Squad fights

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

But throwing plague infected bodies is not a WMD.

I don't know that it can be said there would have been no black death without this event of throwing the bodies.  However it did kill 25million people in 4 years following that event. I think it fits a biological weapon of mass destruction. 

That is what is so spooky about bio weapons.  Once released you can't really control them... as we have figured out recently.  Whether a person believes covid was made as a weapon (a poor one at that).  Less than 7million people have died from covid out of nearly 8billion.  The black death from the years 1347-1351 killed 30-50% of Europe's population.  Though there is a very real argument that they had plague infected bodies already thus you can't say definitively it started from that battle.  The times line up and people fleeing that city who may have been infected via some of those bodies certainly accelerated the spread to other portions of the continent.  

Edit: 

This of course has nothing to do with seers and surgebinders.  

It is hard to specify an amount of investirure usable when the books don't specify it and every fight scene in the cosmere usually has the line, "Then his stormlight ran out." Which is promptly followed by the solution and he escapes death via plot armor anyway.  

Edited May 12, 2023 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[alder24]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Yeah, but Koloss don't fight smart, don't have Invested powers and don't heal.

There were 300,000 Koloss there, and only around 200 Seer (IIRC), that's 1500:1. Far more than 1:1. And Seers still fought for a considerable amount of time. 

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Which can be taken away by simple Reverse Lashing.
Any piece of equipment that is not aluminum can and will be taken away from Seer.

So useful, right? I wonder why Windrunners never used Reverse Lashing to disarm their opponents in books. Kaladin wouldn't have to fight them at all.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Seers are basically limited to non-metal weapons

Why? Why non-metal? Windrunners aren't coinshoters. Elend is. Elend would steelpush all of Windrunners weapons, leaving them only with their bare hands. So it's the opposite, Windrunners can't have any metal weapons, which severely limits their arsenal. No spears.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Good luck blocking deadly blow from a spear or sword with bare hands.

Or you can just dodge it...

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Why would Windrunner raise hand?
They hold sword/spear in front, and infuse the sword/spear with Reverse Lashing (or at least the handle). No need to raise hand or anything.
And again, they don't move it to where Seer would be, they hold it in front of them, and use Reverse Lashing to possibly drag Seer into it.

SImply hold the spear in front? Seer can grab it and close in to stab Windrunner outside of the spear's range. And if Windrunner never raises his arm to strike, Seer has much more openings despite RL on the spear. Or the second Seer stabs him in the back.

This is turning into what singular moves can both of them do to negate their opponent's singular move, which is stupid, as there are unlimited possibilities. What's the point of discussing how to swing a sword to avoid a spear? There are a multitude of possibilities, it's pointless to argue about that.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Greek fire and poisonous gas I grant you, thought those cannot be wielded by a single person

The gas was written to be on the top of a spear - that's a single person.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

But throwing plague infected bodies is not a WMD.

That's literally the definition of WMD: "a nuclear, biological, or chemical weapon able to cause widespread devastation and loss of life."

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Yeah, but my point is, we don't know how it was used.
Did she pull it out because they were loosing, and kill a thousand soldiers in ten minutes?
Did she run around for full fight? 
We don't know.

Per WoB: "Nightblood will be important to the outcome of the battle." - however Nightblood was used during that battle, he significantly contributed to the victory and the results of his usage were horrifying to Vasher. That's my point.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

But we know that Nightblood eats a lot of Investiture, and he eats more the longer he is drawn. Solely based on that, she probably could not have kept it drawn for hours on end.

Maybe she kept hiding it back in the sheath and drawing it again?  

Or she already had at least 9th Heightening necessary to create Nightblood, that's 20k Breaths at least. It could last for some time. Not likely it would last the entire battle.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Also, Vasher did not kill her just because he was horrified of what Nightblood and Shashara did, but because of what they did and because she wanted to share knowledge of how to make weapons like Nightblood.

There were two main reasons why Vasher did that - first one was the outcome of the battle, second one was Shashara willingness to spread the knowledge of creation type 4 entities. Both were very important. Without the first one, Vasher wouldn't be so terrified about the prospect of sharing the secret. Which is what the WoB said: "It's because of her insistence on using the sword in battle, and on giving away the secret to creating more, that Vasher and she fought."

 

[Frustration he/him]

21 hours ago, alder24 said:

I was excited, because I have WoK in English, but this page describes Kal waking up after being hung on Highstorm...

Um, no it isn't?

716 is in Szeth Interlude 9.

Quote

Another group came at Szeth from the side, and he drew Stormlight into his hand and flung it in a full lashing across the floor at their feet.

He also does it in the prologue.

[cometaryorbit]

On 5/10/2023 at 6:02 PM, Trusk'our said:

I think that Koloss would fare far better against Kalad's Phantoms than a human army- they are very strong, and they use their "swords" more like maces than bladed weaponry, so with 10 to 1, I think the Koloss would easily trump the Phantoms.

Marsh has more physical enhancements and powers than Vasher, including the ability to fly, use a limited form of telekinesis, and regenerate from most non-Invested attacks.

However, Vasher has hundreds of years of skill, and he has Nightblood. Now, that wouldn't be an automatic win, but if Vasher can drop Nightblood for the Koloss to use, I think that they would be particularly susceptible to its influence (they're already bloodthirsty, even without having their Spiritwebs cracked open to outside influence).

I think that if Vasher were to play his cars right and dump Nightblood into the midst of Marsh's army that the Koloss would kill themselves while his Phantoms protect him from the others. Marsh himself might be particularly vulnerable to Nightblood's emotional influence due to the large number of spikes he has.

So basically, if Vasher is smart (which he is), he probably wins. Unless Marsh has Atium, in which case he might be able to overwhelm Vasher, Nightblood notwithstanding.

