My Hottest Cosmere Take: If Dalinar wasn't a Bondsmith he would be an Elsecaller.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

First let's comb through the elsecaller entry from the radiant quiz. Lots of stuff that's applicable. 
https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-ten-orders-of-knights-radiant/
Though typically scholars "the Order is open to many different types, so long as they want to improve themselves . . . They seek self-improvement and personal betterment in their lives, but aren’t limited to one specific theme or set of Ideals." That's Dalinar to a T.
Furthermore, "They have their share of scholars, and often a large number of theologians, but also attract those who are interested in leadership." Dalinar (though he would deny being a theologian) fits both of those secondary traits.
"They are good at encouraging others, but some are known to set their sights upon the things they want and then seize them." Another two check marks. "they tend to be among the best tacticians, and are logistical geniuses." Though we haven't seen him deal too much with logistics his time as highprince of war highlights his tactical genius. 
Lastly, he has already sworn the second ideal of the Elsecallers. You might be thinking "what, we don't even know what it is!" I disagree. The Elsecaller oaths are similair to the Skybreakers in pattern and we already know the core philosophy of the order. "I will reach my potential." And he swore it during the battle of Thaylen Field. "If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man."

[Dwmaster204]

Seems about right. 

[Raemle]

No wonder he and Jasnah get along

[Marabout]

Nah, Stoneward

[Dalinar_Kholin]

Perhaps I would.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

22 hours ago, Marabout said:

Nah, Stoneward

And that is the most popular gut reaction I've seen. But, why? What makes him a Stoneward?

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

And that is the most popular gut reaction I've seen. But, why? What makes him a Stoneward?

From the quiz summary (applicable sections bolded)

Spoiler

Stoneward

I Will Be There When Needed

Stoneward oaths focus on team dynamics, on learning to work with others, and on being there for those who need them. They put the interests of others before their own, and will not bend their Ideals for the sake of convenience.

Stonewards are the infantry and ground troops of the Radiants and are renowned as their finest soldiers. (A title that, on occasion, the Windrunners dispute.) They tend to attract those who are most interested in warfare, prowess with weapons, or athletics of any sort. They like a challenge, and in times of peace are seen engaging in (and running) various sporting events of both a military and non-military nature. Many enjoy the outdoors, and you’ll find exploration enthusiasts among them, as well as those who just like the fresh air. They tend to be known for their can-do attitudes and for taking on enormous projects (sometimes more than they can handle). However, most agree that the primary attribute of the Stonewards is their dependability. Though sometimes gregarious, they are never flighty. If a Stoneward is your friend, they will be there for you, and that is a core tenet of their Order—to be there when they are needed. Another key attribute is their ability to take a difficult situation with few resources and make something better of it. Though not known as inventors or creators, they are good at improvising solutions to problems in the moment.

Personally, I think the Blackthorn might learn harder toward Stoneward than WoK Dalinar. I also think Dalinar would not have leaned very far toward Elsecaller until Post-Oathbringer (he didn't attibute self growth until his heel-realization from reliving his returning memories).

Frankly, If Dalinar were not a Bondsmith - I'm not sure he would have become a Radiant at all. Blackthorn Dalinar probably had a small chance before Evi's death. After Evi's death, I'm not sure he was fit for any order until he was Cultivated. By then, already middle-aged, he was much more about Leadership than a typical Stoneward; too little about personal growth to be an Elsecaller - but possibly could have become a Dustbringer:

Spoiler

Dustbringer

I Will Seek Self-Mastery

Dustbringer oaths were themed toward responsibility. They were led to understand that the powers they used needed to be properly channeled, much as their own desires and wills needed proper form and shape. As a Dustbringer moved through the oaths, they were taught greater powers of destruction—and are one of the only orders where their abilities weren’t all available at the beginning, but instead were delivered slowly, as they made the proper oaths. Each oath led to a greater understanding of power, the nature of holding it, and the associated responsibility.

