Can Nightblood kill a spren?

[Hullooooo]

SO basically, the power of gods seems to be practically pure Invsture right? And in ROW Sezth damages a Heralds blade which were given by Honor, and so it would probably be safe to say a little part of Honor. Syl has in the past said the spren were basically little bits of divinity, which probably means they are parts of Honor. SO what would happen if a spren were to be stabbed by Nightblood? 

 

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ Male]

Don’t take this as a debunk because i really am just asking the question, if the power of a shard is Investure, then when Tarvangian kills Rayse, and it takes the vessel not the power (the power exist for Tarvangian to take it), wouldn’t that show that the power isn’t just Investure because the sword didn’t take it?

Edited June 20, 2023 by WitIsThe Best

[Aetherbound he/him]

1 hour ago, WitIsThe Best said:

Don’t take this as a debunk because i really am just asking the question, if the power of a shard is Investure, then when Tarvangian kills Rayse, and it takes the vessel not the power (the power exist for Tarvangian to take it), wouldn’t that show that the power isn’t just Investure because the sword didn’t take it?

I think it did take some of the power, but it couldn't absorb the whole thing.

[ftl]

4 hours ago, Hullooooo said:

SO basically, the power of gods seems to be practically pure Invsture right?

Correct
 

Quote

And in ROW Sezth damages a Heralds blade which were given by Honor, and so it would probably be safe to say a little part of Honor. Syl has in the past said the spren were basically little bits of divinity, which probably means they are parts of Honor. SO what would happen if a spren were to be stabbed by Nightblood?

The spren would be very very unhappy. Unclear if it would survive this; seems like the answer is probably not, though we don't know for sure.

Quote

Don’t take this as a debunk because i really am just asking the question, if the power of a shard is Investure, then when Tarvangian kills Rayse, and it takes the vessel not the power (the power exist for Tarvangian to take it), wouldn’t that show that the power isn’t just Investure because the sword didn’t take it?

 

Well, two possible answers that I can think of here:

One, that the sword only killed what was actually stabbed - the person (Rayse), not the power itself. The Shard of Odium was in the spiritual realm, and only the Vessel was vulnerable in the vision.

Two, that a Shard is just too big and too powerful. Yes, Nightblood consumes investiture, but a full shard is so much more Investiture than nightblood could possibly consume. Yes, it's powerful, but not compared to a Shard.

[therunner he/him]

4 hours ago, Hullooooo said:

SO basically, the power of gods seems to be practically pure Invsture right? And in ROW Sezth damages a Heralds blade which were given by Honor, and so it would probably be safe to say a little part of Honor. Syl has in the past said the spren were basically little bits of divinity, which probably means they are parts of Honor. SO what would happen if a spren were to be stabbed by Nightblood?

Spren in Shardblade form? Probably would be hurt but would survive, like Honorblade.

Spren in regular form? Dead, super dead. Nightblood has killed Vessel (much more Invested than spren), and Fused (which are comparable to spren), so it is well within its capabilities.

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Hullooooo said:

SO basically, the power of gods seems to be practically pure Invsture right? And in ROW Sezth damages a Heralds blade which were given by Honor, and so it would probably be safe to say a little part of Honor. Syl has in the past said the spren were basically little bits of divinity, which probably means they are parts of Honor. SO what would happen if a spren were to be stabbed by Nightblood? 

Dead and gone. If they weren't in a Shardblade form. Thunderclast was a spren killed by Nightblood permanently. Spren can be killed by Nightblood.

Spoiler

Questioner

I am curious about, if sprens are pieces of the god power, and investiture is the power of the god, then can Nightblood consume spren?

Brandon Sanderson

He could theoretically -- yeah, he could totally consume spren. There's not even any “theoretically” to that.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

My question is not really a question, it's more of a theory. How Odium keeps the Fused around is more if he has them tied to his essence, so it's like he's essentially fishing them out of the Spiritual Realm and since their minds are left behind in the Cognitive Realm and their minds are *inaudible* damaged, because their spirits are separated and it just pulls them back.

I'm 100% convinced Nightblood did kill the thunderclast, because Nightblood consumes all investiture, that's something I asked you back at Barnes and Noble a couple years ago, during Christmas and you said your soul is investiture. So my thought is, that thunderclast isn't coming back any time soon.

