Random Twinborn Combos: Go!

[mip67]

54 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Actually, I don't think sun heat is possible... I think the limit is when their brassminds melt and fall off (or even vaporize).

If you could localize which areas heated, you might be able to get hotter, but eventually you would just radiate enough heat to melt your metalminds to slag anyways.

However, the Coppermind mentions "It is difficult, but possible, for a brass Compounder to create so much warmth that they can hurt themselves in the process.", so this isn't a viable strategy anyways.

Edited May 2, 2023 by mip67

[Trusk'our he/him]

9 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Name: Inferno or Wildfire would be an apt description, but something like Embertongue would summarize their twinborn-ness.

Embertounge does have a nice ring to it and feels thematically appropriate.

9 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

A-Aluminum and F-Gold

So this is going to be an interesting one. A-aluminum does nothing much on its own, but because it’s a twinborn, it creates a resonance. Now, technically Aluminum can cleans spiritual damage if used tactfully and excessively, which does actually combo quite nicely with F-gold.

I won’t go too long on what F-Gold does, as you all know at this point.

Resonance: Well, A-aluminum CAN cleanse the spiritual realm, and F-Gold heals the physical realm according to cognitive identity, so I would thing that it would be naturally hard to corrupt their identity or spirit web. My thought is that a Twinborn of this type would be able to handle an unusual amount of spikes without too much trouble.

Name: Puresoul?

Rating: basically a Bloodmaker but with a slight resonance. 4/10.

Hmm. I would think that the Resonance between A-aluminum and F-gold may allow for the Twinborn to better alter their spiritual ideal to match what they think it should be. They'd still need to tap health from their Goldminds to achieve the desired end result, but I think that healing from Shades or similar infectious forms of Investiture would become more efficient.

It also may be possible that the Twinborn's Spiritweb is naturally more resistant to invasive forms of Investiture, which could help someone resist Emotional Allomancy, or maybe even reduce their weakness to bearing too many Hemalurgic spikes (though it wouldn't be erased).

There probably would be more possible to achieve with the Resonance, but I don't know all the possibilities.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

Based on the aluminum cleansing unwanted effects and impurities, this combo might be more powerful than you think. Cleansing the soul out of savant bad effects - no problem. Spikes? Give me more. Shades on Threnody? Walking straight through them like they're not even there. Because of how it's worded "unwanted" this means that you're changing your spirit web based on your cognitive perception, based on what you're considering to be unwanted, and that is huge. This might be really a good combo, allowing you to change your spiritual ideal to which your body is healing. This could be a way to heal old wounds that are perceived as a part of you, but still are unwanted. I like this one.

Could you clarify what you mean when talking about Hemalurgic spikes? I agree that the weakness to external sources of Investiture by bearing four or more may be lessened, but I don't know if that's what you mean.

As for Shades, I think you'd still need to tap F-gold, though the process would likely be easier due to the Twinborn's Resonance.

Recovering from old wounds may be easier to do, but Wayne himself could do so without this hypothetical Resonance, so I don't know that this particular aspect would be too useful.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80/#e5306

Questioner

Wayne's ability to heal himself, obviously doesn't mimic his natural ability because he can regrow fingers. So if he lost a limb, could he regrow the--just heal it roughly until he stored up enough Health and then regrow the limb at a later time? Does it have to be an instantaneous--

Brandon Sanderson

No, he could totally get that back.

Questioner

And if say somebody was born with an extra finger, could they cut that off, heal that up and have a whole fingers-worth of Health saved?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how they view themselves. Healing in the cosmere is based on replacing-- returning you to the state you view as your natural state... Almost every cosmere magic is going to work that way, unless-- There’s certain ones that-- Yeah almost everyone is going to work that way.

 

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Could you clarify what you mean when talking about Hemalurgic spikes? I agree that the weakness to external sources of Investiture by bearing four or more may be lessened, but I don't know if that's what you mean.

Three different things, First is as a donor you can heal the damage done to you better than anybody else. Second, as a recipient, you can remove your spikes and fill holes in your soul left by them. Thirdly, more speculative, as a recipient with spikes in you, you can heal the edges of the cracks made by spikes so they would "merge" better with spikes, lessening cracks to the bare minimum required. The soul held in the spike would be fitted perfectly into your spiritweb with minimal damage.

10 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

As for Shades, I think you'd still need to tap F-gold, though the process would likely be easier due to the Twinborn's Resonance.

No you don't. Look again at that WoB - aluminum would work better than gold: "negating and sucking out, so that's probably safer".

10 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Recovering from old wounds may be easier to do, but Wayne himself could do so without this hypothetical Resonance, so I don't know that this particular aspect would be too useful.

