Who is the God of Who (whom???) ~SA Spoilers~

[Nogo]

In The Way of Kings, during one of Dalinar's visions, or VHS recordings done by Honor and watched by Dalinar in Ultra HD... Honor says "I am the on you call the Almighty, creator of mankind." or something really friggin close to that.  Ok, in WoK we all go "right on dude, God, Almighty, whatever, Ok, got it."   

But then we advance in time and we discover Ashyn and Braize (Home of the best Braized meats) and the stories of humankind fleeing Ashyn to Roshar.   This is where things get dicey.  Did Honor create humans on Ashyn?  The message we have so far (granted translated from Singers but still) says that Honor was their (Singer) God and Odium was the human God until things changed.  Buuuuuut, Honor recorded on his VHS tape that he was the creator of mankind.  

Did Odium pull a Ruin and change the Eile Stele?  Was Honor the God that the humans brought and somehow that was "the void?"  I feel like the information that we have does not meld together properly.

Have I missed some explanations somewhere about this?   Help me (and try not to make me feel too stupid when you do)

[Kasimir he/him]

1 hour ago, Nogo said:

In The Way of Kings, during one of Dalinar's visions, or VHS recordings done by Honor and watched by Dalinar in Ultra HD... Honor says "I am the on you call the Almighty, creator of mankind." or something really friggin close to that.  Ok, in WoK we all go "right on dude, God, Almighty, whatever, Ok, got it."   

I mean, the easiest reconciliation is to read "the creator of mankind" as a descriptor/adjective for 'the Almighty', no? He's identifying himself with the figure Vorin culture calls the Almighty, and Vorin culture attributes the Almighty with creating mankind. He's not saying he did it, he's just using the descriptor Dalinar or whoever might get the VHS would recognise.

[Treamayne]

On 4/26/2023 at 10:38 PM, Nogo said:

In The Way of Kings, during one of Dalinar's visions, or VHS recordings done by Honor and watched by Dalinar in Ultra HD... Honor says "I am the on you call the Almighty, creator of mankind." or something really friggin close to that.  Ok, in WoK we all go "right on dude, God, Almighty, whatever, Ok, got it."   

But then we advance in time and we discover Ashyn and Braize (Home of the best Braized meats) and the stories of humankind fleeing Ashyn to Roshar.   This is where things get dicey.  Did Honor create humans on Ashyn?  The message we have so far (granted translated from Singers but still) says that Honor was their (Singer) God and Odium was the human God until things changed.  Buuuuuut, Honor recorded on his VHS tape that he was the creator of mankind.  

Did Odium pull a Ruin and change the Eile Stele?  Was Honor the God that the humans brought and somehow that was "the void?"  I feel like the information that we have does not meld together properly.

Have I missed some explanations somewhere about this?   Help me (and try not to make me feel too stupid when you do)

 

On 4/27/2023 at 0:14 AM, Kasimir said:

I mean, the easiest reconciliation is to read "the creator of mankind" as a descriptor/adjective for 'the Almighty', no? He's identifying himself with the figure Vorin culture calls the Almighty, and Vorin culture attributes the Almighty with creating mankind. He's not saying he did it, he's just using the descriptor Dalinar or whoever might get the VHS would recognise.

^This^ It's Sanderson being a tricksy Hobbitses with his grammar and punctuation to let this foreshadowing be misleading the first book (until you get other information in book three, look back and go "oh, I see.")

Here's the passage from chapter 75:

Spoiler

“Who are you?” Dalinar asked again. And yet, he thought he knew.

“I am… I was… God. The one you call the Almighty, the creator of mankind.” The figure closed his eyes. “And now I am dead. Odium has killed me. I am sorry.”

He purposely left out the quote quotes so the phrase can be misread (because Dalinar is hearing this, not reading it - and Dalinar misunderstood. . . unreliable narrator at play). So, technically it should be:

Spoiler

“Who are you?” Dalinar asked again. And yet, he thought he knew.