I have to agree; the Fused are an absolute joke of an enemy. When Kaladin was being chased by the Pursuer my only thought was, "how is it that this idiot is so feared? How on Roshar has he- apparently- been able to consistently kill Radiants throughout the history of the Desolations?"

I agree. The koloss would be better off with hammers, but their swords are described as crushing as much as cutting, and their strength is extreme (far more than Pewter Allomancy or Radiants with Stormlight, probably well above Warform singers, though less than Shardplate). And Kalad's Phantoms aren't pure solid stone statues - they are jointed.

At 10:1 numbers advantage koloss will smash them apart, though the koloss will take a lot of losses.

--

Marsh at the end of HoA has an absurd power set, though he maybe doesn't know Compounding yet? Even without that, though... a hit with Nightblood would kill him, but he's got much better mobility than Vasher. Vasher's Awakened clothes would help against coins, but enough to save him? I don't know. Especially since Marsh can use duralumin... a duralumin Steelpush coin should break through Vasher's defenses. He can use F-Steel to keep his distance rather than Allomantic jumps, so duralumin won't make him nearly as vulnerable as it would a normal Mistborn.

Marsh thankfully doesn't have Atium at the end of HoA; if he did, he could just effortlessly dodge Nightblood's blade and one hit kill Vasher.

--

Nightblood emotional influence: Well, is this Marsh under Ruin's control? If so, Nightblood isn't going to beat that - Vin powered by the Mists barely broke through, and even then she didn't really get full control. Even outside Ruin's control, if Marsh is aware that Nightblood can do that, he can burn copper.

Throwing Nightblood into uncontrolled koloss would kill them as they fought over it, but only one or two at a time, so it'd be slow against this large a number of koloss - and as soon as Vasher throws it Marsh can kill him with impunity. But Marsh has duralumin Allomancy, so he can control koloss, which might make them immune (depends on relative strength).

--

I don't know that the Pursuer consistently killed Radiants - he probably didn't (at least not full powered Radiants). In the early Desolations there were no Radiants at all, and even once the Radiant-type Nahel bond started appearing they don't seem to have immediately been quite the same as current Radiants. I think the final Radiant Orders were very late in the Desolations.

On 5/11/2023 at 10:22 AM, Trusk'our said:

Wouldn't their Surgebinding count as a form of muscle memory? I don't see how they could forget to move their body around but still remember perfectly how to use their powers.

Kaladin is a little over 24 Earth years old, if I'm correct. That still puts him at an enormous disadvantage in terms of experience against any Fused, yet he still consistently beats them.

Yeah, that's kind of how I feel about them honestly.

That's something else that's really bothered me; how is it that the Heralds are so skilled compared to the Fused?

The Fused get different bodies each time, the Heralds get the same one back. I think that could make a significant difference for muscle memory. But I don't think it's the main factor.

I think the main factors are:

1. Kaladin just isn't a fair comparison, I don't think. He's basically a prodigy, an extreme natural talent, world-class. I think the comparison to Olympic athletes that age is fair. And that's before the "perfecting" effects of Stormlight.

(Which - does Voidlight do that? That could be one major disadvantage for the Fused. I'm not sure they do have that same "grace" or "perfection" advantage, given Leshwi dying to Moash with a normal blade.

A lot of Fused also seem careless of death - whereas, for the Heralds, it's a huge problem... but they can still learn from it. So Heralds probably benefit from their experience more.)

2. Fused powers are so far inferior to those of 3rd+ Ideal Radiants that even a vast experience gap can't make up for it.

a. Radiants get two Surges, Fused only get one. Radiants also get combination effects (Reverse Lashing for Windrunners... maybe Shallan's making her illusions more solid at Thaylen Field for Lightweavers?) and Resonances because they have two. Windrunners get all Three Lashings, Heavenly Ones only have Basic Lashings. In some cases the Radiants are just more powerful too! (Windrunner Basic Lashings allow higher acceleration than Heavenly Ones' versions).

b. Radiants get live, morphing Shardblades "for free" at 3rd ideal, Fused don't... and many (most?) of them have trouble using existing deadblades because of the screaming.

c. Fused healing is vastly worse. One hit to the gemheart = death regardless of healing, for a Fused. 3rd ideal Shallan survives crossbow bolt to the brain... and that's actually fairly unimpressive as Radiants go. 3rd not quite 4th ideal Kaladin heals incredibly fast from spine wounds, within seconds probably - this seems vastly better, probably because he's almost 4th ideal. 3rd ideal Renarin survives being stomped by a thunderclast and is up almost instantly ... but Renarin is weird.

d. At 4th ideal, Radiants get Plate and it becomes even more crazily one-sided.

In contrast, the Fused have one advantage - better Light efficiency. Which can be super important, but not when Dalinar is around.

On 5/11/2023 at 10:47 AM, therunner said:

Two are enough, Seer cannot defend both from front and back.

They absolutely can. A couple hundred Seers survived hours against 300,000 koloss. Being outnumbered isn't nearly enough to beat atium. Atium lets an Allomancer react to attacks from behind, even if they don't actually see the shadow - they will instinctively dodge anyway.

Yeah, atium isn't absolutely unbeatable- but it's a colossal advantage. Just because Vin (who is extremely exceptional) was able to defeat it once doesn’t make that a normal thing.

The mobility/grace advantage of Stormlight isn't much in this context - Elend was burning lerasium strength pewter and Yomen not only dodged him and struck back, but did it effortlessly.

Edited May 12, 2023 by cometaryorbit
spacing

[therunner he/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

So useful, right? I wonder why Windrunners never used Reverse Lashing to disarm their opponents in books. Kaladin wouldn't have to fight them at all.

Relatively simple, all Radiants are only rediscovering their powers and how to properly use them, they literally have no teachers.
Until RoW Windrunners clearly focused on Basic Lashing to near exclusion of all else, including Full and Reverse Lashings.

When force into using them however, Kaladin discovered bunch of uses quite fast. Not sure why we should assume Squires are not familiar with their powers.

