Cognitive Shadows Part 1.5

[Treamayne]

Moving and separating a discussion from an Elantris Thread Here:

On 5/19/2022 at 9:25 PM, cometaryorbit said:

What doesn't strike me as clear yet is whether Cognitive Shadows normally need bodies to use Invested Arts, or whether (Mistborn)

Spoiler

Allomancy didn't work for Kelsier as a Cognitive Shadow because that magic specifically requires metal inside the body.

4 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

They cannot, as we understand them right now. They are either just Investiture stamped with the personality of the person they're imitating or they're the person's soul that's been allowed to remain indefinitely through an injection of Investiture. In either case, they'll have lost the ability to perform any magic until certain conditions are met, namely a true physical aspect, beyond just 

Mistborn:

Spoiler

Having your soul stapled to your body

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

1. The quote above is already shown to be inaccurate and/or an incomplete interpretation.

After all:

Returned have already been shows to be exactly that, a soul stapled to their body with a divine breath. And they can not only use the Investiture of the Divine Breath itself, they can make use of normal Awakening without further trouble.

Your example has only been shown explicitly on one world and in one situation whereas we still don't have enough information to definitively classify on which side of this fence the Heralds will belong.

Original post by @Underwater_Worldhopper

34 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Mistborn

Spoiler

whereas the closest the Kelsier comes to Shardic intervention is being pushed. He becomes a CS just by getting a shot of Investiture

 

Except, that's not really true. Here's the passage from M:SH Part 1 - Ch 1:

Spoiler

“You want to see something . . . spectacular?” Kelsier whispered. “Help me live. I’ll show you . . . spectacular.”

Fuzz wavered, and Kelsier could sense the divinity’s hesitance. It was followed by a sense of purpose, like a lamp being lit, and laughter.

Very well. Be Preserved, Kelsier. Survivor.

Something shoved him forward, and Kelsier merged with the light.

Moments later he blinked awake.

So it was not just reaching the Well. Preservation used a Command, with Intent for Kelsier to be Preserved. The Command pushed him into the Well, which provided the excess Investiture needed to complete his change to Cognitive Shadow.

All of that is kindof beside the point I was trying to make that was: Your statement was too generalized based on what we know of Cognitive Shadows. In fact, the more you annalyze it, the more it seems like each CS we have seen on-screen (Roshar, Scadrial, Nalthis, Threnody) has each been a "special case" with both similarities and differences. Two CS classes can use Investiture, two can't. Returned can Worldhop; and, if the Ire's fears in SH are to be beleived, Threnodite Shades may also be able to do so (in some limited fashion - if they thought there was a chance they would reach the Scadrian Shadesmar).

My point is just that we don't know which, if any, of those examples is the "baseline" and which are deviations - so it is difficult to generalize on things accurately.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

Moving and separating a discussion from an Elantris Thread Here:

Original post by @Underwater_Worldhopper

Except, that's not really true. Here's the passage from M:SH Part 1 - Ch 1:

  Hide contents

“You want to see something . . . spectacular?” Kelsier whispered. “Help me live. I’ll show you . . . spectacular.”

Fuzz wavered, and Kelsier could sense the divinity’s hesitance. It was followed by a sense of purpose, like a lamp being lit, and laughter.

Very well. Be Preserved, Kelsier. Survivor.

Something shoved him forward, and Kelsier merged with the light.

Moments later he blinked awake.

So it was not just reaching the Well. Preservation used a Command, with Intent for Kelsier to be Preserved. The Command pushed him into the Well, which provided the excess Investiture needed to complete his change to Cognitive Shadow.

I hadn't considered it was a Command. Do we know for sure that it is?

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

All of that is kindof beside the point I was trying to make that was: Your statement was too generalized based on what we know of Cognitive Shadows. In fact, the more you annalyze it, the more it seems like each CS we have seen on-screen (Roshar, Scadrial, Nalthis, Threnody) has each been a "special case" with both similarities and differences. Two CS classes can use Investiture, two can't. Returned can Worldhop; and, if the Ire's fears in SH are to be beleived, Threnodite Shades may also be able to do so (in some limited fashion - if they thought there was a chance they would reach the Scadrian Shadesmar).

My point is just that we don;t know which, if any, of those examples is the "baseline" and which are deviations - so it is difficult to generalize on things accurately.

That's fair. I just feel like Kelsier is the closest we have to a baseline, since Returned and Heralds have Shardic interference and the Shades on Threnody are anomalies.

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I hadn't considered it was a Command. Do we know for sure that it is?

I don't know if the "Command" part is specifically confirmed other than it being "related to" him hearing Fuzz tell him to "Survive" in the Pits of Hathsin when he snapped.

JMO, but (applying Occam) if it looks like a Command and sounds like a Command; I'll beleive it is a Command until we have definitive refutation.

Quote

That's fair. I just feel like Kelsier is the closest we have to a baseline, since Returned and Heralds have Shardic interference and the Shades on Threnody are anomalies.

Except it seems Kelsier may also have had Shardic Interference. . .

