Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 18, 2023 Report Share Posted June 18, 2023 So, while deliberating on whether or not Odium could shunt a Shard's worth of Investiture into the Physical Realm, I was considering whether the Investiture would condense into a God metal or not, and how big a Shard's worth of God metal would be (Asteroid, moon, planet, star?), but then just figured it would collapse in on itself through time dilation due to such a big mass of Investiture concentrated in one place, along with becoming a Perpendicularity. We know that Sel experiences time dilation due to the Dor. But then, why does the Dor not form a giant Perpendicularity? It's literally two Shards' worth of Investiture, all just sitting there in the CR. Having a bunch of Harmonium opens a Perpendicularity, and apparently not even that much given that Allik repeatedly warns Wax about it despite Wax not owning that much of the metal. Any Bondsmith can theoretically open one. There already are two Perpendicularities on Sel. You're telling me that that little pool in the mountains is somehow more Invested than the entirety of the Dor? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 18, 2023 Report Share Posted June 18, 2023 51 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: So, while deliberating on whether or not Odium could shunt a Shard's worth of Investiture into the Physical Realm, I was considering whether the Investiture would condense into a God metal or not, and how big a Shard's worth of God metal would be (Asteroid, moon, planet, star?), but then just figured it would collapse in on itself through time dilation due to such a big mass of Investiture concentrated in one place, along with becoming a Perpendicularity. Very disastrous stuff would happen: Spoiler Questioner So, Sel: Investiture has been pushed into the Cognitive Realm. Threnody: Has it seen something similar? Brandon Sanderson It has not seen... Okay. Yes, something similar. It would count. Something similar, yes. Questioner If that's the case, what would happen if you were to push Investiture into the Physical Realm? Brandon Sanderson It generally manifests either as a solid, liquid, or gas Questioner I thought about that. I was like, "We've seen that," but it seemed like a concentrated form. What if you did for like a whole Shard? Brandon Sanderson That would probably have disastrous effects. Questioner That's why I was thinking for Threnody, but if it hasn't been that, then something else happened. Brandon Sanderson It hasn't been that. Something else happened. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) 52 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: We know that Sel experiences time dilation due to the Dor. We know? From where? I can't find anything on that. If it does it isn't significant. Nothing more than Scadrial - it's the same amount of investiture present in the system. 54 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: But then, why does the Dor not form a giant Perpendicularity? It's literally two Shards' worth of Investiture, all just sitting there in the CR. Having a bunch of Harmonium opens a Perpendicularity, and apparently not even that much given that Allik repeatedly warns Wax about it despite Wax not owning that much of the metal. Any Bondsmith can theoretically open one. There already are two Perpendicularities on Sel. You're telling me that that little pool in the mountains is somehow more Invested than the entirety of the Dor? Because it's spread across the whole Selish CR, and doesn't focus in a single place. It isn't concentrated in one spot. And it's in the form of plasma, which is less dense than gas (under normal pressure). Mists didn’t form perpendicularly on Scadrial. But Dor is under some pressure, to the point of it becoming a liquid - which still isn't as dense as Harmonium. not even close. And it's forming a storm, which means it's moving, changing, flowing, circulating - it isn't motionless. Spoiler Blaze1616 The Dor: Is it gaseous Investiture or is it something else completely? Brandon Sanderson Oh that's a great question. People have not been asking enough about the Dor. Blaze1616 And if it is gaseous—or not gaseous—is it plasma? Brandon Sanderson *Long pause* You got it. *said definitively* It's super sup-- not plasm-- yeah, it's super-dense to the point that's it's liquefied and dense-- does that make sense? So it's plasma, basically. It's its own weird thing, so yeah. What you can write is that it's its own weird thing that's kind of plasma-like. Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015) Spoiler Questioner Can you describe what Shadesmar looks like on either Nalthis or Sel. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. On Sel? Looks like a big old storm that will destroy you. More than a storm, it's like a big pressurized-- it's like plasma, almost. It is really dangerous. Really dangerous. That 'cause the Dor is hanging out there. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) It's like with radioactive materials, plutonium for example has something called a critical mass - if you put too much of it in a single place, it would go critical and even supercritical - bad stuff would happen (bombs do this). The same is with Harmonium - too much in one place, it exceeds its critical mass, forming a perpendicularity (btw, huge 3 barrels full of Harmonium weren't enough to make perpendicularity). But turn that plutonium into liquid and throw it into the ocean - there is no way for it to exceed critical mass, even with unrealistically huge amounts of liquid plutonium. That's Dor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 18, 2023 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2023 1 minute ago, alder24 said: Very disastrous stuff would happen: We know what happened on Sel. The Investiture 'ravaged' the land for a bit, then settled into the Cognitive. Huh. I can't find the source for that. I swear I've seen it somewhere though, I'll look for it tomorrow. 1 minute ago, alder24 said: We know? From where? I can't find anything on that. If it does it isn't significant. Nothing more than Scadrial - it's the same amount of investiture present in the system. Weird. I can't find that source either. I'm sure I've seen it though, I remember the words "but we don't know which way it skews" (referring to whether is speeds or slows time) exactly, but nothing is coming up on the Arcanum. It may have been a thread on here, but I'm sure there was a WoB attached. Another one I'll look for tomorrow, I guess. 1 minute ago, alder24 said: Because it's spread across the whole Selish CR, and doesn't focus in a single place. It isn't concentrated in one spot. And it's in the form of plasma, which is less dense than gas (under normal pressure). Mists didn’t form perpendicularly on Scadrial. But Dor is under some pressure, to the point of it becoming a liquid - which still isn't as dense as Harmonium. not even close. And it's forming a storm, which means it's moving, changing, flowing, circulating - it isn't motionless. It's like with radioactive materials, plutonium for example has something called a critical mass - if you put too much of it in a single place, it would go critical and even supercritical - bad stuff would happen (bombs do this). The same is with Harmonium - too much in one place, it exceeds its critical mass, forming a perpendicularity (btw, huge 3 barrels full of Harmonium weren't enough to make perpendicularity). But turn that plutonium into liquid and throw it into the ocean - there is no way for it to exceed critical mass, even with unrealistically huge amounts of liquid plutonium. That's Dor. I suppose that since it's moving, it would probably form an unreliable, moving Perpendicularity instead, like how Honor's Perpendicularity works. But the pool near Elantris isn't very Invested, it doesn't glow, yet it's enough to apparently allow for inter-Realm transportation. Concentrated Investiture almost always glows, the only circumstances it doesn't is Vin and the Bands, plus Heightenings, which still cause some visual clues, such as leaking mist and causing colors to distort around you. The fact that the pool doesn't just says to me that it isn't very Invested, at least to the level Perpendicularities are implied to be. At the same time, any given amount of the Dor is Invested enough to glow, and there's massive amounts of it all over the whole planet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted June 19, 2023 Report Share Posted June 19, 2023 2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: 3 hours ago, alder24 said: We know? From where? Weird. I can't find that source either. I'm sure I've seen it though, I remember the words "but we don't know which way it skews" (referring to whether is speeds or slows time) exactly, but nothing is coming up on the Arcanum. It may have been a thread on here, but I'm sure there was a WoB attached. Another one I'll look for tomorrow, I guess. Did you mean this WoB: Spoiler Jeremy If vast amounts of Investiture can distort time in a similar manner as a black hole, [...] does that include Shards? Would time dilation be greater on Roshar than on Nalthis? Brandon Sanderson No, because the Shard is contained almost entirely in the Spiritual Realm. In the Spiritual Realm, time and distance have no meaning. So, what this means is: Large piles of Investiture that somehow make it into the Cognitive Realm or the Physical Realm are going to cause time dilation, but the Spiritual Realm—where it belongs—it's not going to do that. That's gonna make some exclamation points raise above the heads of some people. Quote We know what happened on Sel. The Investiture 'ravaged' the land for a bit, then settled into the Cognitive. Actually, we don't "know" this, it is a theory that Khriss mentions in her essay on Sel (and mostly debunked by WoB): Spoiler Arcanum Unbouned essay: Quote Their Investiture—their power—was Splintered, their minds ripped away, their souls sent into the Beyond. I am uncertain whether their power was left to ravage the world untamed for a time, or was immediately contained. This all happened during the days of human prehistory on Sel. Quote Brandon Sanderson And so, what's going on there is just this hope by a certain individual that what has happened there will prevent the power from becoming self-aware. It's basically Odium being like "alright I just murdered you people, I don't wanna have to come back and do it again". So he's trying to figure out a way to make this happen. As it currently stands (again, these things can change when I write future books), it was partially happenstance that he took advantage of rather than something that he was able to set up very intentionally from the beginning, but he was definitely a part. The WoB Implies that there was very little time between Odium's splintering of Aona and Skai and his moving of Devotion and Dominion into the Selish CR. Quote I suppose that since it's moving, it would probably form an unreliable, moving Perpendicularity instead, like how Honor's Perpendicularity works. But the pool near Elantris isn't very Invested, it doesn't glow, yet it's enough to apparently allow for inter-Realm transportation. Concentrated Investiture almost always glows, the only circumstances it doesn't is Vin and the Bands, plus Heightenings, which still cause some visual clues, such as leaking mist and causing colors to distort around you. The fact that the pool doesn't just says to me that it isn't very Invested, at least to the level Perpendicularities are implied to be. At the same time, any given amount of the Dor is Invested enough to glow, and there's massive amounts of it all over the whole planet. Note that other perpendicularities we have seen (like the Well of Ascension) have a connection to all three realms - the Dor's Perpendicularity at the pool near Elantris is only touching two realms, not three. Compare to the "not-quite-normal" perpendicularity on Patji (Sixth of the Dusk) which also does not glow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 19, 2023 Report Share Posted June 19, 2023 10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: We know what happened on Sel. The Investiture 'ravaged' the land for a bit, then settled into the Cognitive. Land? I think WoBs points toward Dor being pushed only to CR and no more. A single fast event. 