Who would win? Kesier or Kaladin

[Jace The Firesworn he/him]

Who Would win?

[A Simple Pilgrim he/him]

There's a famous WOB about this. 

 

Kaladin would beat Kelsier in an open head to head fight, like a battlefield. Kelsier wins in all other situations. 

 

 

 

[Treamayne]

31 minutes ago, Jace The Firesworn said:

Who Would win?

28 minutes ago, A Simple Pilgrim said:

There's a famous WOB about this. 

Kaladin would beat Kelsier in an open head to head fight, like a battlefield. Kelsier wins in all other situations.

Here is that WoB (and some related ones):

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Kelsier vs. Kaladin, who wins?

Brandon Sanderson

Kelsier is meaner. Kelsier is sneakier. Raw power - I'm not sure, but I'm gonna go with Kelsier. If its on a battlefield, Kelsier doesn't win. If its off the battlefield, Kelsier wins. Kaladin is a soldier. He can fight a war and fight with a team and he can win a battle. Kelsier can sneak into someones house and stab them.

Quote

sockmop

Who would win in a fight, Kaladin with no Shards but with Surgebinding and his favorite spear (aluminum tip) or Kelsier with the first nine metals of Allomancy?

AndTwoYears

Kelsier, I think, if Kaladin doesn't have Syl with him. But it may depend on nearby metal sources.

Alternatively, they come to a shaky alliance where they both fight against the nobility but still get on each other's nerves. [Brandon] care to weigh in?

Brandon Sanderson

If they came to arms, Kelsier would try to kill Kaladin in his sleep, most likely. But it depends on a lot of factors, and I think your alternative is the most likely.

Quote

Questioner

Who is the greatest warrior in the cosmere? I think it's Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, define "warrior" versus "soldier" versus--

Questioner

Who could win at an all-out fight? Even with powers taken away, I think he could still take on a lot of the other warriors.

Brandon Sanderson

A question. Are they on a battlefield? 'Cause Kelsier just murders him in his sleep.

Questioner

Battlefield.

Brandon Sanderson

The actual soldier, battlefield, is probably Kaladin. Problem is, you could put Dalinar in his prime. And they're both pretty good. But, Kaladin is a true soldier.

Not Combat:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Is there any specific relation between Kelsier and Kaladin, and the fact that Kelsier was killed with a spear and Kaladin used a spear. They seem like almost exact opposites.

Brandon Sanderson

Not really an intentional one, though I do intend their personalities to be opposed. I like how they are opposing philosophies as protagonists, but the spear thing is completely coincidental. They are very opposite styles of hero, the big pitch for myself was "Kelsier would the villain if he were in the wrong story." This is a guy where you could easily imagine that this guy could be the antagonist. He gets channeled towards good things and becomes the protagonist. There is no way Kaladin would ever be the antagonist, or if he did it would rip him apart, right. It's not in his nature.

Quote

Dane Brown

Hypothetically, if Kelsier were to meet Kaladin, what would he say?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably "don't be so hard on yourself, kid." That would probably be what Kelsier says. He would do some version of "I've been there, don't be so hard on yourself. You can't fix it all." That's what my gut says.

Kelsier would really like Kaladin. He's the sort of person that Kelsier just... Kelsier loves to see and recognize the people who are just innately good and trying to do good. He's drawn to that because it's not something that is natural to him, if that makes any sense. He can recognize it, though. And it's one of those things that he kind of wants to preserve in the world. And he would really like Kaladin.

Adam Horne

Would Kaladin like Kelsier?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably not. But Kelsier would probably be just fine with that.

Quote

Questioner

Would Dalinar or Kaladin like Kelsier?

Brandon Sanderson

You know, I think they both would have their issues with Kelsier.

Questioner

'Cause he's more of a rogue.

Brandon Sanderson

It would really depend on what situation they were in. But I think Dalinar would not approve of his methods. And I think Kaladin would empathize with him, but at the end would not approve either. To Kaladin he would probably represent the things that Kaladin kind of wishes he would do, but is too moral to do. And that would be a dangerous thing for Kaladin.

 

 

Does that help?

