Gambling to Win the Royal Locks

[Trusk'our he/him]

In Warbreaker, Vivenna says that only those who are in line for the throne of Idris have the Royal Locks; even her children who wouldn't be in line wouldn't have them.

This has made me wonder, is it possible to get the Royal Locks through a method that isn't lineage (not Hemalurgy, we already know that's possible)?

Hypothetical scenario time; Let's say Hoid wants the Royal Locks, but clearly isn't born of the Idrian royal line. He travels to Idris and plays a game of cards with king Dedelin, pitting his (insert magical item here) against Dedelin's Kingdom. Hoid is very persuasive. Hoid (obviously) wins the game, and therefore wins the rulership of Idris.

Now the question I have is, does Hoid now exhibit the Royal Locks, or would the former king Dedelin still have them?

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

In Warbreaker, Vivenna says that only those who are in line for the throne of Idris have the Royal Locks; even her children who wouldn't be in line wouldn't have them.

Tbf, what does it mean "her children who aren't in line"? They are in line. If the heir dies (her brother) and all sisters as well, then if only Vivenna had kids, her kids will inherit the throne. That's it. They're in line whether they like it or not. Even if they gave up the throne, they can still inherit it if they change their mind and circumstances are right.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

This has made me wonder, is it possible to get the Royal Locks through a method that isn't lineage (not Hemalurgy, we already know that's possible)?

Denth had them, he is related to Vivenna and Siri. 

Spoiler

Questioner

You've stated before that Denth's ability to change is hair color is independent of him being Returned? So meaning he has the Royal Locks. Are Siri and Vivenna descended from him, or just a separate line of the same family tree?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO that. But he does have the Royal Locks, so you can at least assume that they're related, at the very least.

FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)

 

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Hypothetical scenario time; Let's say Hoid wants the Royal Locks, but clearly isn't born of the Idrian royal line. He travels to Idris and plays a game of cards with king Dedelin, pitting his (insert magical item here) against Dedelin's Kingdom. Hoid is very persuasive. Hoid (obviously) wins the game, and therefore wins the rulership of Idris.

Now the question I have is, does Hoid now exhibit the Royal Locks, or would the former king Dedelin still have them?

No. People have Royal Locks because of genetics, they are descendants of the First Returned Vo. If you don't have those genes, you can't have Royal Lock. I guess people who are distant descendants of Vo, but not in line to the throne and don't have Royal Locks, can likely activate them with sufficient training. Vasher told Vivenna that she can learn to change more than hair color and their length, others not closely related to the royal family can do the same if they know their heritage.

Edited April 29, 2023 by alder24

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

This has made me wonder, is it possible to get the Royal Locks through a method that isn't lineage (not Hemalurgy, we already know that's possible)?

Define "Royal Locks."

Define "lineage."

There are two possible reasons for the Royal Locks:

1. Any child of a Returned would have the ability to change their appearance due to their fragment of a divine breath - but while that is the origin of the "Royal Locks" (RL) the RL have a component of Intent and Connection attached (as expressed in the Idrian Lineage)
2. The RL are a specific expression of the descendants of Vo because they are the fragment of Divine Breath, as altered by Intent and Connection; therefore only this lineage can specifically express this version of that investiture.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

No. People have Royal Locks because of genetics, they are descendants of the First Returned Vo. If you don't have those genes, you can't have Royal Lock. I guess people who are distant descendants of Vo, but not in line to the throne and don't have Royal Locks, can likely activate them with sufficient training. Vasher told Vivenna that she can learn to change more than hair color and their length, others not closely related to the royal family can do the same if they know their heritage.