Edited June 17, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

I don't know if the "Command" part is specifically confirmed other than it being "related to" him hearing Fuzz tell him to "Survive" in the Pits of Hathsin when he snapped.

Which WoB is that?

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

JMO, but (applying Occam) if it looks like a Command and sounds like a Command; I'll beleive it is a Command until we have definitive refutation.

That's fair. Looking back at it now, it does look like a Command, especially the "It was followed by a sense of purpose, like a lamp being lit" bit.

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

Except it seems Kelsier may also have had Shardic Interference. . .

Except it does seem that Kelsier may have indeed had Shardic interference. What effects do you think that Kelsier is experiencing now are a result of Preservation's interference/Command?

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

What effects do you think that Kelsier is experiencing now are a result of Preservation's interference/Command?

I'm unwilling to speculate on this until we know how he functioned as the Sovereign (since he seemed to have access to metallic arts then, but doesn't now).

My best guess as a "baseline" would be Kelsier in SH when he was restricted to the Cognitive Realm only as the closest we have seen to a "normal" Cognitive Shadow. I think any method that returns them to the Physical Realm has moved that case to "special circumstances," and since each method we have seen is different, each set of cases are different.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

I'm unwilling to speculate on this until we know how he functioned as the Sovereign (since he seemed to have access to metallic arts then, but doesn't now).

That's true. Currently, I think he was just the figurehead for what was actually Spook and some Feruchemist (or potentially old Inquisitor Spikes). Kelsier would have residual knowledge of the Metallic Arts from his time as Preservation, so he may have deduced Unsealed Metalminds through that and then tried it with the help of Spook and a Feruchemist/Inquisitor Spikes. Do we know if Kelsier can use Medallions for Feruchemy? He said he was on an Airship in TLM, so he must be able to, except I've seen Sharders say that He can't use any metallic arts at all, since Hemalurgy doesn't seem to work on him either, and Kelsier has been known to lie to the Ghostbloods before.

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

My best guess as a "baseline" would be Kelsier in SH when he was restricted to the Cognitive Realm only as the closest we have seen to a "normal" Cognitive Shadow. I think any method that returns them to the Physical Realm has moved that case to "special circumstances," and since each method we have seen is different, each set of cases are different.

That's a good starting point until we learn more.

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Warbreaker Spoiler section:

Returned are somewhat unique among Cognitive Shadows, as they are shown to be able to Worldhop when no other CS has ever been able to do so, so far. Whether this is because of the way they've been "Stapled", the fact that they were "Stapled" very soon after death, the fact that they were "Stapled" onto their original bodies, or some amalgamation of the three, we don't know. This very thing, the fact that they're being stapled onto their original bodies right after death, makes Returned a corner case for CS having Invested Abilities, since they might have been created in a way that gives reConnects them to their Physical Aspect. They need to consume Investiture weekly to sustain this form, which no other CS that we've seen needs to do, so that does imply that something special is going on. That could be the very reason why they can access an Invested Art. However, the Art in question is Awakening, which is also somewhat unique, since it's based on giving and taking pure Investiture that hasn't been keyed in any way beyond the necessary Identity and Shardic components, and the effect is shaped by an external factor, giving Commands. The entire point of Awakening is that anyone can access it, in line with Endowment's Intent. We, the readers in real life, could access Awakening if we somehow managed to get on Nalthis. Being a CS doesn't impact your ability to hold Investiture nor your ability to give Commands, and that's all that's required for Awakening. So they may be able to access Invested Arts simply because they've been reConnected to their Physical Aspect, but I suspect that any CS could use Awakening, body or not.

Stormlight Archive & Mistborn spoiler section:

As for the Heralds, whatever they're doing to gain physical bodies, it seems to reConnect them enough to use Surgebinding, yet not enough that they can leave Roshar. But they are subject to Shardic intervention, just like the Returned, and so we have to assume something unique is going on. My entire argument is based on the fact that both the Heralds and The Returned have direct Shardic interference, whereas the closest the Kelsier comes to Shardic intervention is being pushed. He becomes a CS just by getting a shot of Investiture, whereas the Heralds and Returned require something special to be done by the Shards, so while the Heralds and Returned have something that's been tampered with, Kelsier is what a natural CS would be, so far as we can tell. So, as Kelsier cannot access Invested Arts like Allomancy, and since the Selish Arts are similarly internal and hereditary in nature of the acquisition of powers, I'm extrapolating that regular CS cannot use Invested Arts (besides Awakening, which is an outlier; Also potentially Surgebinding, should a Spren choose to bond a CS)

I want to clear things with this reply. Firstly we know why Returned can worldhop - Endowment's investiture is attached to the identity of a person, the same is true with Divine Breaths, they're more physical, strongly attached to the person's identity. That's just the nature of Endowment. Divine Breath is basically a supercharged normal Breath.