Similarly Vin never established steel bubble, simply because she did not discover the technique, nor had teacher that would show it to her.

Quote

Why? Why non-metal? Windrunners aren't coinshoters. Elend is. Elend would steelpush all of Windrunners weapons, leaving them only with their bare hands. So it's the opposite, Windrunners can't have any metal weapons, which severely limits their arsenal. No spears.

Typo, I meant non-aluminum. So Seers cannot have anything not made out aluminum, which is prohibitavely expansive and/or rare (depending on Era).
Conversely, Windrunners can use any non-metal weapon (e.g. staves, or rock tipped spears).

And yes, Elend would push the weapons of Squires away, and those Squires could easily collect them (either simply fly to them, or use Reverse Lashing). Afterwards, they could either snap of the metallic head, or use Full Lashing to simply glue spear to hand (though I would not recommend that option).
 

Quote

Or you can just dodge it..

And that is why I repeatedly stress the importance of using Full Lashing to partially immobilize Seer.
Not so easy to dodge when your legs are glued to ground.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

SImply hold the spear in front? Seer can grab it and close in to stab Windrunner outside of the spear's range. And if Windrunner never raises his arm to strike, Seer has much more openings despite RL on the spear. Or the second Seer stabs him in the back.

How can Seer grab it when they are out of range?
The goal is to use Reverse Lashing when Seer is just outside of range of the spear to forcibly impale them, quicker then they can react (and since there will be no Atium shadow to react to, they are limited to their own reflexes).

Quote

This is turning into what singular moves can both of them do to negate their opponent's singular move, which is stupid, as there are unlimited possibilities. What's the point of discussing how to swing a sword to avoid a spear? There are a multitude of possibilities, it's pointless to argue about that.

Fair, So I will describe how i think the fight would go and you can poke holes:
 

1. The battle opens, Squires use their superior mobility to encircle Seers and Elend, and use Full Lashing to establish perimeter.
2. At the same time, a few of Squires (5-10 should be enough), use Reverse Lashings to strip Seers of weapons, shields. Some of those should also start and maintain Reverse Lashing to draw coins to it, to limit Elend.
   1. Sidenote: What would happen if you Reverse Lashed armor someone is wearing? Armor is not touching the ground, so the person should get dragged? 
3. At the same time, Elend is stripping Squires of their weapons, some Squires might try to gather them back, after snapping of metallic heads from spears. If successful, Squires have at least staves.
4. Squires that established perimeter begin closing in, bolstered by the rest of the Squires. Seers (now weapon less) cannot afford to close in, since they would get stuck in the Full Lashing. As they are getting closer they reclaim Stormlight from the perimeter behind them (now useless). This proceeds until the first Seer gets trapped.
5. Once Seers start getting trapped, at most 3 squires gang up on him and kill/eliminate him. (Seer is limited to block solely via hands, so 3 squires are enough to break his legs, since Seer simply cannot block more than 2 simultaneous attacks at once).  This repeats until Seer's are dead. Squires can use either the wood from their spears, or any rocks they happen to find (or spheres).
6. As this is going on, Kaladin is keeping Elend busy (straffing runs?), supported by 1 squire (who maintains Reverse Lashing pulling on Elend, so that Elend cannot afford to leave ground, lest he be pulled into Full lashing and trapped.)
7. Once enough Seers's are dead, close in to Elend, trap him with Full Lashing (since he cannot jump away that would be as easy as any other Seer), and then kill him since he has no way to block Shardblade, and can no longer dodge (if need be cut him up from ankles up).

Wild card for Seer side here is Elend, who could cause issues primarily via Rioting and Soothing, especially paired with Duralumin.
However, since most of the tactics on Squire side are to slowly walk towards Seers while setting up Full Lashing on ground, there are limited ways to disrupt them.

Please, point out flaws in my reasoning. And i don't think saying Squires don't have enough Stormlight is valid reason, they have enough for 1 hour full stop.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Or she already had at least 9th Heightening necessary to create Nightblood, that's 20k Breaths at least. It could last for some time. Not likely it would last the entire battle.

There were two main reasons why Vasher did that - first one was the outcome of the battle, second one was Shashara willingness to spread the knowledge of creation type 4 entities. Both were very important. Without the first one, Vasher wouldn't be so terrified about the prospect of sharing the secret. Which is what the WoB said: "It's because of her insistence on using the sword in battle, and on giving away the secret to creating more, that Vasher and she fought."

And that is entirely my point, usage of Nightblood was not the sole reason for Vasher to kill her, and we don't know how long she used Nightblood for, hence we cannot say how much Breathes she must have held, however it must have been large amount.

So large in fact, that Vashed can use those Breaths much more effectively when fighting Marsh then simply by fueling NIghtblood.

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

They absolutely can. A couple hundred Seers survived hours against 300,000 koloss. Being outnumbered isn't nearly enough to beat atium. Atium lets an Allomancer react to attacks from behind, even if they don't actually see the shadow - they will instinctively dodge anyway.

Seer who is glued to ground with Full Lashing (with weapons/shield taken away via Reverse Lashing) can be taken out by 3 people at most, they have only 2 hands, so they physically cannot block more than 2 attacks at once, and they cannot dodge strikes to their legs (where large veins are located).
Once restricted like that, Seer goes down very fast.

Quote

Yeah, atium isn't absolutely unbeatable- but it's a colossal advantage. Just because Vin (who is extremely exceptional) was able to defeat it once doesn’t make that a normal thing.

Yeah, Vin's tactics relies on luck, that is why I would not want to use it unless necessary.
However it demonstrates important limitation of Atium, if you base your action on reaction or simply don't take visible action, Atium is basically useless.

Quote

The mobility/grace advantage of Stormlight isn't much in this context - Elend was burning lerasium strength pewter and Yomen not only dodged him and struck back, but did it effortlessly.