10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I suppose that since it's moving, it would probably form an unreliable, moving Perpendicularity instead, like how Honor's Perpendicularity works. But the pool near Elantris isn't very Invested, it doesn't glow, yet it's enough to apparently allow for inter-Realm transportation. Concentrated Investiture almost always glows, the only circumstances it doesn't is Vin and the Bands, plus Heightenings, which still cause some visual clues, such as leaking mist and causing colors to distort around you. The fact that the pool doesn't just says to me that it isn't very Invested, at least to the level Perpendicularities are implied to be. At the same time, any given amount of the Dor is Invested enough to glow, and there's massive amounts of it all over the whole planet. I believe Dor is splitted into multiple parts. One such part is near Elantris in CR. It isn't a one single piece of Dor, it's multiple, for every magic system and countries they are tied to. Perpendicularity in Elantris isn't Dor, it's pure Devotion investiture, it likely existed there before their Splintering. That's the difference. Dor itself isn't concentrated enough to form any perpendicularity (there isn't even any mention of some unstable perpendicularities like on Roshar). Even if the Dor was one single piece of investiture, flowing through CR, it would be spread across the whole Selish CR, it would be everywhere in Selish CR at the same time, one planet size storm, not concentrated enough to pierce through all 3 realms, and form perpendicularity. Concentrated investiture doesn't glow - that's not a rule. Atium doesn't glow, Lerasium doesn't glow, Raysium doesn't glow, Harmonium doesn't glow. Trellium doesn't glow. Mists are concentrated investiture, they don't glow. Ruin's perpendicularity was not glowing either, just like Patji's one. The Well is different, it wasn't just a normal perpendicularity, it also held immense power of Preservation - no other perpendicularity is like that. And apparently Investiture in CR works weird and doesn't always result in perpendicularity. If nothing else convinced you this might. Quote The lake that Fedik discovered is below us now — I can see it from the ledge. It looks even more eerie from up here, with its glassy — almost metallic — sheen. I almost wish I had let him take a sample of its waters. Spoiler Windrunner Why does Devotion's Shardpool act so differently from Preservation's? Brandon Sanderson For similar reasons to why the Dor acts so differently from Preservation's essence... 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 25, 2012) Spoiler Youngy Is Raoden unable to use the Shardpool like Vin because Devotion is Splintered? Brandon Sanderson That is part of it, but not the main part. General Signed Books 2015 (Dec. 29, 2015) Spoiler Questioner Is there any way it's possible that somebody could have gotten to the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial without the Well of Ascension? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner And can we know how? Brandon Sanderson Well, how many Shardpools would Scadrial have? Questioner Two, so the Pits of Hathsin would be so? That's what I theorized. Brandon Sanderson Yes. So you've adopted the term "Shardpool". That was never really my term, but I've started using it. What happens with a perpendicularity is large concentrations of Investiture, particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards, will create an access point. You've seen another one in-- Questioner Yeah, yeah I know these. Brandon Sanderson You know which one I'm referencing? Questioner Yes. Brandon Sanderson That you didn't see a Pool from? Questioner Oh wait-- Brandon Sanderson Okay, he knows, so… We'll move on. *general outcry* Okay, fine. Umm, at the end of Words of Radiance. Argent There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but Honor's Perpendicularity moves. Questioner Woah...so...Highstorm? Brandon Sanderson *makes non-committal noises* Questioner 2 Kind of related to that, I don't know if this is a RAFO kind of question, but you call them perpendicularities, are we going to see this sort of thing created? Could there be, like-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah, perpendicularities can be created. You'd need a lot of Investiture, right? You'd need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini perpendicularity, right? And slips herself into the Cognitive Realm. Questioner 2 So it's just a question of skill, not a question of-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah. It's hard to pull off, but some of the powers are built to do it. Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016) Spoiler Questioner In our universe, mass and energy curve space. I was wondering if Investiture does the same or something similar Brandon Sanderson It does something similar. It draws the three Realms together. So it's got like-- Imagine a gravitational pull piercing Realms. Right? Of kind of-- Questioner And that's how a perpendicularity works? Brandon Sanderson That's not the only way a perpendicularity works, but one surefire way to create a perpendicularity is a massive collection of Investiture in the Cognitive or mostly Physical realm. But Cognitive's weird, doesn't always work the right way. But there are ways to do it that way too. Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017) 7 hours ago, Treamayne said: Note that other perpendicularities we have seen (like the Well of Ascension) have a connection to all three realms - the Dor's Perpendicularity at the pool near Elantris is only touching two realms, not three. Compare to the "not-quite-normal" perpendicularity on Patji (Sixth of the Dusk) which also does not glow. It can't be piercing only 2 realms - it's Devotion's perpendicularity it must pierce through all 3 realms. Otherwise it wouldn't be piercing any realms at all - that's how perpendicularity works. Raoden heard Devotion's voice, it must have come from SR. Is there any proof that it only pierces 2 realms? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted June 19, 2023 Report Share Posted June 19, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, alder24 said: It can't be piercing only 2 realms - it's Devotion's perpendicularity it must pierce through all 3 realms. Otherwise it wouldn't be piercing any realms at all - that's how perpendicularity works. Is there any proof that it only pierces 2 realms? That's how normal perpendicularities work. But a normal perpendicularity has the Shardic Investiture in the SR, and is formig the bridge by pulling it through to pierce the CR and PR. The Dor does not have that. Is there any proof that it has to pierce all three realms? For reference - one major (non-story) reason the Elantris Shardpool is abormal is because it was written before BS codified what Shardpools are and how they work (Elantris Annotation 61-1) Spoiler THE POOL - April 22, 2006 So, this is a SLIGHTLY contrived mechanic, and I realize that. I let Raoden off easily by having him simply choose not to be dissolved by the pool. Partially, I did this simply because I couldn’t think of a better way to get him out of it. In addition, however, I think it fits the form of the novel. The pool represents giving in–though it’s giving in to peace instead of pain, it is still an admittance of defeat. I’ve mentioned over and over that the pain has no power against one who doesn’t give in to it. I don’t see why the peace should be any different. If you can resist one, then you can resist the other. Besides, the image of Raoden bursting from the pool in front of Galladon and Karata was too good to pass up. I’m honestly not sure what the pool is or how exactly it fits into the theory of this magic system. It was added as a plotting devise, as mentioned earlier, and therefore was never tied directly to the cosmology or theoretics of the world. When I do a sequel to this book, I think I’ll try and find a way to tie it in. For now, however, it’s kind of a loose thread. The only thing I know for certain is what I mentioned above. Just like the pain of an Elantrian, I think the peace offered by this pool is a supernatural force. It has something to do with the physical form of the Elantrians. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Raoden heard Devotion's voice, it must have come from SR From where do you get that? Raoden "heard" a voice, I can't find anything that attributes the voice to a source other than the Dor itself. In fact, the Annotation stating that one purpose of the pool being "giving in to peace" implies the voice belongs to the pool itself, not some SR remnant of Devotion or Aona. Edit: Note; The relevent section of the Coppermind only references the normal chapter, and is just Sharder speculation with no external references: Spoiler When entering the pool, people hear a voice offering them release and contentment;[1] as perpendicularities pierce the three realms, this message may be an echo of Devotion's prior wishes filtered through from the Spiritual Realm. One must intentionally choose to accept this offer to proceed.