Spoiler

Badger1289

If Investiture can’t be moved beyond a certain point away from its world/solar system, how in the Cosmere did three Awakeners end up on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture from different systems acts in different ways. Certain people have managed, for example, to get some kinds of Investiture to leave their home world through the use of a kind of magical pipeline. Breaths attach to the identity of the individual, and are fully given away--freely, which removes some of this Connection. It's a nature of Endowment that the gift is given without strings attached, so to speak. But while it's a renewable resource, it's a difficult one.

Roshar is extra "sticky" so to speak with Investiture. It's part of the nature of Honor, Cultivation, and oaths. So getting it off is a problem, though collecting it is not.

Echono

Wouldn't consuming it also be a problem? You need a direct or secondary Bond to take in Stormlight Investiture. It's not like metals or Breaths that anyone could absorb. Although a certain grouchy ardent might have found a way...

Brandon Sanderson

You are right in that Stormlight is more being seen as a power source, since certain systems in the cosmere can work on a variety of different kinds. Not just anyone could make use of it, at least not unless it is refined.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 8, 2020)

However even for Returned it might be hard to worldhop - the trick then is likely to suppress their Divine Breaths, like Vasher is doing this constantly. Can a different CS do the same? Unlikely, because that's the nature of Breaths that no other investiture has.

Spoiler

Questioner

Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave.

Questioner

I thought I saw someone but I guess not.

Brandon Sanderson

It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. "Cognitive Shadow" is a very ambiguous term in the cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- It's the same thing with petrification, right? Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but... you are usually Invested with something, that's tied, and you're basically like pure Investiture then. You're tied to the thing you're Connected to. Most of the things that you're gonna see with that, travelling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it. You have seen people do it.

Questioner

Who?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher... You have seen people do it. But anyone who's got-- yeah.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

Secondly we know why Kelsier can't use Allomancy - his connection to his body is removed, and Allomancy apparently needs that (after all you physically burn metals in your physical stomach). Most invested arts are based on connection which is severed in the moment of death - Radiants lose their spren bond, Aviars are connected to a person, Elantrains are connected to Arelon. Because in the moment of death their body, spirit and mind is separated, they lose all that connections. And this is when someone can become a CS. 

Spoiler

Steeldancer

This is hypothetical, it probably wouldn't actually happen. If a Knight Radiant goes to Nalthis, dies, gets Returned...

Brandon Sanderson

It could happen.

Steeldancer

Would they retain their spren bond?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably not, would be my guess. I've never had that question before, but I'm gonna say no.

FanX 2021 (Sept. 18, 2021)

Kelsier isn't even stampled to his own body - he's using a Mistwraith who consumed his bones. Identity of his body doesn't match his soul's identity. There is no strong connection between those two.

Spoiler

rxience (paraphrased)

Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that could happen.

rxience (paraphrased)

Did that happen in the past?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about?

rxience (paraphrased)

Kelsier of course!

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he?

Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

Returned are different. Endowment's invested art can be performed by anybody, as long as they have Breaths. If an Awakener dies and Returned, he can still access his Breath that were used to Awaken things before his death. Breaths are bound to identity. That's why Endowment's magic system is different. No connection to this magic is removed in the moment of death.

Spoiler

Oudeis16

If Bob the Awakener Awakened fifty straw men to dance around, then died, then Returned as FormerBob the Appropriately Named, would FormerBob be able to reclaim the Breath from the straw men in the normal fashion (once he learned the "Your Breath to Mine" Command)?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He has enough of his original Identity, and the spiritual connection would remain.

sonofstannis

What if he instead were reincarnated as a lifeless? Is there a way he could reclaim it then?

Brandon Sanderson

Lifeless have someone else's investiture replacing their own. (As opposed to Returned, who are augmented.) Depends on how much of them is left, and if they can achieve sapience again, but I'd say this is unlikely.

WeiryWriter

What if the Lifeless is Awakened with their own Breath? (i.e. they gave it away right before they died and the person they gave it to then used it in the Awakening)

Brandon Sanderson

This has happened already in the world, and it does help.

-Nayrb

Did this happen "on screen"?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 30, 2015)

But they can gain new access to invested arts. CS can bond sprens. Even Returned or Kelsier can do that. It's hard, because investiture resists investiture, but possible. The decision is left solely in spren's hands. 
Every CS would be able to get his hands on Breaths and use them, there is nothing that would prevent them from doing that. Most would likely be able to burn Lerasium to gain Allomancy - they have their own body, Kelsier doesn't.

Spoiler

Questioner

Can a Returned gain a Nahel bond?

Brandon Sanderson

It is not outside the realm of possibility. Much more easy than Nightblood [gaining a Nahel bond]. Invested things resist other Investiture and so it depends on amounts of Investiture and it depends on a lot of factors. But that one's a mixing that could happen.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

 

Heralds are different again - they're connected to Honorblades, and this connection isn't severed when they die or move to Braize. This is likely because of the Oathpact rather than Honorblades themself (Szeth in first version of WoR was killed by Kal and Honorblade appeared next to him, which by WoB is still canon). Moreover Nale has never lost his spren bond, when he died - Heralds are just weirdly different, mainly because of Oathpact. I think their physical body is their investiture manifesting in PR, just like spren manifests as a Shardblade or Fabrials, Heralds manifest their body this way - in that way their connection to PR is never severed when they die.