“I am… I was… God. The one you call 'the Almighty, the creator of mankind'.” The figure closed his eyes. “And now I am dead. Odium has killed me. I am sorry.”

The whole "title" is Tanavast quoting what the Humans call him (not what he "is"). As far as who is the god of whom - this is what we "know" so far:

• Spoiler

  • Roshar Predates the Shattering (Singers may or may not also predate the Shattering)
  • Humans Migrated to Ashyn (pre or post shattering is unknown)
  • Ashyn had access to Surges (similar or vastly different from Surges on Roshar is unknown)
  • Post-Shattering, Honor and Cultivation went to Roshar
    • They became the gods of the Singers and created the Sapient Spren
  • At some point Odium went to Ashyn and influenced the destruction there by use of unfettered Surges
  • Many (but not all) Humans migrated from Ashyn to Roshar via Elsecalling, bringing some of their ecology with them
  • Singers believed that Odium was the god of the Humans because he followed
    • But we have no evidence that Humans from Ashyn actually worshiped Odium - only that he influenced them, possibly without their knowledge
  • The Sapient Spren allied with Humans - because they get more from the Nahel Bond with a Human
    • Humans started worshiping either Honor or Cultivation (or both)
  • Odium took advantage of the feelings of Betrayal to influence the Singers to create the Fused
    • Odium became the god of the Singers

Edited May 5, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Nogo]

9 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

^This^ It's Sanderson being a tricksy Hobbitses with his grammar and punctuation to let this foreshadowing be misleading the first book (until you get other information in book three, look back and go "oh, I see.")

 

The whole "title" is Tanavast quoting what the Humans call him (not what he "is"). As far as who is the god of whom - this is what we "know" so far:

Grumble grumble.   Very misleading Mr. Sanderson.  Grumble grumble.  Referring to himself as the Almighty as a title... I get that.  Referring to himself as the creator of mankind... seems like your tricksy Hobbitses as you say.

Syl would have hemmed Kaladin up if he did something like that.

Sidenote... I am still very interested in the surges used on Ashyn.  That is, as far as I know, a huge gap of information that we are oblivious to.  If humans didn't bond spren until they reached Roshar then what enabled them to be invested on Ashyn?

[Beodrakis he/him]

8 hours ago, Nogo said:

In The Way of Kings, during one of Dalinar's visions, or VHS recordings done by Honor and watched by Dalinar in Ultra HD... Honor says "I am the on you call the Almighty, creator of mankind."

I believe thatHonor just says what the humans call him, and creator of mankind is just a part of the title humans gave him

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, Nogo said:

I am still very interested in the surges used on Ashyn.  That is, as far as I know, a huge gap of information that we are oblivious to.  If humans didn't bond spren until they reached Roshar then what enabled them to be invested on Ashyn?

That is, presumably, something we won't find out until the back half when we finally get either Taln's or Ash's flashbacks (which will likely include some of their time on Ashyn before the emigration).

[alder24]

23 minutes ago, Nogo said:

Sidenote... I am still very interested in the surges used on Ashyn.  That is, as far as I know, a huge gap of information that we are oblivious to.  If humans didn't bond spren until they reached Roshar then what enabled them to be invested on Ashyn?

Magic system appears because of interactions between Shards and the planetary system. On the Roshar system there were 3 Shards present, and 3 planets that could be inhabited. Odium was involved with Ashyn, that's very likely where the magic came from. His interactions with Ashyn make the magic system appear.

The other thing is that people on Roshar call every magic Surgebinding. Creating illusions is always Lightweaving for them, manipulation of connection is Bondsmithing for them, and teleportation is Elsecalling, even if those are not based on spren bonds. Fused have access to Surgebinding without any spren bond.

Spoiler

asmodeus

You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets.

I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it.

Footnote: It was a really fun one.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Shardbound

Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Argent

In the Syl interlude in Rhythm of War, she is speaking with Dalinar about his powers and the things those powers have done in the past. And what she says is "a Bondsmith bound other Surges". First of all, what other Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

One potential interpretation for you on this, remember they use Surge and spren sometimes interchangeably in-world. Just making you aware of that.