[1] 1- Elantris chapter 61 Edited June 19, 2023 by Treamayne Coppermind Note 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 19, 2023 Report Share Posted June 19, 2023 7 hours ago, Treamayne said: That's how normal perpendicularities work. But a normal perpendicularity has the Shardic Investiture in the SR, and is formig the bridge by pulling it through to pierce the CR and PR. The Dor does not have that. I think it's the other way around. Perpendicularity forms because of Shard's investment into the world. It pushes his investiture into PR, which results in forming perpendicularity from PR. Perpendicularity forms because Shard's investiture "drips" into PR, it searches for some relief valve to leak into PR and concentrate in a single place. It's investiture from PR that forms perpendicularity, not SR. SR is spaceless, technically it can't collect massive amounts if investiture in a place in SR to pierce through into PR, because there is no place in SR. It doesn't make sense the way you describe it because of the nature of SR. Spoiler Questioner In our universe, mass and energy curve space. I was wondering if Investiture does the same or something similar Brandon Sanderson It does something similar. It draws the three Realms together. So it's got like-- Imagine a gravitational pull piercing Realms. Right? Of kind of-- Questioner And that's how a perpendicularity works? Brandon Sanderson That's not the only way a perpendicularity works, but one surefire way to create a perpendicularity is a massive collection of Investiture in the Cognitive or mostly Physical realm. But Cognitive's weird, doesn't always work the right way. But there are ways to do it that way too. Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017) 7 hours ago, Treamayne said: Is there any proof that it has to pierce all three realms? It is Devotion's perpendicularity, we know that. That's pure Devotion's investiture, it isn't Dor - it doesn't look like Dor. And WoB said Investiture forming perpendicularity must be "particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards". It must work like others, because perpendicularity pierces all realms, otherwise it wouldn't be perpendicularity. It's like a black hole. Check out "Arcanum Unbounded - The Drominad System" for an explanation of how they work - it clearly said concentration of investiture in PR or CR pierces all Realms. That's the nature of perpendicularities. You can't have one without piercing into SR. Spoiler Oversleep Could you use perpendicularities to see into Spiritual Realm? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018) Spoiler TheFulgid Could you Invest... Could you use a nicrosil metalmind to Invest the sort of Investiture enough that you could open a Perpendicularity up to the Cognitive Realm? Brandon Sanderson So, I'll just say it this way. Enough concentrated Investiture in one point is going to pierce the Realms, no matter what form it takes. TheFulgid ...So, it doesn't have to be a nicrosil metalmind. Brandon Sanderson No. TheFulgid Okay... But it could be? Brandon Sanderson Yes. That is theoretically possible. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) Spoiler Questioner #1 So we know how some people can enter Shadesmar, or the cognitive realm, how do other places, like- we haven't seen anything for the Mistborn series. Do we know how they can enter. Brandon Sanderson Read Secret History. Questioner #1 I did read that, but it didn't really say much besides that one special case. Brandon Sanderson Right, Hoid talks about Perpendicularities on Scadrial, if you go look at that there are certain places he talks about that. Let's just say that large concentrations of Investiture will cause a puncture through the spiritual realm straight to the physical realm, that if you know how to use it, you may transition. That's not the only way but is the primary way. Questioner #1 And of course you can Soulcast [Elsecall?] to get there. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner #2 Now that's a very interesting analogy you just made, you said "punctured" almost as though it were a spike. Brandon Sanderson Yes, yes, that was intentional. OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016) 7 hours ago, Treamayne said: For reference - one major (non-story) reason the Elantris Shardpool is abormal is because it was written before BS codified what Shardpools are and how they work (Elantris Annotation 61-1) That's not an argument. 3 out of 5 Perpendicularities were described very similarly without any glow - Devotion's, Ruin's and Patji's. Only Preservation's and TLM's glowed. But all are clean in color, almost metallic in consistency. Even Devotion's one was described not as water but something denser. 7 hours ago, Treamayne said: From where do you get that? Coppermind. Yes, it doesn't have a source. But given the fact that Elantrias worship Devotion, are attuned to her, everything is white like her, Seons are Splinters of Devotion and Elantrians call her name, especially Ire, I'm believe that's Devotion's voice (not that her real voice, some memory, representation or something like that), and perpendicularity predates her Splintering. The voice also calls in a female-like voice (kind of, in my version), with motherly characteristics close to Devotion's love, to give Raoden peace - sounds a lot like pure Devotion to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted June 19, 2023 Report Share Posted June 19, 2023 8 minutes ago, alder24 said: I think it's the other way around. Perpendicularity forms because of Shard's investment into the world. It pushes his investiture into PR, which results in forming perpendicularity from PR. Perpendicularity forms because Shard's investiture "drips" into PR, it searches for some relief valve to leak into PR and concentrate in a single place. It's investiture from PR that forms perpendicularity, not SR. SR is spaceless, technically it can't collect massive amounts if investiture in a place in SR to pierce through into PR, because there is no place in SR. It doesn't make sense the way you describe it because of the nature of SR. The bolded part is the main part of my point (and, to me, is the main point against your hypothesis). For a normal Shardpool, the bulk of the Shard's investiture is in the SR. The SR has no "place." Therefore, it seems counterintuitive to me that "It pushes his investiture into PR." Causality would have to go the other direction. At points in the PR and/or CR where investiture has built up to "critical mass" it begins pulling the Connection from the SR and creates the Perpendicularity. Once open, things are moving freely back-and-forth. Quote It is Devotion's perpendicularity, we know that. That's pure Devotion's investiture, it isn't Dor - it doesn't look like Dor. And WoB said Investiture forming perpendicularity must be "particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards". It must work like others, because perpendicularity pierces all realms, otherwise it wouldn't be perpendicularity. It's like a black hole. Check out "Arcanum Unbounded - The Drominad System" for an explanation of how they work - it clearly said concentration of investiture in PR or CR pierces all Realms. That's the nature of perpendicularities. You can't have one without piercing into SR. Spoiler Let's just say that large concentrations of Investiture will cause a puncture through the spiritual realm straight to the physical realm However, for the Dor (or considering Devotion and Dominion separately) the bulk of investiture is no longer in the SR at all. To me, it makes sense that the perpendiculatiy could still pierce realms, but with nothing to pull or push to/from the SR, the Shardpool will only connect the PR and CR. I isolated your bolded section of WoB as illustrating part of my point. If large concentrations in the PR/CR will puncture to the SR normally; but in this case there is noting in the SR for it to Connect to, how can we know for sure that the perpendicularity punctures all three realms, and not just two? If invetiture is landlocked on Sel, and therefore location specific, why would a Shardpool not also be limited? Quote That's not an argument. 3 out of 5 Perpendicularities were described very similarly without any glow I didn't say it was an arguement (are we arguing? I thought we were sharing theories and postulates?) I mentioned it was something to consider. Quote (kind of, in my version) ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 19, 2023 Report Share Posted June 19, 2023 1 minute ago, Treamayne said: The bolded part is the main part of my point (and, to me, is the main point against your hypothesis). For a normal Shardpool, the bulk of the Shard's investiture is in the SR. The SR has no "place." Therefore, it seems counterintuitive to me that "It pushes his investiture into PR." Shardpool, or SR, doesn't push investiture into PR to form itself. No. Shard's investment into a system causes some of his investiture to leak into PR from SR. This is often concentrated in a single place, causing perpendicularity to appear. That's how Atium was made, and there was a perpendicularity of Ruin right below the Pits. There was a nice WoB on that leak into PR, can't find it. Spoiler Viper (paraphrased) The gemhearts/stormgems/whatever that are grown inside the beasts in Way of Kings ... is that the same as the way atium is grown inside geodes in the Pits of Hathsin? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It's similar. The Pits are an area where there's like a leak from the Spiritual Realm into the Physical. That's what happens there. A Memory of Light Milford Signing (Feb. 16, 2013) Spoiler BlackYeti Can I ask you about the body of a Shard in the Physical Realm? About the different states of matter. What determines the state of matter that they are in? Because I've been reading the bits very carefully, and I haven't noticed much in terms of temperature difference. Brandon Sanderson The idea for me working on this was that they transcend-- They permeate everything, right? They permeate all life on all the Realms. And that there are manifestations of them that leak out, and it's kind of like they make-- they appear there in the various states but-- When you say that you've got the gas, you've got the liquid, you've got the solid: but you've also got inside of you, and inside of that plant, and like-- they're everywhere. And so what determines it? In my head it's just like when some of that power permeates, some of it distills, just like water. There's some water in the air, there's some that freezes: that's temperature. But it's not always temperature whether it's in the air, or whether it's falling. Imagine a Spiritual version of humidity, that is influenced by what's happening on the Spiritual Realm and the Cognitive, and that's what you'll get. Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014) 8 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Causality would have to go the other direction. At points in the PR and/or CR where investiture has built up to "critical mass" it begins pulling the Connection from the SR and creates the Perpendicularity. That's what I said. Concentration of investiture in PR or CS pierces all realms creating a perpendicularity. There must be investiture in PR/CR to make one, it can't be done purely form SR, like you said, or at least how I understand it. But then again, SR is spaceless - there is always investiture in it, Dor doesn't need to be there to pierce through SR. And WoBs saying "massive amount of investiture pierces through all realms," - not pull from SR, just piercing. 