Lifeless, Skin Tones, and Tattoos

[Trusk'our he/him]

If I remember correctly, some colors are more effective than others for Awakening; brown works, but colors like red and orange are better, and black is the best color for Awakening, as per WoB.

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Warbreaker Annotations - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Brandon Sanderson

Siri Enters and Sees Returned

Just a little note here. Returned live for eight days without a Breath, though the week is seven days long in this world. Why? Well, I figured that they'd need an extra day as leeway. On day seven, they start to grow weak and sluggish. If they don't consume a Breath, their body will consume their own on the eighth day of their life, and they'll die again.

In some parts of this world, Returned aren't worshipped, but instead seen as something akin to vampires. They draw in Breath to survive, and need a supply of people to feed off of. They tend to wear black, since it's the most powerful color for draining to Awaken things.

So, let's have an imaginary scenario play out; and Awakener brings to life two Lifeless with a single Breath Command. The two Lifeless were made from two people who were the same in skill, age, and physical and mental capacity.

However, one has a very dark skin tone while the other is an albino. Would the Lifeless made from the person with darker skin have a higher awareness, since they had more color to fuel the Awakening process?

Also, what about tattoos? If you Awakened someone with tattoos, would the Awakening draw on their color as well? If so, perhaps you could make a more effective Lifeless would be to tattoo every inch of the body you want to Awaken (though, would you have to do it while they were still alive?).

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

If I remember correctly, some colors are more effective than others for Awakening; brown works, but colors like red and orange are better, and black is the best color for Awakening, as per WoB.

So, let's have an imaginary scenario play out; and Awakener brings to life two Lifeless with a single Breath Command. The two Lifeless were made from two people who were the same in skill, age, and physical and mental capacity.

However, one has a very dark skin tone while the other is an albino. Would the Lifeless made from the person with darker skin have a higher awareness, since they had more color to fuel the Awakening process?

Also, what about tattoos? If you Awakened someone with tattoos, would the Awakening draw on their color as well? If so, perhaps you could make a more effective Lifeless would be to tattoo every inch of the body you want to Awaken (though, would you have to do it while they were still alive?).

Yeah, no idea. But that's only because we don't really know what color does in Awakening. The color draining is happening, because there is a spiritual change, filtered through Physical Realm, which shows off as a color turning into gray/white. And also you need a certain amount of color to Awaken, it's not the more the better, just a certain amount. Maybe, just maybe, because the change is in the spirit of the object, and in the case of Lifeless you create a fake new soul for it, which changes the soul of the body to "connect" it to the new soul, which changes the color of the body to gray? Then it wouldn't really matter how color intensive their body was.

Spoiler

tallakahath

So, on Nalthis, in the Warbreaker universe, when the color's pulled out of something, is that a physical or chemical change or is that a perceptual change?

Brandon Sanderson

It is actually a physical change, but the spirit of the thing is changing, and it's filtering through to the Physical Realm.

tallakahath

So, if I do that on a carrot, I can break beta carotin? If I do that on a piece of metal, I can reduce it and charge my battery that way?

Brandon Sanderson

Potentially, yeah! Yeah, that would work, you're changing it's Spiritual nature.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

Do specific colors have an impact on Awakening in Warbreaker?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not usually, you just need a certain amount to Awaken. But there can be more due to various reasons connected to the cosmere. It is connected to the significance of eye color on Roshar.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

This WoB below, points in the direction that the color is drained to fuel copying the mental visualization to an Awaken object. If that's true, then in the case of Lifeless, the more intensely colored skin he had, the better he would be at executing commands (not more self-aware, this comes from Breaths). Having tattoos would help too, as they are perceived more or less as part of the body, I think it would drain color from tattoos too.

Spoiler

Kurkistan

Do Breaths inherently possess the ability to interpret and carry out commands, or does the Awakener need to impart that decision making ability on Awakened objects?

If the Awakener does need to impart the decision-making ability, then does Awakening consist of an Awakener copying a portion of his/her Cognitive aspect (as determined by his/her visualization and verbal Command) onto the Cognitive aspect of the object being Awakened, with Breath then providing the "juice" for the object to actually follow its Command: powering both physical motion and "cogitation" based upon the copied Cognitive aspect?