I would note that primary benefit of Pewter is strength. There is not much to suggest that Elend is noticeably more graceful than Vin is.
Regarding agility those two enhancements seem to be on par.


Additional question on Atium, would it show shadows for liquids/gasses?

For gases I would say no, simply because air does not leave any shadows (that would be very confusing ) . This is probably same reason why Steelsight does not let you see trace amounts of metal/individual atoms.
However, liquied are open question.

This is important, since Stormlight has properties of both gas and liquid, so there is a possibility that Stormlight would not leave Atium shadows based on this argument.

Edited May 12, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

29 minutes ago, therunner said:

Relatively simple, all Radiants are only rediscovering their powers and how to properly use them, they literally have no teachers.

Did Szeth ever use it in that way? Did he use it to draw people together? Did he reverse lash weapons out of their hands? I don't remember. 

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

And that is why I repeatedly stress the importance of using Full Lashing to partially immobilize Seer.
Not so easy to dodge when your legs are glued to ground.

And that's why I’m repeatedly pointing out that you can't use Full Lashing on the Seer in melee, or most other situations, other than the one mentioned by Frustration in the beginning. They see the future, they won't get glued to the ground.

12 minutes ago, therunner said:

• The battle opens, Squires use their superior mobility to encircle Seers and Elend, and use Full Lashing to establish perimeter.

The end. That's the scenario that Seers can fight against.

But tbf, how wide would that perimeter be to prohibit Seers from escaping? 2m? At least. The record for olympic long jump is 7-9 meters depending on sex. Even assuming that Elend's soldiers would be able to jump 5 meters ahead, Windrunners would have to draw at least 6 m thick line of Full Lashing. Even more as Elend can just push them out with steel.

And there are 51 Windrunners. How far away from Seers would they have to draw the very thick perimeter, all 51 Windrunners at once, to prevent then from escaping by simply running from the center in between the gaps before Windrunners finish their thick circle? The Olympic record for 100 m is 9.6 seconds for a man, and 10.6 for a woman. Let's assume they can run 100 m in 12 seconds, that means that 51 Windrunners would have to draw a line 6 meters thick, being 628.2 meters long on the inside and 666 meters long on the outside of the circle. Average 647.1 meters long. Each Windrunner would have to draw a 12.7 meter long line, 6 meters thick, that's the area of 67.1 m^2 to be fully covered by "hand-brush" in 12 seconds, before Seers just run in between gaps or jump over. And that still doesn't count for Elend just steel pushing them across, with a single push. I'm starting to get a bit skeptical of this scenario.

[therunner he/him]

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Did Szeth ever use it in that way? Did he use it to draw people together? Did he reverse lash weapons out of their hands? I don't remember.

Reverse Lashing pulls stuff to it, why would it to not be possible to use it to pull on people (outside of being weaker because they are on ground).
We literally see it tear a head off 
Same for weapons.

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The end. That's the scenario that Seers can fight against.

How, please describe.

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But tbf, how wide would that perimeter be to prohibit Seers from escaping? 2m? At least. The record for olympic long jump is 7-9 meters depending on sex. Even assuming that Elend's soldiers would be able to jump 5 meters ahead, Windrunners would have to draw at least 6 m thick line of Full Lashing. Even more as Elend can just push them out with steel.

1-2 meters is enough, and that is within their scope.
If Seers try to jump, Reverse Lash them. So you would probably want few Squires to maintain those Reverse Lashings.
And jumping even 5 meters would require quite long running start, where Seer could not dodge, not smart.
And if they are in armor, they would be lucky to jump even 1-2 meters.

How will Elend push them out and not maim them? That is a bit ridiculous suggestion.
And even so, they would end up in air, again vulnerable to Reverse Lashing (and without ability to dodge).

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And there are 51 Windrunners. How far away from Seers would they have to draw the very thick perimeter, all 51 Windrunners at once, to prevent then from escaping by simply running from the center in between the gaps before Windrunners finish their thick circle? The Olympic record for 100 m is 9.6 seconds for a man, and 10.6 for a woman. Let's assume they can run 100 m in 12 seconds, that means that 51 Windrunners would have to draw a line 6 meters thick, being 628.2 meters long on the inside and 666 meters long on the outside of the circle. Average 647.1 meters long. Each Windrunner would have to draw a 12.7 meter long line, 6 meters thick, that's the area of 67.1 m^2 to be fully covered by "hand-brush" in 12 seconds, before Seers just run in between gaps or jump over. And that still doesn't count for Elend just steel pushing them across, with a single push. I'm starting to get a bit skeptical of this scenario.

Depends on how clustered they are, if there is roughly 5 m^2 square per person, than you need only something like 25 Squires to establish circular perimeter of radius 15 meters. (each squire would create a Full Lashing patch a bit larger than 1,5 meter in radious).

Edit: And if somehow Seers just start sprinting in straight line, they are relatively easy targets, i.e. they would not be able to just sprint in straight line.
And if they somehow escpae like that, now Seers are isolated in small groups that can be destroyed one at a time.
Also, Seers don't have superhuman stamina, they would be quite tired after sprinting for 12 seconds.

So if they decide to sprint away, just wait 1 minute before they are too tired to move, and encircle them then. So after a minute

• Either they all ran in the same direction, in which case the scenario can proceed as I outlined.
• Or they ran in smaller clusters in different direction, in which case they are now separated by at least ~400 meters, so Windrunners can focus on the groups individiually (starting with the ones without Elend)
• Or all Seers ran in different directions, in which case they are again now separated by 100 meters (or more), and Windrunner can go in groups of 3-4 after individual Seers, using similar tactics to trap them in Full Lashing (encircle, drop Full Lashing). Full Lashing serves as complete area of denial, so other Seers would not be able to help (even if they somehow got close enough fast enough).

Windrunner are faster, don't tire and more dexterous, so encircling Seer's won't be a problem.