12 minutes ago, Treamayne said: However, for the Dor (or considering Devotion and Dominion separately) the bulk of investiture is no longer in the SR at all. To me, it makes sense that the perpendiculatiy could still pierce realms, but with nothing to pull or push to/from the SR, the Shardpool will only connect the PR and CR. I don't think it works like that. It's like a black hole. It curves all Realms, bringing them closer together. All of them. That's how investiture works. Just like gravity curves all of spacetime, not just 1 dimension. 15 minutes ago, Treamayne said: I isolated your bolded section of WoB as illustrating part of my point. If large concentrations in the PR/CR will puncture to the SR normally; but in this case there is noting in the SR for it to Connect to There is nothing to suggest that perpendicularity "pulls investiture from SR" when open. I've never heard of this explanation. It doesn't fit in my opinion. All forms of physical investiture permeate all 3 realms at once, They are like a black hole, they exist in every realm at once - that's why you don't need Dor in SR, because Perpendicularity’s investiture is already in SR. It brings realms closer together, not investiture in those realms. The more investiture in PR/CR is concentrated, the closer all realms are until they become one and perpendicularity is formed. Also the bolded part doesn't support your theory. It just said it pierces all realms, not pulls from SR to pierce all realms. Spoiler Chaos Is atium Invested? Brandon Sanderson Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it-- Chaos Well I think the question Sharders had was if it's Invested, how can people Push and Pull on it. That was the struggle. Brandon Sanderson Atium breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. Atium plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does atium exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness. The writerly answer is there is lots of weirdness because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow, right? So the writerly answer is we just have to accept that atium and lerasium and some of these other distilled Investiture things are going to play very weirdly with the magic systems. But that's okay. Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together. Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017) 14 minutes ago, Treamayne said: I didn't say it was an arguement (are we arguing? I thought we were sharing theories and postulates?) I mentioned it was something to consider. It's not an argument, we're not arguing, we’re expressing opinions supported by arguments For me that's a pure argument, as it was described like other, later Shardpools. 20 minutes ago, Treamayne said: ? Just ignore it, Polish weirdness The "female" was about water not voice. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argenti he/him Posted June 19, 2023 Report Share Posted June 19, 2023 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Just ignore it, Polish weirdness The "female" was about water not voice. Gendered languages are so fascinating 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 20, 2023 Report Share Posted June 20, 2023 I've found the WoB supporting my idea that Devotion's Perpendicularity was there before Splintering of Aona and Skai: Spoiler Evilsmiley Was Elantris built before the Shards were [Splintered] on Sel or not? Brandon Sanderson Yes, in my outline right now Elantris existed before Odium did his dirty work on Elantris. It's unlikely to change, but I do have to point out this isn't strictly canon yet, and likely won't be until I write the Elantris sequels. General Reddit 2021 (Feb. 22, 2021) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 20, 2023 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2023 (edited) On 6/19/2023 at 2:52 AM, Treamayne said: Did you mean this WoB: I did not, but it makes the same point. I'm beginning to think it was a Thread here on the Shard rather than a WoB, because I haven't been able to find it so far. I'll add it here as soon as I find it. Quote Actually, we don't "know" this, it is a theory that Khriss mentions in her essay on Sel (and mostly debunked by WoB): That's exactly it, thanks for finding it. And you're right, it's not as poignant as I was thinking, I only had a vague recollection of it and assumed it was a WoB, but since it isn't it isnt nearly as bulletproof as I was assuming. I don't know that the WoB debunks it, but it certainly isnt as big a possibility as I had initially thought. Quote Note that other perpendicularities we have seen (like the Well of Ascension) have a connection to all three realms - the Dor's Perpendicularity at the pool near Elantris is only touching two realms, not three. Compare to the "not-quite-normal" perpendicularity on Patji (Sixth of the Dusk) which also does not glow. I like this idea, but like Alder has pointed out, I don't think that's how Perpendicularities work. It may be that it does touch the SR and the absence of Devotion and Dominion's Investiture is what causes it to seemingly not reach the SR, but that's just speculation. On 6/19/2023 at 11:07 AM, alder24 said: Land? I think WoBs points toward Dor being pushed only to CR and no more. A single fast event. Thanks to Treamayne, It's clear now that what I was referencing was actually Khriss's Essay on the Selish system and not a WoB, and even that was just a theory. Im not quite as confident that this is how it occured, but as it stands right now it could be that Odium just shoved the Investiture out of the SR and didn't bother with where it went after that. It may have just landed straight away in the CR, or it may have splashed back and forth, perhaps even into the PR, before eventually ending up in the CR. It could have happened, and the 'disastrous things' could be Investiture burning across the Physical Realm. Quote I believe Dor is splitted into multiple parts. One such part is near Elantris in CR. It isn't a one single piece of Dor, it's multiple, for every magic system and countries they are tied to. Perpendicularity in Elantris isn't Dor, it's pure Devotion investiture, it likely existed there before their Splintering. That's the difference. Dor itself isn't concentrated enough to form any perpendicularity (there isn't even any mention of some unstable perpendicularities like on Roshar). Even if the Dor was one single piece of investiture, flowing through CR, it would be spread across the whole Selish CR, it would be everywhere in Selish CR at the same time, one planet size storm, not concentrated enough to pierce through all 3 realms, and form perpendicularity. It would have separated due to things like CR Geography, yes, but surely within one isolated chunk of Dor the movement would have caused a Perpendicularity to form. Its two whole Shards' worth of Investiture, even a separated portion of it should form a Perpendicularity. The Pool on Elantris isn't very large, so the same amount of liquid Dor, which should be twice as Investiture-Dense as regular Devoted Inevstiture, should also be able to make a Perpendicularity. Yet, nowhere in the Dor does a Perpendicularity form. I know that the Dor is Ionised and so would be less concentrated in any given spot, but if its moving around in a storm, it should by random chance alone at least come close together enough for a Perpendicularity to form occasionally. I'm starting to think the answer may just be Cognitive Realm weirdness, possibly because space is weird in a Realm shaped by thoughts. Quote Concentrated investiture doesn't glow - that's not a rule. Atium doesn't glow, Lerasium doesn't glow, Raysium doesn't glow, Harmonium doesn't glow. Trellium doesn't glow. Mists are concentrated investiture, they don't glow. Ruin's perpendicularity was not glowing either, just like Patji's one. The Well is different, it wasn't just a normal perpendicularity, it also held immense power of Preservation - no other perpendicularity is like that. The Atium we see was an alloy, and so wouldn't be very Investiture-Dense. We never see a big amount of Lerasium in once place either, only ever beads. Same for Harmonium, Raysium and Trellium. We never see a truly large amount of God metal together, save for the Atium cache, which is made of an alloy and so diluted. The Mists are hardly concentrated, they're spread out over the entire Final Empire, and before that, maybe the world. It forms as mist too, so it's just water molecules suspended in the air, which aren't all that concentrated either. They're not truly gaseous, since when it rains the Mists get beat down and the regualrly cause condensation. Ruin's Perpendicularity is described only 3 times: Once in a stained glass window at a noble's keep, once when Vin is thinking about the logbook, and once in an epigraph taken from the logbook itself. 2 out of those 3 times, the Lake is described as dark: Quote A deep, dark lake Quote the great black lake Given that Ruin's Investiture is Black, his Perpendicularity may just be black too, so it wouldn't "glow" the way we expect. The Well also only held a fraction of Preservation's power. It's a lot, yes, but it by no means held an "immense" amount of Preservations power: Quote Finally, he exhaled softly, his work finished. And yet, the power did not evaporate from him, as he had expected it to. Rashek and Vin only touched small pieces of it at the Well of Ascension, he realized. I have something more. Something endless. Quote Rashek soon found a balance in the changes he made to the world—which was fortunate, for his power burned away quite quickly. Though the power he held seemed immense to him, it was truly only a tiny fraction of something much greater. The only odd one out is Patji's Eye, and that one is a weird one from the get-go. Quote And apparently Investiture in CR works weird and doesn't always result in perpendicularity. If nothing else convinced you this might. Yeah, I think that whole idea was to explain this exact thing. As for the pool near Elantris, I'm sure it's been confirmed somewhere that the pool is Devotion's Perpendicularity (The Coppermind says there has to be another one for Dominion somewhere), and I always interpreted the Voice as an echo of Devotion, for much the same reasons as Alder. The Pool is pure Devoted Inevstiture, and most likely existed before the Splintering. The Dor doesn't factor into any of it, as of Elantris it's only just begun to form a rudimentary consciousness, and all that developing consciousness wants is release. It can't be the Voice, and since the Voice's actions don't seem to align with what Dominion hypothetically would be like, some echo of Devotion is the only viable option left, through process of elimination. I won't be weighing into the the debate about how Perpendicularities work, since we just don't have enough on them to say anything definitively. However, just to throw my two cents in, I will say that I was always under the impression that just as an immense concentration of Investiture causes time dilation the same as a large amount of mass would, a large enough amount of Investiture would also generate a metaphorical gravity that pulls the Realms together at a single point, like how enough mass forced into a small space will eventually crush itself under its own gravity and become a singularity, around which a balck hole forms. This was largely because of something Khriss says and what Dalinar does when he creates a Perpendicularity. Quote The concentration of so much Investiture on the Cognitive and Physical Realms creates points of … friction, where a kind of tunneling exists. At these points, Physical matter, Cognitive thought, and Spiritual essence become one—and a being can slide between Realm. Edited June 20, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 20, 2023 Report Share Posted June 20, 2023 5 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: but surely within one isolated chunk of Dor the movement would have caused a Perpendicularity to form No. It's plasma, It's not as dense as solid form and maybe even liquid. It won't form because of its state of matter. Electromagnetic forces would work on that, there is no force pushing it together, compressing it even denser, so it's stuck in the state it is, and can't get denser to form perpendicularity, because of electromagnetic repulsion (or whatever Cosmere forces act on Axi). The movement would actually prevent a perpendicularity from forming, as static Dor would more or less settle on the surface of CR and compress under its own weight. It doesn't matter how many Shards form Dor, what matters is its density. And because there is no indication of random perpendicularities opening in random spots, Dor is not dense enough to form perpendicularity, even locally. 