The WoB is not about old wounds, which you perceive as a part of yourself. Wayne would not be able to heal the wound he thinks it's a part of him (even if he doesn't want that)- like a certain somebody in Cosmere (two somebody in the Crabworld).  Wayne can heal a missing finger and fresh wounds (he mentioned in AoL that he hates growing back missing fingers). What I propose with this Twinborn combination, is that it would be much simpler for him to heal old wounds, which even he perceives as a part of him, just by simply not wanting to have them - cleansing unwanted parts of his spirit web.

[Trusk'our he/him]

35 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Three different things, First is as a donor you can heal the damage done to you better than anybody else. Second, as a recipient, you can remove your spikes and fill holes in your soul left by them. Thirdly, more speculative, as a recipient with spikes in you, you can heal the edges of the cracks made by spikes so they would "merge" better with spikes, lessening cracks to the bare minimum required. The soul held in the spike would be fitted perfectly into your spiritweb with minimal damage.

Those are some good ideas. I like them 

I don't think that there usually is a lot of lingering damage after you remove a Hemalurgic spike though, at least, not more than what a Spiritweb would normally have (i.e., you might be "cracked" a bit, but things like Ruin and Allomancers still can't get inside you), so I don't know if it would be necessary to have the Twinborn Resonance for that part.

39 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No you don't. Look again at that WoB - aluminum would work better than gold: "negating and sucking out, so that's probably safer".

I apologize. I meant to say that you either needed to burn aluminum or tap gold to remove a Shade's effects- I had falsely assumed that you were saying that the Twinborn would be straight up immune to Shades because of their Resonance without any other use of Investiture (that's what I get for jumping around with assumptions ).

43 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The WoB is not about old wounds, which you perceive as a part of yourself. Wayne would not be able to heal the wound he thinks it's a part of him (even if he doesn't want that)- like a certain somebody in Cosmere (two somebody in the Crabworld).  Wayne can heal a missing finger and fresh wounds (he mentioned in AoL that he hates growing back missing fingers). What I propose with this Twinborn combination, is that it would be much simpler for him to heal old wounds, which even he perceives as a part of him, just by simply not wanting to have them - cleansing unwanted parts of his spirit web.

If I'm correct, the questioner did ask whether Wayne would be able to take some damage, than store health and heal it later, to which Brandon said would be possible. 

It could be that Wayne just has a unique perspective on permanent injuries due to his nature of being a Bloodmaker and thus is able to use his F-gold to heal even old wounds. Or Brandon just was answering the first question and missed the second, which is totally possible.

[Koloss17 She/They]

Random Twinborn Combo Day 13:

A-Zinc and F-Steel

Now this is an interesting combo. Is there any amount of synergy between these two?

 

Well, Rioters are nice, as they can subtly (or not so subtly) manipulate emotions. I recently made a post inquiring the differences between soothing and rioting, and the general consensus is that they can do pretty much the same thing, but some actions are easier done by one compared to the other. Still a nice ability, but I don’t think I can distinguish if one is better than another.

 

F-Steel, as previously established, is a really good ability. It makes a lot of things a lot easier, and can be useful in many a situation. It also makes allomantic metals burn faster, and likely make their affects more powerful. Certainly an interesting way to boost the power of metals!

 

Put these two together, and you have a character something like this. You expect them to just be some average rioter, but when you go to fight them, they zoom towards you and mess you up. Then, you’re so busy fighting that you forget that they are also a rioter, and they hit you with a super enhanced pull of your emotions, stunning you for just enough time for them to stab you at Mach 2. 
 

Could be quite the Twinborn to see in action, and I would certainly like to witness it in a book.

 

Resonance: Physical speed+enflaming emotions, eh? Sounds like someone that would be a real douche. They probably wouldn’t need to figure out a way to riot their own emotions, as they are already egotistical and overconfident. Do I think that could be a resonance? Maybe! We really don’t know how they work, so a naturally inflated ego could certainly be a resonance.

Name: Hmmm. I actually can’t find a good name. Suggestions would be appreciated!

Rating: could lead to a funky character, and for that, it gets a solid 7.5/10. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

F-Steel, as previously established, is a really good ability. It makes a lot of things a lot easier, and can be useful in many a situation. It also makes allomantic metals burn faster, and likely make their affects more powerful. Certainly an interesting way to boost the power of metals!

Put these two together, and you have a character something like this. You expect them to just be some average rioter, but when you go to fight them, they zoom towards you and mess you up. Then, you’re so busy fighting that you forget that they are also a rioter, and they hit you with a super enhanced pull of your emotions, stunning you for just enough time for them to stab you at Mach 2. 

Yeah, since F-steel increases the speed of burning for your metals it's basically a more controlled version of A-duralumin and you get superspeed.