Brandon Sanderson

You are correct on that one.

Questioner

When I saw that, my thought was, "Yep, It's dead." Other people were like, "I don't know, will it come back?" Nope.

Brandon Sanderson

I'll tell you this. They have not run into something like this before, and there will be ramifications of what happened there.

Questioner

That is fun to know.

Brandon Sanderson

If you are used to death having no consequence, and suddenly your friend vanishes forever...

Questioner

Yeah I, know I already thought of that. They're going to fight over Nightblood.

Brandon Sanderson

Mmm.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

 

7 hours ago, WitIsThe Best said:

Don’t take this as a debunk because i really am just asking the question, if the power of a shard is Investure, then when Tarvangian kills Rayse, and it takes the vessel not the power (the power exist for Tarvangian to take it), wouldn’t that show that the power isn’t just Investure because the sword didn’t take it?

Nightblood did take some of Odium's power, but Shard's power is infinite, too big for Nightblood to make a dent in it. But he consumed just a tiny tiny bit of it. However because the Vessel was focusing his attention there, Rayse was there, his mind was there, that's why he got consumed fully, because he is much much smaller than the Shard.

Spoiler

Questioner

Nightblood has more Investiture than any other being, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Not every other being, but definitely one of the most highly Invested individuals that we have seen.

Questioner

So Nightblood, he was used to wound Odium. Is Odium now weaker than he was before?

Brandon Sanderson

Not in a relevant way. Technically, yes. Not in a relevant way. The amount taken, compared to how much there is, is pretty small. And a whole bunch of what happened there was focused on the Vessel, not on Odium itself.

Questioner

Could Nightblood consume Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood would get full before consuming even the smallest fraction amount of Odium. As you saw, Nightblood kind of got full in that instance. Actually, it was with the perpendicularity, it would be similar to that. So for those who are wondering, no, you can't stab Nightblood into the planet and absorb the planet. Nightblood is really dangerous, as we've seen, but we're not talking "absorb planets" dangerous.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

Spoiler

lucagreene18

If Szeth were to have drawn Nightblood immediately after he had consumed Rayse, would he still have drained Szeth's Stormlight? As it said he seemed like he had eaten as much as he could.

Brandon Sanderson

At that point, Nightblood had entered into essentially a food coma... Well, no, the food coma one came when he was drawing from the perpendicularity. I don't think he was in food coma mode at that point. I think that he could still have drawn more at that point, I'd have to go look at exactly what I wrote, if I'd put him into food coma mode or not. It is possible.

This is one of the things I wanted to answer with the book. A lot of people have been theorizing, could Nightblood eat an entire Shard? And indeed, Nightblood could not eat an entire Shard. That is not within his capability. In fact, one of the reasons that he leaks Investiture is: he's too stuffed full of it. There is more Investiture in the sword Nightblood than it can actually hold, it's supersaturated. And it leaks Investiture (that it's done some weird things to). But it is constantly hungry for more and constantly leaks it, but it definitely can get full for a time, and it could not eat an entire Shard.

I did see questions about that from people floating around, and it's something I'd been meaning to get to eventually. Nightblood is definitely relevant to things that are happening in the Cosmere, but it is not as simple as grabbing the sword, sticking it into a Shard, and defeating the Shard, unfortunately. Though, as you see in this book, there are reasons for a Shard to still be afraid of Nightblood. It didn't destroy Odium, but Rayse still really had a bad time.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

[Letryx13]

On 6/20/2023 at 6:57 AM, alder24 said:

Nightblood did take some of Odium's power, but Shard's power is infinite, too big for Nightblood to make a dent in it. But he consumed just a tiny tiny bit of it. However because the Vessel was focusing his attention there, Rayse was there, his mind was there, that's why he got consumed fully, because he is much much smaller than the Shard.

That was how I read the scene too.  Taravangian managed to strike Rayse directly, so the vessel got hit, but there was too much investiture for NightBlood to consume, so it basically just gorged itself until it was full.