Dustbringers—though they sometimes objected to the common name for their order, preferring instead to be called Releasers—are living contradictions among the Knights Radiant. They believe great power requires a strong will to control it. They often attract tinkerers who like to dig down into the shape and soul of a thing, break it, and see what makes it work. However, their oaths are themed toward control—that they need to be able to control, contain, and channel the terrible power inside them. They tend to object to those who focus only on their destructive sides, as they argue that in order to create, one must understand the pieces of the thing they are trying to make. They don’t see themselves as being about destruction—though their powers are the most destructive of any order of Knights Radiant. They instead see their nature as being about control, precision, and understanding. In the Knights Radiant, they tend to act as the equivalent of artillery in a modern army. If you want a large swath of land destroyed or burned, you call in the Dustbringers. However, they were also often used as sappers, engineers, and strategists.

They attract anyone who likes to take things apart, who likes to know how things work. They also attract those who are a little foolhardy at times—brave soldiers who see themselves as containing and controlling terrible destruction so it won’t get out of hand and hurt innocents.

Blackthorn Dalinar was already his own army's artillery equivalent even before he acquired Shards. His desire for control and understanding was seen as he progresses from Front-Line warrior to leading the border skirmishes. From Soldier to Tactician to Strategist, Blackthorn Dalinar's combat merged with WoK Dalinar's leadership and sense of responsibility could have led him down this path had he not visited the Nightwatcher's Valley, but gotten his alcoholism under control on his own while at the Shattered Plains (as he considers in OB Ch 114):

Spoiler

He trudged through the darkness, and suddenly felt stupid. What was he doing here? Chasing a pagan superstition while the rest of the highprinces gathered to punish Gavilar’s killers? He should be at the Shattered Plains. That was where he’d change himself, where he would go back to the man he’d been before.

 

[The Stormfather He/Him]

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I Will Be There When Needed

I think Hoid makes a good stoneward.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

From the quiz summary (applicable sections bolded)

  Hide contents

Stoneward

I Will Be There When Needed

Stoneward oaths focus on team dynamics, on learning to work with others, and on being there for those who need them. They put the interests of others before their own, and will not bend their Ideals for the sake of convenience.

Stonewards are the infantry and ground troops of the Radiants and are renowned as their finest soldiers. (A title that, on occasion, the Windrunners dispute.) They tend to attract those who are most interested in warfare, prowess with weapons, or athletics of any sort. They like a challenge, and in times of peace are seen engaging in (and running) various sporting events of both a military and non-military nature. Many enjoy the outdoors, and you’ll find exploration enthusiasts among them, as well as those who just like the fresh air. They tend to be known for their can-do attitudes and for taking on enormous projects (sometimes more than they can handle). However, most agree that the primary attribute of the Stonewards is their dependability. Though sometimes gregarious, they are never flighty. If a Stoneward is your friend, they will be there for you, and that is a core tenet of their Order—to be there when they are needed. Another key attribute is their ability to take a difficult situation with few resources and make something better of it. Though not known as inventors or creators, they are good at improvising solutions to problems in the moment.

Personally, I think the Blackthorn might learn harder toward Stoneward than WoK Dalinar. I also think Dalinar would not have leaned very far toward Elsecaller until Post-Oathbringer (he didn't attibute self growth until his heel-realization from reliving his returning memories).

Frankly, If Dalinar were not a Bondsmith - I'm not sure he would have become a Radiant at all. Blackthorn Dalinar probably had a small chance before Evi's death. After Evi's death, I'm not sure he was fit for any order until he was Cultivated. By then, already middle-aged, he was much more about Leadership than a typical Stoneward; too little about personal growth to be an Elsecaller - but possibly could have become a Dustbringer:

  Reveal hidden contents

Dustbringer

I Will Seek Self-Mastery

Dustbringer oaths were themed toward responsibility. They were led to understand that the powers they used needed to be properly channeled, much as their own desires and wills needed proper form and shape. As a Dustbringer moved through the oaths, they were taught greater powers of destruction—and are one of the only orders where their abilities weren’t all available at the beginning, but instead were delivered slowly, as they made the proper oaths. Each oath led to a greater understanding of power, the nature of holding it, and the associated responsibility.