[Jace The Firesworn he/him]

I personally think Kaladin would win most situations. Because He has Shardplate, Kelsier does not. Kel probably couldn't move shardplate because it's not metal (as far as I know) Same thing with Shardblades. Kel Might be meaner and sneakier, but Kaladin is much more skilled in battlefield and in many other types of combat. Also I think Sanderson is Extremely biased. Kel (I think) is Brandon's favorite character. So as much as I love his books and all, I think he is the wrong person to ask. Kelsier would just murder Kaladin is his sleep, but in a fight, (general fight) I think it would be Kaladin. 

 

I hope this doesn't come off as "I AM CLEARLY BETTER THAN YOU" or hostile or anything. That's not the intention

[therunner he/him]

Fight? Kaladin, especially now with Plate. Already on 3rd Oath there would be little Kelsier could to kill Kaladin, and with Plate, Kelsier stands basically no chance.

I mean, emotional Allomancy cannot effect him, Steel/Iron are at most barely able to crack Plate with Duralumin only, A-Pewter is inferior in every aspect to Stormlight+Plate, A-Chromium will start draining Plate first and requires physical touch (also known as Shardblade range). And this is without even considering what Surges allow Kaladin to do, like negate Steel/Iron offense completely via Reverse Lashing, ability to disarm Kelsier (again Reverse Lashing), fly with far greater precision and speed, possibly create gusts of wind (if end of RoW can be generalized).

The only way Kel can kill Kaladin is via ambush, when Kaladin does not have any spheres nearby. And he must kill him fast enough that Kaladin cannot summon Plate.
Basically, Kel wins only if Kaladin cannot use his powers.

Edited May 26, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Jace The Firesworn said:

Kel probably couldn't move shardplate because it's not metal (as far as I know) Same thing with Shardblades.

Shardplates and Shardblades are metals, god metals, they are so highly invested that it is almost impossible to push or pull them with Allomacy. Just like metalminds or spikes are not pushable as well (usually).

Related to the topic, there is nothing else I can add. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Related to the topic, there is nothing else I can add. 

Except, maybe, if you look at the dates of those WoBs - thy were from First and Second Oath Kaladin - not Third and above. 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

The only way Kel can kill Kaladin is via ambush

Who said anything about "Kill?"  The questions was "win in a fight." The WoBs show that Kelsier would like Kaladin (though Kaladin and Dalinar would probably not like Kelsier); and, if Kelsier thought Kaladin needed to be eliminated, he would do so by ambush and avoid a fight entirely. WoBs also agree with the general concensus that in an actual fight Kaladin would win (but probably still would not kill Kelsier). 

[therunner he/him]

6 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Who said anything about "Kill?"  The questions was "win in a fight." The WoBs show that Kelsier would like Kaladin (though Kaladin and Dalinar would probably not like Kelsier); and, if Kelsier thought Kaladin needed to be eliminated, he would do so by ambush and avoid a fight entirely. WoBs also agree with the general concensus that in an actual fight Kaladin would win (but probably still would not kill Kelsier). 

I did
The setting is 'Win', and if it is a straight up contest, then Kaladin wins  basically 10/10, even on 3rd Oath, as I already specified at the start of my post.
Then I just elaborated on the sole situation where Kelsier can 'win', for given value of win.

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

I did
The setting is 'Win', and if it is a straight up contest, then Kaladin wins  basically 10/10, even on 3rd Oath, as I already specified at the start of my post.
Then I just elaborated on the sole situation where Kelsier can 'win', for given value of win.

Tbf it's "who would win" but win in what? Maybe it's a card game, and Kel has already proven that he can always make other play the way he wants  In any card game Kel will win. Maybe it's a contest of who would kill more innocent people - Kel will win, as Kal won't kill innocent people.

On 3rd Oath Kel could just kill Kal's family and watch him collapse and mentally break down. WIn. But on 4th there isn't much Era 1 Kel could do. With Atium he can try something, but that's not gonna work for long. He can't even kill his family and friends anymore as Kaladin is now accepting that there are those he can't protect.

[therunner he/him]

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Tbf it's "who would win" but win in what? Maybe it's a card game, and Kel has already proven that he can always make other play the way he wants  In any card game Kel will win. Maybe it's a contest of who would kill more innocent people - Kel will win, as Kal won't kill innocent people.

Willful misunderstanding of the point of OP is not a good argument

Quote

On 3rd Oath Kel could just kill Kal's family and watch him collapse and mentally break down. WIn.

You mean, watch Kal slaughter him in seconds? We saw what happened to Pursuer in RoW, and he would have no reason not to lash out immediately at Kel.
And he would not be worn down by a year of war and weeks of siege and torturous visions, not your usual conditions.