I don't think your counterarguments are as strong as you think.

Edited May 12, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration he/him]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Did Szeth ever use it in that way? Did he use it to draw people together? Did he reverse lash weapons out of their hands? I don't remember. 

"We didn't see it so it isn't possible"

We also don't see Atium show light sources, yet that somehow is assumed to be the case.

 

It is not only well within what we know reverse lashings to be capable of, it would actually change what we know about reverse lashings if they weren't

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, therunner said:

Reverse Lashing pulls stuff to it, why would it to not be possible to use it to pull on people (outside of being weaker because they are on ground).
We literally see it tear a head off 
Same for weapons.

Used by a person with his eyes glowing in glod and red. That's why I'm skeptical about RL power.

15 minutes ago, therunner said:

How, please describe.

Can't. I'm eating the ends.

15 minutes ago, therunner said:

1-2 meters is enough, and that is within their scope.

They can make a step through a 1 meter line, hop through 2 meters. That's not enough.

16 minutes ago, therunner said:

If Seers try to jump, Reverse Lash them. So you would probably want few Squires to maintain those Reverse Lashings.

On a circle, 100 meters in radius? 647 meters long? Few? That's a big area to cover by "few" squires. And every squire taken away from painting, means more painting for each one remaining, which makes it more unreasonable.

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

And jumping even 5 meters would require quite long running start, where Seer could not dodge, not smart.

Windrunners are busy painting and Seers can dodge while running. What are you talking about? Football players can dodge while running with the ball. No problem.

20 minutes ago, therunner said:

And if they are in armor, they would be lucky to jump even 1-2 meters.

It's not that heavy... They don't have plate armor. Tbf, Brandon's soldiers rarely have any armor at all...

22 minutes ago, therunner said:

How will Elend push them out and not maim them? That is a bit ridiculous suggestion.

He can quickly squat and push them by metal objects they have on them, belt, armor, sheathed sword held in their hands. Whatever. A shotgun is enough, sword will be as well. Not by throwing coins at them...

26 minutes ago, therunner said:

Depends on how clustered they are, if there is roughly 5 m^2 square per person, than you need only something like 25 Squires to establish circular perimeter of radius 15 meters. (each squire would create a Full Lashing patch a bit larger than 1,5 meter in radious).

I can make a step 1.5 meters long, and I'm not that athletic. Step, without taking my foot off the ground. 15 meters away? Seers will see them drawing the line with Atium Shadow and run away from that parameter before "the paint" hits the ground. They need less than 2 seconds to run that distance. Plus 50 men would already almost cover that entire area of the circle, or most of it, so they're even closer to the edge.

31 minutes ago, therunner said:

And if somehow Seers just start sprinting in straight line, they are relatively easy targets, i.e. they would not be able to just sprint in straight line.

Slalom is a thing... You can turn while running, make steps to the side. I don't know how you get the idea that they need to run in a straight line.

33 minutes ago, therunner said:

And if they somehow escpae like that, now Seers are isolated in small groups that can be destroyed one at a time.

While the others would need only 4 seconds of running to get to the group that is attacked from the other side of the circle.

35 minutes ago, therunner said:

Also, Seers don't have superhuman stamina, they would be quite tired after sprinting for 12 seconds.

No, but they're soldiers, they have far greater stamina than an average person.

36 minutes ago, therunner said:

So if they decide to sprint away, just wait 1 minute before they are too tired to move, and encircle them then.

1 minute? They need 12 seconds to escape the 100m circle and have 48 seconds to rest. Enough. I can run as fast as I could for 100 m and still be in good shape afterwards. Just please.

 

36 minutes ago, Frustration said:

"We didn't see it so it isn't possible"

I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm asking a question.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

They can make a step through a 1 meter line, hop through 2 meters. That's not enough.

College long jumpers are hitting the 2 meter mark, I'd be surprised if they could manage it with any reliability.

[Immortal Platypus]

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, but they're soldiers, they have far greater stamina than an average person.

Were they soldiers or were they conscripted? I don't remember for sure, but if they were conscripted they'd probably have only a little bit more stamina than normal people. And that's just because of the marches and any fighting they did beforehand.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Being of Cacophony

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

College long jumpers are hitting the 2 meter mark, I'd be surprised if they could manage it with any reliability.

Weird, because a quick google search tells me that recruiting standards for college are like 20 feets in long jump. I jumped further than 2m in high school. I don't have time to read into it more: https://www.athleticsrecruiting.com/trackandfieldrecruitingstandards.html - https://www.ncsasports.org/mens-track-and-field/scholarship-standards

3 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

Were they soldiers or were they conscripted? I don't remember for sure, but if they were conscripted they'd probably have only a little bit more stamina than normal people. And that's just because of the marches and any fighting they did beforehand.

Many were. Demoux is one with them that's a soldier for at least 2-3 years. Elend was leading campaigns for a year before HoA. They had enough time to train and develop. His army was shown to be well trained and organized during the Fadrex siege. Those Seers were in his army for at least a year, some longer, as many soldiers from Luthadel's garrison were paid to join Elend's army after TFE. Plus after WoA, a well trained and experienced army of Cett and Straff joined Elend.

[Immortal Platypus]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Many were. Demoux is one with them that's a soldier for at least 2-3 years. Elend was leading campaigns for a year before HoA. They had enough time to train and develop. His army was shown to be well trained and organized during the Fadrex siege. Those Seers were in his army for at least a year, some longer, as many soldiers from Luthadel's garrison were paid to join Elend's army after TFE. Plus after WoA, a well trained and experienced army of Cett and Straff joined Elend.

so soldiers anywhere from 1 year to... several? ok, i can believe that some would have a lot of stamina, but I'd say the majority of Seers would be from 1 year to 3 years. I say this because I'd guess lifespan as a medieval soldier isn't very high. so some added stamina, but not too much. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're the squire and you see the Seer that managed to get out of the circle stop running, you're going to chase him. You're faster and tire less because of Stormlight, so they'll get tired and you can pick them off. The run for 12 seconds than rest for 48 idea wouldn't work.

