (somewhat) but with all the examples we have of heavier people pushing harder it feels weird that mass not does not play into the strength of the actual push. The only way inertia (the way mass makes objects harder to move) effects the system is by making you stay closer to the metal for longer therefore producing more net force over the duration of the push. It would not however effect the amount of force you genereate "per second" (technically not how force works) at a given distance. From examples in the books it definitely feels like heavier people produce more force "per second" at a given distance, especially when we give the example of Wax leveling a building. If it were just because of inertia, you could get an identical (even more effective) outcome by bracing yourself against a wall by pushing, as you are effectively giving yourself the inertia of the wall and the entire earth depending on how strong the fondations are, although you would likely be squished (Depending on how the force of a steelpush is distributed across your body). As a final example, if the force of a push was not dependent on mass, heavier mistborn would not be able to "hang" as high when pushing up into the sky, as the force of gravity is stronger on heavier people, but the steelpushing force counteracting it would not be. I dont believe a height difference like this is mentioned in the books, which feels odd if it is the case. 

Edited August 28 by DoomslugTD

[Treamayne]

51 minutes ago, DoomslugTD said:

Well it does definetely effect it in that way as it is a physics system (somewhat) but with all the examples we have of heavier people pushing harder it feels weird that mass not does not play into the strength of the actual push.

Okay, I am officially confused. Just to recap and make sure I understand:

Spoiler

1 hour ago, DoomslugTD said:

Is there any widely agreed upon stance for if the mass of the metal you are pushing on effects the strength of the push? 

 

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

As far as I know, it only factors in as much as Newton Third Law says it should - determining which side of the equation moves, and how much.

How do these two comments circle back to the mass of the Allomancer?

 

[DoomslugTD]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

How do these two comments circle back to the mass of the Allomancer?

Sorry, I misinterpreted, I thought you were saying both the mass of the allowanced and the metal only affect the system according to Newtons 3rd law, not just the metal. My bad!

If the mass of the metal only effects the system through Newtons 3rd law, why can steelpushers push larger metal things from further then smaller metal things? 

Thanks!

[Treamayne]

9 hours ago, DoomslugTD said:

If the mass of the metal only effects the system through Newtons 3rd law, why can steelpushers push larger metal things from further then smaller metal things? 

Because the Blue lines represent Connection (The Allomancer is Connecting to the metal object to apply investiture to it and make an effect - also seen in RoW when Dalinar glimpses Nale's Connections to the other Heralds - it's a form of limited Spiritual Realm sight, related to Shadows in the Temporal Metals (Atium, Malatium, Gold, Electrum)). The way the MoI functions is that proximity and target size determine when a metal can be Connected (larger items can be Connected from further away). Presumably (this is opinion) this is at least partially because if proximity not was a factor, the metal would be worthless (seeing far too many possible connections to ever pick any single item from the mess) - but also likely due to how limited the allomancer would be in processing that much information. In-World it is likely (opinion again) because the glimpse of the SR Connections is so small and brief that only nearby items can be glimpsed. 

What we do not yet know is why these connections appear blue (especially when Preservation's color is White) and why Dalinar's visual of person-to-person connections was white (while Honor's color is Blue). Many theorize that each type of Connection will have a color (so seeing a being-to-Spren bond would be a different color than the being-to-being bond Dalinar saw, or the being-to-metal bond allomancers see. Possibly Awakener-to-Awakened Construct would be a fourth color, etc.)

RoW:

Spoiler

Ch 47:

Quote

The vision faded and Nale lurched away from Dalinar, gasping, his eyes wide. He left a line of light stretching between him and Dalinar.

Bondsmith, the Stormfather said in Dalinar’s mind. You forged a brief Connection with him. What did you see?

“His past, I think,” Dalinar whispered. “And now…”

Nale scratched at his head, and Dalinar saw a skeletal figure overlapping him. Like the echo of light that followed Szeth, only worn, dim. Dalinar stepped forward, walking among his stunned bodyguards, noting eight lines of light extending from Nale into the distance.

“I see the Oathpact, I think,” Dalinar said. “The thing that bound them together and made them capable of holding the enemy in Damnation.”

A cage, forged of their spirits, the Stormfather said in his mind. It was broken. Even before Jezrien’s death, they shattered it by what they did long ago.

“No, only one line of it is completely broken. The rest are there, but weak, impotent.” Dalinar pointed to one line, bright and powerful. “Except one. Still vibrant.”

Nale looked up at him, then ripped free of the line of light Connecting him to Dalinar and threw himself off the platform. 

Ch 66:

Quote

Dalinar touched his finger to the young soldier’s forehead, then closed his eyes and concentrated.

He could see something extending from the soldier, radiating into the darkness. Pure white lines, thin as a hair. Some moved, though one end remained affixed to the central point: the place where Dalinar’s finger touched the soldier’s skin.

“I see them,” he whispered. “Finally.”

The Stormfather rumbled in the back of his mind. I was not certain it could be done, he said. The power of Bondsmiths was tempered by Honor, for the good of all. Ever since the destruction of Ashyn.

“How did you know about this ability?” Dalinar said, eyes still closed.

I heard it described before I fully lived. Melishi saw these lines.