Spoiler

Chaos2651

We know Nale was the only Herald to join his Order. Based on the vision Dalinar had while touching him, it seemingly happened before the Last Desolation. Did Nale spend time on Braize while he had a Nahel bond? What happened to his highspren while he was there?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. So, if you end up in Braize as a Herald with a Nahel bond, your spren most likely would end up there with you. But there are circumstances where the spren could be left in Shadesmar and separated from you. Both are possible.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

But then there are Fused. They are also CS with access to invested art. But they don't require a spren bond - their own investiture gives them ability to use Surgebinding. 

Spoiler

WeiryWriter

Do the Fused still require a bond with a spren for maintaining a form/full sapience, or does the Investiture that makes them Cognitive Shadows fulfill that requirement?

Brandon Sanderson

They do not require a bond with a spren, so yes, the Investiture handles all of that.

Skype Q&A (Oct. 8, 2018)

 

I also want to point out that on Threnody, where no Shard exists, there is a way to become a proper CS, using some special rituals - as Nazh said in SH. How they work is unknown - but also we know no Shard intervention is required, sometimes being heavily invested in the moment of death will make a person into CS. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Because Zahel was especially Invested when he died, he became that other soul. Does that mean that Elend wasn't actually...?

Brandon Sanderson

Zahel is a special case. What happened with him is, on his planet, he was specifically chosen by the Shard to be Returned. That happens, you don't have to be specifically Invested for that. The god gives them that. Now, to become a Cognitive Shadow, which is what certain people in the cosmere are, you need a powerful amount, an enormous amount.

Questioner

So not the bead?

Brandon Sanderson

Not just being a Mistborn, not just... he wasn't even close to being where he needed to be, if you want to end up as a Cognitive Shadow. You need to do some special hoops. We're talking, drawing forth the power of a Shard, or being endowed with the power of a Shard, or a certain number of Breaths would do it. There is a threshold that you could get, you're gonna end up as a Cognitive Shadow.

FanX 2021 (Sept. 17, 2021)

 

Regarding Elantrians, they aren't CS, they are something different. They didn't die.

Spoiler

Khyrindor

You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created.

Recognize that the term Cognitive Shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this:

Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality.

A mind (Cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture.

When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul.

Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety.

linkhyrule5

Huh.

... Kandra are almost literally stapled to their bodies with Hemalurgy - would they count as such, to the in-setting scholars?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they wouldn't. They are beings who have had their souls twisted by Hemalurgy--the soul never left, it's just been messed up. Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count though.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Jan. 20, 2017)

 

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I'm unwilling to speculate on this until we know how he functioned as the Sovereign (since he seemed to have access to metallic arts then, but doesn't now).

I don't think Kel was ever able to use Allomancy after becoming CS. 

8 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Do we know if Kelsier can use Medallions for Feruchemy? He said he was on an Airship in TLM, so he must be able to, except I've seen Sharders say that He can't use any metallic arts at all, since Hemalurgy doesn't seem to work on him either, and Kelsier has been known to lie to the Ghostbloods before.

Hard to say. Medallions are said to work like Honorblades, they have an identity of their own and this might allow Kel to use them. But if they worked on him why don't he use them? Why did he leave the Bands in the temple (granted they aren't like medallions).

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

 

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

However even for Returned it might be hard to worldhop - the trick then is likely to suppress their Divine Breaths, like Vasher is doing this constantly. Can a different CS do the same? Unlikely, because that's the nature of Breaths that no other investiture has.

Clever. What do you think "suppressing" a Divine Breath is, Realmatically?

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Secondly we know why Kelsier can't use Allomancy - his connection to his body is removed, and Allomancy apparently needs that (after all you physically burn metals in your physical stomach). Most invested arts are based on connection which is severed in the moment of death - Radiants lose their spren bond, Aviars are connected to a person, Elantrains are connected to Arelon. Because in the moment of death their body, spirit and mind is separated, they lose all that connections. And this is when someone can become a CS. 

So if Kelsier had died on Nalthis and Returned, he would still be able to perform Allomancy?

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Heralds are different again - they're connected to Honorblades, and this connection isn't severed when they die or move to Braize. This is likely because of the Oathpact rather than Honorblades themself (Szeth in first version of WoR was killed by Kal and Honorblade appeared next to him, which by WoB is still canon). Moreover Nale has never lost his spren bond, when he died - Heralds are just weirdly different, mainly because of Oathpact. I think their physical body is their investiture manifesting in PR, just like spren manifests as a Shardblade or Fabrials, Heralds manifest their body this way - in that way their connection to PR is never severed when they die.

That's a valid theory.

Spoilers for future Stormlight books (Post RoW):

Spoiler

We know now almost for certain because of SA 5's Prologue that Shallan's mother was Chanarach, a Herald. If your theory holds, Her body should have disappeared when she died. Is there any mention of that in the books?