As a side note, I really love this thread. Some of the Twinborn combos have really let me take a new look at Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Resonances (particularly the A-pewter/F-steel and A-aluminum/F-gold Twinborn combos). Thanks for starting this thread @Koloss17 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

If I'm correct, the questioner did ask whether Wayne would be able to take some damage, than store health and heal it later, to which Brandon said would be possible. 

Yes, but that's not an old wound. Old wound is a wound that you have for so long that you perceive it as a part of yourself. Something that can't be healed unless you change the perception of yourself. SA spoilers:

Spoiler

Kaladin and his scars on his forehead, Rysn and her broken legs. In contrast, Lopen and his arm is the example of an old wound being healed, because he never considered himself to be a one-armed Herdazian, despite all those jokes. Jokes were his coping mechanism.

Simply waiting for health to gather to heal a wound within a week isn't the same.

39 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Random Twinborn Combo Day 13:

A-Zinc and F-Steel

Now this is an interesting combo. Is there any amount of synergy between these two?

 

Well, Rioters are nice, as they can subtly (or not so subtly) manipulate emotions. I recently made a post inquiring the differences between soothing and rioting, and the general consensus is that they can do pretty much the same thing, but some actions are easier done by one compared to the other. Still a nice ability, but I don’t think I can distinguish if one is better than another.

 

F-Steel, as previously established, is a really good ability. It makes a lot of things a lot easier, and can be useful in many a situation. It also makes allomantic metals burn faster, and likely make their affects more powerful. Certainly an interesting way to boost the power of metals!

 

Put these two together, and you have a character something like this. You expect them to just be some average rioter, but when you go to fight them, they zoom towards you and mess you up. Then, you’re so busy fighting that you forget that they are also a rioter, and they hit you with a super enhanced pull of your emotions, stunning you for just enough time for them to stab you at Mach 2. 
 

Could be quite the Twinborn to see in action, and I would certainly like to witness it in a book.

 

Resonance: Physical speed+enflaming emotions, eh? Sounds like someone that would be a real douche. They probably wouldn’t need to figure out a way to riot their own emotions, as they are already egotistical and overconfident. Do I think that could be a resonance? Maybe! We really don’t know how they work, so a naturally inflated ego could certainly be a resonance.

Name: Hmmm. I actually can’t find a good name. Suggestions would be appreciated!

Rating: could lead to a funky character, and for that, it gets a solid 7.5/10. 

Everything with F-steel is just better?  

This Twinborn can have duralumin level emotional allomancy without duralumin. That's quite scary. However, gathering speed is quite a hard process, so he won't be able to do that everytime. But emotions are a very important part of any fight - riot their cowardness and fear when you strike, riot their confidence or it's lack when they're making a mistake, riot their impatience when they keep distance and their caution when they're too close to you. If you're skillful enough with zinc, you can make them play as you want, like a puppeteer. Add to it F-steel and you are a Puppeteer, pulling on strings of people's emotions (my name suggestion).

I don't think you would be able to riot your own emotions. In this case I think the resonance would be naturally faster burn rate of zinc, which means stronger emotional Allomancy.

[Koloss17 She/They]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Yeah, since F-steel increases the speed of burning for your metals it's basically a more controlled version of A-duralumin and you get superspeed.

As a side note, I really love this thread. Some of the Twinborn combos have really let me take a new look at Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Resonances (particularly the A-pewter/F-steel and A-aluminum/F-gold Twinborn combos). Thanks for starting this thread @Koloss17 

Aw, thanks! It’s been fun, but my only concern is that new folks aren’t easily able to respond to older daily combos.

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, but that's not an old wound. Old wound is a wound that you have for so long that you perceive it as a part of yourself. Something that can't be healed unless you change the perception of yourself. SA spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Kaladin and his scars on his forehead, Rysn and her broken legs. In contrast, Lopen and his arm is the example of an old wound being healed, because he never considered himself to be a one-armed Herdazian, despite all those jokes. Jokes were his coping mechanism.

Simply waiting for health to gather to heal a wound within a week isn't the same.

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

I was thinking that Wayne was probably going to be more like Lopen in healing old wounds because he knows and accepts that if he just stores health up for a few weeks he could regrow a lost appendage, hence the reason he could do so; his powers give him a cognitive one-up on others who would recieve Invested healing, such as from the Surge of Regrowth.

That was my take anyway, but admittedly, I could have misinterpreted the WoB.

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Everything with F-steel is just better?  

Basically, yes 

1 hour ago, Koloss17 said:

Aw, thanks! It’s been fun, but my only concern is that new folks aren’t easily able to respond to older daily combos.

Yeah, I could see that happening; I've gone onto long threads before, but have been hesitant to join because I felt I'd be intruding or be bringing back up a dead part of a conversation. This actually happened with me on @Frustration's thread on the Who would win, the Ultimate Cosmere free for all thread in the ToES and TLM spoiler forum.