[Frustration he/him]

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Weird, because a quick google search tells me that recruiting standards for college are like 20 feets in long jump. I jumped further than 2m in high school. I don't have time to read into it more: https://www.athleticsrecruiting.com/trackandfieldrecruitingstandards.html - https://www.ncsasports.org/mens-track-and-field/scholarship-standards

I did standing long jump... they would have a running start.

oh well, a Revers lashing can pull them down all the same.

 

[Duxredux he/him]

If we assume pre-existing knowledge, then my question is if Elend while loaded to the gills with Atium can take out Kaladin while a bunch of squires either gang up on him or get in the way. If he can, squires lose their powers and will become fodder for the Seers. If Elend as a Mistborn can't, no Seer or group of Seers will be able to take out Kaladin. Kaladin and Elend are the lynchpins, if either go down, their side loses.

I'm really not sure. If Elend steps back and uses a Duralumin enhanced Atium burn at the start before replenishing, and can see far enough into the Spiritual Realm, that might be enough to tip it in his favor.

[alder24]

35 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're the squire and you see the Seer that managed to get out of the circle stop running, you're going to chase him. You're faster and tire less because of Stormlight, so they'll get tired and you can pick them off. The run for 12 seconds than rest for 48 idea wouldn't work.

They don't need to run away, as soon as they are out of the Full Lashing parameter, they can reorganized and regroup. There is 50 of them, not 1, and 50 Windrunners. If several Windrunners will attack a single Seer, several Seers will attack a single Windrunner, or immediately run to help him. Plus even when tired it took a long time, hours, for Seers in HoA to finally get killed, some were killed while still burning Atium, most after Atium run out. Many made several trips back to cave entrances to get more Atium. They were fighting tirelessly 300000 Koloss. And they began that fight by running to the Koloss lines. So yes, they will be fine after running for 12 seconds, and will be able to avoid attacts of several Windrunners at once. HoA ch 81:

Quote

A group of soldiers in Elend's colors burst from the cavern entrance, charging. Like a wave of light, their forms exploded with power. They, too, moved into the koloss ranks, striking with incredible precision. Not a single one of them fell as Vin watched. They fought with miraculous skill and fortune, each koloss blade falling just a little too late. Blue corpses began to pile up around the glowing force of men.
Somehow, Elend had found an entire army who could burn atium.

Elend was a god.
He'd never burned atium before, and his first experience with the metal filled him with wonder. The koloss around him all emitted atium shadows—images that moved before they did, showing Elend exactly what they would do. He could see into the future, if only a few seconds. In a battle, that was just what one needed.
He could feel the atium enhancing his mind, making him capable of reading and using all of the new information. He didn't even have to pause and think. His arms moved of their own volition, swinging his sword with awesome precision
[...]
Elend sheared through two heads at once, dropping the koloss. He spun his blade, taking off an arm, then stabbed another koloss through the neck. He hadn't seen that one approaching, but his mind had seen and interpreted the atium shadow before the real attack came.
Already he stood atop of carpet of blue corpses. He did not stumble. With atium, his every step was exact, his blade guided, his mind crisp. He took down a particularly large koloss, then stepped back, pausing briefly.
The sun crested the horizon in the east. It started to grow hotter.
They had been fighting for hours
[...]
Elend began to back toward the cavern. There were just so many koloss. His band of two hundred and eighty had slain thousands, yet the koloss didn't care. They kept attacking, a brutal wave of endless determination, resisted only by the pockets of atium Mistings protecting each of the entrances to the Homeland.
Another man died. They were running out of atium.
Elend screamed, swinging his sword about him, taking down three koloss in a maneuver that never should have worked.

Edit:

1 minute ago, Duxredux said:

If we assume pre-existing knowledge, then my question is if Elend while loaded to the gills with Atium can take out Kaladin while a bunch of squires either gang up on him or get in the way. If he can, squires lose their powers and will become fodder for the Seers. If Elend as a Mistborn can't, no Seer or group of Seers will be able to take out Kaladin. Kaladin and Elend are the lynchpins, if either go down, their side loses.

I'm really not sure. If Elend steps back and uses a Duralumin enhanced Atium burn at the start before replenishing, and can see far enough into the Spiritual Realm, that might be enough to tip it in his favor.

I haven't considered this. While For Windrunners Kal is a glue holding them together, for Seers that's not the case - every one of them have their powers independently from Elend and have their own stack of Atium. Elend can die and the rest will still fight. 

I will say that it is hard to kill Kaladin, because he has a Shardblade, that's the first problem, the second is efficient healing, compared to squires. It really depends if decapitation would immediately kill him, which is unlikely I have to admit. It would take some time to kill Kaladin, It's possible with Atium, but with that amount of Stormlight they have, it will take some time to exhaust his supply.

Using duralumin enhanced Atium will not kill Kaladin, as he can heal. Therefore there is no reason for Elend to use it. And Elend with Atium can dodge almost everything that others throw at him - for an hour.

Edited May 12, 2023 by alder24

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

They don't need to run away, as soon as they are out of the Full Lashing parameter, they can reorganized and regroup. There is 50 of them, not 1, and 50 Windrunners. If several Windrunners will attack a single Seer, several Seers will attack a single Windrunner, or immediately run to help him. Plus even when tired it took a long time, hours, for Seers in HoA to finally get killed, some were killed while still burning Atium, most after Atium run out. Many made several trips back to cave entrances to get more Atium.

If they are running as large group, or trying to reorganize, Windrunners can match speed from air, surround them in air, and then drop down at once and trap them.