Argent

Yeah I'm aware of that. Bound other Surges....

Argent

Then the term Bondsmith. To me it seems like she's talking about Ishar and the Ashyn stuff. So would they use Bondsmith to describe him in that place?

Brandon Sanderson

That might be what she's talking about. I'm not guaranteeing it.

Argent

And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion?

Brandon Sanderson

So one other thing to keep aware of in the cosmere - for instance they call "Lightweaving" any illusion-based magic working on the same fundamentals. And so you could argue - and people will use it that way in-world - that Bondsmithing is both an order [of Knights Radiant] and a power that exists outside the order.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Does that make sense?

Argent

I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

[Nogo]

That's a lot of good knowledge!  Makes me then wonder if Rayse was just idling on Ashyn waiting for humans to do what they do best...

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, Nogo said:

That's a lot of good knowledge!  Makes me then wonder if Rayse was just idling on Ashyn waiting for humans to do what they do best...

"Hey Ishar, check this cool thing you can do! Use this Dawnshard and connect the planet's surface to the Sun, it will be fun!"

Edited April 27, 2023 by alder24

[Nogo]

On 4/27/2023 at 2:40 PM, alder24 said:

"Hey Ishar, check this cool thing you can do! Use this Dawnshard and connect the planet's surface to the Sun, it will be fun!"

I can't believe you only got 3 heart/reputation/like thingies for that line.  Made me laugh so hard.  Well said sir, well said.  Unfortunately it doesn't seem far from the truth either... 

I forgot to write something I can't doublepost... so major edit here-- The Ashyn timeline doesn't jive well with me.

Spoiler

Ishar connects the sun to the planet (or whatever he really does) and manages to move the people to Roshar.  On Roshar, presumably, the agreement for humans to remain in Shinovar and never walk on stone was the deal struck with the Singers.  With this deal in place, life goes on... and the story of "The girl who looks up" takes place.  The Shards switch populaces etc etc, and then the war between races commences.  And Ishar becomes one of the Heralds.  Did all of that literally happen in one lifetime!?!?!?  It seems multi generational to me.  

Makes me wonder when the Shards really got ahold of the different populations.  

Edited May 2, 2023 by Nogo

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Nogo said:

I can't believe you only got 3 heart/reputation/like thingies for that line.  Made me laugh so hard.  Well said sir, well said.  Unfortunately it doesn't seem far from the truth either... 

I forgot to write something I can't doublepost... so major edit here-- The Ashyn timeline doesn't jive well with me.

  Hide contents

Ishar connects the sun to the planet (or whatever he really does) and manages to move the people to Roshar.  On Roshar, presumably, the agreement for humans to remain in Shinovar and never walk on stone was the deal struck with the Singers.  With this deal in place, life goes on... and the story of "The girl who looks up" takes place.  The Shards switch populaces etc etc, and then the war between races commences.  And Ishar becomes one of the Heralds.  Did all of that literally happen in one lifetime!?!?!?  It seems multi generational to me.  

Makes me wonder when the Shards really got a hold of the different populations.  

There are two possible assumptions in that spoilered synopsis

Spoiler

1. We don't know that "The Girl Who Looked Up" happened on Roshar - it could also have been an event from the past of the Ashyn refugees before the events that made them leave that planet
2. We don't know how long the Herald's life was extended due to Investiture before the Oathpact (we only know that 9 of teh 10 were born on Ashyn, and Shalash was born on Roshar after the migration).
   • After all many things, like Breath, can extend a mortal's life - and they had at least one Dawnshard while on Ashyn. . . They very well could have been much older by the time the Oathpact was formed.

It doesn't answer everything, but it does help identify questions to be considered and pursued.

[Nogo]

17 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

 

It doesn't answer everything, but it does help identify questions to be considered and pursued.