Dustbringers—though they sometimes objected to the common name for their order, preferring instead to be called Releasers—are living contradictions among the Knights Radiant. They believe great power requires a strong will to control it. They often attract tinkerers who like to dig down into the shape and soul of a thing, break it, and see what makes it work. However, their oaths are themed toward control—that they need to be able to control, contain, and channel the terrible power inside them. They tend to object to those who focus only on their destructive sides, as they argue that in order to create, one must understand the pieces of the thing they are trying to make. They don’t see themselves as being about destruction—though their powers are the most destructive of any order of Knights Radiant. They instead see their nature as being about control, precision, and understanding. In the Knights Radiant, they tend to act as the equivalent of artillery in a modern army. If you want a large swath of land destroyed or burned, you call in the Dustbringers. However, they were also often used as sappers, engineers, and strategists.

They attract anyone who likes to take things apart, who likes to know how things work. They also attract those who are a little foolhardy at times—brave soldiers who see themselves as containing and controlling terrible destruction so it won’t get out of hand and hurt innocents.

Blackthorn Dalinar was already his own army's artillery equivalent even before he acquired Shards. His desire for control and understanding was seen as he progresses from Front-Line warrior to leading the border skirmishes. From Soldier to Tactician to Strategist, Blackthorn Dalinar's combat merged with WoK Dalinar's leadership and sense of responsibility could have led him down this path had he not visited the Nightwatcher's Valley, but gotten his alcoholism under control on his own while at the Shattered Plains (as he considers in OB Ch 114):

  Reveal hidden contents

He trudged through the darkness, and suddenly felt stupid. What was he doing here? Chasing a pagan superstition while the rest of the highprinces gathered to punish Gavilar’s killers? He should be at the Shattered Plains. That was where he’d change himself, where he would go back to the man he’d been before.

 

The biggest thing that makes me say he is not a Stoneward is the description of them working in teams. Dalinar is notoriously independent insisting on taking on any challenges himself, often by himself.

Though he isn't anymore, in his past he was incredibly unreliable and flighty. While that has changed, reliability is hardly a core attribute of his.

Edit: I think the biggest thing that highlights this is his refusal to even tell people his plan to deal with Odium at the end of RoW. "Don't worry about it, I'll do it by myself," is not very stoneward.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Elsecaller_17.5

[Treamayne]

5 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

The biggest thing that makes me say he is not a Stoneward is the description of them working in teams. Dalinar is notoriously independent insisting on taking on any challenges himself, often by himself.

Except for that whole team of elites he formed. And the way he added exceptional members like Teleb. And the way he would continue training and working with them, even after he had his Shardplate and wouldn;t need to run miles, unaided. . . 

5 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Though he isn't anymore, in his past he was incredibly unreliable and flighty. While that has changed, reliability is hardly a core attribute of his.

We must have very definitions of flighty.

5 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Edit: I think the biggest thing that highlights this is his refusal to even tell people his plan to deal with Odium at the end of RoW. "Don't worry about it, I'll do it by myself," is not very stoneward.

We concur. That's why I said that, in my opinion, he might have leaned closer to Stoneward in his youth and before Evi was killed. I was mostly just trying to answer your "why do many people consider him a possible Stoneward" question. If you read the rest of my post, you'll see I think his window of possibly matching the Stonewards was long ago and no longer relevant to post-Shattered Plains Dalinar. 

 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 6/20/2023 at 11:25 PM, Treamayne said:

From the quiz summary (applicable sections bolded)

  Hide contents

Stoneward

I Will Be There When Needed

Stoneward oaths focus on team dynamics, on learning to work with others, and on being there for those who need them. They put the interests of others before their own, and will not bend their Ideals for the sake of convenience.

