The Stick Posted May 3, 2023 Report Share Posted May 3, 2023 Brandon has said 9 secret societies operate on Roshar. I am trying to break down what they are. Ones we definitely know about: Ghostbloods Sons of Honor Skybreakers Diagram Seventeenth Shard Ones we probably know about: Oldbloods: Sanderson says these are a bunch of people descended from ancient Alethic kings who still stick together. Autonomy: Sanderson has said Autonomy has a presence on Roshar. It is almost inconceivable to think she has no presence on such a major planet. Possibilities: Silverlight?: Do Khriss and Nazh count. While it is likely they have presence on Roshar, this is not confirmed. However, we know from Hoid's letters that Silverlight Mercantile probably reaches Roshar. I have no idea for the last one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted May 3, 2023 Report Share Posted May 3, 2023 Sleepless? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Stick Posted May 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2023 You might be right with the whole protecting the Dawnshards plotline. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 3, 2023 Report Share Posted May 3, 2023 Sleepless for sure. The next one are those that Teft's parents belong to (Envisagers). Coppermind also mentions the Ire. That's 8 organizations named. One more to go. There is a Feruchemist not belonging to Ghostbloods, killed in RoW by Mraize (Gereh). There is also a Kandra on Roshar, not in service of Harmony. They might be part of another group. Spoiler starman2995 Who owned the red chicken, and what was its purpose? Brandon Sanderson The red chicken was owned by the Feruchemist who was keeping an eye on Dalinar in his house. YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) Spoiler Nextorl In The Lost Metal, MeLaan is said to be the first kandra Harmony sent off-world. Does that mean that the kandra on Roshar are not in Harmony's employment? Brandon Sanderson Yes! Good way to connect the dots. That is exactly what that means. R'Shara Brandon, you previously said the kandra on Roshar WAS an agent of Harmony. Brandon Sanderson Did I? *sounds uncertain* Well... I'm changing my mind. Yeah. No. I... uhh... Nope, not an agent of- I know exactly who this kandra is and what they're doing and yeah. I'm going to say I don't know why I said that before, but now, no. Footnote: R'Shara is referring to this WOB where Brandon says that the kandra is an agent of Sazed YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormingTexan he/him Posted May 3, 2023 Report Share Posted May 3, 2023 Seems like Cultivation would have a secret society of minions as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted May 4, 2023 Report Share Posted May 4, 2023 I don't think the Oldbloods are secret really. Sleepless ... yeah definitely. Envisagers - seems likely, though they may not be currently operating. Ire - also likely, though it's not clear if they really operate on Roshar; one guy sitting in a lighthouse might not count. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted May 4, 2023 Report Share Posted May 4, 2023 4 hours ago, alder24 said: The next one are those that Teft's parents belonged to (Envisagers). 1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said: Envisagers - seems likely, though they may not be currently operating. Aren't they related to the Sons of Honor? WoB: Spoiler Hessi's Ward Were the Sons of Honor a splinter group of the Envisagers? Brandon Sanderson RAFO, but let's just say you have the relationship backward. Would they be counted separately then? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted May 4, 2023 Report Share Posted May 4, 2023 I'd say they are different organizations even though they started as one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 4, 2023 Report Share Posted May 4, 2023 9 hours ago, Treamayne said: Aren't they related to the Sons of Honor? WoB: Reveal hidden contents Hessi's Ward Were the Sons of Honor a splinter group of the Envisagers? Brandon Sanderson RAFO, but let's just say you have the relationship backward. Would they be counted separately then? They probably originated from Sons of Honor, but have different goals and methods so they split into 2 separate organizations. 11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Ire - also likely, though it's not clear if they really operate on Roshar; one guy sitting in a lighthouse might not count. On Coppermind presence of the Ire is sourced by RoW ch 87. Not the OB lighthouse Elantrian. Now when I think about it, how about Worldsingers? They were founded by Hoid on Roshar and have several members, like Sizgil. There might be more of them, and aren't widely known. They might be the last group. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 he/him Posted May 4, 2023 Report Share Posted May 4, 2023 The Singer agents among the Parshendi Whoever Sixteen is a member of Whoever sent Azure possibly Ishar's secret service the people who smuggled in Odium's spren (like Ulim) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted May 4, 2023 Report Share Posted May 4, 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, alder24 said: They probably originated from Sons of Honor, but have different goals and methods so they split into 2 separate organizations. I'm not sure that a splinter group with few to no living members would count as a separate group Quote On Coppermind presence of the Ire is sourced by RoW ch 87. Not the OB lighthouse Elantrian. I'm also not sure that merchants in Shadesmar would count as a secret society on Roshar's Physical Realm. It doesn't disprove it either, but there is still no evidence of them in the PR as yet, so i hesitate to classify it as one of the nine. Quote Now when I think about it, how about Worldsingers? They were founded by Hoid on Roshar and have several members, like Sizgil. There might be more of them, and aren't widely known. They might be the last group. What makes you think they were founded on Roshar (Mistborn Spoilers) Spoiler Terris Worldbringers would indicate they were founded elsewhere long ago and influenced Scadrial before TLR's ascension. In fact, they may not have been founded by Hoid at all - he could have just been a member before the Shattering and is continuing the traditions. 5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: the people who smuggled in Odium's spren (like Ulim) Wasn't that the Sons of Honor trying to return the Desolations (via the Terriswoman working with Galavar on his journies to the Listeners). Edited May 4, 2023 by Treamayne Quote 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 4, 2023 Report Share Posted May 4, 2023 34 minutes ago, Treamayne said: I'm not sure that a splinter group with few to no living members would count as a separate group If they're alive and active, they are a separate group from the Sons of Honor. Different methods, different goals, different structures. And apparently Kaladin saw Envisagers in the storm, which I don't remember at all: Spoiler Hessi's Ward Were the Sons of Honor a splinter group of the Envisagers? Brandon Sanderson RAFO, but let's just say you have the relationship backward. Hessi's Ward What about the Selay Envisagers Kaladin saw while flying with the storm? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) 38 minutes ago, Treamayne said: I'm also not sure that merchants in Shadesmar would count as a secret society on Roshar's Physical Realm. It doesn't disprove it either, but there is still no evidence of them in the PR as yet, so i hesitate to classify it as one of the nine. I don't think it matters if the society is in the Cognitive or Physical Realm. Both Riino and traveling merchants form Lasting Integrity indicate the presence of Ire on Roshar. Plus this WoB outright confirms their activity on Roshar: Spoiler Questioner Why did the Elantrians came to Roshar in the first place? Because the question came up after I reread Elantris, so... Brandon Sanderson Are you talking about... specifically... the old ones? Yeah, why were they on Roshar? So, those specific individuals - the Ire, as we call them - are a group of Elantrians that are not representing all Elantrians. They were there. The one you've met is there for a specific reason. The Ire are involved there. They're mostly... where you've seen them, is on Scadrial so far, but they're interested in Roshar. You are talking about the lighthouse keeper, I assume? So, the lighthouse keeper, wouldn't... would be counted, I guess, as one of the Ire and is there for a specific purpose, but it is not related to their general purpose, that they're trying to achieve. How's that for being vague? I'm sorry. ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019) 55 minutes ago, Treamayne said: What makes you think they were founded on Roshar (Mistborn Spoilers) Ok, I’ve written it too hastily, but Hoid founded Worldsingers and they are not Worldbringers, but they have something in common. Spoiler Questioner Did Hoid join the Worldsingers just to learn about Roshar’s stories? Or is there something more going on there? Brandon Sanderson Hoid never joined the Worldsingers. (Can one join a group that one created, is the question there.) Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) Spoiler Questioner Worldbringers and Worldsingers, similar mission? Brandon Sanderson The similarity of the names is intentional. Questioner Similar origin? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Did Hoid start them? Brandon Sanderson That's a RAFO. That's a RAFO, but definitely they have a similar origin. Firefight San Francisco signing (Jan. 17, 2015) Ghostbloods weren't founded on Roshar, yet they operate on Roshar. If Worldsingers weren't founded on Roshar but still have operating members there, they can still count here. Both Hoid and Sizgil are operating there and there are also other members there. However the question remains if they are a secret society. From Coppermind: "In 1170, Shallan Davar thought that there might be a Worldsinger at the Middlefest Fair sponsored by her family. She knew what Worldsingers were like and seemed to find their presence relatively commonplace, implying that the group had been active in Jah Keved for some time.[3]" This suggests that they aren't secret but commonly known on Roshar. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sibling she/her Posted May 4, 2023 Report Share Posted May 4, 2023 (edited) Even if the Worldsingers were widely known they might have had secret goals and might have been doing stuff that the general public didn't know about. I have no reasoning to back this up other than the fact that they were founded by Hoid and he's usually up to something. I don't know if that would qualify them as a secret organisation or not, but I think that they are still a possibility. Sometimes WoBs are pretty vague so even though Brandon said there are nine secret societies maybe the Wolrdsingers could still count. Edited May 4, 2023 by The Sibling 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted May 4, 2023 Report Share Posted May 4, 2023 47 minutes ago, alder24 said: And apparently Kaladin saw Envisagers in the storm, which I don't remember at all: I think the wording on that WoB Question is awkward: Spoiler Quote Hessi's Ward What about the Selay Envisagers Kaladin saw while flying with the storm? Probably meant: Quote Hessi's Ward What about the Selay people Kaladin saw while flying with the storm - were they Envisagers? And, honestly, I can't find the passage they may be referencing. The closest I came to Kaladin seeing "Selay" in the storm-visions is this sentance in WoR Ch 32: Spoiler A vast lake going dry ahead of his arrival, the water retreating into holes in the rock beneath. The Selay peoples are descendants of the Sela Tales Silver Kingdom - what is currently the Pure Lake/Marabethia region. In the first Vision he saw Sesamalex Dar, but in neither vision did he focus on people (other than Szeth in the Tower) like Dalinar did in the RoW Storm Vision. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 4, 2023 Report Share Posted May 4, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Treamayne said: I think the wording on that WoB Question is awkward: Reveal hidden contents Probably meant: And, honestly, I can't find the passage they may be referencing. The closest I came to Kaladin seeing "Selay" in the storm-visions is this sentance in WoR Ch 32: Hide contents A vast lake going dry ahead of his arrival, the water retreating into holes in the rock beneath. The Selay peoples are descendants of the Sela Tales Silver Kingdom - what is currently the Pure Lake/Marabethia region. In the first Vision he saw Sesamalex Dar, but in neither vision did he focus on people (other than Szeth in the Tower) like Dalinar did in the RoW Storm Vision. Yeah, that might be the case, badly asked question. Edited May 4, 2023 by alder24 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBlue Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 Quote Aradel (paraphrased) I asked Brandon just how many secret societies were on Roshar. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) There are nine currently working. Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014) I assume this is the WOB being referred to? It is notable that this is from 2014, Brandon was answering a question off the cuff, and what exactly constitutes a ‘secret society’ can be arguable in some cases. TLDR: I don’t think we should take the number nine as gospel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 36 minutes ago, RedBlue said: I assume this is the WOB being referred to? It is notable that this is from 2014, Brandon was answering a question off the cuff, and what exactly constitutes a ‘secret society’ can be arguable in some cases. TLDR: I don’t think we should take the number nine as gospel. Yes, that's the WoB. It was during the release of WoR, that's why the number we're counting is valid for WoK/WoR, not RoW. In RoW the Sons of Honor and Diagram "stopped being active", Skybreaker and Sleepless "stopped being secret" (at least for important figures in the book), and Ghostbloods are targeted now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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