Truth.   "The girl who looks up" just screams OG Shinovar to me.  Maybe that's just the tricksy hobbitses talking again though.  I had thought about that from the Ashyn point of view but it just didn't take hold in my mind.  That could possibly be because we know almost nothing about Ashyn and it could match like so totally super well and the girl was really Ishar or something.  As for the age thing... it could be, of course... but that seems like a real stretch to me.  I think there's something missing or misleading in our story / timeline from 7500 or some odd years ago.   Something else is going (or went) on there.   I think... maybe...

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Nogo said:

I forgot to write something I can't doublepost... so major edit here-- The Ashyn timeline doesn't jive well with me.

Spoiler

Ishar connects the sun to the planet (or whatever he really does) and manages to move the people to Roshar.  On Roshar, presumably, the agreement for humans to remain in Shinovar and never walk on stone was the deal struck with the Singers.  With this deal in place, life goes on... and the story of "The girl who looks up" takes place.  The Shards switch populaces etc etc, and then the war between races commences.  And Ishar becomes one of the Heralds.  Did all of that literally happen in one lifetime!?!?!?  It seems multi generational to me.  

Makes me wonder when the Shards really got ahold of the different populations.  

There are multiple ways to achieve agelessness in Cosmere, one of which is being a Dawnshards and giving it up (Hoid). If Ishar did that (we don't know who was a Dawnshard on Ashyn), he was basically immortal after giving it up. Plus Ishar was a Ashyn Bondsmith, capable of manipulating connections, and age is a connection thing, which he might be able to manipulate to extend their lives.

Spoiler

Doom-Slayer

So how do the exact mechanics of Feruchemy in relation to Compounding work?

This confusion is primarily around how [the Lord Ruler] gets his near infinite age.

Okay. So first off, I understand the concept of how they work. Feruchemy is net zero, Allomancy is net positive, combine them and you end with a net positive Feruchemy ability.

So how Feruchemy normally works... you take say weight, store half your normal weight and then you can access it whenever you want. So you (originally X weight) are taking A weight, storing it, and then you are at (X-A) weight, with access to A. So we have a metalmind that store magnitude with the efficiency of how its received based on how quickly or slowly it is drawn upon.

All the metalminds except atium seem to act this way. Atium seems to work as storing magnitude/time rather than just magnitude. The way I understand it is that say a 30 year old person becomes 50 years old for 1 day, this would give access to 20 years difference for a 1 day period.

The Lord Ruler then exploits this by gaining access to say 20 years difference over 10 days (magnification by Compounding) which he then slowly feeds into himself to lower his age.

Why this difference? I'm assuming its to maintain a neutral "body age" because with just magnitude a person could permanently make themselves younger by Compounding.

With just magnitude of "20 years of youth" being stored, if the Lord Ruler magnified it, he could turn it into "200 years of youth" and then he would never need the constant stream off youth (and wouldn't have died without the bracelets)

Hope this makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

All right, so there are a few things you have to understand about cosmere magics to grok all of this.

First, is that magics can be hacked together. You'll see more of this in the future of the cosmere, but an early one is the hack here--where you're essentially powering Feruchemy with Allomancy. (A little more complex than that, but it seems like you get the idea.)

The piece you're missing is the nature of a person's Spiritual aspect. This is similar to a Platonic idea--the idea that there's a perfect version of everyone somewhere. It's a mix of their connections to places, people, and times with raw Investiture. The soul, you might say.

(Note that over time, a person's perception of themselves shapes their Cognitive aspect as well, and the Cognitive aspect can interfere with the Spiritual aspect trying to make the Physical aspect repair itself.) Healing in the cosmere often works by aligning your Physical self with your Spiritual self--making the Physical regrow. More powerful forms of Investiture can repair the soul as well.

However, your age is part of your Connection to places, people, and times. Your soul "knows" things, like where you were born, what Investiture you are aligned with, and--yes--how old you are. When you're healing yourself, you're restoring yourself to a perfect state--when you're done, everything is good. When you're changing your age, however, you are transforming yourself to something unnatural. Against what your soul understands to be true.