If so, is that copying what drains color?

Brandon Sanderson

You're very close here.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yeah, no idea. But that's only because we don't really know what color does in Awakening. The color draining is happening, because there is a spiritual change, filtered through Physical Realm, which shows off as a color turning into gray/white. And also you need a certain amount of color to Awaken, it's not the more the better, just a certain amount. 

 

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yeah, no idea. But that's only because we don't really know what color does in Awakening. The color draining is happening, because there is a spiritual change, filtered through Physical Realm, which shows off as a color turning into gray/white. And also you need a certain amount of color to Awaken, it's not the more the better, just a certain amount.

This WoB below, points in the direction that the color is drained to fuel copying the mental visualization to an Awaken object. If that's true, then in the case of Lifeless, the more intensely colored skin he had, the better he would be at executing commands (not more self-aware, this comes from Breaths). Having tattoos would help too, as they are perceived more or less as part of the body, I think it would drain color from tattoos too.

What about when Vivenna tries out Awakening and uses her tunic to Awaken the first time, then tries it out with a branch the second time? with the less colorful branch, it took a lot more Breath to awaken her rope.

And if one were Awakening a Lifeless with a one Breath Command, would the "extra" Investiture from the Breath due to a Lifeless formerly having darker skin let them operate better? There would be less Investiture needed to make the Lifeless understand Commands, but Awakener's don't know how to split a single Breath yet, so would there be a little tiny bit extra for the Lifeless's cognition?

[alder24]

47 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

What about when Vivenna tries out Awakening and uses her tunic to Awaken the first time, then tries it out with a branch the second time? with the less colorful branch, it took a lot more Breath to awaken her rope.

And if one were Awakening a Lifeless with a one Breath Command, would the "extra" Investiture from the Breath due to a Lifeless formerly having darker skin let them operate better? There would be less Investiture needed to make the Lifeless understand Commands, but Awakener's don't know how to split a single Breath yet, so would there be a little tiny bit extra for the Lifeless's cognition?

That's likely because, like WoB said, Awakening requires a certain amount of color, if there is too little color, Breaths are used instead. And that stick (don't confuse it with The Stick) was likely small and had very little color. It needs more Breaths to execute commands. But normal Lifeless are already created only with 1 Breath, so using more color won't bring any benefit (unless it will become better at executing commands). 

It's really hard to say what would happen in case of colors in Awakening. We don't know what color does in Awakening, and until Nightblood get written, we won't know. That's why it's impossible to say what more intensely colored skin would do to a Lifeless.

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's likely because, like WoB said, Awakening requires a certain amount of color, if there is too little color, Breaths are used instead. And that stick (don't confuse it with The Stick) was likely small and had very little color. It needs more Breaths to execute commands. But normal Lifeless are already created only with 1 Breath, so using more color won't bring any benefit (unless it will become better at executing commands). 

It's really hard to say what would happen in case of colors in Awakening. We don't know what color does in Awakening, and until Nightblood get written, we won't know. That's why it's impossible to say what more intensely colored skin would do to a Lifeless.

I suppose that's a fair conclusion. Plus, I suppose we don't really know how much "color" the stick had compared to Vivenna's tunic, due to the size difference between them, not just the color difference.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

And that stick (don't confuse it with The Stick)

Lol 

[alder24]

I've found an interesting WoB. And what defines how good Lifeless are at executing commands is the first visualization, during the initial Awakening process - the better the visualization, the better he is at executing later commands. If the color is drained to enable copying a mental image to the Awakened object, then more intensely colored Lifeless would be better at executing commands. If there wouldn't be enough color, Lifeless would be worse. So I was theorizing, but that's no longer the case.

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Brandon Sanderson

Vasher Fights the Guards, Then Creates a Lifeless Squirrel

I wanted to show the creation of a Lifeless somewhere in this book, as I think the process is interesting. The draining of color happens in a slightly different way than in regular Awakening, though it's similar. In this case, the creature draws color from its own body in order to come to life.