Maybe. It's (deliberately) unclear if the Royal Locks are because of Vo's Lineage or because that lineage happens to be children of Returned (and therefore any child of a returned will be able to use the fragment of divine breath they possess to change their appearance). WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher Explains Some Things, but Leaves Some Things Hidden

I'm worried about leaving Vivenna's two questions unanswered. One is pretty obvious—how Vasher can hide how he looks—but the other is unintuitive. I wish I could explain better in the book, as I said above, but I decided in the end to just leave it hanging. It's a bit of a violation of Sanderson's First Law, but not a big one. The reason I feel I can get away with it is because Vasher didn't use his nature as a Returned to solve any problems. It is more a flavoring for his character than it is important to him getting out of danger or fixing things. He could have done everything he needed to in this book without being Returned. So I feel it's okay not to explain why he can be Returned and not die when he gives away his Breaths.

Can Vivenna change her appearance more? She can indeed. She could actually stoke that fragment of a divine Breath inside of her and start glowing like a Returned. She can't change her physical features to look like someone else, but she can change her age, her height (within reason), and her body shape (to an extent). It takes practice.

And yes, the scraggly miscreant is how Vasher sees himself. Not noble and Returned, which is part of how he suppresses his divine Breath.

Quote

Kurkistan

Does Denth have the Royal Locks, independent of his being a Returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. (Good question.)

BeskarKomrk

You said in the Warbreaker annotations that Denth has the Royal Locks separate from being a Returned, as part of the royal line. Does Shashara also have the royal locks?

Brandon Sanderson

Um… That would be a valid guess.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

I did mention these things in the annotations, as has been pointed out, but boy--it's been a while. I don't remember what I wrote in the annotations and what I didn't.

All Returned are, in a way, "related" to the royal family in their Investiture. (The magic they hold.) Vasher has some specific and powerful control over his own powers, which I didn't go into much in the book. But if you delve into the annotations, you'll get more.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Only Potential Heirs of Idris Have Royal Locks

This is true. It's not a matter of genetics, but lineage. That's a subtle distinction. Only the children of the person who ends up inheriting will have the Royal Locks. (Though there are a couple of notable exceptions to this, they won't show up in this book, as it will take another novel to explain why and how the Royal Locks really work. If I ever write a sequel, that should be in it.)

This factoid about the Royal Locks should be one of several hints about the lineage of the Idrian crown. There is something odd about their heritage.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Treamayne

[Trusk'our he/him]

18 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Maybe. It's (deliberately) unclear if the Royal Locks are because of Vo's Lineage or because that lineage happens to be children of Returned (and therefore any child of a returned will be able to use the fragment of divine breath they possess to change their appearance). WoBs:

  Hide contents

 

 

The third quote is the one is the one I'm referring to in the OP. That and the one scene in Warbreaker where Vivenna talks about it.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

The third quote is the one is the one I'm referring to in the OP. That and the one scene in Warbreaker where Vivenna talks about it.

This section? Warbreaker Ch 22:

Spoiler

“Nice,” he finally said. “Nice indeed. Where’d you find her?”

Denth frowned. “What?”

“A person with enough royal blood to imitate one of the princesses.”

“She’s no impostor,” Denth said as Tonk Fah continued to work on the plate of fried somethings.

“Come now,” Grable said, smiling with a wide, uneven smile. “You can tell me.”

“It’s true,” Vivenna said. “Being royal is about more than just blood. It’s about lineage and the holy calling of Austre. My children will not have the Royal Locks unless I become queen of Idris. Only potential heirs have the ability to change their hair color.”

“Superstitious nonsense,” Grable said. 

 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Those not in line don’t “have the royal locks” because of Intent is my guess. Genetically they do but at their core they believe they don’t and therefore don’t activate them?

 

Thought it might be part of the collective belief of those around as well? Otherwise very young children would exhibit them unconsciously 

[Trusk'our he/him]

31 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

This section? Warbreaker Ch 22:

  Hide contents

“Nice,” he finally said. “Nice indeed. Where’d you find her?”

Denth frowned. “What?”

“A person with enough royal blood to imitate one of the princesses.”

“She’s no impostor,” Denth said as Tonk Fah continued to work on the plate of fried somethings.

“Come now,” Grable said, smiling with a wide, uneven smile. “You can tell me.”

“It’s true,” Vivenna said. “Being royal is about more than just blood. It’s about lineage and the holy calling of Austre. My children will not have the Royal Locks unless I become queen of Idris. Only potential heirs have the ability to change their hair color.”