[Stormlit Shard he/him]

Night blood could definitely kill a Spren that's not in Shardblade form, Kaladin and Syl even did that to protect Elhokars son in WoR. but Night blood chipped an honorblade, much more powerful than a shardblade, so nightblood might even be able to kill a spren when in shardblade form. it would at least chip the shardblade and could possibly do permanent damage to the spren.

 

[Firesong she/her]

28 minutes ago, Stormlit Shard said:

I don't know what Nighblood would do to a deadeye spren though.

It would do the same thing, I don't see why it would be any different. They are still made of the same substance. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Firesong

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Forums!

54 minutes ago, Stormlit Shard said:

Night blood could definitely kill a Spren that's not in Shardblade form, Kaladin and Syl even did that to protect Elhokars son in WoR. but Night blood chipped an honorblade, much more powerful than a shardblade, so nightblood might even be able to kill a spren when in shardblade form. it would at least chip the shardblade and could possibly do permanent damage to the spren.

52 minutes ago, Stormlit Shard said:

I don't know what Nighblood would do to a deadeye spren though.

But please try not to double post (also please be aware of how the post to which you are replying is; while this wasn't quite a thread necro - but anything over about 6 months old should have relevant new data or just start a new thread and reference the old thread). Here are some tools you may not yet be aware of that may help:

Spoiler

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Hope that helps.

27 minutes ago, Firesong said:

It would do the same thing, I don't see why it would be any different. They are still made of the same substance. 

Exactly - in the Physical realm and shardblade form - damage is most likely. In the Cognitive realm, no more deadeye.

 

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Stormlit Shard said:

Kaladin and Syl even did that to protect Elhokars son in WoR

That was in OB, and they didn't kill that spren: 

Spoiler

Pinpoint

Can Shardblades kill spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, yes.

Footnote: Rhythm of War says that spren will not die when cut with a shardblade. It is unknown if this WoB is overruled, or if there is some way to kill spren using shardblades that is not currently known.
Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014)

 

Spoiler

ladrac1

What, if anything, would happen if you swing a Shardblade through a seon?

Brandon Sanderson

So, seon would not like being- a Shardblade swung through them, how about that. A seon would not enjoy that. Spren don't enjoy it either. That isn't necessarily going to kill either of them, but they're not going to like it.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

 

[Marabout]

Syl obviously killed that Spren in OB

BS is just backpedaling / reverse engineering because they made such a big deal about making a weapon that can kill Spren in RoW that it would seem stupid if any old shardblade could do it.

[Treamayne]

58 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That was in OB, and they didn't kill that spren: 

28 minutes ago, Marabout said:

Syl obviously killed that Spren in OB

BS is just backpedaling / reverse engineering because they made such a big deal about making a weapon that can kill Spren in RoW that it would seem stupid if any old shardblade could do it.

OB Ch 84:

Spoiler

Kaladin joined Syl and glanced behind the dressing screen, which had been pushed back against the wall to section off a small cubby. Here a child—two or three years old—huddled and trembled, clutching a stuffed soldier. Several spren with soft red glows were picking at him like cremlings at a corpse. The boy tried to turn his head, and the spren pulled on the back of his hair until he looked up, while others hovered in front of his face and took horrific shapes, like horses with melting faces.

Kaladin reacted with swift, immediate rage. He growled, seizing the Sylblade from the air, forming a small dagger from mist. He drove the dagger forward and caught one of the spren, pinning it to the wall’s wooden paneling. He had never known a Shardblade to cut a spren before, but this worked. The thing screamed in a soft voice, a hundred hands coming from its shape and scraping at the Blade, at the wall, until it seemed to rip into a thousand tiny pieces, then faded.

The other three red spren streaked away in a panic. In his hands, Kaladin felt Syl tremble, then groan softly. He released her, and she took the shape of a small woman. “That was … that was terrible,” she whispered, floating over to land on his shoulder. “Did we … just kill a spren?”

“The thing deserved it,” Kaladin said.

Syl just huddled on his shoulder, wrapping her arms around herself.

I don't think this is a RetCon. Even Syl isn't sure that they killed it and the WoB says that they did not. More likely, they severed it's connection to the Physical Realm (possibly making it a deadeye) - which is very different from the Anti-Light which annihilates the investiture from which the spren is formed. 