Stonewards are the infantry and ground troops of the Radiants and are renowned as their finest soldiers. (A title that, on occasion, the Windrunners dispute.) They tend to attract those who are most interested in warfare, prowess with weapons, or athletics of any sort. They like a challenge, and in times of peace are seen engaging in (and running) various sporting events of both a military and non-military nature. Many enjoy the outdoors, and you’ll find exploration enthusiasts among them, as well as those who just like the fresh air. They tend to be known for their can-do attitudes and for taking on enormous projects (sometimes more than they can handle). However, most agree that the primary attribute of the Stonewards is their dependability. Though sometimes gregarious, they are never flighty. If a Stoneward is your friend, they will be there for you, and that is a core tenet of their Order—to be there when they are needed. Another key attribute is their ability to take a difficult situation with few resources and make something better of it. Though not known as inventors or creators, they are good at improvising solutions to problems in the moment.

Personally, I think the Blackthorn might learn harder toward Stoneward than WoK Dalinar. I also think Dalinar would not have leaned very far toward Elsecaller until Post-Oathbringer (he didn't attibute self growth until his heel-realization from reliving his returning memories).

Frankly, If Dalinar were not a Bondsmith - I'm not sure he would have become a Radiant at all. Blackthorn Dalinar probably had a small chance before Evi's death. After Evi's death, I'm not sure he was fit for any order until he was Cultivated. By then, already middle-aged, he was much more about Leadership than a typical Stoneward; too little about personal growth to be an Elsecaller - but possibly could have become a Dustbringer:

  Hide contents

Dustbringer

I Will Seek Self-Mastery

Dustbringer oaths were themed toward responsibility. They were led to understand that the powers they used needed to be properly channeled, much as their own desires and wills needed proper form and shape. As a Dustbringer moved through the oaths, they were taught greater powers of destruction—and are one of the only orders where their abilities weren’t all available at the beginning, but instead were delivered slowly, as they made the proper oaths. Each oath led to a greater understanding of power, the nature of holding it, and the associated responsibility.

Dustbringers—though they sometimes objected to the common name for their order, preferring instead to be called Releasers—are living contradictions among the Knights Radiant. They believe great power requires a strong will to control it. They often attract tinkerers who like to dig down into the shape and soul of a thing, break it, and see what makes it work. However, their oaths are themed toward control—that they need to be able to control, contain, and channel the terrible power inside them. They tend to object to those who focus only on their destructive sides, as they argue that in order to create, one must understand the pieces of the thing they are trying to make. They don’t see themselves as being about destruction—though their powers are the most destructive of any order of Knights Radiant. They instead see their nature as being about control, precision, and understanding. In the Knights Radiant, they tend to act as the equivalent of artillery in a modern army. If you want a large swath of land destroyed or burned, you call in the Dustbringers. However, they were also often used as sappers, engineers, and strategists.

They attract anyone who likes to take things apart, who likes to know how things work. They also attract those who are a little foolhardy at times—brave soldiers who see themselves as containing and controlling terrible destruction so it won’t get out of hand and hurt innocents.

Blackthorn Dalinar was already his own army's artillery equivalent even before he acquired Shards. His desire for control and understanding was seen as he progresses from Front-Line warrior to leading the border skirmishes. From Soldier to Tactician to Strategist, Blackthorn Dalinar's combat merged with WoK Dalinar's leadership and sense of responsibility could have led him down this path had he not visited the Nightwatcher's Valley, but gotten his alcoholism under control on his own while at the Shattered Plains (as he considers in OB Ch 114):

  Hide contents

He trudged through the darkness, and suddenly felt stupid. What was he doing here? Chasing a pagan superstition while the rest of the highprinces gathered to punish Gavilar’s killers? He should be at the Shattered Plains. That was where he’d change himself, where he would go back to the man he’d been before.

 

Sooooo question...does Navani fit this well into multiple orders? Is this a Bondsmith thing or is Dalinar singular?

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Sooooo question...does Navani fit this well into multiple orders? Is this a Bondsmith thing or is Dalinar singular?