I eventually did end up posting my thoughts regarding the 1st page on the 8th page of the thread, and it turned out great!

So if anybody who reads this wants to post some ideas on some older parts of this thread and the Twinborn combos, go ahead! We'd be more than happy to hear them 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

4 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Name: Hmmm. I actually can’t find a good name. Suggestions would be appreciated!

Quicktalker?

[Koloss17 She/They]

25 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Quicktalker?

Oooh that’s a good one!

[Koloss17 She/They]

Random Twinborn Combo Day 14:

A-Gold and F-Iron

Interesting, interesting…

Allomantic Gold is quite the funky metal, as it can do quite a lot. Very few folks actually explore the capabilities, as using it is really weird. You basically get one alternate version of yourself, who you can think thoughts of and see through the eyes of. This allowes for an extra consciousness and pair of eyes, with the ability to see things in a different light. Now, you don’t really get to choose who you get, as it is sort of chosen for you, but it is almost always relevant. 
 

Now theoretically, this could allow you to adopt mannerisms and instincts that you wouldn’t normally have, which is pretty cool. The main downside, of course, is that it’s really weird.

 

Then there’s F-Iron. We saw a lot of it in the books, but it was mostly used in context of A-Steel. Now, it seems to be quite the easy metal to store, as being lighter is not much of an issue. My main thought of the usefulness of it is in a fight, where your comparative weight matters. I’m certain there are other uses to it, but that’s the most obvious one.

Together, you don’t get much synergy. You have a funky Allomantic power that most folks are scared to touch, and a useful, but kind of situational Feruchemantic ability. Interesting, but not wildly good.

Resonance: Yet another combination that I have no clue about the Resonance of. Ideas much appreciated!

Rating: 3/10. Better than the individual parts, but that’s it (unless I missed something).

[Trusk'our he/him]

35 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Then there’s F-Iron. We saw a lot of it in the books, but it was mostly used in context of A-Steel. Now, it seems to be quite the easy metal to store, as being lighter is not much of an issue. My main thought of the usefulness of it is in a fight, where your comparative weight matters. I’m certain there are other uses to it, but that’s the most obvious one.

The ideas that come to mind for F-iron are;

(1) slowing your fall by reducing your weight,

(2) reducing your weight to make it slightly easier to climb (Wax mentions in BoM that it's slightly easier to climb a ladder when storing weight) and to be able to climb up more delicate structures without fear of breaking them,

(3) combat wise increasing your weight to punch harder (may require practice to fully utilize the extra weight), falling on your opponent in a fight while increasing your weight to pin them or crush them (Skimmers would make GREAT wrestlers), making yourself lighter on your feet (Wax mentions this in AoL, if I'm correct), and making yourself heavier to resist being moved by your opponent (also Wax, AoL with Miles).

Edited May 4, 2023 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Koloss17 said:

Random Twinborn Combo Day 14:

A-Gold and F-Iron

Interesting, interesting…

Allomantic Gold is quite the funky metal, as it can do quite a lot. Very few folks actually explore the capabilities, as using it is really weird. You basically get one alternate version of yourself, who you can think thoughts of and see through the eyes of. This allowes for an extra consciousness and pair of eyes, with the ability to see things in a different light. Now, you don’t really get to choose who you get, as it is sort of chosen for you, but it is almost always relevant. 
 

Now theoretically, this could allow you to adopt mannerisms and instincts that you wouldn’t normally have, which is pretty cool. The main downside, of course, is that it’s really weird.

 

Then there’s F-Iron. We saw a lot of it in the books, but it was mostly used in context of A-Steel. Now, it seems to be quite the easy metal to store, as being lighter is not much of an issue. My main thought of the usefulness of it is in a fight, where your comparative weight matters. I’m certain there are other uses to it, but that’s the most obvious one.

Together, you don’t get much synergy. You have a funky Allomantic power that most folks are scared to touch, and a useful, but kind of situational Feruchemantic ability. Interesting, but not wildly good.

Resonance: Yet another combination that I have no clue about the Resonance of. Ideas much appreciated!

Rating: 3/10. Better than the individual parts, but that’s it (unless I missed something).

Is that the most useless combination so far? One makes you see and feel your past/alternate present, the other makes you fall from heights without any injury. Together you can watch your alternate self forgetting to store his mass when falling, smashing into the ground and experiencing your own death with A-gold. Fun.

 

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

(3) combat wise increasing your weight to punch harder (may require practice to fully utilize the extra weight),

Don't start this controversial topic again  

[Koloss17 She/They]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Is that the most useless combination so far?

“So far” is the key word there. I can certainly think of more useless combos. But as chance has it, we haven’t run into the those yet!