So the Spiritual aspect will push for a restoration to the way you should be. With this Compounding hack, you're not changing connection; it's a purely Physical Realm change.

This dichotomy cannot remain for long. And the greater the disparity, the more pressure the spirit will exert. Ten or twenty years won't matter much. A thousand will matter a lot. So the only way to use Compounding to change your age is to store up all this extra youth in a metalmind, then be constantly tapping it to counteract the soul's attempt to restore you to how you should be.

Yes, all of this means there are FAR more efficient means of counteracting aging than the one used by the Lord Ruler. It's a hack, and not meant to be terribly efficient. Eventually, he wouldn't have been able to maintain himself this way at all. Changing Connection (or even involving ones Cognitive Aspect a little more) would have been far more efficient, though actively more difficult.

Though this is the point where I ping [Peter Ahlstrom] and get him to double-check all this. Once in a while, my fingers still type the wrong term in places. (See silvereye vs tineye.)

General Reddit 2015 (Nov. 20, 2015)

 

7 hours ago, Nogo said:

Truth.   "The girl who looks up" just screams OG Shinovar to me.  Maybe that's just the tricksy hobbitses talking again though.  I had thought about that from the Ashyn point of view but it just didn't take hold in my mind.  That could possibly be because we know almost nothing about Ashyn and it could match like so totally super well and the girl was really Ishar or something.  As for the age thing... it could be, of course... but that seems like a real stretch to me.  I think there's something missing or misleading in our story / timeline from 7500 or some odd years ago.   Something else is going (or went) on there.   I think... maybe...

I believe what kickstarted the first Singer's Desolation was humanity starting to attract more emotion sprens (Eshonai mentioned Listeners are worse at attracting those sprens than humans) and more importantly, humans attracting True Sprens (and maybe even bonding them without gaining Surgebinding - that will come after Oathpact), After all, the Songs of Secrets sings:

Quote

The betrayal of spren has brought us here.
They gave their Surges to human heirs,
But not to those who know them most dear, before us.
'Tis no surprise we turned away
Unto the gods we spent our days
And to become their molding clay, they changed us.

But it happened likely during "first" human Desolation, when humanity invaded the rest of the Roshar from Shinovar, breaking the pact.

But remember Nale's flashback, in which he told Jezrien that he's surprised and honored that Jezrien asked his enemy, Nale, to join the Oathpact? That's fishy for me, and makes me think that humanity was divided and fighting each other at the same time. And that really makes me think that some Fused aren't Singers turned into Cognitive Shadows, but they were originally humans (Leshwi was a Singer, so not all of them). And if that's true, this might mean that the first Desolation with Fused, was humans fighting humans, not invading Roshar, and Singers were fighting with humans against Odium. Oathpact was made, Heralds were born, Fused were bound, and Singers saw that humans were attracting their beloved True Sprens bonding them and giving them surges, and turned away from Honor towards Odium.

[teknopathetic he/him]

Do we have any information on where human on Ashyn came from? I am not sure if they were there before Odium, or if Odium brought them to Ashyn. As far as we know, there isn't a perpendicularity there (though maybe there was in the past before Honour and Cultivation settled on Roshar permanently) 

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, teknopathetic said:

Do we have any information on where human on Ashyn came from? I am not sure if they were there before Odium, or if Odium brought them to Ashyn. As far as we know, there isn't a perpendicularity there (though maybe there was in the past before Honour and Cultivation settled on Roshar permanently) 

Cultivation has visited Ashyn in the past, personally I think they came from Yollen. And Odium was definately not behind their creation, as that would be far more of an investment than he wanted. Not to mention where he would have gotten the Dawnshards.

 

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Do we have any information on where human on Ashyn came from? I am not sure if they were there before Odium, or if Odium brought them to Ashyn. As far as we know, there isn't a perpendicularity there (though maybe there was in the past before Honour and Cultivation settled on Roshar permanently) 

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Cultivation has visited Ashyn in the past, personally I think they came from Yollen. And Odium was definately not behind their creation, as that would be far more of an investment than he wanted. Not to mention where he would have gotten the Dawnshards.