[Marabout]

I’m not sure you can make a Deadeye without a Nahel bond as they didn’t exist prior to BAM’s imprisonment with the main theory being that this altered the bonds somehow.  
Syl seems fairly convinced they killed that poor little Spren.

BS is a genius writer but isn’t perfect…this is a RetCon

[alder24]

34 minutes ago, Marabout said:

BS is a genius writer but isn’t perfect…this is a RetCon

In OB there is no confirmation if they kill that spren, only suspicion on Syl part. Later in RoW they said that a Shardblade can't kill a spren in that way (per WoB, no idea where). This isn't a retcon, just clarification. 

[Marabout]

That’s pretty much the definition of a RetCon

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Marabout said:

That’s pretty much the definition of a RetCon

Nothing was changed, nothing was revised. We had 2 possibilities, either spren got killed or not, and RoW gave us the answer. If you consider this a retcon then the reveal that the Shardbearer killed by Kaladin in WoK is Shallan's brother would be a retcon. 

[Firesong she/her]

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Nothing was changed, nothing was revised. We had 2 possibilities, either spren got killed or not, and RoW gave us the answer. If you consider this a retcon then the reveal that the Shardbearer killed by Kaladin in WoK is Shallan's brother would be a retcon. 

Yeah, that definition is way too wide. It isn't a retcon as it didn't explicitly say that they can kill it, it was quite explicitly framed as a question. Another thing is just that, Stormlight is through the eyes of the characters, there are a lot of things they are wrong about. Like Szeth being very wrong about Surgebinding due to basing it on Honorblades. Or basically everyone was wrong about most of human history on Roshar. That very premise that permeates the Stormlight Archive backs up that the question was indeed not meant as a 100% confirmation, especially when they didn't even say that it did. 

Even that 2014 WoB implies that it isn't as he put a lot of weight on theoretically, I doubt he would say that if all it took was one stab. When he words things like this, he typically means "It requires very special circumstances". 

So... yeah, not a Retcon. 

Things like Atium change are a Retcon, an old one sure; one that fits pretty perfectly with the old text, again, yeah; but still a retcon nonetheless. 

So this isn't just be denying that he does retcons. I just, find this to not be one. 

 

[Marabout]

Jeez people

You have one WoB saying shardblades can kill Spren followed by another saying they can’t.

You have one book showing a shardblade killing a Spren then the next book stating they can’t.

How much more clear does it have to be?

As I’ve said, BS is a brilliant writer but not infallible.  There is no way he can plan ahead for every little detail.  He’s even said in WoBs that he hasn’t decided on certain topics yet.  Every detail can’t be mapped out in advance.  This isn’t a sin, it’s a fact of life.

And I’m well aware that his writing style involves lots of “gotcha” moments where the characters’ preconceptions / viewpoints are shown to be very wrong.

You are no less of a fan of BS’s writing if you recognize that RetCons happen from time to time.  But a lot of you seem to treat his writing as gospel.

Anyway, it’s a pointless topic as it is now canon that a shardblade can’t kill a Spren (and I’m fine with that)

P.S. There’s a ton of RetCon in Shallan’s arc (come at me trolls!)

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

16 minutes ago, Marabout said:

Jeez people

You have one WoB saying shardblades can kill Spren followed by another saying they can’t.

You have one book showing a shardblade killing a Spren then the next book stating they can’t.

How much more clear does it have to be?

The WoB is saying you can theoretically kill a spren with a Shardblade, but that's not necessarily what Kaladin and Syl did. It's like asking if stabbing someone with a knife can kill them; it can, but not always, depending on other factors. OB shows Kal attacking a Spren with Syl, and Syl asking if they killed it, and RoW clarifies that what's going on there doesn't kill the Spren, they just reform after a little while.

16 minutes ago, Marabout said:

Anyway, it’s a pointless topic as it is now canon that a shardblade can’t kill a Spren (and I’m fine with that)

The WoB still stands; if you know what you're doing, you can kill a Spren with a Shardblade. The fact that he says theoretically makes it sound like it's difficult or you need to do something more specific than just stab it. They can be killed wth Shardblades, the characters just don't know that yet.