11 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: The Pool on Elantris isn't very large, so the same amount of liquid Dor It isn't but it's liquid investiture, not Dor. We don't know how Dor looks in Selish CR, but because there is distinction between liquid/pure Dor and plasma-like state of natural Dor, for me this means there is some processing needed to manufacture liquid Dor - liquid isn't plasma. Dor isn't in liquid state. 13 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: which should be twice as Investiture-Dense as regular Devoted Inevstiture No. Wrong thinking. Just because it's composed of different materials, doesn't mean that the density is twice as much. It can be unchanged, lower or higher, it all depends on properties of this material. Dor might be less investiture dense than liquid Devotion's investiture. Is 1 g of Harmonium twice as investiture dense as Atium? Or the same? Do 1 g Harmonium is composed of 1 g investiture worth of Atium and 1 g of investiture worth of Lerasium? Or is 1 g of Harmonium composed only of 0.5 grams of Atium/Lerasium's investiture? For me it makes far more sense that Harmonium isn't twice as investiture dense as Atium. The same at most. The same would be with Dor. 20 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: The Atium we see was an alloy, and so wouldn't be very Investiture-Dense. We never see a big amount of Lerasium in once place either, only ever beads. Lerasium isn't an alloy, and it doesn't glow. Lerasium as a solid state is the most investiture dense state of investiture. Did the Atium cache glow? No. Tens of thousands of Atium beads stored in a big hole didn't create any perpendicularity. Even if alloy would reduce its investiture density, it was still considerably dense. 28 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: The Mists are hardly concentrated, they're spread out over the entire Final Empire, and before that, maybe the world. It forms as mist too, so it's just water molecules suspended in the air, which aren't all that concentrated either. They're not truly gaseous, since when it rains the Mists get beat down and the regualrly cause condensation. Vin didn't glow after taking in all Mists, she leaked them, but didn't glow, nor did Mists glow when they were concentrating below Vin as she was taking them in. Glow isn't always present with investiture. White Sand doesn't glow too. Even Susebron or Nightblood don't glow - they hold huge amounts of investiture but the most they do is to make colors brighter and split white light into its spectrum. Just because Stormlight and Dor glow doesn't mean every investiture has to glow. Not to mention that different state of the same investiture might behave differently - Dead Shardblade has a weak glow, while living one has very intense glow. 25 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Ruin's Perpendicularity is described only 3 times: Once in a stained glass window at a noble's keep, once when Vin is thinking about the logbook, and once in an epigraph taken from the logbook itself. 2 out of those 3 times, the Lake is described as dark: Given that Ruin's Investiture is Black, his Perpendicularity may just be black too, and so wouldn't "glow" the way we expect. The only odd one out is Patji's Eye, and that one is a weird one from the get-go. Only the logbook epigraph is valid, not mythological descriptions of unknown sources. In the logbook it's glassy and metallic, not black or dark. And still doesn't glow. If you stopped trying to reject Ruin's perpendicularity as evidence, Patji wouldn't be an odd one (it still isn't because Devotion's pool doesn't glow as well, and it's bluish iirc). 32 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: However, just to throw my two cents in, I will say that I was always under the impression that just as an immense concentration of Investiture causes time dilation the same as a large amount of mass would, a large enough amount of Investiture would also generate a metaphorical gravity that pulls the Realms together at a single point, like how enough mass forced into a small space will eventually crush itself under its own gravity and become a singularity, around which a balck hole forms. Yes, that's true. Perpendicularity doesn't have enough investiture for that time dilation to be noticeable Spoiler Questioner Does the dead body of a Shard pull at time and space, thus causing time to pass slower in that place of the cosmere, almost like a black hole? Brandon Sanderson It could go either way in the Cosmere, depending. But the answer is yes. A large amount, like a deific amount of Investiture will... any amount of Investiture will cause a bit of time dilation, but the amount you're getting from even a Shardpool is not enough to be noticeable. I mean, it is, you can notice it even on our planet if you take a jet that goes fast enough, so it is noticeable but not relevantly noticeable. We're talking about a slippage of a day or so in a year even off of a Shardpool (don't canonize me on that one, I don't have the actual numbers). But that's what we're talking about. There are are chunks of Investiture of deific nature that can cause amounts of time dilation that would be virtually impossible in our universe, without you becoming one with a black hole. There's a story I want to tell, and I don't know if I'll ever get around to telling it, about an entire society that rises and falls in several seconds of time dilation to everyone else. I want to be able to tell stories like that, and you couldn't do that in our universe, but that's part of the reason we have the Cosmere! YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted June 20, 2023 Report Share Posted June 20, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Given that Ruin's Investiture is Black, his Perpendicularity may just be black too, and so wouldn't "glow" the way we expect. I thougth all Shardpools reflected the Color associate with the Shard: Ruin's in the logbook was "great black lake" with "its glassy—almost metallic—sheen" (TFE Ch 29, 33) Preservation's was "A glowing white pool." (WoA Ch 58) Aona's has "Its water was a crystalline blue" (Elantris Ch 25/HPS) Patji's eye isn't much described because it is dark tand they are hiding; but Autonomy's pool on Scadrial seems to be composed of purified Investiture (LM Ch 59 - White, with a mother-of-pearl sheen. Yes. It was like the pure Investiture from Moonlight’s jars.) Cultivation's is Green (WoR Ch 46) "Swimming in the emerald pools is death to outsiders" “Place of the gods?” “Yes,” Rock said. “Is where they live. The waters of life, they let you see place. In it, you commune with gods, if you are lucky.” I think those are all of the ones that have been described on-screen. 1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I like this idea, but like Alder has pointed out, I don't think that's how Perpendicularities work. It may be that it does touch the SR and the absence of Devotion and Dominion's Investiture is what causes it to seemingly not reach the SR, but that's just speculation. Right. I'm not entirely convinced myself that it might only link the PR and CR. My primary point was that we cannot assume it links all three realms "just because all perpendicularites link all three realms." I'm saying it is possible that because the Dor is in the CR (not the SR) it is also possible that the Arelon Shardpool only links those two realms (even if pre-Splintering it once acted as a normal Perpendicularity). It may be normal. It may glow, and we don't see that because it was Dawn and the characters couldn't see it, Glowing or not may be entirely dependant on the Shard involved. Mostly I just want to point out assumptions versus known facts supported by direct evidence. Edit: 14 minutes ago, alder24 said: Lerasium isn't an alloy, and it doesn't glow. Thanks @alder24 - just had a thought. What if whether a Shardpool glows is, at least partially, based on whether some of its investiture is Kinetic. After all, Radiant blades only glow while "being used" - The Well of Ascension definitely glowed, but was also actively being used to hold back Ruin. Ruin's shardpool in the logbook isn't described as glowing - but also isn't doing anything but sitting there (and is partially separated from Ruin). Anyway, I think the "state" of the Shardpool's investiture may be a factor on appearance. 14 minutes ago, alder24 said: White Sand doesn't glow too Actually, White Sand does glow - while it has an active Luhel Bond. Spoiler WS Prologue: Quote The sand, cupped protectively in his open palm, began to glow faintly for a moment, then turned a dull black, like the charred remnants of a fire. The boy—Praxton thought he recognized him as Traiben, son of a lower sand master—had been able to make the sand glow bright enough to be seen even from a short distance, which meant he had at least moderate power. WS Ch 1: Quote Eventually, Praxton raised his hands, summoning a dozen strings of sand from the floor below. They twisted around him like living creatures, their bright translucent glow shifting from color to color in the way of mastered sand. Edited June 20, 2023 by Treamayne Update 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 20, 2023 Report Share Posted June 20, 2023 15 minutes ago, Treamayne said: I thougth all Shardpools reflected the Color associate with the Shard: Ruin's in the logbook was "great black lake" with "its glassy—almost metallic—sheen" (TFE Ch 29, 33) Preservation's was "A glowing white pool." (WoA Ch 58) Aona's has "Its water was a crystalline blue" (Elantris Ch 25/HPS) Patji's eye isn't much described because it is dark tand they are hiding; but Autonomy's pool on Scadrial seems to be composed of purified Investiture (LM Ch 59 - White, with a mother-of-pearl sheen. Yes. It was like the pure Investiture from Moonlight’s jars.) Cultivation's is Green (WoR Ch 46) "Swimming in the emerald pools is death to outsiders" “Place of the gods?” “Yes,” Rock said. “Is where they live. The waters of life, they let you see place. In it, you commune with gods, if you are lucky.” I think those are all of the ones that have been described on-screen. Listing it like that makes sense why they would have colors associated with their Shard. Yes, now I can see it being true. I didn't know Cultivation's perpendicularity was described in such detail. Then it would make sense for Ruin's perpendicularity to be black as well (I was worried that because it wasn't written in Epigraphs, the "great black lake" might be a change made by Ruin). 