It does not matter if they see 3 second into future (which is probably Elend level sight, and Seers would see less far), they cannot move more than ~20-30 meters in those 3 seconds, so you can herd them as needed. Windrunners in front drop down and put down Full Lashing, Seers started to steer 2-3 seconds beforehand, to which Windrunner tracking them from sides react and drop down and put down Full Lashing.
If they are at least 30 meters away from the Seer group, Seers are now trapped.

To clarify the order of events is, Seers start to dodge because Windrunners in front of them are about to drop down (but have not yet started), as a reaction to that change in direction, Windrunners in that direction drop down and put down Full Lashing, blocking Seers from escaping. As this is happening ,the first group of Windrunners (the one that triggered Seers) is now descending and blocking of that path. Repeat for any other direction of escape.

Edit: I'll note that per TFE, when Vin burns Atium, she sees about a single second into the future. Flare could probably push that to 1,5 seconds or so. So Seers most likely cannot see more than 1,5 seconds into future, since Vin is unusually strong Allomancer (which translates into seeing further).
Hence, Windrunners have to stay merely 15 meters away to be able to herd and stop Seers from running away.

And since in this scenario Windrunners on the sides (and behind the group) are waiting for Seers to make a move, it is possible the shadow would split (though who know how exactly that works).

Quote

They were fighting tirelessly 300000 Koloss. And they began that fight by running to the Koloss lines.

They were primarily defending cave entrances, that alone gives them advantage.
They first ran in to get in quick strike before the Koloss become frenzied, which they did, and then they fight in the entrances (as your own quotes show).

Even in your quotes Elend notes that they killed 'thousands' which while a lot, is not that much for hours of fighting. If they killed 100 000, than a single seer killed less then 400 Koloss in several hours. That means it took them a minute or so to kill a single Koloss.
And the reality is probably far worse because a) Elend is killing far more then most others. b ) They did not kill 100 000.

So even with defensive advantage, when they don't have to move large distances at speed (like you propose), and facing an enemy that cannot heal they still take tens of seconds to kill a single one. If that was army of Squires, they would fare worse, simply because they would have to hurt them a lot more to kill them, due to healing.

Quote

So yes, they will be fine after running for 12 seconds, and will be able to avoid attacts of several Windrunners at once.

Ok, instead of 12 second sprint, let them sprint for a 10 or 15 minutes. They will be tired, they are still just humans.
But Windrunners will be just as fresh as at the start.

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

If we assume pre-existing knowledge, then my question is if Elend while loaded to the gills with Atium can take out Kaladin while a bunch of squires either gang up on him or get in the way. If he can, squires lose their powers and will become fodder for the Seers. If Elend as a Mistborn can't, no Seer or group of Seers will be able to take out Kaladin. Kaladin and Elend are the lynchpins, if either go down, their side loses.

But Kaladin knows that he is lynchpin, so he would fight defensively or stay out of range (he could easily fly ~50 meters in air, and Elend could not touch him).
Elend cannot afford to get in air, as there he is at mercy of Reverse Lashing, and there Atium won't help him.
Additionally, with Sylblade Kaladin has range advantage, so there is very little Seer (or Elend) can do to kill him, if he primarily fights defensively.

Hell, a Seer cannot take down a Squire, simply because they cannot approach Squire. All Squire has to do is put down Full Lashing around himself and use Reverse Lashing to disarm Seers.

Edited May 12, 2023 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

They don't need to run away, as soon as they are out of the Full Lashing parameter, they can reorganized and regroup. There is 50 of them, not 1, and 50 Windrunners. If several Windrunners will attack a single Seer, several Seers will attack a single Windrunner, or immediately run to help him. Plus even when tired it took a long time, hours, for Seers in HoA to finally get killed, some were killed while still burning Atium, most after Atium run out. Many made several trips back to cave entrances to get more Atium. They were fighting tirelessly 300000 Koloss. And they began that fight by running to the Koloss lines. So yes, they will be fine after running for 12 seconds, and will be able to avoid attacts of several Windrunners at once. HoA ch 81:

Edit:

I haven't considered this. While For Windrunners Kal is a glue holding them together, for Seers that's not the case - every one of them have their powers independently from Elend and have their own stack of Atium. Elend can die and the rest will still fight. 

I will say that it is hard to kill Kaladin, because he has a Shardblade, that's the first problem, the second is efficient healing, compared to squires. It really depends if decapitation would immediately kill him, which is unlikely I have to admit. It would take some time to kill Kaladin, It's possible with Atium, but with that amount of Stormlight they have, it will take some time to exhaust his supply.

Using duralumin enhanced Atium will not kill Kaladin, as he can heal. Therefore there is no reason for Elend to use it. And Elend with Atium can dodge almost everything that others throw at him - for an hour.

Can I just take a half of a moment and note the use of the word "fortune" in vins description of the men on atium.  

Not sure if it is cosmere fortune or if it is just a happy coincidence in how Brandon wrote the line.  

[Treamayne]

On 5/10/2023 at 3:15 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't want to pile

You can tell what kind of day it's been since I misread this thread title as "Squid fight"

Spoiler

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

But Kaladin knows that he is lynchpin, so he would fight defensively or stay out of range (he could easily fly ~50 meters in air, and Elend could not touch him).

Would Kaladin play it defensively with his oaths of protecting others?  Wouldn't he view his refusal to join the fray as the reason some of his men die?  And then in that moment of realization wouldnt his bond begin to break down thus his squires further suffering?  

I can't claim to know what Kaladin is ever thinking... but I do remember him being really hard on himself and taking most deaths that happen to anyone he has a relationship with personally.  At the 3rd oath even he still thinks like the world is squarely on his shoulders (or at least the point I am at in the story).  

I feel like Kaladin would be more likely to go after Elend in an attempt to save his own men than to stand back and watch them potentially get killed.  

[therunner he/him]

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would Kaladin play it defensively with his oaths of protecting others?  Wouldn't he view his refusal to join the fray as the reason some of his men die?  And then in that moment of realization wouldnt his bond begin to break down thus his squires further suffering?  