16 minutes ago, Marabout said:

P.S. There’s a ton of RetCon in Shallan’s arc (come at me trolls!)

Such as? I'm asking mostly because it could possibly be one of the intentional holes in her backstory due to the DID.

[alder24]

18 minutes ago, Marabout said:

You have one WoB saying shardblades can kill Spren followed by another saying they can’t.

We have 2 WoBs saying that a Shardblade can theoretically kill a spren. That means there are sets of specific circumstances needed for it to happen. The second WoB said "hat isn't necessarily going to kill either of them" and because the word "necessarily" it means there are circumstances where a Shardblade can kill a spren. Those 2 WoBs said the same thing. Read them again please. 

19 minutes ago, Marabout said:

You have one book showing a shardblade killing a Spren then the next book stating they can’t.

We have a book showing something happened to a spren struck by a Shardblade, without explicitly telling us what that was. It was speculated by Syl that they killed a spren, she even asked if they kill a spren, because she didn't know what happened. That wasn't any kind of confirmation.

It simply wasn't a retcon by definition. Yes, retcons happens, just not here. 

[Marabout]

Disagree, but I appreciate your opinion

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

4 minutes ago, Marabout said:

Disagree, but I appreciate your opinion

That's fair, but the Shallan plot holes?

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

36 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I mean, they literally just said it to provoke us. As you can tell by the way they worded it and called for people to attack them, "come at me trolls". It is best not to engage at this point.

The one complaint I have about the 17th Shard is that people start butting heads way too often when they have conflicting perspectives. The fact that it's a written medium means tone isn't conveyed, so someone can take something as being in bad faith even if it wasn't intended as such. Plus with the pseudo-scholarly nature of what we're discussing, it encourages more formal/technical language and longer, detailed responses, which can be seen as condescending or spiteful, again because of the lack of tone or expression to make your intention clear. That's probably going to get you a less polite response, which is going to make you in turn be less polite than you would have been otherwise, and it devolves from there. It doesn't make a good impression on new Sharders, and it's distasteful in general.

They seem reasonable, if a little defensive, so as long as there's a way to go back to constructive conversation and move past the little disagreement, I'll take it. Did they mean the Shallan thing as a barb? Probably. But is it an opportunity to redirect the conversation in a positive direction? Absolutely, so I'll take it.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[Firesong she/her]

I will explain my idea on this, as I feel bad for my own behavior:

When asked, Brandon only said one theoretically could kill a Spren with a Shardblade, this implies one cannot in normal circumstances, not that it can be easily done with one swipe. If that was the case, he wouldn't have answered it like that. When he says theoretically, he does in fact mean theoretically. In many cases when he says it he means it is absurdly complex and requires a lot of special circumstances. 

Some examples of him using theoretically for rare things

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Could a Radiant ever belong to multiple Orders?

Brandon Sanderson

This is theoretically possible, but it was not done in the past. It’s just not a thing that you did. It was not kosher. But it is theoretically possible.

You’d have to find spren that had volition, and you would have to convince multiple demigods to be okay with this.

The fact that you can be a Knight Radiant and you could pick up one of the Honorblades and have access to those Surges… I mean, there’s an easier way to do it, in that case. (If you consider getting a hold of one of the Honorblades to be easy.)

But it is theoretically possible to have something like that happen.

Quote

Yoitsthew

 Theoretically, would it be possible to form a new shard from splinters of multiple other Shards? Could I have posses enough investiture from Honor, Cultivation, and/or Odium and effectively become Unity, without holding the entirety of those shards?? I’m really just curious haha.

Brandon Sanderson

What you want here is theoretically possible, but more difficult than it sounds.

Quote

Stormlightning

How hard would it be for a Sleepless to imitate the larkin powers in one of their hordelings?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, they would take generations and generations of purposeful attempts at mutating that out.

Stormlightning

Could they theoretically do it?

Brandon Sanderson

They could theoretically do it.

Quote

Questioner

So, a Radiant's blade. When it takes other forms, does it take on any different properties? So, like, if Kaladin beat someone with the butt of his Sylspear, would it still do something in regards to the soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Would he still hit the soul? That is theoretically possible to make happen. It requires a lot of work. That is theoretically possible.