9 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Thanks @alder24 - just had a thought. What if whether a Shardpool glows is, at least partially, based on whether some of its investiture is Kinetic. After all, Radiant blades only glow while "being used" - The Well of Ascension definitely glowed, but was also actively being used to hold back Ruin. Ruin's shardpool in the logbook isn't described as glowing - but also isn't doing anything but sitting there (and is partially separated from Ruin). Anyway, I think the "state" of the Shardpool's investiture may be a factor on appearance. I think there might be something to it, but rather than kinetic investiture, what about sentience? Shardblades are detectable by A-bronze only when summoning is happening, so summoned Shardblade isn't kinetic investiture. But it's sentient. Dead Shardblade have something missing in their mind, their sentience is impaired, that's why they glow less. Preservation's Shardpool is basically made out of Preservation's mind, and Dor is manifesting a mind of its own so TLM's perpendicularity would glow. Spoiler Rasarr Could a Seeker detect a Shardbearer? For example, could Vin detect Adolin's Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson That detects Kinetic Investiture, Investiture that's being used actively, so in the summoning process, you'd probably get a blip on that, but not just looking at someone and seeing it. Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 20, 2023 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, alder24 said: No. It's plasma, It's not as dense as solid form and maybe even liquid. It won't form because of its state of matter. Electromagnetic forces would work on that, there is no force pushing it together, compressing it even denser, so it's stuck in the state it is, and can't get denser to form perpendicularity, because of electromagnetic repulsion (or whatever Cosmere forces act on Axi). The movement would actually prevent a perpendicularity from forming, as static Dor would more or less settle on the surface of CR and compress under its own weight. That's reasonable, that might actually answer the whole question, but would Investiture Axi even have charges? Quote It doesn't matter how many Shards form Dor, what matters is its density. And because there is no indication of random perpendicularities opening in random spots, Dor is not dense enough to form perpendicularity, even locally. Again, it could be, but it's two whole Shards' worth of Investiture. One Shard is already said to have an infinite amount of Investiture, having two infinities is just an absurd amount of power. Given that it will have settled in the depressions of Sel's landmasses, I'm not convinced that that much Investiture could fit in such a small space and not be incredibly dense, or denser than any other equivalent mass of Investiture in a similar state at the very least. Quote It isn't but it's liquid investiture, not Dor. We don't know how Dor looks in Selish CR, but because there is distinction between liquid/pure Dor and plasma-like state of natural Dor, for me this means there is some processing needed to manufacture liquid Dor - liquid isn't plasma. Dor isn't in liquid state. I think you misunderstood me here. If you had Dor in liquid form, like the Ghostbloods, that should make a Perpendicularity, if in the same amount as the stuff in Devotion's Perpendicularity. Its natural form on Sel is indeed Ionised and not liquid. That's why I specified Liquid Dor :) Quote No. Wrong thinking. Just because it's composed of different materials, doesn't mean that the density is twice as much. It can be unchanged, lower or higher, it all depends on properties of this material. Dor might be less investiture dense than liquid Devotion's investiture. I think it would be, for the reasons above. Quote Is 1 g of Harmonium twice as investiture dense as Atium? Or the same? Do 1 g Harmonium is composed of 1 g investiture worth of Atium and 1 g of investiture worth of Lerasium? Or is 1 g of Harmonium composed only of 0.5 grams of Atium/Lerasium's investiture? For me it makes far more sense that Harmonium isn't twice as investiture dense as Atium. The same at most. The same would be with Dor. That's a different scenario. Harmonium, Lerasium, and Atium could theoretically have any Density of Investiture because there is no requirement on how much Investiture they can or cannot have, whereas the Dor has to include all of the Investiture of two whole Shards. But for the sake of argument, it doesn't seem too outlandish to me that Harmonium would be twice as Investiture Dense as Atium. A lot of Harmonium together in one place forms a Perpendicularity, which needs a lot of Investiture. It requires so surprisingly little of the Harmonium that people are warned not to store even small amounts of Harmonium together. The Trustwarren, in contrast, held nearly all of the Atium produced by the Pits over a thousand years, and it doesn't form a Perpendicularity. Granted, the Atium produced was an alloy and the Trustwarren was not one massive object, so it probably didn't count as very Investiture Dense, but the fact that Harmonium put close together does hints that it's very Invested. How or why that is, I haven't the foggiest, but it does seem to be the case. Quote Lerasium isn't an alloy, and it doesn't glow. Lerasium as a solid state is the most investiture dense state of investiture. Did the Atium cache glow? No. Tens of thousands of Atium beads stored in a big hole didn't create any perpendicularity. Even if alloy would reduce its investiture density, it was still considerably dense. It would be the most Investiture Dense form of it, but how much Investiture does it have? The beads are small, so it's not unreasonable that they wouldn't have enough to produce a glow. Quote Vin didn't glow after taking in all Mists, she leaked them, but didn't glow, nor did Mists glow when they were concentrating below Vin as she was taking them in. Glow isn't always present with investiture. White Sand doesn't glow too. But there are still visual clues. Vin leaks the Mists (so do people using the Bands) because she's oversaturated with Investiture. I honestly don't know anything about White Sand beyond what's been observed of it in other Cosmere books because I can't get my hands on the White Sand books, so I can't say much about that. But from what I do understand of it, the sand is white because of the lichen that grows on it, and that lichen may be glowing to produce the white effect. I can't say that with 100% certainty though. Quote Even Susebron or Nightblood don't glow - they hold huge amounts of investiture but the most they do is to make colors brighter and split white light into its spectrum. Just because Stormlight and Dor glow doesn't mean every investiture has to glow. Not to mention that different state of the same investiture might behave differently - Dead Shardblade has a weak glow, while living one has very intense glow. Nightblood has the color-enhancing aura I believe, but when he's truly supposed to shine (literally) is when he's unsheathed, but we end up at the same problem in that he's black. He also leaks Investiture like Vin, but that's black too. How fitting that he's so Invested that he shows all three signs of it. Quote Only the logbook epigraph is valid, not mythological descriptions of unknown sources. In the logbook it's glassy and metallic, not black or dark. And still doesn't glow. If you stopped trying to reject Ruin's perpendicularity as evidence, Patji wouldn't be an odd one (it still isn't because Devotion's pool doesn't glow as well, and it's bluish iirc). The one where Vin is thinking about it is her thinking about what she's read from the logbook, so it does indeed refer to the lake as black, just off-page. The description of glassy and metallic isn't mutually exclusive with the color black. 1 hour ago, Treamayne said: I thougth all Shardpools reflected the Color associate with the Shard: Ruin's in the logbook was "great black lake" with "its glassy—almost metallic—sheen" (TFE Ch 29, 33) Preservation's was "A glowing white pool." (WoA Ch 58) Aona's has "Its water was a crystalline blue" (Elantris Ch 25/HPS) Patji's eye isn't much described because it is dark tand they are hiding; but Autonomy's pool on Scadrial seems to be composed of purified Investiture (LM Ch 59 - White, with a mother-of-pearl sheen. Yes. It was like the pure Investiture from Moonlight’s jars.) Cultivation's is Green (WoR Ch 46) "Swimming in the emerald pools is death to outsiders" “Place of the gods?” “Yes,” Rock said. “Is where they live. The waters of life, they let you see place. In it, you commune with gods, if you are lucky.” I think those are all of the ones that have been described on-screen. My point exactly, thanks for compiling all of them Quote Right. I'm not entirely convinced myself that it might only link the PR and CR. My primary point was that we cannot assume it links all three realms "just because all perpendicularites link all three realms." I'm saying it is possible that because the Dor is in the CR (not the SR) it is also possible that the Arelon Shardpool only links those two realms (even if pre-Splintering it once acted as a normal Perpendicularity). It may be normal. It may glow, and we don't see that because it was Dawn and the characters couldn't see it, Glowing or not may be entirely dependant on the Shard involved. It was a valid theory to make, it's just very unlikely as we understand it right now. Quote Mostly I just want to point out assumptions versus known facts supported by direct evidence. That's generally a good thing to do, but there's a big gray area where WoBs near-confirm something but not entirely explicitly, so sometimes that's easier said than done. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Listing it like that makes sense why they would have colors associated with their Shard. Yes, now I can see it being true. I didn't know Cultivation's perpendicularity was described in such detail. Then it would make sense for Ruin's perpendicularity to be black as well (I was worried that because it wasn't written in Epigraphs, the "great black lake" might be a change made by Ruin). Like I said just above, when Vin refers to the lake as black, she's thinking of the logbook. You have made me question though, do we know that the epigraphs are unaltered? I had always assumed they were the exact same, altered or not. Quote I think there might be something to it, but rather than kinetic investiture, what about sentience? Shardblades are detectable by A-bronze only when summoning is happening, so summoned Shardblade isn't kinetic investiture. But it's sentient. Dead Shardblade have something missing in their mind, their sentience is impaired, that's why they glow less. Preservation's Shardpool is basically made out of Preservation's mind, and Dor is manifesting a mind of its own so TLM's perpendicularity would glow. That's actually a really good idea, that could totally be the case! I went for a quick break and have come back, and after ruminating on it for a while, it's not as bulletproof as I originally thought, though it still has merit. My problem is, The Dor isn't very sentient. It can barely be classified as such in Elantris, and even that by the very loosest of terms. Its sentience is defined mostly by wanting release. But where is the line between something wanting to do something and something inclined to do something as a feature of its nature? A ball rolls downhill on a slope. If the ball becomes sentient and wants to roll down the hill, what's the difference? You get the same result either way. Can the Dor truly be called sentient when it's only expressed feature of sentience is "wanting" to do something that it would be inclined to do by its nature anyway? That's mostly just philosophical rhetoric because I love psychology, but the problem is this: The Dor is not very sentient. It is, but barely. Yet it glows very brightly. Sprenblades, which are fully sapient, don't glow nearly as intensely. Edit: I just noticed you called Autonomy's Perpendicularity the Dor. We don't know if it's necessarily purified Dor that they're using. Edited June 20, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted June 20, 2023 Report Share Posted June 20, 2023 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I honestly don't know anything about White Sand beyond what's been observed of it because I can't get my hands on the White Sand books If you are on Sanderson's newsletter, your first email (confirmation) should have included the download link for the Prose version. If you have the Prose version, I can help you convert to epub, if you need an ebook version. If you are looking for the Graphic Novel Omnibus, it is available on the Dynomite website (in eBook and Physical Softcover - Hardcovers are still pre-order) I have already received my softcover omnibus, so they are shipping. 47 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Nightblood has the color-enhancing aura I believe, but when he's truly supposed to shine (literally) is when he's unsheathed, but we end up at the same problem in that he's black. Actually, it is a color darkening aura - different from the normal breath aura. Warbreaker Prologue: Spoiler the guard asked, stepping closer to the door. The colors of his uniform brightened, as if he’d stepped into a stronger light. The change was slight. Vasher didn’t have much Breath remaining, and so his aura didn’t do much to the colors around him. <snip> The colors in the room deepened. They didn’t grow brighter—not the way the guard’s vest had when he approached Vasher. Instead, they grew stronger. Darker. Reds became maroon. Yellows hardened to gold. Blues approached navy. 47 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: The Dor is not very sentient. It is, but barely. Yet it glows very brightly. Sprenblades, which are fully sapient, don't glow nearly as intensely. You are also possibly forgetting one major factor. Investiture is the Cosmere's "third" axis on the Matter-Energy spectrum. Dor escaping through invested arts is investiture converting into Energy - Shardblades, beads, etc are all examples of investiture manifesting as Matter. The proper comparison of Investiture -> Energy is Stormlight or how Breath glows when moving from the Awakener into a new person or construct. 47 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Edit: I just noticed you called Autonomy's Perpendicularity the Dor. We don't know if it's necessarily purified Dor that they're using. It's not really Autonomy's perpendicularity - it's a temporary one Autonomy helped them make to facilitate the invasion It was specifically described as being filled with the Liquid Dor to establish the link: (ch 60) Spoiler This pool had to hold thousands of jars’ worth of the power. Edited June 20, 2023 by Treamayne SPAG 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 20, 2023 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2023 10 minutes ago, Treamayne said: If you are on Sanderson's newsletter, your first email (confirmation) should have included the download link for the Prose version. If you have teh Prose version, I can help you convert to epub, if you need an ebook version. If you are looking for the Omnibus, it is available on the Dynomite website (in eBook and Physical Softcover - Hardcovers are still pre-order) :0 It's that easy??? I just downloaded it, thanks so much :DDDD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted June 20, 2023 Report Share Posted June 20, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: :0 It's that easy??? I just downloaded it, thanks so much :DDDD No worries. It's a word Doc and needs some TLC to be "readable" (or it did for me - such as underlines are the author's method of indicating italics). Aether of Night is the one you have to request from these forums - here. PS: I was in the middle of editing the post above when you posted this. Edited June 20, 2023 by Treamayne Link 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 20, 2023 Report Share Posted June 20, 2023 32 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Again, it could be, but it's two whole Shards' worth of Investiture. One Shard is already said to have an infinite amount of Investiture, having two infinities is just an absurd amount of power. Given that it will have settled in the depressions of Sel's landmasses, I'm not convinced that that much Investiture could fit in such a small space and not be incredibly dense, or denser than any other equivalent mass of Investiture in a similar state at the very least. Yes, Shard's power is almost infinite, that's why it's almost impossible for it to be fully pulled into CR by Odium. And Selish CR can be larger than usual because of Dor. And why can't Dor also be present where oceans are? I see no reason why not (yes, space of oceans in CR is contracted). And there is another dimension you didn't consider - height. Dor might be stretched vertically, not just horizontally. It's a storm after all. 35 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I think you misunderstood me here. If you had Dor in liquid form, like the Ghostbloods, that should make a Perpendicularity, if in the same amount as the stuff in Devotion's Perpendicularity. Its natural form on Sel is indeed Ionised and not liquid. That's why I specified Liquid Dor :) Ok, I did. And yes, it would form a perpendicularity. But we've never seen that much liquid Dor in one place (except for TLM if it is Dor (20x3 feet)). The most we've seen was a few jars of it in hands of Ire or Ghostbloods, not near enough to form perpendicularity. Natural Dor on Sel is plasma, not liquid, so no forming perpendicularity there. TLM ch 60: Quote The vast majority of the space was taken up by this one room with the glowing floor. Radiant light had been poured into a pool twenty feet wide, and it was beginning to churn. Glowing brightly. Lighting the walls a ghostly white. [...] This pool had to hold thousands of jars’ worth of the power. 40 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: That's a different scenario. Harmonium, Lerasium, and Atium could theoretically have any Density of Investiture because there is no requirement on how much Investiture they can or cannot have, whereas the Dor has to include all of the Investiture of two whole Shards. That's not my point. You're saying "Dor should be twice as dense". But where? How much Dor? We don't know how much it "weigh", how much space it takes or stuff like that. You don't seem to consider it. Would a jar of Dor be twice as investiture dense as a jar of Aonium? No. Not in my mind. Just because Dor is composed of 2 Shards, it doesn't mean that it has to be twice as dense - it can take twice as much space. In the same way 1l of water and 1l of oil won't take 1l of space and be twice as dense after mixing - they would take 2l of space and have the same combined density. That’s what I want to explain with Harmonium. 46 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: A lot of Harmonium together in one place forms a Perpendicularity, which needs a lot of Investiture. It requires so surprisingly little of the Harmonium that people are warned not to store even small amounts of Harmonium together. 3 barrels full of Harmonium didn't form any perpendicularity. That's not "small amounts". They have bombs made of it, huge primar cubes in ships (I don't know, I think, might be wrong). 48 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: It would be the most Investiture Dense form of it, but how much Investiture does it have? The beads are small, so it's not unreasonable that they wouldn't have enough to produce a glow. More than a glowing Stormlight... 49 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: But there are still visual clues. Vin leaks the Mists (so do people using the Bands) because she's oversaturated with Investiture. YES. Different investitures have different properties. They don't glow! She leaks them because a human vessel is not perfect enough - just like with Stormlight. Be Mist won't ever glow - it's not in their nature. That's my point. Not everything glows. 52 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Like I said just above, when Vin refers to the lake as black, she's thinking of the logbook. You have made me question though, do we know that the epigraphs are unaltered? I had always assumed they were the exact same, altered or not. They are unaltered - in WoA they were showing us true text from Kwaan's plate, not what Sazed was translating. But Alendi's logbook was written on paper so what was its true text? And I don't think there were any alterations in that text anyway. 