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But on 4th there isn't much Era 1 Kel could do. With Atium he can try something, but that's not gonna work for long. He can't even kill his family and friends anymore as Kaladin is now accepting that there are those he can't protect.

With Atium he can survive a bit longer, but it won't let him try anything that would achieve anything meaningful.

Edited May 26, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, therunner said:

Willful misunderstanding of the point of OP is not a good argument

Why does everyone want them to fight? Why not "who would win in a drinking contest" or "who would be the best father" or something more friendly?   

13 minutes ago, therunner said:

You mean, watch Kal slaughter him in seconds? We saw what happened to Pursuer in RoW, and he would have no reason not to lash out immediately at Kel.
And he would not be worn down by a year of war and weeks of siege and torturous visions, not your usual conditions.

So why Kel didn't lash out immediately on Moash or Pursuer after Teft's body was dropped in front of him? He? That's what would happen. Just kill his parents and watch him break, there isn't even a need to kill him at that point. Kaladin suffered break down by just seeing Roshone dead.

18 minutes ago, therunner said:

With Atium he can survive a bit longer, but it won't let him try anything that would achieve anything meaningful.

Which is precisely what I've written.

 

And are we talking about Kelsier? If that's the case then Kel can't be killed, he is CR, Kal can't kill him, nor he knows how to make anti light. So technically, present Kel can just win by waiting for Kal to die of old age.

 

There is literally nothing more to add in a normal fight between era 1 Kel and 4th ideal Kal. You've already covered everything. Kal wins. No question asked. So I'm just going wild.

[Argenti he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Why does everyone want them to fight? Why not "who would win in a drinking contest" or "who would be the best father" or something more friendly?   

So why Kel didn't lash out immediately on Moash or Pursuer after Teft's body was dropped in front of him? He? That's what would happen. Just kill his parents and watch him break, there isn't even a need to kill him at that point. Kaladin suffered break down by just seeing Roshone dead.

Which is precisely what I've written.

 

And are we talking about Kelsier? If that's the case then Kel can't be killed, he is CR, Kal can't kill him, nor he knows how to make anti light. So technically, present Kel can just win by waiting for Kal to die of old age.

 

There is literally nothing more to add in a normal fight between era 1 Kel and 4th ideal Kal. You've already covered everything. Kal wins. No question asked. So I'm just going wild.

Who would win in any FPS game? (it doesn't matter which they're all the same)
Who would win in a game of Warhammer?

Who would win in a card game?

Who would win in a basketball match?

[alder24]

Just now, Argenti said:

Who would win in any FPS game? (it doesn't matter which they're all the same)

Who would win in a game of Warhammer?

None of them, because both of them have no idea what a computer is or how it works.

1 minute ago, Argenti said:

Who would win in a card game?

Kelsier

1 minute ago, Argenti said:

Who would win in a basketball match?

There is no basketball on Roshar nor Scadrial, they don't know the rules, but Kal would fly with the ball in his hands, without making any steps, and put it in a basket, scoring. So Kal wins.

[Argenti he/him]

Just now, alder24 said:

None of them, because both of them have no idea what a computer is or how it works.

3 minutes ago, Argenti said:

In a world where they did?

Also I was talking about the Tabletop game of Warhammer, not the videogame

Edited May 26, 2023 by Argenti

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Argenti said:

In a world where they did?

Also I was talking about the Tabletop game of Warhammer, not the videogame

Then Kel in both.

[Argenti he/him]

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There is no basketball on Roshar nor Scadrial, they don't know the rules, but Kal would fly with the ball in his hands, without making any steps, and put it in a basket, scoring. So Kal wins.

besides Kal is taller

[Jace The Firesworn he/him]

Well, what about a race? 100 meter (I hate using the metric system.;) *shivers in horror* ) sprint? For this I'm going to say no powers. Kal might win because of longer legs, and possibly better conditioning, buuut Kel might be better because he's needed to run from inquisitors.

 

I've opened a can of worms...

[therunner he/him]

17 hours ago, alder24 said:

Why does everyone want them to fight? Why not "who would win in a drinking contest" or "who would be the best father" or something more friendly? 