Quote

Questioner

I have a question about Mistborn. Is it possible for a spike to steal powers from other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible, yes.

Questioner

And, by extension, Feruchemical storage... in the metalmind...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, in the metalmind, if they had the other power, could they store the power...

Questioner

If there is the Feruchemist, like the...

Brandon Sanderson

So that is theoretically possible, but it would take a lot of finagling. Yeah, theoretically possible.

Quote

Questioner

Using Hemalurgy, could you steal the boon from the Old Magic?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, from the Nightwatcher? This is theoretically possible.

Questioner

Would that take the [curse] with it as well?

Brandon Sanderson

*Hesitantly* Yes. Though it's also theoretically possible to split them apart, that would be a lot harder. Getting the boon, if you knew what you were doing, would not be that difficult.

Now, what Cultivation would do to you when she found out that had happened is another thing entirely. Because those are willful grants of Investiture.

Questioner

Similar to Endowment's with the Returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, things like that. When you get a Shard involved and the Shard has..  power to... Same thing like...it's on a much grander scale what's happening with the spren bond, right?

Questioner

When Hemalurgy does spread, most Shards will not be happy about this, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is correct.

Quote

Kolby Bradshaw

Could a spren bond another spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically possible, probably not a direction I'm ever going to go in the books for inception/recursive sort of weirdness reasons, but theoretically possible.

Quote

Questioner

Can Nightblood attract spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood could theoretically attract spren. I don't think he really does yet, but I think this is theoretically possible. 

Quote

Megasif

In London I wanted to ask about Nightblood. The way he is Invested, is that a one-off-case kind of thing, or is it possible to do another of that level?

Brandon Sanderson

It was really bizarre, and I will explain it eventually and that will let you know why. It's theoretically possible to do almost anything so it's theoretically possible to do what he did but it'd be very hard.

Quote

Questioner

Theoretically, with enough Stormlight, could a Bondsmith bond a Shard to something?

Brandon Sanderson

With enough Investiture? Yeah, that's viable. Yeah. Good question.

(not exactly him saying theoretically, but it was implied here)

Quote

/u/brnbrn1996 (paraphrased)

Is it possible for a sentient bit of Investiture to pick up a Shard? Like a spren or Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It would be possible yes, well, for a spren or a seon for example, it would. Nightblood could theoretically but it would be difficult for various reasons.

/u/brnbrn1996 (paraphrased)

Right, because he has no hands.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*graciously chuckles at my dumb joke*

/u/brnbrn1996 (paraphrased)

Would they have to be embodied to be able to actually use it effectively, or would they have the same limitations as Kelsier did when he was a cognitive shadow ?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They would have the same limitations yes, but there are ways around that.

/u/brnbrn1996 (paraphrased)

Right, like Ishar is working on.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Right.

Quote

WeiryWriter

Can a person who dies but somehow hasn't passed Beyond the Three Realms serve in place of a spren for Radiant purposes?

Brandon Sanderson

This is theoretically possible, but it would require an unusual sequence of events.

WeiryWriter

We know that the Stormfather is a Cognitive Shadow and is also acting as a spren for Dalinar but is he able to do that because the "unusual sequence of events" took place or is there something else going on specific to the nature of the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Carluun

If [Redacted] became a "spren" for a Radiant, would he grant Surgebinding or Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Quote

the other Nathan

If a large group of Windrunners lashed enough mass towards a single point, could they create a black hole?

Brandon Sanderson

Offhand, I think that would be theoretically possible, though in practicality impossible. We'd need [Peter Ahlstrom] to do some math.

Quote

Questioner

Could you Awaken a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhhhhhh yes but it would reeeeeaaaalllllllyyyyy hard. Theoretically possible.

etc, basically, he lets theoretically do a lot of heavy lifting

 

The case with the Spren only showed them break apart, which Spren can do without dying. And they never confirmed that it died, they simply asked if it did, and received no answer. So it does not really contradict RoW as it was never explicitly stated that they did manage to kill the Spren. 

He further establishes not just in RoW but in a WoB

Quote

ladrac1

What, if anything, would happen if you swing a Shardblade through a seon?