“The last Bondsmith,” Dalinar said. “Before the Recreance.”

The same. Honor was dying, possibly mad.

“What can I do with these?” Dalinar asked.

I don’t know. You see the Connections all people have: to others, to spren, to time and reality itself. Everything is Connected, Dalinar, by a vast web of interactions, passions, thoughts, fates.

 

A sufficiently practiced Coinshot or Lurcher could learn to gain information through this connection, such as type of metal. WoB:

Spoiler

Titan Arum

Can iron/steelsight lines be used to identify specific metals? If yes, for only savants?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible. Not just savants.

General Signed Books 2016 (Dec. 23, 2016)

Edit - Shower Thoughts:

What if the Push equation is split before some factors apply? I don't know how to explain it well (Programmer and Cybersecurity - not Physicist), but I will try.

The Other Wiki:

Spoiler

In Newtonian mechanics, if two bodies have momenta p 1 and p 2 respectively, then the total momentum of the pair is p = p 1 + p 2 , and the rate of change of p is  By Newton's second law, the first term is the total force upon the first body, and the second term is the total force upon the second body. If the two bodies are isolated from outside influences, the only force upon the first body can be that from the second, and vice versa. By Newton's third law, these forces have equal magnitude but opposite direction, so they cancel when added, and p is constant. Alternatively, if p is known to be constant, it follows that the forces have equal magnitude and opposite direction.

So, what if some factors (Flaring, Duralumin) affect dp/dt - but other factors (e.g. allomantic stength through Lerasium or hemalurgy) only apply to dp2/dt. That might explain why Vin's flares and Duralumin pushes affected her as much as the object being pushed, but Elend's push-war with the inquisitor was so one-sided. If it was an inquisitor with only one A-Steel spike, it would have been a push match between 0.9 strength against 2 strength multipliers (based on previous notional example).

Edited August 28 by Treamayne
SPAG/Example

[DoomslugTD]

16 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Because the Blue lines represent Connection (The Allomancer is Connecting to the metal object to apply investiture to it and make an effect - also seen in RoW when Dalinar glimpses Nale's Connections to the other Heralds - it's a form of limited Spiritual Realm sight, related to Shadows in the Temporal Metals (Atium, Malatium, Gold, Electrum)). The way the MoI functions is that proximity and target size determine when a metal can be Connected (larger items can be Connected from further away). Presumably (this is opinion) this is at least partially because if proximity not was a factor, the metal would be worthless (seeing far too many possible connections to ever pick any single item from the mess) - but also likely due to how limited the allomancer would be in processing that much information. In-World it is likely (opinion again) because the glimpse of the SR Connections is so small and brief that only nearby items can be glimpsed.

So bigger metals can simply be pushed farther away, but the force you generate from pushing on them is not greater than if you pushed on a smaller metal if you are in range of both? Excuse the math, but does that mean the value of the force function does not depend on the mass of the metal when in range but the force function discontinously cuts off quicker for smaller metals and slower for larger metals. For example if F(d) = 1/(x^2) (From the book it actually cannot equal this, but it's the function representing magnetism which is vaugely similar) you would get the same force at closer ranges regardless of the size of metal, but for a smaller metal the function would cut off at say... 100 meters, but for a larger metal it might cut off at 200 meters, but for those last 100 meters you get out of the big metal you would get a very small force as you are still incredibly far away? Mathmatically you could represent this as F= {x≤f(M): b/(x^2), 0} where M is the mass of the metal and a and b are scaling constants. I was always under the impression it would be more like this F = {x≤f(M): b/((x/f(M))^2), 0}. This equation would mean that if a metals mass doubled its range compared to a "normal" push, that every point within the range of your push would effectively be considered to be half as far away as in a "normal" push. (For example, if your produced 1 newton at 10 meters with a normal push I would expect you to produce 1 newton at 20 meters when pushing with double the range.) This however is just how I always assumed range would be represented and it could likely be the first way instead.

"So, what if some factors (Flaring, Duralumin) affect dp/dt - but other factors (e.g. allomantic stength through Lerasium or hemalurgy) only apply to dp2/dt. That might explain why Vin's flares and Duralumin pushes affected her as much as the object being pushed, but Elend's push-war with the inquisitor was so one-sided. If it was an inquisitor with only one A-Steel spike, it would have been a push match between 0.9 strength against 2 strength multipliers (based on previous notional example)." (Sorry I could not figure out how to quote something in an edit and I did not want to double post)

I would really love that as a system, and it could explain a lot, but it would have a couple big implication around the face that it would break Newtons 3rd law. If you only effect dp2/dt it means you are adding more force to the object you are pushing then to yourself, which means you are not having an equal and opposite reaction anymore, which is a core tenant of the magic system so far. Its not like it could not happen as investiture could defintely be considered an "outside force" on this system, making Newtons 3rd law irrelevent, but so far as we know it has always been indicated that investiture does not unevenly add forces to one side in this way during steelpushes and just acts as a way for the two objects to interact at a distance. (Essentially like physically pushing off something but at a distance.) It would explain some of the discrepencies found in the system, and would allow for some really interesting nuance though, so I like the idea!

 

Edited August 29 by DoomslugTD