Cause we know relatively little about them in other context.
And Drinking contest: Kaladin (Stormlight for the win)
Best father: Kaladin again (after 4th Oath)

17 hours ago, alder24 said:

So why Kel didn't lash out immediately on Moash or Pursuer after Teft's body was dropped in front of him? He? That's what would happen. Just kill his parents and watch him break, there isn't even a need to kill him at that point. Kaladin suffered break down by just seeing Roshone dead.

Because he still sees Moash as friend, and as I mentioned, he was by that point tortured for weeks.
And again, that was Moash who killed Roshone, and Kaladin lost Stormlight in that moment.

Neither of the two situations you mention are replicable on command.

17 hours ago, alder24 said:

And are we talking about Kelsier? If that's the case then Kel can't be killed, he is CR, Kal can't kill him, nor he knows how to make anti light. So technically, present Kel can just win by waiting for Kal to die of old age.

Kal can at least remove him from PR, and Kel can do literally nothing to Kal.
Also, Shardblade would cause some damage even to CS, though it might not be enough to kill them. We know spren and seons would not like if Shardblade was swung through them, and Fused try to avoid Shardblade as well, and they do have healing which Kelsier does not.

11 hours ago, Jace The Firesworn said:

Well, what about a race? 100 meter (I hate using the metric system.;) *shivers in horror* ) sprint? For this I'm going to say no powers. Kal might win because of longer legs, and possibly better conditioning, buuut Kel might be better because he's needed to run from inquisitors.

I would say Kal.
Longer legs as you say, and he was running bridges for months. That alone is more conditioning than Kelsier ever had.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Jace The Firesworn said:

Well, what about a race? 100 meter (I hate using the metric system.;) *shivers in horror* ) sprint? For this I'm going to say no powers. Kal might win because of longer legs, and possibly better conditioning, buuut Kel might be better because he's needed to run from inquisitors.

 

I've opened a can of worms...

Embrace the metric system! Kal wins in 109.361 yards race (bleh, what is that number?).

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Cause we know relatively little about them in other context.
And Drinking contest: Kaladin (Stormlight for the win)
Best father: Kaladin again (after 4th Oath)

KALADIN AS A BEST FATHER? Excuse me? What? Because he said he accepts he can't save everyone? What logic is that? Kelsier already was a great father figure to Vin, encouraging her to trust, to love, to expose herself and smile! He swallowed his hatred and pride and saved Elend just because she loved him. Kel wins here for sure. Kaladin can't even have a stable, long lasting relationship, while Kel has never stopped loving the women who "betrayed" him and constantly thinks how Mare would love to have a daughter like Vin.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Because he still sees Moash as friend, and as I mentioned, he was by that point tortured for weeks.
And again, that was Moash who killed Roshone, and Kaladin lost Stormlight in that moment.

Neither of the two situations you mention are replicable on command.

It's the opposite, Kaladin's killing spree and rage is the result of Odium's influenced and weeks of torture. This isn't replicable. His eyes were glowing gold and red. 

But Kaladin breaking down and collapsing is replicable, happened multiple times already. He freezed in Amaram's army twice. He freezed in Kholinar's palace before Marsh shows up, he freezes several times in contact with Marsh and after losing his friends. That is replicable, as it is already well established that Marsh and torture aren't needed. Kill his friends, squires, bridge 4 members or better, his family (before 4th Ideal) and he would simply freeze and collapse, unable to do anything.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Kal can at least remove him from PR, and Kel can do literally nothing to Kal.

Yes, but that doesn't kill him. Kel can just wait for Kal to die of old age. Win.  

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Also, Shardblade would cause some damage even to CS, though it might not be enough to kill them. We know spren and seons would not like if Shardblade was swung through them, and Fused try to avoid Shardblade as well, and they do have healing which Kelsier does not.

Some damage? Yes. Madness - possible? Death? I'm not sure, he is a very resilient CR, Fused or Heralds aren't killed by a shardblade blow, he likely wouldn't be killed too.

But yeah, I know, it's about Era 1 living Kelsier, not CS Kelsier.

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

KALADIN AS A BEST FATHER? Excuse me? What? Because he said he accepts he can't save everyone? What logic is that? Kelsier already was a great father figure to Vin, encouraging her to trust, to love, to expose herself and smile! He swallowed his hatred and pride and saved Elend just because she loved him. Kel wins here for sure. Kaladin can't even have a stable, long lasting relationship, while Kel has never stopped loving the women who "betrayed" him and constantly thinks how Mare would love to have a daughter like Vin.

