Spiking a Koloss's Strength

[Trusk'our he/him]

I had an idea recently in another post to Hemalurgically spike a Mistwraith, but then wondered if spiking a Kandra would lead to a different end result, which lead to this idea.

When you Hemalurgically spike a human's strength from them using H-iron, you can use those spikes to twist another human into a Koloss.

But what if you try to take a Koloss's strength via Hemalurgy?

This would, I think, on whether all the power of the Koloss's added strength is in the spikes, or if it's a combination of their growing muscles and an enhancement of their spikes. My personal idea currently for how Koloss spikes work is that they provide a magical boost on top of "twisting" the recipient, causing them to grow huge muscles. The power in the spikes probably couldn't be spiked out (since it isn't actually part of the donor's Spiritweb), but the new, twisted Spiritweb might.

So let's have a scenario play out; a Koloss tribe needs more members to help compete with their neighboring tribes. Unfortunately, they don't have enough spikes to make more Koloss, but they do have a human who knows how to make more spikes and wants to become a Koloss. The human helper convinces the Koloss elders to let him spike out the elder's strength and use those spikes to turn himself into a new Koloss.

The question is, does anything wonky go on with the new Koloss? Does he get more of a strength boost than other Koloss, since the strength stolen was from much stronger creatures than human? Does the warping effect on his Spiritweb get worse, since it isn't stolen pieces of human Spiritwebs, but stolen pieces of Koloss Spiritwebs that have already been warped? Would even weirder things happen if the process continued to be practiced, eventually creating some crazy mutant Koloss from other Koloss that had also been made from Koloss?

Edited April 26, 2023 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I had an idea recently in another post to Hemalurgically spike a Mistwraith, but then wondered if spiking a Kandra would lead to a different end result, which lead to this idea.

When you Hemalurgically spike a human's strength from them using H-iron, you can use those spikes to twist another human into a Koloss.

But what if you try to take a Koloss's strength via Hemalurgy?

This would, I think, on whether all the power of the Koloss's added strength is in the spikes, or if it's a combination of their growing muscles and an enhancement of their spikes. My personal idea currently for how Koloss spikes work is that they provide a magical boost on top of "twisting" the recipient, causing them to grow huge muscles. The power in the spikes probably couldn't be spiked out (since it isn't actually part of the donor's Spiritweb), but the new, twisted Spiritweb might.

So let's have a scenario play out; a Koloss tribe needs more members to help compete with their neighboring tribes. Unfortunately, they don't have enough spikes to make more Koloss, but they do have a human who knows how to make more spikes and wants to become a Koloss. The human helper convinces the Koloss elders to let him spike out the elder's strength and use those spikes to turn himself into a new Koloss.

The question is, does anything wonky go on with the new Koloss? Does he get more of a strength boost than other Koloss, since the strength stolen was from much stronger creatures than human? Does the warping effect on his Spiritweb get worse, since it isn't stolen pieces of human Spiritwebs, but stolen pieces of Koloss Spiritwebs that have already been warped? Would even weirder things happen if the process continued to be practiced, eventually creating some crazy mutant Koloss from other Koloss that had also been made from Koloss?

I don't think this would work. The Koloss strength is from their spikes, even if the body strength is more than what 4 spikes provide, this change is due to spikes and added spirit webs, take the spikes away, and you end up with regular humans again (dead likely). What would you steal is regular human strength, contaminated with Koloss identity of some sort (maybe or maybe not). 

Spoiler

Phantine

Would a lifeless Koloss still be super strong?

Brandon Sanderson

You see, what is happening to create a koloss is a human soul is taken, sliced up, and sutured back together--with the spikes being the "stitches" that holds it all together. That's a problem, since the various forms of investiture don't play very well together. In Awakening, you're basically giving something a counterfeit soul. (But without the skill or knowledge of something like an Essence Mark.)

This means that in investing the corpse of the koloss, you have troubles. It's going to want to snap back to the original human shape and strength. If you COULD overcome this, then yes, it would be stronger.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 11, 2015)

But if you spike yourself with 4 spikes like that, you might end up like one of the primar Koloss created by TLR, more mindless and aggressive. Or not, after all you are stealing from mostly human spirit web.

That's a question you should ask Brandon himself.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

27 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't think this would work. The Koloss strength is from their spikes, even if the body strength is more than what 4 spikes provide, this change is due to spikes and added spirit webs, take the spikes away, and you end up with regular humans again (dead likely). What would you steal is regular human strength, contaminated with Koloss identity of some sort (maybe or maybe not). 

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Phantine

Would a lifeless Koloss still be super strong?

Brandon Sanderson

You see, what is happening to create a koloss is a human soul is taken, sliced up, and sutured back together--with the spikes being the "stitches" that holds it all together. That's a problem, since the various forms of investiture don't play very well together. In Awakening, you're basically giving something a counterfeit soul. (But without the skill or knowledge of something like an Essence Mark.)

This means that in investing the corpse of the koloss, you have troubles. It's going to want to snap back to the original human shape and strength. If you COULD overcome this, then yes, it would be stronger.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 11, 2015)

 

Ah, but this WoB from 2016 says that Hemalurgy changes the spirit, hence the reason if a Koloss died it would stay the same rather than change back to human form. So if you spiked a Koloss the Spiritweb taken would be changed as well, most likely.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182/#e3870

Tehdren

For instance, a person's spiritual component knows how old they are.