 

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But then there are Fused. They are also CS with access to invested art. But they don't require a spren bond - their own investiture gives them ability to use Surgebinding. 

There's Shardic interference with them too, in Odium. Presumably, since they don't require anything else to gain their Surgebinding, their souls themselves have the ability to perform the Corrupted form of Surgebinding, and when they possess the Singers they just use the Everstorm to strong-arm the C&S Aspects out and replace it with their own.

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I also want to point out that on Threnody, where no Shard exists, there is a way to become a proper CS, using some special rituals - as Nazh said in SH. How they work is unknown - but also we know no Shard intervention is required, sometimes being heavily invested in the moment of death will make a person into CS.

Do you have the quote for that?

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't think Kel was ever able to use Allomancy after becoming CS. 

Hard to say. Medallions are said to work like Honorblades, they have an identity of their own and this might allow Kel to use them. But if they worked on him why don't he use them? Why did he leave the Bands in the temple (granted they aren't like medallions).

I think we can figure out the answer for this one, partly:

Reasons he almost definitely uses Medallions:

• Wax sees a memory from him in a Copper Medallion
• He is at one point known to have probably been on an Airship
• Someone taught the SoScads Unsealed Metalmind Technology, and as of now, Kelsier fits the description perfectly

The thing is, for some reason Kelsier either can't or won't create more potent Medallions, and he probably wishes to reserve the Bands for emergencies, so he's stuck with the less useful Feruchemy Medallions at the moment.

[therunner he/him]

19 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Reasons he almost definitely uses Medallions:

• Wax sees a memory from him in a Copper Medallion
• He is at one point known to have probably been on an Airship
• Someone taught the SoScads Unsealed Metalmind Technology, and as of now, Kelsier fits the description perfectly

The thing is, for some reason Kelsier either can't or won't create more potent Medallions, and he probably wishes to reserve the Bands for emergencies, so he's stuck with the less useful Feruchemy Medallions at the moment.

Good point.

Though I would add that since in TLM he in his thoughts longs for Allomancy again, that suggests that Medallions as Malwish have them cannot grant Allomancy. Otherwise, he would be able to 'fly' around as before by using Medallion. There is however issues of BoM though, since if he helped with their creation, Kelsier should have knowledge of creating Allomantic medallions, and should be able to grant himself Allomancy that way.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

18 minutes ago, therunner said:

Good point.

Though I would add that since in TLM he in his thoughts longs for Allomancy again, that suggests that Medallions as Malwish have them cannot grant Allomancy. Otherwise, he would be able to 'fly' around as before by using Medallion. There is however issues of BoM though, since if he helped with their creation, Kelsier should have knowledge of creating Allomantic medallions, and should be able to grant himself Allomancy that way.

That's exactly what I mean. He (and by extension, the Malwish) seemingly no longer (or never did) have the right resources to create Allomantic or the more spectacular Medallions. The Bands are the obvious exception, but there's no way Kelsier could have created them without the help of someone with actual powers (probably Spook, the last known Mistborn for who Kelsier obviously had big plans for), and now that Spook is dead, Kelsier has probably lost access to the only way he could make Medallions, and the Bands are kept for emergencies, since the power they contain is limited

Kelsier's time as the Sovereign is just so internally inconsistent and doesn't match up with what we see him do that it makes me think he was never the Sovereign to begin with, yet it clearly is him, so Brandon has quite deftly pulled a fast one on the entire fandom until Secret History 2 rolls around.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Clever. What do you think "suppressing" a Divine Breath is, Realmatically?

This:

Spoiler

Mark

It was said throughout the book that you cannot just give some of your breath, but must give all of it. Perhaps I'm simply forgetting part of the book where this changes, but wouldn't Vasher have to give his Returned breath along with his others?

Brandon Sanderson

The "You must give up all of your Breath, not some" line was mostly perpetuated by Denth, who is saying it to Vivenna to stop her from giving away her Breath to all the people she passes. It is a lie. Now, it's a lie that's commonly accepted by a lot of people. But it's still a lie—as we find out midway through the book, you can stick some of your Breath in an object and bring it to life, and then recover that Breath. So it's very easy to give some of your Breath to someone if you know the logical steps to take. Invest most of it into an object, give what you have to someone else, then pull back what you Invested. So it's flat-out proven in the novel that what Denth is telling her is wrong. Now, he could dance around that lie by pretending to be the ignorant mercenary—he's just perpetuating a falsehood that many people believe. But it is a lie. In fact, a lot of the things people believe about BioChromatic Breath isn't true.

One of the things I was trying with this book was to take a few steps back from MISTBORN, where so much was understood. I feel that the approach I took in MISTBORN is right for that book, and yet people have so much superstition regarding all sorts of science. I worry sometimes that there isn't enough superstition in my books, regarding magic as science. What people believed and what people knew and what people understood was so varied and confused throughout most of history, that I worry that I lack realism in that. Vasher brings up at several points in the book that they don't know a whole lot and that people perpetuate a lot of myths and stories and lies.