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

“So far” is the key word there. I can certainly think of more useless combos. But as chance has it, we haven’t run into the those yet!

Oh yes, me too (A-aluminum + F-electrum - you will be very determined to burn away your determination).

[Koloss17 She/They]

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Oh yes, me too (A-aluminum + F-electrum - you will be very determined to burn away your determination).

I could never have it in my heart to give any twinborn combo a 0, but that would be getting it quite close.

[Trusk'our he/him]

53 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Oh yes, me too (A-aluminum + F-electrum - you will be very determined to burn away your determination).

Heh, lol 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Don't start this controversial topic again  

Did someone make a thread on F-iron making punching better and it turning into a twelve-page conflict and I somehow miss it? 

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Did someone make a thread on F-iron making punching better and it turning into a twelve-page conflict and I somehow miss it? 

No, but we've turned multiple versus threads into several pages long disputes if F-iron makes you punch harder or not. Probably in most "Wax vs ..." or "Fullborn vs ..." threads  

[Trusk'our he/him]

Just now, alder24 said:

No, but we've turned multiple versus threads into several pages long disputes if F-iron makes you punch harder or not. Probably in most "Wax vs ..." or "Fullborn vs ..." threads  

You know, I've actually wanted to do some research on the mechanics of punching ever since I did that one post one the size of Hemalurgic spikes and how much of an Invested charge they could hold (math is actually fun- at least, when it's being used for something you like).

Though, due to Feruchemy's wackness with physics (F-steel not increasing your hitting power, F-iron not making you bulletproof, etc.), it probably wouldn't be reliable anyway.

You could just pretend to hit them, but in reality your just falling strategically- though that's not really the same thing, is it?

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Trusk'our said:

You know, I've actually wanted to do some research on the mechanics of punching ever since I did that one post one the size of Hemalurgic spikes and how much of an Invested charge they could hold (math is actually fun- at least, when it's being used for something you like).

Though, due to Feruchemy's wackness with physics (F-steel not increasing your hitting power, F-iron not making you bulletproof, etc.), it probably wouldn't be reliable anyway.

Just don't involve F-iron in that  

1 minute ago, Trusk'our said:

You could just pretend to hit them, but in reality your just falling strategically- though that's not really the same thing, is it?

I plead the 5th 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

Does your strength decrease if you make yourself lighter with F-Iron or can you super jump? 'Cause if you can, why punch at all when you can just Mario-Jump over your enemy and then make yourself as heavy as a freight train and squish them? Bit messy, sure, but effective.

[alder24]

46 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Does your strength decrease if you make yourself lighter with F-Iron or can you super jump? 'Cause if you can, why punch at all when you can just Mario-Jump over your enemy and then make yourself as heavy as a freight train and squish them? Bit messy, sure, but effective.

What's happening here is really hard to say, the F-iron breaks physics and it doesn't make sense. F-iron stores your mass, but your weight and gravitational acceleration doesn't change. Your strength remains the same (but your strength to mass ratio changes, that's why tapping more iron makes you slower, as you lack strength to move), and so does the force of gravity pulling you down (weight) - that means that you should jump at the same height. But things like inertia, terminal velocity, momentum etc are affected by changing your mass.

I answer with the book - in WoA ch 19 Sazed filled only his ironmind and climbed a tree with ease. And that countered the force of gravity pulling him down - with less mass you have an easier time pulling yourself up and that's what you're proposing should be possible. You should be able to store mass and jump really high, then tap and drop hard on your enemy. But because you're tapping midair, conservation of momentum dictates that increasing your mass will slow you down very much - p=mv (it would be easy to dodge).

This doesn't make sense because if F-iron doesn't store weight but just mass, weight is a force of gravity pulling you down, so what would make sense is that no matter if you're storing or tapping iron, you should have the same trouble with going up. As Sazed proved, that's not the case.

Spoiler

XMikethetrikeX

A question regaurding Feruchemical iron:

So, while Sazed was guarding one of the gates to Luthadel, he tapped weight to compensate, he had to tap pewter as well. Also, when he was climbing a tree, his strength to weght ratio rised, making it easier for him to climb it. Wax doesn't have to do this- when fighting Miles on the train, he's fine without any sort of muscular enhancement, and when he is climbing in the sets base, he notes that he does not make himself lighter because it would simply decrease his weight and strength equally (in contrast to Sazed climbing the tree).

So, is this difference for the same reason people can push/ pull on atium, being the you hadn't fully developed your idea for the cosmere yet? Or is it some other reason?