Yep, I stand by it.
Kelsier is basically a sociopath albeit quite high functioning one. If Vin did not have powers he found useful, he would not have bothered with her. He constantly manipulates people around him (even Vin!), and exploits them for his own plans. He would be quite bad father I think.

Kaladin does not care about that, and cares quite freely about others, which is kind of what you want in father figure.
He would need a bit more time to mature, however based on SA5 chapters, he seems to be in quite good place.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's the opposite, Kaladin's killing spree and rage is the result of Odium's influenced and weeks of torture. This isn't replicable. His eyes were glowing gold and red.

If anything it is both. Kaladin would not have broken like he did were it not for weeks of torture, and he would not have lashed out as violently.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

But Kaladin breaking down and collapsing is replicable, happened multiple times already. He freezed in Amaram's army twice. He freezed in Kholinar's palace before Marsh shows up, he freezes several times in contact with Marsh and after losing his friends. That is replicable, as it is already well established that Marsh and torture aren't needed. Kill his friends, squires, bridge 4 members or better, his family (before 4th Ideal) and he would simply freeze and collapse, unable to do anything.

Too bad he has gotten over that particular hangup in RoW
So no, this tactic would not work.

[alder24]

18 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yep, I stand by it.
Kelsier is basically a sociopath albeit quite high functioning one. If Vin did not have powers he found useful, he would not have bothered with her. He constantly manipulates people around him (even Vin!), and exploits them for his own plans. He would be quite bad father I think.

Kaladin does not care about that, and cares quite freely about others, which is kind of what you want in father figure.
He would need a bit more time to mature, however based on SA5 chapters, he seems to be in quite good place.

I highly disagree. If he and Mare had a kid he would love them and care for them even if they wouldn't have any powers. Vin was already an adult, she decided on her own to join the team, and Kel was ready to let her go if she would have said no. Trust is the most important thing in his team, not manipulation, he tells them straight up what is happening and what his plans are (except for the whole religion thing, rightfully so), but he didn’t manipulate Vin nor used her as a tool. They worked together, as Vin chose to work with him and engage in his plan - that's a different thing than manipulation and exploitation. Unfortunately they were living in the world where death could fall on them at any time, as Inquisitors were hunting them. He did the best he could in the environment they were in, and he did well. He changed Vin, taught her how to survive, to trust, to be happy, to love and to believe. He wanted to create a better world for those she loved. 

Kaladin didn't have a chance to prove himself in that way. Not yet. He may be a good brother but that doesn't make a good father. He does need to mature for sure.

[therunner he/him]

31 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I highly disagree.

I kinda disagree? I'll take it step by step

31 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 If he and Mare had a kid he would love them and care for them even if they wouldn't have any powers.

If.
That does a lot there. That version of Kelsier, who never ended up in pits, who never had to see Mare killed before his eyes, that I could see being a good father.
But that is not who Kelsier had become.

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 Vin was already an adult, she decided on her own to join the team, and Kel was ready to let her go if she would have said no.

Vin was sixteen, and abused for basically her entire life.
She is not in good position to recognize who could be abusive or not.
And yes Kel would have let her go, but not just because he would be nice, but because he cannot keep unfriendly Mistborn hostage.

34 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Trust is the most important thing in his team, not manipulation, he tells them straight up what is happening and what his plans are (except for the whole religion thing, rightfully so), but he didn’t manipulate Vin nor used her as a tool.

He straight up lied! About most the plan!
He had no idea if the metal would work or not and lied about that (that lie almost got Vin killed and only the fact she is chosen of Preservation saved her).

He literally used Vin to get spy within Noble circles (with her consent mind you).

He lied to them multiple times and don't get me started on what he did to his soldiers in the caves.

35 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Unfortunately they were living in the world where death could fall on them at any time, as Inquisitors were hunting them. He did the best he could in the environment they were in, and he did well.

Kind of fair.

Quote

He changed Vin, taught her how to survive, to trust, to be happy, to love and to believe.

No, she taught herself that. That is basically what her entire arc in WoA is, learning to trust and to be happy and to believe. She does that alone.

Quote

He wanted to create a better world for those she loved. 

No, he wanted vengeance first, create better world second.
Were it not for Preservation, his plan would get every Skaa within Luthadel killed, Vin included.
Kelsier got lucky.

38 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Kaladin didn't have a chance to prove himself in that way. Not yet. He may be a good brother but that doesn't make a good father. He does need to mature for sure.