I don't know that Navani's "spread" would be quite as divergent, since I think she had less radical changes over the course of her last 20 years. However, I could have seen her as a Truthwatcher or Elsecaller if she had not become a Bondsmith. 

Truthwatcher:

Spoiler

Truthwatcher oaths are themed around seeking to find ultimate truth and sharing it. They are very concerned with knowledge and the proper exploitation of it. Note that this should not be confused with the Lightweavers, whose oaths are themed toward personal truths about themselves, said for reasons of self-actualization. Truthwatchers are more concerned with the fundamental truths of the universe, and whether or not those in power are being truthful with the people they lead.

The Truthwatchers are seen as quiet, largely known as the most scholarly Order of Knights Radiant. They tend to attract scientists primarily, but also scholars or thinkers of all types. This extends to some who might not normally be known as scholarly but instead as someone often consumed by their own thoughts. In general, they tend to be reserved, particularly in person, though a small minority of Truthwatchers are greatly concerned with the actions of the powerful and might be likened to investigative reporters. These make their opinions known loudly and forcefully, particularly if they think someone in power is abusing that power or lying about fundamental truths. Note that, as with all Knights Radiant, there is great disagreement within the Order about what is the truth. However, Truthwatchers tend to approach these discussions with enthusiasm, even if they generally prefer to write their opinions rather than speak them. Among the Knights Radiant, the Truthwatchers tend to be those who hold the knowledge and secrets of Surgebinding and are the ones to discover many of the newer advances in things like fabrial technology.

Elsecaller:

Spoiler

Elsecaller oaths are, like those of the Lightweavers or Skybreakers, themed toward the individual. In this case, the theme is progress—becoming better with each oath, seeking to explore their true potential and reach it. Because of this, the Order is open to many different types, so long as they want to improve themselves.

Thoughtful, careful, and cautious, the Elsecallers are generally regarded as the wisest of the Radiants. They seek self-improvement and personal betterment in their lives, but aren’t limited to one specific theme or set of Ideals. This makes them one of the most open and welcoming of orders, though they do tend to attract those who are less flamboyant. They have their share of scholars, and often a large number of theologians, but also attract those who are interested in leadership. They are good at encouraging others, but some are known to set their sights upon the things they want and then seize them. In the Knights Radiant, they tend to be among the best tacticians, and are logistical geniuses, aided in part by their abilities to create food and water for armies, but also their ability to move in and out of Shadesmar.

 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I don't know that Navani's "spread" would be quite as divergent, since I think she had less radical changes over the course of her last 20 years. However, I could have seen her as a Truthwatcher or Elsecaller if she had not become a Bondsmith. 

Well that just brings up another question...what do we know about Navani that isn't shared tangentially in Dalinar's flashbacks or her recalling back to the decade or so before Gavilar's death? Details I mean..where did she grow up. Who are her parents? Siblings? What motivations did she have as a young girl, adolescent, young woman and how are those different/more developed now? If/when we get more detailed info on her, I am certainly going to keep an eye out to see if she fits into more orders. Mostly, because I am infatuated with the idea that the 3 bondsmiths could be members of all 10 orders..since unity is their core. 

[Treamayne]

7 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Mostly, because I am infatuated with the idea that the 3 bondsmiths could be members of all 10 orders..since unity is their core. 

As in each bondsmith has at least one characteristic of each order? 

- or - 

Combined amongst the three Bondsmiths, traits of all ten orders are represented?

8 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

what do we know about Navani that isn't shared tangentially in Dalinar's flashbacks or her recalling back to the decade or so before Gavilar's death?

I think that is most of what we have. Her comments in WoK and WoR, Dalinar's Flashbacks, her POV Prologue and what was discussed in RoW. 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Combined amongst the three Bondsmiths, traits of all ten orders are represented?

3 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

This…I realized after I posted that it wasn’t clear, but figured you’d clarify..so thank you for that:)

Edited June 24, 2023 by JohnnyKaizen