Vasher has learned to suppress his Returned Breath. When it's suppressed, it's as if it doesn't exist to him. He's Invested it into a place within himself, much like you can Invest your Breaths into a shirt, and when he gives away the rest of his Breaths, he doesn't give that one away. He could split off others of his Breaths if he wanted to—he's learned to do that, so that he could give a few Breaths and not all. It's just a matter of practicing as long as he has. But even people who aren't as practiced as him do it all the time when they Invest an object with not all of their Breath but just enough to bring it to life

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

 

20 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

So if Kelsier had died on Nalthis and Returned, he would still be able to perform Allomancy?

He would be very unlikely to Return, he has no tie to Endowment. Hard to say, investiture resists investiture.

Spoiler

OrangeJedi

Could a non-native be able to be Returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is possible.

JoyBlu

So someone who was born without a Breath and came to Nalthis could possibly be Returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Possibly could be Returned. Yes. That's not very likely.

JoyBlu

So they could get a Divine Breath, even though never...

Brandon Sanderson

They could be given a Divine Breath, yes.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

Spoiler

AyushStormblessed

If a Mistborn or Misting is Returned, do they retain their Allomantic powers? 

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO!

AyushStormblessed

Theoretically then, can Kelsier come back to Physical Realm as a Returned?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. Double RAFO!

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

 

26 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's a valid theory.

Spoilers for future Stormlight books (Post RoW):

  Hide contents

We know now almost for certain because of SA 5's Prologue that Shallan's mother was Chanarach, a Herald. If your theory holds, Her body should have disappeared when she died. Is there any mention of that in the books?

 

Good point. SA 5:

Spoiler

In Shallan's flashback her body was there, with burned out eyes. Unless their body is something like a permanent manifestation, it stays after their death but when they return they create a new body. 

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Can a Returned be made from Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

How would you count the Heralds?

Questioner

I haven't read much, so I don't really know what you're talking about.

Brandon Sanderson

In the Stormlight books, there is a set of people who are constantly reborn, into full sized grown bodies that are being created for them. Would you count that as being Returned?

Or do you count Returned...What's your definition, right? You can create something that is Returned-like. But your definition of what is Returned and what is not, is going to be involved in that.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

28 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Do you have the quote for that?

Not in English. Translation, Ch 3.2:

Quote

“A man can't just decide to become a shadow!" the man exclaimed. He spoke with a faint, strange accent Kelsier couldn't place. "This is an important ritual! There are requirements and traditions. It's... it's…" He waved his hands. "Damn it!"

 

20 minutes ago, therunner said:

Though I would add that since in TLM he in his thoughts longs for Allomancy again, that suggests that Medallions as Malwish have them cannot grant Allomancy. Otherwise, he would be able to 'fly' around as before by using Medallion. There is however issues of BoM though, since if he helped with their creation, Kelsier should have knowledge of creating Allomantic medallions, and should be able to grant himself Allomancy that way.

Yes, that must be the case. But why medallions can't grant Allomancy? It's weird, as you should only need  F-nicrosil portion and give it Allomancy to store. Is there some weird interference between Allomancy and Feruchemy that prevents it from working? If yes then how were the Bands made?

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

 

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Good point. SA 5:

  Hide contents

In Shallan's flashback her body was there, with burned out eyes. Unless their body is something like a permanent manifestation, it stays after their death but when they return they create a new body. 

I think for your theory to work it pretty much has to vanish immediately so that the Connection remains preserved. The burning eyes thing is representative of the soul being severed from the body. Disregarding the burning eyes for a moment, if the body remains in the Physical Realm after death and only gets revived when they return, what happens if the body rots in the meantime? When they return, should they not re-enter their bodies where they last were? The Fused should have figured that out and exploited it at some point if it were the case. If the body gets moved to wherever they re-enter the PR from, once again, what happens if the body has decayed?

The theory kinda falls apart as I understand it if the body remains. Even if you could explain away all that, the eyes burning are a physical sign of the Connection between the soul and the Physical Aspect being severed. The theory isn't necessarily in trouble though, as Shallan isn't the most reliable source given how much she's lying to herself and suppressing her memories, and we've seen before that her Flashbacks aren't necessarily accurate, so something else may have happened.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Not in English. Translation, Ch 3.2:

I got my hands on an original English version, which gives us just a bit more wiggle room on whether there's an actually formalised way to do it or not, but you do seem to be right here:

Quote

“One doesn’t merely decide to become a shadow!” the man exclaimed. He had a faintly strange accent, one Kelsier couldn’t place. “It’s an important rite! With requirements and traditions. This . . . this is . . .” He threw his hands into the air. “This is a bother.”

 

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, that must be the case. But why medallions can't grant Allomancy? It's weird, as you should only need  F-nicrosil portion and give it Allomancy to store. Is there some weird interference between Allomancy and Feruchemy that prevents it from working? If yes then how were the Bands made?