Brandon Sanderson

Hmm. I think the mistake is more on me writing the Wax scene than in the original. (For him climbing, specifically.) I'll put Peter on this and see if it's a continuity error we want to fix.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Nov. 3, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Phantine

I actually asked Peter Ahlstrom (who tends to handle math and magic system interactions with physics for Team Sanderson) about this a little while ago

A couple of friends and I are discussing if the iron feruchemy causing changes in speed is a retcon (since there's a mention in AoL that "increasing his weight manyfold would not affect his motion"), or if the effect is just more complicated (like only causing an instant change in speed if Wax changes weight while actively pushing on something).

Are you willing to weigh in on that, or is it just something we shouldn't be thinking too hard about?

Thanks

And his response was

I just don't know the answer to this question.

So I personally think the explanation is either 'Brandon thought it would be cooler for shifting your weight to change your velocity, and forgot he had mentioned it a couple times' or 'this is Wax's twinborn perk'. I'm leaning towards the latter, since the person who writes the magic system summaries at the end of the book specifically interrogated Wax about the effects, and mentioned she specifically was interested in his very unusual power combination.

As for the density thing, there is an explicit mention that you appear to get stronger when tapping, but only to the extent that you can still stand up and walk around - you still have more difficulty moving around overall. So (to pull out random numbers), if you're at 200% normal mass, you have 180% normal strength, and at 50% mass you have 60% normal strength. That means Wax habitually going around at 75% weight so he's 'light on his feet' makes sense - even if he's weaker overall, he's proportionally stronger.

The way I personally think about things for bullets or whatever, anything 'inside' the body (where 'inside' is defined in the same way that pushing/pulling metal 'inside' the body uses it) interacts with your body as if it were normal. So tapping iron doesn't cause your ultra-massive blood to be impossible for your heart to pump, but it also doesn't prevent a bullet from passing through your flesh. That seems to be consistent with how it's portrayed in the books.

Brandon Sanderson

Just a note: in the quote of mine above, I was trying (I believe) to find a way for Wax to indicate that weight doesn't influence the rate at which he falls. IE, acceleration in regards to gravity. It's tough, and I made the call (perhaps incorrectly) not to use modern physics terminology in the W&W books. It has been very hard then to explain:

1). Wax changing his weight doesn't change the pull of gravity on him, or the rate at which he falls. 2) He DOES follow the laws of conservation of momentum.

My talking around these things has let me to tie a few paragraphs in knots.

General Reddit 2016 (Feb. 19, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Six

The fight in the ballroom

From the early days of the Mistborn books, I'd been planning how an Allomantic gunfight would go down. I felt it the next evolution in what has been stylistically a big part of these books.

There is a fine line to walk in a lot of these sequences. I've made something of a name for myself in the fantasy world by attempting to mix some scientific reasoning with my magic systems. At the same time, Allomancy was designed precisely with action sequences in mind. I wanted them to be powerful and cinematic—and a cinematic fight sequence is often at odds with realism. (Watch two people who really know what they're doing fight with swords sometime, then watch any fight sequence in a film. Most of the time, the film sequences stray far from what would really happen.)

So, as I said, I walk a line. Sometimes, there are things I just can't do because they violate what I've set up as the rules of the world. Other times, I design the setting and nature of the fight specifically to allow for certain types of cinematic sequences. One thing I like a lot about Wax’s abilities is the power he has to manipulate his weight. There's some realism to what he does—for example, increasing his weight doesn't make him fall more quickly, but it allows him to do some powerful things while falling. Destroying the chandeliers is an example.

At the same time, I acknowledge that the weight manipulation aspect of Feruchemy is one of its more baffling powers, scientifically. Is he changing his mass? If so, he should become more dense, which I don't actually make the case when it plays out in fights. (Otherwise, increasing his weight enough would make him impervious to bullets.) So, if it's not mass manipulation, is it gravity manipulation, like Szeth and Kaladin do? Well, again, not really—as when his weight increases, his strength and ability to uphold that weight increase as well. Beyond that, Wax can't make himself so light that he has no weight at all.

So . . . well, at this point, the ability to explain it scientifically breaks down. I do like what it does, but I have to set its boundaries and stick to them—and accept that some of what's going on is irrational. (And don't get me started on what should really be happening scientifically when Wayne speeds up time.)

Footnote: Brandon has stated that iron Feruchemy works by manipulating the Higgs field.
The Alloy of Law Annotations (March 14, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Does Iron store mass or weight?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The thing is it really does involve mass, but I’m breaking some physics rules, basically. I have to break a number of physics rules in order to make Magic work in the first place. Those whole laws of Thermodynamics, I’m like “You are my bane!” (laughter) But I try to work within the framework, and I have reasonings built up for myself, and some of them have to be kind of arbitrary. But the thing is, it does store mass if you look at how it interacts, but when a Feruchemist punches someone, you’re not having a mass transference of a 1000 pounds transferring the mass into someone else.