We don't know the origins of the humans on Ashyn, all we have so far is (WoB):

Spoiler

Zach G

Dunno if you can answer this now, but if everyone is from Yolen way back when, is there a migration story?

Brandon Sanderson

Not all humans originated on Yolen, but the first humans were there. Watch the books for myths that hint at more.

So, they may have been created there by Adonalsium when the system was created, they may have migrated there pre-Shattering, or they may have migrated there post-Shattering. Personally, I agree with @Frustration in that I think they migrated from Yolen; but I think they migrated from Yolen to Ashyn pre-Shattering.

 

[Nogo]

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There are multiple ways to achieve agelessness in Cosmere, one of which is being a Dawnshards and giving it up (Hoid). If Ishar did that (we don't know who was a Dawnshard on Ashyn), he was basically immortal after giving it up. Plus Ishar was a Ashyn Bondsmith, capable of manipulating connections, and age is a connection thing, which he might be able to manipulate to extend their lives.

I agree that long life could have been possible.  My mind just hasn't come to grips with many of them having extended lives and being alive on Ashyn and then still around on Roshar long enough for the whole Human/Singer agreement to implode.  It's surely possible, it just seems off to me.

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But remember Nale's flashback, in which he told Jezrien that he's surprised and honored that Jezrien asked his enemy, Nale, to join the Oathpact? That's fishy for me, and makes me think that humanity was divided and fighting each other at the same time. And that really makes me think that some Fused aren't Singers turned into Cognitive Shadows, but they were originally humans (Leshwi was a Singer, so not all of them). And if that's true, this might mean that the first Desolation with Fused, was humans fighting humans, not invading Roshar, and Singers were fighting with humans against Odium. Oathpact was made, Heralds were born, Fused were bound, and Singers saw that humans were attracting their beloved True Sprens bonding them and giving them surges, and turned away from Honor towards Odium.

Why do you always make my brain hurt!?!?!?   That is a very interesting thought.  How would we know if they were human?  They occupy Singer bodies now, and have since they became shadows... I never even came close to coming to that conclusion.  That deserves some serious thought.  I'm in the middle of OB right now so I will keep this in mind as I read the rest of SA and see if I glean any hints or innuendo or overt omissions. 

As for Nale and Jezeien, when I contemplated that statement when I first read it, I sort of figured that humanity had split between isolationists and expansionists.  Basically stonewalkers and non-stonewalkers.  And that assumption drives my confusion concerning the timeline as I would figure that multiple generations would have to go by before humanity forgot the agreement about staying in Shinovar and started expanding.  I am coming to think that assumption is wrong though.  I just don't see how the pieces fit and timeline wise it seems that moving to Roshar and the wars with the Singers happened fairly close together.  Even though I had always thought there was significant time there.  I think we need a good Ashyn / 1st Desolation flashback please.

....and I wrote this this morning before work... get back here now and realize I never submitted it.  So this might be 10 hours out of date...

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Nogo said:

Why do you always make my brain hurt!?!?!?

Because my brain hurts enough and I want to share this feeling with others too  

10 minutes ago, Nogo said:

As for Nale and Jezeien, when I contemplated that statement when I first read it, I sort of figured that humanity had split between isolationists and expansionists.  Basically stonewalkers and non-stonewalkers.

That sounds good. It would nicely explain the origins of the culture of Shinovar and why they view rocks as sacred.

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Nogo said:

I would figure that multiple generations would have to go by before humanity forgot the agreement about staying in Shinovar and started expanding.  I am coming to think that assumption is wrong though.  I just don't see how the pieces fit and timeline wise it seems that moving to Roshar and the wars with the Singers happened fairly close together.