I don't think it's interference, but rather the way F-Nicrosil works. Feruchemy may just be easier to store in F-Nicrosil rather than Allomancy.

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Disregarding the burning eyes for a moment, if the body remains in the Physical Realm after death and only gets revived when they return, what happens if the body rots in the meantime?

Look at the WoB below, Herald body is created for them when they return. A new one.

16 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I think for your theory to work it pretty much has to vanish immediately so that the Connection remains preserved. The burning eyes thing is representative of the soul being severed from the body.

It can still work if their body isn't the primary source of Connection to PR. But this Connection must be severed by trapping Heralds in gems, as that's what killed Jezrien. Every time they return their Connection to PR creates a new body for them, now they have a different Connection between their body and their soul, separate from their Connection to PR. When they die, their Connection to their body is severed, but their Connection to PR is unchanged. Their body however must be separated from their soul. Not like Shardblades and spren, but just like in a normal person.

Yeah, it was just a thought that came to me at that moment. Sounds nice but falls apart when you think about it more. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Look at the WoB below, Herald body is created for them when they return. A new one.

...Where?

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It can still work if their body isn't the primary source of Connection to PR. But this Connection must be severed by trapping Heralds in gems, as that's what killed Jezrien. Every time they return their Connection to PR creates a new body for them, now they have a different Connection between their body and their soul, separate from their Connection to PR. When they die, their Connection to their body is severed, but their Connection to PR is unchanged. Their body however must be separated from their soul. Not like Shardblades and spren, but just like in a normal person.

Are they not Connected to the Physical Realm through their body though? Like, that's the thing in the Physical Realm that they're Connected to. They'd theoretically also be Connected to their Birthplaces, which are in the Physical Realm, but they were born on Ashyn (except for maybe Shalash), and Connection to his Birthplace didn't help Kelsier at all.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yeah, it was just a thought that came to me at that moment. Sounds nice but falls apart when you think about it more. 

I think it could work, with a few workarounds.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

...Where?

There:

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

 

  Hide contents

Questioner

Can a Returned be made from Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

How would you count the Heralds?

Questioner

I haven't read much, so I don't really know what you're talking about.

Brandon Sanderson

In the Stormlight books, there is a set of people who are constantly reborn, into full sized grown bodies that are being created for them. Would you count that as being Returned?

Or do you count Returned...What's your definition, right? You can create something that is Returned-like. But your definition of what is Returned and what is not, is going to be involved in that.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

 

5 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Are they not Connected to the Physical Realm through their body though?

They can't be, otherwise they would cease to be CS when they die. RoW epigraphs ch 92:

Quote

"The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms. Capture one of us with your knives, and you won’t be left with a spren in a jar, foolish ones. You’ll be left with a being that eventually fades away into the Beyond."

 

8 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Like, that's the thing in the Physical Realm that they're Connected to. They'd theoretically also be Connected to their Birthplaces, which are in the Physical Realm, but they were born on Ashyn (except for maybe Shalash), and Connection to his Birthplace didn't help Kelsier at all.

That's a different kind of Connection. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

 

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

They can't be, otherwise they would cease to be CS when they die. RoW epigraphs ch 92:

Hmmm, You may be right in that case. But if new bodies are being created, would they not be using up the Investiture that they're made of, and slowly be used up?

Actually, they haven't needed to revive themselves post-Ahrietiam, and before that Honor was powering them, so everything checks out. The theory works. But if they just create new bodies, what are they Connected to to be able to pull themselves into the PR? Their old bodies?

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's a different kind of Connection. 

But it's still Connection to the PR, no? I suppose it just doesn't work that way, since it's a Connection to the PR and not to a Physical Aspect.

[therunner he/him]

@alder24 Interestingly the quote you give possibly suggests another reason why Kelsier cannot use allomancy, he no longer has it, since he no longer has proper spiritweb (where Allomancy is rooted).

Quote

"The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms. Capture one of us with your knives, and you won’t be left with a spren in a jar, foolish ones. You’ll be left with a being that eventually fades away into the Beyond."

Kalak mentions that Heralds have no valid Connection to both Physical Realm (which is not surprising) and Spiritual Realm, which is news revealed in RoW (as far as I know).

If this holds for all CS, then Kelsier-CS has no Allomancy, because he has no Spiritual component that would provide him with Allomancy.

Edited June 17, 2023 by therunner

[Duxredux he/him]

One possibility I can see is that the Heralds had their "respawn" points designated at one of the 10 kingdoms with Oathgates, considering it looks like Taln was revived outside Alethkar (at least I'm assuming that was when he was resurrected since he was dripping wet in the same way that a Shardblade drips after being summoned). They were meant to defend and protect the kingdoms, training the people, and Oathgates would let them travel to the other kingdoms quickly if necessary regardless of their respective Surges. It would make sense that historically the most dangerous soldiers on Roshar, the Alethi, was the city that Taln always trained first at the beginning of a Desolation.

[alder24]

38 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Hmmm, You may be right in that case. But if new bodies are being created, would they not be using up the Investiture that they're made of, and slowly be used up?