I can't claim to know what Kaladin is ever thinking... but I do remember him being really hard on himself and taking most deaths that happen to anyone he has a relationship with personally.  At the 3rd oath even he still thinks like the world is squarely on his shoulders (or at least the point I am at in the story).  

I feel like Kaladin would be more likely to go after Elend in an attempt to save his own men than to stand back and watch them potentially get killed.  

Well, the issue there is that the best way for Kaladin to protect them is

1) Stay alive, so his men have powers and can heal.
2) Use Reverse lashings to stop Elend attacking from distance.

The nice thing about spreading Full Lashing below themselves is that in that situation neither Seers nor Elend can't attack Squires, so those are safe (or as safe as you can be).
So Elend is not much of a danger, since he cannot attack effectively.

[alder24]

13 hours ago, therunner said:

But Kaladin knows that he is lynchpin, so he would fight defensively or stay out of range (he could easily fly ~50 meters in air, and Elend could not touch him).

Tbf knowing 3rd Oath Kaladin, he would order others to stand by and took Seers all by himself just to make sure none of his men would get killed  

13 hours ago, therunner said:

It does not matter if they see 3 second into future (which is probably Elend level sight, and Seers would see less far), they cannot move more than ~20-30 meters in those 3 seconds, so you can herd them as needed. Windrunners in front drop down and put down Full Lashing, Seers started to steer 2-3 seconds beforehand, to which Windrunner tracking them from sides react and drop down and put down Full Lashing.

Can they do that? Can they drop in 3 seconds, paint a thick line of Full Lashing? In 3 seconds? I doubt it. A single Seer would need around 1 m^2 of space, the whole formation would take around 50 m^2 of space - that's a circle with 4 m radius. A circle with 34 m radius has 314 m in circumference, that's 4.25 m section for every single Windrunner to paint - but it has to be THICK. 3-5 m thick. That's 12.7-21.3 m^2 for every single Windrunner to paint in 3 seconds... Good luck. That's all I will say. 

Plus Seers can put their cloaks on top of the Full Lashing line and just walk over it. Or pick some rocks from the ground and put it on the line and walk over it like through the river. Or untie their shoes and leave them on the line (not recommended).

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

You can tell what kind of day it's been since I misread this thread title as "Squid fight"

I have an opponent for you!

Spoiler

 

[therunner he/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Tbf knowing 3rd Oath Kaladin, he would order others to stand by and took Seers all by himself just to make sure none of his men would get killed

And if he would get his weird effect from duel in WoR and he would actually beat all the Seers

Quote

Can they do that? Can they drop in 3 seconds, paint a thick line of Full Lashing? In 3 seconds? I doubt it. A single Seer would need around 1 m^2 of space, the whole formation would take around 50 m^2 of space - that's a circle with 4 m radius. A circle with 34 m radius has 314 m in circumference, that's 4.25 m section for every single Windrunner to paint - but it has to be THICK. 3-5 m thick. That's 12.7-21.3 m^2 for every single Windrunner to paint in 3 seconds... Good luck. That's all I will say.

Mate, they have Basic Lashing, they can drop however fast they want
They don't need to be too high in air, those on the sides can basically follow on the ground anyway. At most they have to be 3 meters up, and even if they just dismiss lashing they are down on the ground in less then a second, and then start Infusing the ground.
This spreads from them in a circle, and all they have to do is cover their surroundings. As seen from Dalinar (and Kaladin in RoW under suppression), Full Lashing spreads relatively fast, as in multiple meters in seconds.

So yeah, they can do that.

And no, it does not have to be that thick, 3 meters would be enough because Seers cannot jump over it.

The goal in this is to stop them from running away. which this would accomplish. Once you limit some directions, you can cover the ones left open.

Quote

Plus Seers can put their cloaks on top of the Full Lashing line and just walk over it. Or pick some rocks from the ground and put it on the line and walk over it like through the river.

And as they are doing this, Squires are just standing around and letting them do it?
They see them pick up cloaks, they can lash them. They seem them go for stones, they can lash them.

Quote

Or untie their shoes and leave them on the line (not recommended).

good one, how the hell would Seer walk across that? They don't have better balance.

Edit: Sidenote 1: I do think that in 1-1 duel, Seer vs Squire end in draw, simply because neither can approach the other (Seer dodges, Squire denies access via Full Lashing). Kaladin vs Elend with Atium I would most likely give to Elend, or it would again end in draw.

Sidenote 2: Seer vs dude with machine gun, who wins that?

Edited May 13, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration he/him]

15 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Can I just take a half of a moment and note the use of the word "fortune" in vins description of the men on atium.  

Not sure if it is cosmere fortune or if it is just a happy coincidence in how Brandon wrote the line.  

Brandom said that Atium was his way of introducing Fortune to the series.

[cometaryorbit]

On 5/13/2023 at 9:41 AM, therunner said:

Sidenote 2: Seer vs dude with machine gun, who wins that?

Machine gun won't hurt a Seer unless it has aluminum bullets or the air is so full of bullets that there's no clear path. A big explosion would work better - if a second or two of warning isn't enough to get out of the lethal blast zone, they're dead.

The only ways to hurt someone with Atium (before they run out) are future knowledge of your own (Atium, Electrum, maybe F-Chromium, or what Vin did), aluminum projectiles, or 'checkmating' them so that they physically can't escape even with flawlessly perfect reactions a second or two in advance.

Theoretically you could checkmate Seers with Full Lashings and trap them, yeah. I think it'd be incredibly hard to do with equal numbers, though. Maybe possible with Gravitation flight and enough Stormlight to take a lot of hits while applying Lashings, though. Not sure that average Squires would have the skill/precision, though.

Atium is more than just seeing future shadows - it expands the mind, and gives instincts to react properly even if you don't see the shadow. It's hard to beat.