Also, when was the last time any society completely abided by the decisions of its leaders? This assumes that all Singers agreed to allowing the humans to occupy the space West of the mountains (without skirmishing over "lost land") or that all human refugees followed the "agreement" to stay west of the mountains.

Even just looking at the last century, if Israel, South Sudan, Kashmir, etc. are any indications, it takes only years or decades for fighting to erupt over any "agreement" made by leaders in territorial matters. I always thought that the first generation born on Roshar would have started expanding past the mountains once they came of age - "no matter what our leaders and elders say." So, 20ish years. . .

Edited May 3, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Nogo]

13 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I always thought that the first generation born on Roshar would have started expanding past the mountains once they came of age - "no matter what our leaders and elders say." So, 20ish years. . .

Our "always thought" concepts were completely different.  I was the long term guy.  What you say makes sense and, from what it seems, is what actually happened.  Except for the Shin stone worshipers who wouldn't/didn't leave Shinovar of course.

Tangent point -- I was just finishing up Oathbringer again and noticed that Sly explicitly says to Kaladin that Odium was the human god on Ashyn and then switched to the Singers on Roshar (pg 1202).  Though she also admits that she wasn't around then.

Super-Tangent Rabbithole point-- So I was just finishing up Oathbringer again... and I realized that during the Battle of Thalyen City when Dalinar and company were counting radiants (plus Ash and Taln) and wound up with only nine instead of the expected ten... yeah I realized who the 10th one is and feel super dumb that I didn't pick it up at least on the 2nd read.  I mean it took my first reread since RoW to pick up on it.  Though I was really excited about it when everything clicked.  Does everyone else already know the 10th and I was just lagging way behind?

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

Cultivation has visited Ashyn in the past, personally I think they came from Yollen. And Odium was definately not behind their creation, as that would be far more of an investment than he wanted. Not to mention where he would have gotten the Dawnshards.

Ruin and Preservation made their world and their humans... did they need a Dawnshard  for that?  If so... that's very interesting.  Someone track that down!   But I think the humans were on Ashyn pre-shattering like was said by lots of people up there ^.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Nogo

[Treamayne]

28 minutes ago, Nogo said:

Tangent point -- I was just finishing up Oathbringer again and noticed that Sly explicitly says to Kaladin that Odium was the human god on Ashyn and then switched to the Singers on Roshar (pg 1202).  Though she also admits that she wasn't around then.

You mean this quote? (Oathbringer Ch 121)

Spoiler

“It’s true, then?” he finally said. “About the parshmen. That this was their land, their world, before we arrived? That … that we were the Voidbringers?”

She nodded. “Odium is the void, Kaladin. He draws in emotion, and doesn’t let it go. You … you brought him with you. I wasn’t alive then, but I know this truth. He was your first god, before you turned to Honor.”

Kaladin exhaled slowly, closing his eyes.

I think the key is the bolded section. Were there humans following Odium in the refugees? Probably. Was Odium, as a Shard, invested in Ashyn? Doubtful. Rayse's MO was to Splinter his rivals and move on without investing anywhere - and he didn't invest in the Roshar system until Honor trapped him there and he had no choice. 

It's more likely he manipulated in secret to cause the devastation on Ashyn, followed to Roshar, got trapped, then made the deal with the Singers to create the Fused for their battles (investing in Braize to do so). It's also likely that his appearance after following the refugees into what is now Shinovar, would have had the Singers make "the logical connection" to call him Humanity's (former) God - even if he had never invested in Ashyn or the humans there.

28 minutes ago, Nogo said:

Does everyone else already know the 10th and I was just lagging way behind?

Spoiler

You mean Venli?

But it still would not have been the normal 10 (since Shalash would have been a second Lightweaver). Dustbringers, Stonewards and Willshapers were the uncounted trio beyond the seven. Taln would have been the Stoneward and Venli the Willshaper. . .

Spoiler

Of course that could be a long-range Chekov's Gun planted to say that in the back five Shalash will bond a Spren like Nale, but not a Cryptic.

Maybe an Ashspren.