The better your imagining of the Command when you make it (not the orders you give it, but the one when you give it the Breath), the more intelligent and capable of following orders the Lifeless is. Later in the book, for instance, people are surprised at how good this little squirrel is at doing what it is told.

Warbreaker Annotations (Oct. 19, 2010)

But that can't be the case. Color intensity of the body has nothing to do with how well Lifeless is executing commands. Why? Vasher Awakened gray squirrel, and it was extremely capable of executing long and complicated commands given by both Vasher and Lightsong, despite it being gray.

Warbreaker ch 21:

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The squirrel lost all color, bleeding to grey, the Awakening feeding off the body’s own colors to help fuel the transformation. The squirrel had been grey in the first place, so the difference was tough to see. That’s why Vasher liked to use them

ch 38:

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“I’m just pointing out that a single assassination couldn’t ruin our entire army,” Lightsong said, holding up the squirrel. “That’s not the point. The point is that whomever made this squirrel held quite a bit of Breath and knew what he was doing. The creature’s blood has been replaced with ichor- alcohol. The sutures are perfect. The Commands controlling the rodent were extremely strong. It’s a marvelous piece of BioChromatic art.”

ch 42:

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“Almond grass,” he said quietly, giving the new Command he’d had his people imprint on the Lifeless. Then he spoke louder, so that the priestess could hear. “Go into the building, search out the Returned who lives in it, and run around in circles squeaking as loudly as you can. Don’t let anyone catch you. Oh, and destroy as much furniture as you can.” Then, more quietly, he repeated, “Almond grass.”
[...]
“It won’t be able to follow all of those orders, Your Grace,” Llarimar said. “It has the mind of a squirrel, despite the power that Breath gives it to obey Commands.”
[...]

“With an accidental Command to find me?” Allmother asked. “Then run around in circles screaming?”
“That actually worked?” Lightsong said. “Interesting. My high priest didn’t think the squirrel’s brain would be capable of following such complicated Commands.”

 

As seen, despite the fact that the squirrel to begin with, it was extremely capable of understanding and executing very complicated orders. Which means that even if color is used for copying mental visualization, it has no bearing on the Lifeless capabilities of understanding and executing commands, as this depends only on how good the visualization was. Moreover, the color intensity of Lifeless body also doesn't change the amounts of Breaths required to Awaken - Vasher Awaken gray squirrel with a single Breath. Whatever color is doing in Awakening, in the case of Lifeless it doesn't matter.

[Treamayne]

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

Whatever color is doing in Awakening, in the case of Lifeless it doesn't matter.

Or, we have yet to see how it matters.

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 4/23/2023 at 7:04 AM, alder24 said:

I've found an interesting WoB. And what defines how good Lifeless are at executing commands is the first visualization, during the initial Awakening process - the better the visualization, the better he is at executing later commands. If the color is drained to enable copying a mental image to the Awakened object, then more intensely colored Lifeless would be better at executing commands. If there wouldn't be enough color, Lifeless would be worse. So I was theorizing, but that's no longer the case.

But that can't be the case. Color intensity of the body has nothing to do with how well Lifeless is executing commands. Why? Vasher Awakened gray squirrel, and it was extremely capable of executing long and complicated commands given by both Vasher and Lightsong, despite it being gray.

As seen, despite the fact that the squirrel to begin with, it was extremely capable of understanding and executing very complicated orders. Which means that even if color is used for copying mental visualization, it has no bearing on the Lifeless capabilities of understanding and executing commands, as this depends only on how good the visualization was. Moreover, the color intensity of Lifeless body also doesn't change the amounts of Breaths required to Awaken - Vasher Awaken gray squirrel with a single Breath. Whatever color is doing in Awakening, in the case of Lifeless it doesn't matter.

Good point on the squirrel, I had forgotten about that.

That does point away from Lifeless skin color mattering, and more towards the practitioner's skill.

Although, how much Breath was used to Awaken it again? I thought Vasher mentioned it was more than one Breath, which that would also improve its cognitive function.

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Or, we have yet to see how it matters.