Fair.
Though I would say that how Kal is repeatedly shown to draw people together, and to make nice functional 'families' out of them counts for something.

Contrast with Kel, and his influence, e.g. Ghostbloods. If he is available in person, he can keep things in check, but ultimately his methods and his ways are corrosive on people around him.
 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

No, they're not allowed to backstab each other. [too many people talking at once] [Ghostbloods have]? specific rules, because they need them to be very strong specific rules. If you have an organization of people who are drawn to the way Kelsier works you need some really strong rules. [Hosts laugh] When he is just with his crew, his force of personality, and the people he individually picks you're not gonna have that problem. 

...

And it's the same thing with Kelsier, in an immediate organization of Kelsier's you're gonna find a well bonded crew of people hand picked who are going to work together as a team, and you aren't going to have to worry about too much about backstabbing - less than average for the type of organization that they are. But if his structure is outside of his direct manipulation, the type of people who would be attracted to the organization he makes...

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

I love Kelsier, he is probably my favorite character, but the dude is not a good person. He could have been, and still can, but he is too goal oriented, and cares little for collateral damage.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

If.
That does a lot there. That version of Kelsier, who never ended up in pits, who never had to see Mare killed before his eyes, that I could see being a good father.
But that is not who Kelsier had become.

But we're talking about the "if" scenario. Can he be a good father? Not just take Vin from the streets and be a good father figure for a year, but all of the "fathering" that comes with having a kid. I'm not saying he would be a perfect father, he wouldn't be, but he would be a decent father, certainly caring for his kids in that cruel world, teaching them the best he has to offer. His relations with Vin and the influence he had over her in that short year proved this.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

He straight up lied! About most the plan!
He had no idea if the metal would work or not and lied about that (that lie almost got Vin killed and only the fact she is chosen of Preservation saved her).

He literally used Vin to get spy within Noble circles (with her consent mind you).

He lied to them multiple times and don't get me started on what he did to his soldiers in the caves.

There were 2 plans. He kept one in secret. Yes, that's his weak point, he lies. And no, that lie didn't almost kill Vin, as he TOLD her in the message that he wasn't able to figure out how this metal works, and he didn't want her to face TRL. She did it on her own. 

He didn't "used" her, she agreed to do that on her own as a part of the team. In that way you can call every work done together as "using somebody".

Soldiers weren't part of his crew. That was brutal manipulation.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

No, she taught herself that. That is basically what her entire arc in WoA is, learning to trust and to be happy and to believe. She does that alone.

She did that because Kel showed her that first. He showed her that it's better to trust and be hurt than not trust at all. He constantly reminded her to smile. He was an example which showed her that it's possible to be like that. Without that, she would have never been able to learn this lesson. She did that because of Kel. He gave her a picture of flower as a reminder.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Quote

He wanted to create a better world for those she loved. 

No, he wanted vengeance first, create better world second.
Were it not for Preservation, his plan would get every Skaa within Luthadel killed, Vin included.
Kelsier got lucky.

I meant "She wanted to create a better world for those she loved." Vin, not Kel.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Though I would say that how Kal is repeatedly shown to draw people together, and to make nice functional 'families' out of them counts for something.

Yes it does.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Contrast with Kel, and his influence, e.g. Ghostbloods. If he is available in person, he can keep things in check, but ultimately his methods and his ways are corrosive on people around him.

Scadrial Ghostbloods faction do work very well, very organized and trusting each other, they kind of are like a family, like Bridge 4.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I love Kelsier, he is probably my favorite character, but the dude is not a good person. He could have been, and still can, but he is too goal oriented, and cares little for collateral damage.

I fully get that. He isn't that good of a person and is a villain in most people's stories. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't be a good father. 

[Duxredux he/him]

I'll chime in that who is a better father can be a very emotionally charged topic, and perhaps one that can be highly subjective. I semi-apologize in advance for the snark, but proving that one of two men, neither of whom have children, is objectively the better potential father is one reason that people use this social construct known as "dating" to determine the answer for their specific circumstance. And surprise, surprise, different people generally choose different men.

[Walter The Moral]

On 5/27/2023 at 1:41 PM, therunner said:

And Drinking contest: Kaladin (Stormlight for the win)

Well, Pewter can be pretty good against alcohol. I think they would both just drink until their supplies (pewter and stormlight) ran out.