 

28 minutes ago, Nogo said:

Ruin and Preservation made their world and their humans... did they need a Dawnshard  for that?

There is no mention of them needing a Dawnshard in any of the WoBs about them creating Scadrial and the Humans on it (to mimic the humans from Yolen)

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Nogo]

Yes I meant Venli.  And dang you're right it was a double-up on lightweavers.   WTH.  I guess Matala or whomever was around tho too (in her clandestine operations).   

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

 

  Hide contents

“It’s true, then?” he finally said. “About the parshmen. That this was their land, their world, before we arrived? That … that we were the Voidbringers?”

She nodded. “Odium is the void, Kaladin. He draws in emotion, and doesn’t let it go. You … you brought him with you. I wasn’t alive then, but I know this truth. He was your first god, before you turned to Honor.”

Kaladin exhaled slowly, closing his eyes.

I think the key is the bolded section. Were there humans following Odium in the refugees? Probably. Was Odium, as a Shard, invested in Ashyn? Doubtful. Rayse's MO was to Splinter his rivals and move on without investing anywhere - and he didn't invest in the Roshar system until Honor trapped him there and he had no choice. 

I see your bolded section... and check.  I personally focused in on the "He was your first god" comment.  That was what really perked me up.  Yeah, the humans brought the void, but was he their god?   Syl says so, but I'm kinda on the fence.  Though I totally agree that Odium wasn't setting up a civilization or anything like that. You're right, his MO is not creating a nurtured wonderful society.  Lol it's funny to just picture that.  Anyways, it was the first god comment that got me going.  I'm not fully up to date on what exactly being one's god entails... it sounds simple enough until you make your brain hurt thinking about it.

As for the Dawnshard, I don't remember any references of one in Scandrial or anywhere except the obvious.   But I was jumping on the comment.  Is there something somewhere that says Shards would need a Dawnshard to create worlds.  Honestly I would think not given the amount of worlds out there, but y'all are all more up to date on stuff.  I just read books (and now ramble on this forum).

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, Nogo said:

  Is there something somewhere that says Shards would need a Dawnshard to create worlds.  Honestly I would think not given the amount of worlds out there, but y'all are all more up to date on stuff.  I just read books (and now ramble on this forum).

Not that I have found, and Scadrial wasn't the only Shard created planet (or, at least, it's been implied that Autonomy created Taldain).

Quote

I guess Matala or whomever was around tho too (in her clandestine operations).

Malata was at Urithiru. Oathbringer Ch 120:

Spoiler

“The Oathgates?” Renarin asked, hopeful. “Can they reach those, and open the way here?”

“Not likely. The enemy is holding the plateau.”

“Our armies have the advantage at Urithiru, Prince Renarin,” Teshav said. “Reports agree that the enemy strike force isn’t nearly large enough to defeat us there. This is obviously a delaying tactic to keep us from activating the Oathgate and bringing help to Thaylen City.”

Kadash nodded. “Those Fused above the Oathgate held even when the stone monster outside was falling. They know their orders—keep that device from being activated.”

“Radiant Malata is the only way for our armies to reach us through the Oathgate,” Teshav said. “But we can’t contact her, or any of the Kharbranth contingent. The enemy struck them first. They knew exactly what they had to do to cripple us.”

Of course, she was probably working with the Honorblade thief to let the Singers in to attack from Kholinar.

And they didn't expect Teft to earn his blade and ride to the rescue.

[Frustration he/him]

13 hours ago, Nogo said:

Ruin and Preservation made their world and their humans... did they need a Dawnshard  for that?  If so... that's very interesting.  Someone track that down!   But I think the humans were on Ashyn pre-shattering like was said by lots of people up there ^.

They didn't need a Dawnshard for that, the humans on Ashyn had at least one Dawnshard, which they used to burn the surface of the planet.

[Kendelian he/him]

Honor said that he was what humans called God. He never proclaimed himself as a god. I think that, aside from Scadrial, Adanolsium (or however you spell that name) created all of the humans in the Cosmere.