So there are a few little tweaks. You can go talk to Peter, because Peter has the actual math. Oh Peter’s back there. Peter is dressed up as Allomancer Jak from the broadsheet. In fact we’re giving some out broadsheets, aren’t we Peter. So when you come through the line, we’re giving out Broadsheets. Please don’t take fifty—I think we might have enough for everybody. The broadsheets are the newspaper from the Alloy of Law time. It’s an inworld newspaper. It’s actually reproduced in the book in four different pages, and we put it together in one big broadsheet.

So anyway, you can talk with him, he’s got more of the math of it. I explained the concept to Peter and he’s better with the actual math, so he said “We’ll figure it out.”

Alloy of Law release party (Nov. 7, 2011)

F-iron stores mass, not weight, but it does change how Skimmer interacts with weight (force) in the same way as he would be storing weight (force) in most cases. But it doesn't change the rate of gravitational acceleration. It also follows conservation of momentum. Make of it whatever you want.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

What's happening here is really hard to say, the F-iron breaks physics and it doesn't make sense. F-iron stores your mass, but your weight and gravitational acceleration doesn't change. Your strength remains the same (but your strength to mass ratio changes, that's why tapping more iron makes you slower, as you lack strength to move), and so does the force of gravity pulling you down (weight) - that means that you should jump at the same height. But things like inertia, terminal velocity, momentum etc are affected by changing your mass.

I answer with the book - in WoA ch 19 Sazed filled only his ironmind and climbed a tree with ease. And that countered the force of gravity pulling him down - with less mass you have an easier time pulling yourself up and that's what you're proposing should be possible. You should be able to store mass and jump really high, then tap and drop hard on your enemy. But because you're tapping midair, conservation of momentum dictates that increasing your mass will slow you down very much - p=mv (it would be easy to dodge).

This doesn't make sense because if F-iron doesn't store weight but just mass, weight is a force of gravity pulling you down, so what would make sense is that no matter if you're storing or tapping iron, you should have the same trouble with going up. As Sazed proved, that's not the case.

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XMikethetrikeX

A question regaurding Feruchemical iron:

So, while Sazed was guarding one of the gates to Luthadel, he tapped weight to compensate, he had to tap pewter as well. Also, when he was climbing a tree, his strength to weght ratio rised, making it easier for him to climb it. Wax doesn't have to do this- when fighting Miles on the train, he's fine without any sort of muscular enhancement, and when he is climbing in the sets base, he notes that he does not make himself lighter because it would simply decrease his weight and strength equally (in contrast to Sazed climbing the tree).

So, is this difference for the same reason people can push/ pull on atium, being the you hadn't fully developed your idea for the cosmere yet? Or is it some other reason?

Brandon Sanderson

Hmm. I think the mistake is more on me writing the Wax scene than in the original. (For him climbing, specifically.) I'll put Peter on this and see if it's a continuity error we want to fix.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Nov. 3, 2018)

 

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Phantine

I actually asked Peter Ahlstrom (who tends to handle math and magic system interactions with physics for Team Sanderson) about this a little while ago

A couple of friends and I are discussing if the iron feruchemy causing changes in speed is a retcon (since there's a mention in AoL that "increasing his weight manyfold would not affect his motion"), or if the effect is just more complicated (like only causing an instant change in speed if Wax changes weight while actively pushing on something).

Are you willing to weigh in on that, or is it just something we shouldn't be thinking too hard about?

Thanks

And his response was

I just don't know the answer to this question.

So I personally think the explanation is either 'Brandon thought it would be cooler for shifting your weight to change your velocity, and forgot he had mentioned it a couple times' or 'this is Wax's twinborn perk'. I'm leaning towards the latter, since the person who writes the magic system summaries at the end of the book specifically interrogated Wax about the effects, and mentioned she specifically was interested in his very unusual power combination.

As for the density thing, there is an explicit mention that you appear to get stronger when tapping, but only to the extent that you can still stand up and walk around - you still have more difficulty moving around overall. So (to pull out random numbers), if you're at 200% normal mass, you have 180% normal strength, and at 50% mass you have 60% normal strength. That means Wax habitually going around at 75% weight so he's 'light on his feet' makes sense - even if he's weaker overall, he's proportionally stronger.

The way I personally think about things for bullets or whatever, anything 'inside' the body (where 'inside' is defined in the same way that pushing/pulling metal 'inside' the body uses it) interacts with your body as if it were normal. So tapping iron doesn't cause your ultra-massive blood to be impossible for your heart to pump, but it also doesn't prevent a bullet from passing through your flesh. That seems to be consistent with how it's portrayed in the books.