Actually, they haven't needed to revive themselves post-Ahrietiam, and before that Honor was powering them, so everything checks out. The theory works. But if they just create new bodies, what are they Connected to to be able to pull themselves into the PR? Their old bodies?

Oathpact. The investiture for it is provided directly by Honor/Stormfather. 

39 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

But it's still Connection to the PR, no? I suppose it just doesn't work that way, since it's a Connection to the PR and not to a Physical Aspect.

Connection to place is different from direct Connection to PR. That Connection doesn't have to be made through the body, it can be just a direct one to the realm itself. That's what I think.

 

34 minutes ago, therunner said:

@alder24 Interestingly the quote you give possibly suggests another reason why Kelsier cannot use allomancy, he no longer has it, since he no longer has proper spiritweb (where Allomancy is rooted).

Yes, it's possible, but it can be the only reason. If that was the case he would be able to restore that Connection with Lerasium. This is impossible, not in his current state, as Sazed said, which for me means the problem is in his body and Connection to PR. Death severed that Connection, and he wasn't able to restore it since then. Hemalurgy just holds his soul in this body but doesn't give him proper Connection.

 

34 minutes ago, therunner said:

Kalak mentions that Heralds have no valid Connection to both Physical Realm (which is not surprising) and Spiritual Realm, which is news revealed in RoW (as far as I know).

Only when trapped in a gem. Trapping them is what severs their Connection to PR and SR. Their bond to PR and SR is what keeps them alive. What makes them CS. Without that bond, they will fade into normal soul which would be pulled into the Beyond. Normal souls has no valid Connection to PR or SR.

Interestingly, now I think that's the reason Returned needs to be fed with investiture. They lack this Connection to SR - this allows them to easily leave Nalthis, as they aren't bound to their Shard this tightly, but makes their soul fade into normal one. That's why they need to feed on Breaths, because SR isn't providing them investiture directly. 

[therunner he/him]

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Only when trapped in a gem. Trapping them is what severs their Connection to PR and SR. Their bond to PR and SR is what keeps them alive. What makes them CS. Without that bond, they will fade into normal soul which would be pulled into the Beyond. Normal souls has no valid Connection to PR or SR.

Yeah, but i would argue that the Connection to SR they have is induced via Oathpact, not by their nature as CS. Kelsier would not have such Connection.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 6/17/2023 at 6:02 AM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Reasons he almost definitely uses Medallions:

• Wax sees a memory from him in a Copper Medallion

There are other ways this could have happened, including it being Hoid's memory of an illusion he himself created, weather accurately or not. I personally think this makes more sense than him being able to use medallions but not using them.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

There are other ways this could have happened, including it being Hoid's memory of an illusion he himself created, weather accurately or not. I personally think this makes more sense than him being able to use medallions but not using them.

So, it's an illusion Hoid created, to tip Wax off that Kelsier is alive? You're gonna have to give me a bit more detail about why Hoid would do that, given that Kelsier's existence doesn't apply to Wax at all in TLM, and he doesn't even mention it.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 7/9/2023 at 2:10 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

So, it's an illusion Hoid created, to tip Wax off that Kelsier is alive? You're gonna have to give me a bit more detail about why Hoid would do that, given that Kelsier's existence doesn't apply to Wax at all in TLM, and he doesn't even mention it.

This is one theory. I don't know why he would do it, but if it were from Kel, we don't know why he did it. All I'm saying is it's a possibility, and therfore the medalian doesn't prove Kel can use medalions. We also know very little about the Feruchemical-ish possibilities of breaths, which could have transphered the memory from Kel to someone who could store it. All I was pointing out is that we don't know that Kel can/could use medalions, and I personally think that it makes more sense if he never could than can but won't or could but can't.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

3 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

This is one theory. I don't know why he would do it, but if it were from Kel, we don't know why he did it. All I'm saying is it's a possibility, and therfore the medalian doesn't prove Kel can use medalions. We also know very little about the Feruchemical-ish possibilities of breaths, which could have transphered the memory from Kel to someone who could store it. All I was pointing out is that we don't know that Kel can/could use medalions, and I personally think that it makes more sense if he never could than can but won't or could but can't.

I suppose it makes as much sense as any other explanation, but I still think that he can use them. It's just that they're not that useful. Memories, weight, heat, Connection, F-Nicrosil (limited), and (presumably) F-Aluminum, they're not very combat-effective powers, let alone the fact that you can't both tap and draw from the same Medallion. It could just be that he can use them, but they serve no purpose to him beyond the niche things they were made for. But if he can use them, and he's the Sovereign (as far as we know), why doesn't he make Allomantic Medallions and use them? We run into the same problem we already discussed on this thread. Was he or was he not the Sovereign? Did he create the Bands or not? Why doesn't he make more? I lean towards the idea that he can use Medallions, but there's some problem with generating the more useful Feruchemical abilities and all of the Allomantic ones, ones that he could sidestep as the Sovereign but can't do so now (This might be access to a Mistborn or Full Feruchemist)