Brandon Sanderson

So, seon would not like being- a Shardblade swung through them, how about that. A seon would not enjoy that. Spren don't enjoy it either. That isn't necessarily going to kill either of them, but they're not going to like it.

We also know that Anti-Light was planned from the start, as it was a major part of the overall narrative, and began to show up very early in the series. He actually mentioned it was core from the start as he felt it would become necessary later.

Quote

Full WoB: (Full Cosmere Spoilers)

Spoiler

Chaos

How much do you plan in the cosmere? There were a few things in Rhythm of War [that went in] a different direction, like anti-Investiture, that black sphere Gavilar had in the prologue being anti-Investiture, and Testament and Shallan, were those always part of the plan or options?

Brandon Sanderson

Those were always options. Anti-Investiture has been pretty core for a long time, there are a couple reasons for this. Number one I need to get certain resources into the cosmere for use in the future, and anti-Investiture is one of those. Another reason is I want to push Stormlight Archive more towards magic-tech, because I'm pushing Mistborn more towards Earth analog with Earth technology and then some cool fantastical things thrown in, but when you're using the technology. When you're using a radio on Scadrial, it's a radio. You know what a radio is. It works based on radio principles, and maybe you can do some wacky things with weight, but an airship is kind of an airship to them where as I want Roshar which is on the opposite end of that spectrum. Where an airship on Roshar is not an airship like you would imagine. Its not being propelled in normal ways it's working off all these weird magical things. And anti-Investiture was an important thing to get into the series for the future for that reason.

From book one I knew I needed magical healing for Roshar, [for] the stories I wanted to tell to work. And I needed some really powerful magical healing. Particularly for the Knights Radiant, because of the stories I wanted to tell, this meant I was going to be very much under cutting the danger of physical violence in The Stormlight Archive as we move forward as the characters became Radiants. It is really hard to kill a Radiant in combat and there need to be foils to that. 

Beyond that from the first chapter of the first cosmere novel Elantris, death has not been the end. [hosts laugh] We start the first book with someone being resurrected. That's one of the main themes of the cosmere is a second chance at life. This is Raoden's story, this is Lightsong's story, this is Kelsier's story, this is a major theme of the cosmere, and I needed to be introducing into the cosmere a "dead is dead" mechanic. And I considered Shardblades for that for a while, before I even released Stormlight. No, it can't be Shardblades, because I can't have every battle - once lots of people have Shardblades then there's no purpose to the magical healing. So I needed another tool for the late part of the cosmere, when people have figured out Cognitive Shadows; How do you destroy a Cognitive Shadow? Well there are ways, but throw some anti-Investiture at them and that's guaranteed, you are gonna kill that Shadow, and I'd been pushing towards where to get this in, and this book felt like the right place. It was either this book or book five, and where it settled into this book is where I finally made the decision that I was gonna let Navani be a main character, which she had been pushing to be for a while, and I'd been pushing back. No, I deserve to have a scientist, an actual straight up scientist main character in The Stormlight who can dig into some of this stuff. I can self-indulge by doing that, as long as I balance it with Kaladin behind enemy lines fight sequences and things, for a more traditional structure. Because Navani's scenes do not have a traditional structure. They're like "we're going to do science now! But we're making up the science also?!"

Censored WoB: (Just Stormlight)

Spoiler

Chaos

How much do you plan in the cosmere? There were a few things in Rhythm of War [that went in] a different direction, like anti-Investiture, that black sphere Gavilar had in the prologue being anti-Investiture, and Testament and Shallan, were those always part of the plan or options?

Brandon Sanderson

Those were always options. Anti-Investiture has been pretty core for a long time, there are a couple reasons for this. Number one I need to get certain resources into the cosmere for use in the future, and anti-Investiture is one of those. Another reason is I want to push Stormlight Archive more towards magic-tech...

From book one I knew I needed magical healing for Roshar, [for] the stories I wanted to tell to work. And I needed some really powerful magical healing. Particularly for the Knights Radiant, because of the stories I wanted to tell, this meant I was going to be very much under cutting the danger of physical violence in The Stormlight Archive as we move forward as the characters became Radiants. It is really hard to kill a Radiant in combat and there need to be foils to that. 