“Superstitious nonsense,” Grable said. 

 

yes, that is the part. Sorry I couldn't find it earlier.

5 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Thought it might be part of the collective belief of those around as well? Otherwise very young children would exhibit them unconsciously 

Based on the fact that Returned's appearance is based on the cultural views of the populace, I'd say that this very well may be true.

Quote

Skyward San Francisco signing - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Mr Fancy

The Returned. When they come back, they appear really attractive. Is that based on their own idea of what's attractive, or society?

Brandon Sanderson

It is going to be society. But they are definitely having an influence over it, so let me say both in that case... Yeah, there could be a short, bald one. That is totally viable, but it's maybe what the person views as a societal ideal, how about that, an easier way to explain that.

So, it seems that the Royal Locks are a combination of Returned lineage (though not technically genetics) and the perception of the populace. I guess that means no gambling it away. Oh well.

[alder24]

Yeah, I'm not so sure about lineage after Vivenna said "the holy calling of Austre" as another reason. Perception is likely what matters here the most. Collective perception is also a good point.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

yes, that is the part. Sorry I couldn't find it earlier.

Based on the fact that Returned's appearance is based on the cultural views of the populace, I'd say that this very well may be true.

So, it seems that the Royal Locks are a combination of Returned lineage (though not technically genetics) and the perception of the populace. I guess that means no gambling it away. Oh well.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Yeah, I'm not so sure about lineage after Vivenna said "the holy calling of Austre" as another reason. Perception is likely what matters here the most. Collective perception is also a good point.

Don't forget that these WoBs and annotations are both before Sanderson disclosed sDNA; he may have been talking around concepts we didn't know at the time.

 

 

[Duxredux he/him]

TLM spoiler for an idea related to:

On 4/29/2023 at 11:26 AM, Treamayne said:

The RL are a specific expression of the descendants of Vo because they are the fragment of Divine Breath, as altered by Intent and Connection; therefore only this lineage can specifically express this version of that investiture.

Spoiler

We learn that it's possible to Awaken a door lock that knows through Intent if you were given the password legitimately or through illicit means. Could the condition that only legitimate potential heirs to the throne have the Royal Locks be by a similar mechanism? Perhaps the fragment of Divine Breath is aware enough or was anciently given a Command by Vo that prevents that Endowment of power to illegitimate progeny? Illegitimate children simple might not get any portion of that Divine Breath passed on to them because the Breath chooses not to go.

Notably, Vasher states that the Royal Locks are evidence that Vivenna has Returned blood in her, but none of the Returned have anywhere close to variability in coloration that those with the Royal Locks do, and Brandon has noted that Denth had the Royal Locks in addition to being Returned. They are separate yet related phenomenon, making me think that the Royal Locks are an intentional result from Vo.

 

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Duxredux said:

They are separate yet related phenomenon, making me think that the Royal Locks are an intentional result from Vo.

But also remember that in the annotation to the epilogue, Sanderson says:

Spoiler

Can Vivenna change her appearance more? She can indeed. She could actually stoke that fragment of a divine Breath inside of her and start glowing like a Returned. She can’t change her physical features to look like someone else, but she can change her age, her height (within reason), and her body shape (to an extent). It takes practice.

And yes, the scraggly miscreant is how Vasher sees himself. Not noble and Returned, which is part of how he suppresses his divine Breath.

Which makes me think it's less of a "Vo's descendant" thing and more of a "mortal born with Divine Breath (fragment)" thing. Throughout the story it also seems clear that the Returned in the Court of the Gods could change their appearance much more than the unconscious changes they currently experience if they ever realized it was possible and started working at the ability. 

[MouLik]

That's a really interesting hypothetical scenario you've presented. It's a unique way to try and acquire the Royal Locks! But I have to wonder - even if Hoid did manage to win the rulership of Idris through a game of cards, would that necessarily mean he would have the Royal Locks? From what Vivenna says in Warbreaker, it seems like the Royal Locks are tied to lineage, so it's possible that even if Hoid became the ruler of Idris, he wouldn't necessarily have the Locks.