Brandon Sanderson

Just a note: in the quote of mine above, I was trying (I believe) to find a way for Wax to indicate that weight doesn't influence the rate at which he falls. IE, acceleration in regards to gravity. It's tough, and I made the call (perhaps incorrectly) not to use modern physics terminology in the W&W books. It has been very hard then to explain:

1). Wax changing his weight doesn't change the pull of gravity on him, or the rate at which he falls. 2) He DOES follow the laws of conservation of momentum.

My talking around these things has let me to tie a few paragraphs in knots.

General Reddit 2016 (Feb. 19, 2016)

 

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Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Six

The fight in the ballroom

From the early days of the Mistborn books, I'd been planning how an Allomantic gunfight would go down. I felt it the next evolution in what has been stylistically a big part of these books.

There is a fine line to walk in a lot of these sequences. I've made something of a name for myself in the fantasy world by attempting to mix some scientific reasoning with my magic systems. At the same time, Allomancy was designed precisely with action sequences in mind. I wanted them to be powerful and cinematic—and a cinematic fight sequence is often at odds with realism. (Watch two people who really know what they're doing fight with swords sometime, then watch any fight sequence in a film. Most of the time, the film sequences stray far from what would really happen.)

So, as I said, I walk a line. Sometimes, there are things I just can't do because they violate what I've set up as the rules of the world. Other times, I design the setting and nature of the fight specifically to allow for certain types of cinematic sequences. One thing I like a lot about Wax’s abilities is the power he has to manipulate his weight. There's some realism to what he does—for example, increasing his weight doesn't make him fall more quickly, but it allows him to do some powerful things while falling. Destroying the chandeliers is an example.

At the same time, I acknowledge that the weight manipulation aspect of Feruchemy is one of its more baffling powers, scientifically. Is he changing his mass? If so, he should become more dense, which I don't actually make the case when it plays out in fights. (Otherwise, increasing his weight enough would make him impervious to bullets.) So, if it's not mass manipulation, is it gravity manipulation, like Szeth and Kaladin do? Well, again, not really—as when his weight increases, his strength and ability to uphold that weight increase as well. Beyond that, Wax can't make himself so light that he has no weight at all.

So . . . well, at this point, the ability to explain it scientifically breaks down. I do like what it does, but I have to set its boundaries and stick to them—and accept that some of what's going on is irrational. (And don't get me started on what should really be happening scientifically when Wayne speeds up time.)

Footnote: Brandon has stated that iron Feruchemy works by manipulating the Higgs field.
The Alloy of Law Annotations (March 14, 2014)

 

  Hide contents

Questioner

Does Iron store mass or weight?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The thing is it really does involve mass, but I’m breaking some physics rules, basically. I have to break a number of physics rules in order to make Magic work in the first place. Those whole laws of Thermodynamics, I’m like “You are my bane!” (laughter) But I try to work within the framework, and I have reasonings built up for myself, and some of them have to be kind of arbitrary. But the thing is, it does store mass if you look at how it interacts, but when a Feruchemist punches someone, you’re not having a mass transference of a 1000 pounds transferring the mass into someone else.

So there are a few little tweaks. You can go talk to Peter, because Peter has the actual math. Oh Peter’s back there. Peter is dressed up as Allomancer Jak from the broadsheet. In fact we’re giving some out broadsheets, aren’t we Peter. So when you come through the line, we’re giving out Broadsheets. Please don’t take fifty—I think we might have enough for everybody. The broadsheets are the newspaper from the Alloy of Law time. It’s an inworld newspaper. It’s actually reproduced in the book in four different pages, and we put it together in one big broadsheet.

So anyway, you can talk with him, he’s got more of the math of it. I explained the concept to Peter and he’s better with the actual math, so he said “We’ll figure it out.”

Alloy of Law release party (Nov. 7, 2011)

F-iron stores mass, not weight, but it does change how Skimmer interacts with weight (force) in the same way as he would be storing weight (force) in most cases. But it doesn't change the rate of gravitational acceleration. It also follows conservation of momentum. Make of it whatever you want.

Too sciency for me to bother trying to understand this late at night (even though I literally JUST did momentum in school) but from what I recall F-Iron seems to act a bit inconsistently across the different Eras

[alder24]

38 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Too sciency for me to bother trying to understand this late at night (even though I literally JUST did momentum in school) but from what I recall F-Iron seems to act a bit inconsistently across the different Eras

Good, you know the most important part. That's enough  

Edit: @Underwater_Worldhopper Don't listen to me, I'm stupid, it's late, my brain doesn't function anymore. Weight is mass times gravitational acceleration, F=mg, by changing mass you indirectly change weight without changing gravitational acceleration, thus you can climb trees easier, jump higher or push on coins further away. F-iron is still inconsistent, but that fixes a few problem.

Edited May 4, 2023 by alder24