56 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I went for a quick break and have come back, and after ruminating on it for a while, it's not as bulletproof as I originally thought, though it still has merit. My problem is, The Dor isn't very sentient. It can barely be classified as such in Elantris, and even that by the very loosest of terms. Its sentience is defined mostly by wanting release. But where is the line between something wanting to do something and something inclined to do something as a feature of its nature? A ball rolls downhill on a slope. If the ball becomes sentient and wants to roll down the hill, what's the difference? You get the same result either way. Can the Dor truly be called sentient when it's only expressed feature of sentience is "wanting" to do something that it would be inclined to do by its nature anyway? That's mostly just philosophical rhetoric because I love psychology, but the problem is this: The Dor is not very sentient. It is, but barely. Yet it glows very brightly. Sprenblades, which are fully sapient, don't glow nearly as intensely. That's too deep for me. But we know from AU that there is some sentience manifesting on Sel, that might be enough. And yes, it's not bulletproof - there is a voice in Devotion's perpendicularity but it doesn't glow - but that doesn't mean there is some sentience involved, maybe just a memory of devotion, or connection to timeless SR. 58 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Edit: I just noticed you called Autonomy's Perpendicularity the Dor. We don't know if it's necessarily purified Dor that they're using. No, we don't. It did form accidentally because of the large concentration of Metalborn in that area, but Set did bring some pure investiture into that place, to fill that perpendicularity, that's why I think Dor is the most likely. TLM ch 59: Quote “The location...” he said, turning back. “I think it’s because of those people, oddly. Such a large collection of Metalborn. And we were required to bring in a strange power, a glowing light. That’s part of the key.” 2 hours ago, Treamayne said: Actually, White Sand does glow - while it has an active Luhel Bond. Well, it didn't look glowing for me in the graphic novel. And in WoR/OB. But fair enough. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 20, 2023 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2023 (edited) Quote Actually, it is a color darkening aura - different from the normal breath aura. Warbreaker Prologue: Hide contents the guard asked, stepping closer to the door. The colors of his uniform brightened, as if he’d stepped into a stronger light. The change was slight. Vasher didn’t have much Breath remaining, and so his aura didn’t do much to the colors around him. <snip> The colors in the room deepened. They didn’t grow brighter—not the way the guard’s vest had when he approached Vasher. Instead, they grew stronger. Darker. Reds became maroon. Yellows hardened to gold. Blues approached navy. Right, thanks for clarifying, It's been a while since I last read Warbreaker. Quote You are also possibly forgetting one major factor. Investiture is the Cosmere's "third" axis on the Matter-Energy spectrum. Dor escaping through invested arts is investiture converting into Energy - Shardblades, beads, etc are all examples of investiture manifesting as Matter. The proper comparison of Investiture -> Energy is Stormlight or how Breath glows when moving from the Awakener into a new person or construct. The Dor glows on its own too, even when it isn't being used for Invested Arts. You could a Dor-infused sphere (It's possible, WoB below), A Light-infused sphere, and a Breath-infused Sphere to make the comparison (also possible, this one is easier to wrap your head around but I'll include the WoB anyway), with the Investiture measured into equal amounts through White Sand to make the test fair. Gems may not be the best apparatus to use since they seem to produce light more intense than what the Investiture alone could manage though, but it'll be difficult to hold Stormlight or Breath in one place long enough to be able to measure it's light output. It comes down to what we're trying to find, though. For measuring the different rates of Investiture-Energy conversion, your outlined experiment is fitting. But we're trying to compare how sentience affects the "glow" of Investiture, which isn't what's being measured here. You could maybe use it to extrapolate the correlation between sentience and glow, but nothing direct, and that opens a hole in the experiment, since correlation doesn't always necessarily mean causation, and other unknown factors may be affecting the light output. We just don't know enough about Investiture to be able to say, but it's as good a starting point as any. You would also need to devise a system for measuring sentience in an objective, quantifiable way. There's also another problem, in that the glow of Investiture may not actually be Investiture escaping as energy. Stormlight in perfect gems still produces light, even though the Stormlight cannot escape: Quote Alteroden With Stormlight, the better the gem is cut, the less Stormlight it leaks, and the longer it holds its charge. If a gem was perfectly cut, on a molecular scale, would it leak Stormlight at all? Brandon Sanderson In a theoretical flawless gem, then no it would not. Alteroden Would it actually give off light? Brandon Sanderson It probably would still give off light, because it's drawing out of the Spiritual Realm. So I’d say it still lights, but it doesn't leak. The leaking is not where the illumination is coming from. The illumination is coming from a direct... It's basically a light bulb screwed into the Spiritual Realm. Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015) So measuring Investiture-Energy conversion may not actually give us the right results to answer the question we're asking. The results would just show how good different Investitures are at channeling the SR, since the glow evidently isn't the Investiture becoming energy at all but rather illumination being filtered through from the SR using the Investiture as a conduit. This presents yet another problem. Since they're all different Investitures, we've added another factor other than Sentience that can affect the results, so the test is unfair. Ideally, we'd require differing levels of sentience in the Investiture in a form that can be stuck inside a gemstone. Theoretically, regular Dor, a Spren made out of Dor, and a True Spren made out of Dor, possibly a Seon, would work the best to get the relevant result. All those kinks aside though, this experiment should technically work to prove or disprove the theory. Nice job. One problem I've come across while deliberating on this though: Stormlight isn't sentient, but it glows rather spectacularly. That's a point against Alder's Theory. Quote It's not really Autonomy's perpendicularity - it's a temporary one Autonomy helped them make to facilitate the invasion It was specifically described as being filled with the Liquid Dor to establish the link: (ch 60) It's a comparison, it doesn't say it outright. I realize it's a small issue and it probably is Dor, but it technically hasn't been explicitly confirmed, unless I'm missing something. Edit: Forgot the WoBs: Quote Questioner How many Breaths would it take to infuse a gemstone? Brandon Sanderson Gemstones would be not that hard to infuse with Breaths. Like, you can get one glowing pretty well with one Breath... Depends on the size of the gemstone, obviously. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) Quote EvilAdolin If you take a gemstone from Roshar to Taldain, would it be charged with Autonomy's Light on Dayside? Brandon Sanderson It could capture it; I'm not sure if it would happen automatically. You could definitely get some Dor. I don't know that it's gonna naturally pick up Autonomous Light; it might though. That one's iffy for me, I'll have to think about it. I'm gonna say yes to that one, but it's not going to infuse very deeply. You're gonna get something in it, but it's going to vanish soon after, to the point that gemstones—they would have noticed on Taldain if gemstones just naturally picked this up. So, you're going to get just a little, little bit of a charge, but it's going to be almost imperceptible to someone without the right instruments. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) Edited June 20, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted June 20, 2023 Report Share Posted June 20, 2023 (edited) 29 minutes ago, alder24 said: Well, it didn't look glowing for me in the graphic novel. And in WoR/OB. But fair enough. I think that's one of the things they "fixed" for the Omnibus release - to make that more obvious. Prologue Excerpt: Spoiler 27 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I realize it's a small issue and it probably is Dor, but it technically hasn't been explicitly confirmed, unless I'm missing something. The in-book quotes were in the posts above. 27 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Stormlight isn't sentient, but it glows rather spectacularly. What says there is only one reason for Investiture to glow? Stormlight (in a gem) glows because it is investiture under pressure and "leaking" small amounts that convert to energy (light) as they escape the gem. Even perfect Gems (like the Kings Drop) show as glowing because pressurized investiture in the physical realm that has not been converted to matter (e. g. shardblades) will radiate energy (glow). Radiant Shardblades glow when in the form of matter, because that is part of their Intent - as an expression of the Order to which they belong. I know Alder thinks that sapience or sentience might be a factor in glowing; but I think it is far more likely that the investiture's state is a primary factor, at least for the physical realm (examples): Innate investiture - never glows that I am aware of Static Investiture - sometimes (Stormlight, yes; Copperminds, no) Active investiture - If this is even a category (Stormwall - yes, sometimes) Kinetic Investiture - Sometimes, depending on the type of investiture and the type of use Breath glows while moving from teh awakener to the construct, but not while animating the construct Chay Shan forms glowing patterns while summoning Dor, but the practitioner's body doesn't glow on its own while using Chay Shan Dakhor bones don't glow with active abilities (increased speed/strength) but do glow when using a more esoteric ability (Dilaf's glow when cancelling Raoden's Aon shield) Not to mention th eplethora of Radiant powers and when the glow depending on if they infuse somethign with light, paint it with light or just use an ability to affect it. . . Shardic Investiture - I don't think any use of the metallic arts cause a glow, White Sand does only when bonded, Stormlight does (depending on the implementation), Aons do (usually *), Stamps do not, Breath does - only when moving, etc. Shardic nature and invested art seems to tbe the other primary factor TLDR: You are looking for one unified answer. It doesn't exist. There is likely one of these factors that affects if a Shardpool may glow or not; but comparing every possible example of Investiture manifested in the Physical realm will probably not lead to that answer. *I say usually, because we haven't seen an Aonic Plate fabrial used - but in Raoden's memory, the Ashe Plates glowed (their function) but theTia plate did not glow - however the Elantrian activating it did before he disappeared. Edited June 20, 2023 by Treamayne SPAG 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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