Yeah, I think we'd really need to ask Brandon or see in the books to confirm whether it matters or not.

But, that's how these things always work 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Although, how much Breath was used to Awaken it again? I thought Vasher mentioned it was more than one Breath, which that would also improve its cognitive function.

One breath - Warbreaker Ch 21:

Spoiler

Vasher knelt, putting a hand on the creature.

“Awaken to my Breath,” he Commanded, “serve my needs, live at my Command and my word. Fallen Rope.”

Those last words, “fallen rope,” formed the security phrase. Vasher could have chosen anything, but he picked the first thing that came to mind.

One Breath was leached from his body, going down into the small rodent’s corpse. The thing began to twitch. That was a Breath Vasher would never be able to recover, for creating a Lifeless was a permanent act. The squirrel lost all color, bleeding to grey, the Awakening feeding off the body’s own colors to help fuel the transformation. The squirrel had been grey in the first place, so the difference was tough to see. That’s why Vasher liked to use them.

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

One breath - Warbreaker Ch 21:

  Hide contents

Vasher knelt, putting a hand on the creature.

“Awaken to my Breath,” he Commanded, “serve my needs, live at my Command and my word. Fallen Rope.”

Those last words, “fallen rope,” formed the security phrase. Vasher could have chosen anything, but he picked the first thing that came to mind.

One Breath was leached from his body, going down into the small rodent’s corpse. The thing began to twitch. That was a Breath Vasher would never be able to recover, for creating a Lifeless was a permanent act. The squirrel lost all color, bleeding to grey, the Awakening feeding off the body’s own colors to help fuel the transformation. The squirrel had been grey in the first place, so the difference was tough to see. That’s why Vasher liked to use them.

 

Okay then, clearly color isn't as useful for creating Lifeless as I once thought 

[cometaryorbit]

Perhaps the amount of color needed is small enough that it's rarely relevant. Only one Breath is being transferred, so even a small gray squirrel has enough color to "fuel" that.

I wonder if you cut open that Lifeless squirrel, would its blood be gray? The change may not be totally external.

Also, by WoB giving up your Breath uses "your own color", and Drabs aren't obviously visibly different - Vivenna only notices that Jewels is Drab with heightened life sense; she's not obviously an unnatural gray color. So I think the amount of color needed to fuel the transfer of one Breath is small compared to what's in a human.

Edited June 6, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Also, by WoB giving up your Breath uses "your own color", and Drabs aren't obviously visibly different - Vivenna only notices that Jewels is Drab with heightened life sense; she's not obviously an unnatural gray color. So I think the amount of color needed to fuel the transfer of one Breath is small compared to what's in a human.

What WoB is that? Becoming drab doesn't leech (to grey) any color, at least not as seen by the child that fed Lightsong in Ch 3. Some "color of life" fades, but that is implied to be the inverse of a Breath Aura making colors more vibrant:

Spoiler

er Breath flowed out, puffing in the air. It traveled along Lightsong’s arm—the touch was necessary—and he drew it in. His weakness vanished, the dizziness evaporated. Both were replaced with crisp clarity. He felt invigorated, revitalized, alive.

The girl grew dull. The color of her lips and eyes faded slightly. Her brown hair lost some of its luster; her cheeks became more bland.

It’s nothing, he thought. Most people say they can’t even tell that their Breath is gone. She’ll live a full life. Happy. Her family will be well paid for her sacrifice.

And Lightsong would live for another week. 

Probably connected to Health, since BS says in the Annotations:

Spoiler

It’s common for someone who suddenly becomes a Drab to get sick almost immediately. For a time, her immune system was magically enhanced and warded, in a way, to keep her from becoming ill. With that removed suddenly, sickness can strike. She hasn’t built up immunities to the sicknesses going around, and by becoming a Drab, her immune system suddenly works far worse than that of other people.

 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Lightsong's quote could be a sign that only perfect color sight can see the leeching of color - as it's practically nothing, and the drab certainly doesn't have PCS.

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Breakingha said:

Hey, I can relate to the struggle with lifeless skin tones and tattoos! I remember feeling a bit disheartened about how my tattoo looked against dull skin.

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