[Trusk'our he/him]

6 hours ago, MouLik said:

That's a really interesting hypothetical scenario you've presented. It's a unique way to try and acquire the Royal Locks! 

Thank you! I appreciate the compliment 

6 hours ago, MouLik said:

But I have to wonder - even if Hoid did manage to win the rulership of Idris through a game of cards, would that necessarily mean he would have the Royal Locks? From what Vivenna says in Warbreaker, it seems like the Royal Locks are tied to lineage, so it's possible that even if Hoid became the ruler of Idris, he wouldn't necessarily have the Locks.

I'm thinking now that it probably wouldn't work, actually- the Idrian Royal Locks are tied to lineage (specifically that of Vo's human descendants), so they probably couldn't be given away via gambling or legal tricks.

I am starting to wonder though; could the Royal Locks be transferred as normal Breaths could, or would they be more like Divine Breaths where they instead turn into a super-boosted healing? Perhaps you could swing through some hoops (Connection or Identity manipulation) to do so if normal transfer doesn't work either.

Also, welcome to the 17th Shard!

Edited May 5, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I am starting to wonder though; could the Royal Locks be transferred as normal Breaths could, or would they be more like Divine Breaths where they instead turn into a super-boosted healing? Perhaps you could swing through some hoops (Connection or Identity manipulation) to do so if normal transfer doesn't work either.

Given what happens in Tress… I wouldn’t put it past being manipulatable in some way!

I think it’s probably too woven into sDNA to just transfer like Breath. Via Hemalurgy? Absolutely though. 

[Davidchoiser]

On 5/5/2023 at 2:29 PM, MouLik said:

That's a really interesting hypothetical scenario you've presented. It's a unique way to try and acquire the Royal Locks! But I have to wonder - even if Hoid did manage to win the rulership of Idris through a game of cards, would that necessarily mean he would have the Royal Locks? From what Vivenna says in Warbreaker, it seems like the Royal Locks are tied to lineage, so it's possible that even if Hoid became the ruler of Idris, he wouldn't necessarily have the Locks.

 

On 5/5/2023 at 9:01 PM, Trusk'our said:

Thank you! I appreciate the compliment 

I'm thinking now that it probably wouldn't work, actually- the Idrian Royal Locks are tied to lineage (specifically that of Vo's human descendants), so they probably couldn't be given away via gambling or legal tricks.

I am starting to wonder though; could the Royal Locks be transferred as normal Breaths could, or would they be more like Divine Breaths where they instead turn into a super-boosted healing? Perhaps you could swing through some hoops (Connection or Identity manipulation) to do so if normal transfer doesn't work either.

Also, welcome to the 17th Shard! 
Friends, I also thought about this question. Although trying to win Royal Castles through gambling may seem like an interesting idea, we must remember that it is a serious responsibility. It requires certain knowledge and I spend a lot of effort on this game. During my breaks, I started reading about luckytigercasino.com, found lucky tiger no deposit bonus and now I study it constantly. A couple just gets tired of playing. I want something new, but always when I look for it I come across something horrible.

While the shortcut through the game may seem appealing, we also need to consider what happens after we get those castles. How can we ensure the well-being of the people and maintain stability in the kingdom?

Edited April 26 by Davidchoiser

[Rorzikel]

On 4/29/2023 at 8:54 AM, Trusk'our said:

Hypothetical scenario time; Let's say Hoid wants the Royal Locks, but clearly isn't born of the Idrian royal line. He travels to Idris and plays a game of cards with king Dedelin, pitting his (insert magical item here) against Dedelin's Kingdom. Hoid is very persuasive. Hoid (obviously) wins the game, and therefore wins the rulership of Idris.

Now the question I have is, does Hoid now exhibit the Royal Locks, or would the former king Dedelin still have them?

Mistborn:

Spoiler

Do you think that you could win Allomancy in a card game? The whole concept makes little sense to me.