...and I needed to be introducing into the cosmere a "dead is dead" mechanic. And I considered Shardblades for that for a while, before I even released Stormlight. No, it can't be Shardblades, because I can't have every battle - once lots of people have Shardblades then there's no purpose to the magical healing. So I needed another tool for the late part of the cosmere, when people have figured out Cognitive Shadows; How do you destroy a Cognitive Shadow? Well there are ways, but throw some anti-Investiture at them and that's guaranteed, you are gonna kill that Shadow, and I'd been pushing towards where to get this in, and this book felt like the right place. It was either this book or book five, and where it settled into this book is where I finally made the decision that I was gonna let Navani be a main character, which she had been pushing to be for a while, and I'd been pushing back. No, I deserve to have a scientist, an actual straight up scientist main character in The Stormlight who can dig into some of this stuff. I can self-indulge by doing that, as long as I balance it with Kaladin behind enemy lines fight sequences and things, for a more traditional structure. Because Navani's scenes do not have a traditional structure. They're like "we're going to do science now! But we're making up the science also?!"

 

So, I don't see any contradictions in this. The Spren merely dissolved and likely reformed elsewhere.

Quote

Kaladin reacted with swift, immediate rage. He growled, seizing the Sylblade from the air, forming a small dagger from mist. He drove the dagger forward and caught one of the spren, pinning it to the wall’s wooden paneling. He had never known a Shardblade to cut a spren before, but this worked. The thing screamed in a soft voice, a hundred hands coming from its shape and scraping at the Blade, at the wall, until it seemed to rip into a thousand tiny pieces, then faded.

The other three red spren streaked away in a panic. In his hands, Kaladin felt Syl tremble, then groan softly. He released her, and she took the shape of a small woman. “That was … that was terrible,” she whispered, floating over to land on his shoulder. “Did we … just kill a spren?”

This is just asking a question, not establishing a fact. Therefore, it can be reasonably assumed that their assumption is incorrect. 

This is further established early in RoW, which explains what happened in a way that fits with everything else we knew before. 

Quote

They can also be cut by a Shardblade, but it won't kill them and they will reform in the Cognitive Realm after some time.^[36]

36: RoW Chapter 2

So, I am of the belief that there was not a retcon in this particular point. 

He just meant there is a special way to use a Shardblade that could potentially kill a spren, but it just isn't any normal stab or slash with the blade. 

An alternate theory:

I also have an alternate theory of what happened:

Quote

Kaladin reacted with swift, immediate rage. He growled, seizing the Sylblade from the air, forming a small dagger from mist. He drove the dagger forward and caught one of the spren, pinning it to the wall’s wooden paneling. He had never known a Shardblade to cut a spren before, but this worked. The thing screamed in a soft voice, a hundred hands coming from its shape and scraping at the Blade, at the wall, until it seemed to rip into a thousand tiny pieces, then faded.

The other three red spren streaked away in a panic. In his hands, Kaladin felt Syl tremble, then groan softly. He released her, and she took the shape of a small woman. “That was … that was terrible,” she whispered, floating over to land on his shoulder. “Did we … just kill a spren?”

This establishes the sheer strangeness that they made contact with it and were able to do this, it puts a lot of focus on it being very strange, both of them being confused by it. This could imply something deeper is going on, and that this is not normal. It might have to do with the Son of Tanavast thing with Kaladin. 

Or it could be that that one Spren he interacted with was something different from normal. The Spren is shown to be Corrupted, and notably strange, which gives credence to the idea that it was something weird with that Spren. 

Conclusion:

Either way, I am of the opinion that it is not a retcon. Unlike things like the Atium retcon (and I don't mind that one, as it actually makes a lot of sense in canon and explains a lot.) You are fine to disagree, but I recommend you don't resort to insulting people for not agreeing with you that it is one. Open aggression and attempts at provocation should be avoided on this forum. For clarity, I am referring to calling us trolls for disagreeing with you, and attempting to provoke us. Such behavior is not acceptable.

But simply disagreeing is perfectly acceptable.   

I apologize again for my behavior. I so do wish to have civil discussions that do not devolve into insults.  

Edited August 16, 2023 by Firesong