Wow. Has this been talked about before? This kind of seems like a big tidbit. Now we have some idea of how Hoid changes his age?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't said if this is a method Hoid uses or not, but it's part of the reason the Lord Ruler turned to dust when he lost his metalminds. (His body tried to match the age his spirit said he was.)

Phantine

If they somehow killed the Lord Ruler in a conventional manner, would he still have turned to dust?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. The metalminds would have stopped being tapped, and the spirit of the matter would probably still have had this strange effect. Not it didn't happen to the bodies of the shard vessels who died.

Phantine

Would koloss spikes turn off when they die too, so dead ones shrivel up like raisins?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy changes the spirit. So not necessarily.

 

29 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But if you spike yourself with 4 spikes like that, you might end up like one of the primar Koloss created by TLR, more mindless and aggressive. Or not, after all you are stealing from mostly human spirit web.

That indeed would be one of the fears of trying to use those spikes. Actually, if anyone who uses a MAG wants an idea for a challenge, say that the above scenario above happens, and it while it causes the Koloss tribe to grow in numbers they also become more aggressive, causing them to attack nearby settlements. The players have to stop the growing tribe from destroying the neighboring town. It could prove interesting 

33 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's a question you should ask Brandon himself.  

I have a lot (seriously, a LOT) of questions that I'd like to ask Brando Sando, but unfortunately, I have no idea how one would realistically go about doing it 

[Argenti he/him]

3 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I have a lot (seriously, a LOT) of questions that I'd like to ask Brando Sando, but unfortunately, I have no idea how one would realistically go about doing it 

Since going to his house and banging on his doors will probably get you arrested, move to the area and join Brandon's church (I'm not sure what the right word is for LDS) eventually you might get into a dinner with him and ask your questions. Then ask yourself "was uprooting  my entire life worth it".

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Since going to his house and banging on his doors will probably get you arrested, move to the area and join Brandon's church (I'm not sure what the right word is for LDS) eventually you might get into a dinner with him and ask your questions. Then ask yourself "was uprooting  my entire life worth it".

Already am a member of his church, as it happens . So I guess I've already inadvertently done step one.

(The congregations where people meet in are called "Wards", by the way )

[Argenti he/him]

1 minute ago, Trusk'our said:

Already am a member of his church, as it happens . So I guess I've already inadvertently done step one.

(The congregations where people meet in are called "Wards", by the way )

Well now you have to get to know him!  Or perhaps get a job a dragonsteel? Maybe you could become a shipping manager, work at Tor, or start the author Oscars. The more interaction you have the better!

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Well now you have to get to know him!  Or perhaps get a job a dragonsteel? Maybe you could become a shipping manager, work at Tor, or start the author Oscars. The more interaction you have the better!

Ah, the effort we must go through to know whether sticking a metal pin into someone will turn them into a monster or whether it will turn them into a bigger monster 

[Argenti he/him]

13 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Ah, the effort we must go through to know whether sticking a metal pin into someone will turn them into a monster or whether it will turn them into a bigger monster 

There is also always the nuclear option... 

Spoiler

Seduction

 

[alder24]

30 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Ah, but this WoB from 2016 says that Hemalurgy changes the spirit, hence the reason if a Koloss died it would stay the same rather than change back to human form. So if you spiked a Koloss the Spiritweb taken would be changed as well, most likely.

In this case they're already dead, their spirit moved into the Beyond, detached from the body. Like the WoB I posted said, investing that body more would make it snap back into the original human form, as that's what the body's spiritual ideal is telling it to look like. 

32 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I have a lot (seriously, a LOT) of questions that I'd like to ask Brando Sando, but unfortunately, I have no idea how one would realistically go about doing it 

YT spoiler streams, watch out for those and post a question on reddit/comment section. Or try to meet him in person. Easier said than done

[Koloss17 She/They]

Alright, I saw this post and felt like I was contractually obligated to respond in some way.

 

Koloss are funky fellas, and if there was an excuse to sacrifice four Koloss to get an even bigger, beefier Koloss, they totally would. Could they? Yeah, it kind of looks like it. I don’t think you could really farm spikes off of it (I.e. spike a Koloss, then let it build up muscles again to spike it again), but a four-into-one Koloss made of four-into-one Koloss would be probably possible.

 

My only question then is if they would still be human after all that. They would no longer be human beefed by humans, they would be a human beefed by a creature beefed by humans. 
 

My other wondering is how far you could take that? What type of Matryoshka-doll abomination could you create before they either collapse from their own horrific existence or Ruin himself strikes it down?

[therunner he/him]

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Ah, but this WoB from 2016 says that Hemalurgy changes the spirit, hence the reason if a Koloss died it would stay the same rather than change back to human form. So if you spiked a Koloss the Spiritweb taken would be changed as well, most likely.

I mean, Hemalurgy changes spirit by definition, since it spikes additional parts into it

And notably, Koloss cognitive aspect reverts back to human after dying, and does not remain Koloss after death, suggesting the changes to spiritweb aren't persistent, and are more due to presence of spike in the body, so once Cognitive aspect no longer has valid Connection to PR, spiritweb reverts to original state (or close to it)

Edited April 26, 2023 by therunner