Gender of spren

[ajotatxe he/him]

I'm noted that most knight radiants bond with a spren of the opposite gender, at least in known cases.

There are only, as far as I know, two exceptions to this rule: 

Dalinar - Stormfather

Renarin - Glys

I have looked for possible reasons for this, with little success. It seems that is an in-world fact, but it could be also a stylistic decision of Sanderson.

Some thoughts?

Edited June 20, 2023 by ajotatxe
Grammar

[External Gills he/him]

Nice catch, seems it's a bit of both:

Spoiler

Questioner

What's the relationship between the Knights Radiant and their opposite gender spren? Is that important or not?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah it is slightly important.

Questioner

I have to RAFO it though?

Brandon Sanderson

It's more important narratively than it is in the world. It happens more often but it doesn't mean anything when it doesn't happen, does that makes sense? So it's slightly important, partialy it's a narrative trick. I want to keep some gender balance and it's a lot easier to play off someone different than yourself, and things like that so I naturally do that. It doesn't necessarily mean anything when I don't. It depends on the personality of the spren.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 23, 2017)

Spoiler

Narkac

KR seemed to have opposite gender spren. Why is Glys male then? Is there something hidden there?

Brandon Sanderson

More naturally, the spren is opposite gender but it doesn't have to be. It's not a indication necessarily of homosexuality, but sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. More often, you'll attract spren of the opposite gender, but spren genders are very fluid anyway. You're not supposed to read anything specific into that.

Paris signing (Oct. 22, 2016)

Spoiler

Questioner

Does gender play a role in how a spren chooses a Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

It does but it is not a strict... It's just spren are going to have preferences like people have preferences and that does play into it but there's not really any sort of strict...

If you want to know narratively, behind the scenes, it tends to work to pair opposite genders together, because it just makes for better conversations and things like that. And it makes the cast fill out a little bit better with a little more variety. So that's why you see the writer side of me doing it, but in-world my kind of explanation is they have preferences.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, ajotatxe said:

I'm noted that most knight radiants bond with a spren of the opposite gender, at least in known cases.

There are only, as far as I know, two exceptions to this rule: 

Dalinar - Stormfather

Renarin - Glys

I have looked for possible reasons for this, with little success. It seems that is an in-world fact, but it could be also a stylistic decision of Sanderson.

Some thoughts?

The Lopen and his bonded Honorspren Rua are also both male. 

Often, the Spren will be of a gender that matches a Radiant's relationship preference, but not always. Also, not all spren are binary. (Oathbringer Ch 7)

Spoiler

“So … some of my spears have been women, then?” he asked.

“Female, at least,” Syl said. “Roughly half, as these things tend to go.” She flitted up into the air in front of him. “It’s your fault for personifying us, so no complaining. Of course, some of the old spren have four genders instead of two.”

“What? Why?”

She poked him in the nose. “Because humans didn’t imagine those ones, silly.”

 

[The Stormfather He/Him]

I think that spren bond whoever they see fits their expectations, but some coincedence happens that the bonds they make are of opposite genders.

Renarin can be seen as a special case because of glys, and Dalinar practicallly made the stormfather bond him instead of another, and lopen is, well lopen.

One thing is in the matter of venli and rlain, Is timbre malen or male? and is whoever rlains hopefully going to bond have a human gender or a singer gender.

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

On 6/21/2023 at 1:50 PM, stormform wert said:

I think that spren bond whoever they see fits their expectations, but some coincedence happens that the bonds they make are of opposite genders.

Renarin can be seen as a special case because of glys, and Dalinar practicallly made the stormfather bond him instead of another, and lopen is, well lopen.

One thing is in the matter of venli and rlain, Is timbre malen or male? and is whoever rlains hopefully going to bond have a human gender or a singer gender.

 

Generally, it seems that there would be far fewer malen or femalen Spren because they're from a time when Singers were far more abundant on Roshar than humans, but over time (and after the Recreance), most malen and femalen Spren would have died or become Deadeyes and been replaced by male and female Spren personified by Humans. It's hard to tell though, how would you know whether a Spren like Syl is female or femalen? The two are virtually the same, femalens just can't reproduce, and the same goes for male and malen Spren.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Generally, it seems that there would be far fewer malen or femalen Spren because they're from a time when Singers were far more abundant on Roshar than humans, but over time (and after the Recreance), most malen and femalen Spren would have died or become Deadeyes and been replaced by male and female Spren personified by Humans. It's hard to tell though, how would you know whether a Spren like Syl is female or femalen? The two are virtually the same, femalens just can't reproduce, and the same goes for male and malen Spren.

I don't think ANY True Spren has genders like Singers, because they are direct Splinters of Honor and Cultivation, and those two were a human and a dragon. All True Spren would therefore have only 2 genders, male and female. True Spren's self perception would limit the influence of perception of others on them. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I don't think ANY True Spren has genders like Singers, because they are direct Splinters of Honor and Cultivation, and those two were a human and a dragon. All True Spren would therefore have only 2 genders, male and female. True Spren's self perception would limit the influence of perception of others on them. 

Well, Syl outright says that some older Spren have four genders, so I don't know if I agree. Koravellium is a dragon, yet there aren't any Dragon True Spren. Just because they're made of a specific Shard's Investiture doesn't mean they have to bend to the specific Vessel's species. If forces were personified into True Spren, they would adhere to the perceptions that created them first, and then bend to the Self perceptions they develop.

It's a bit like the Returned, who are also Splinters. They can change their appearance with a little practice, but their default form is determined not just by how they view their own self, but also how they view societal beauty standards.

That said, that's for if Spren developed naturally. If Honor and Cultivation hand designed them, then maybe Tanavast made them as human, but given the way Cultivation designs the Nightwatcher, I'm sure she wouldn't stick only to humans

[alder24]

41 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Well, Syl outright says that some older Spren have four genders, so I don't know if I agree

Yes, "Because humans didn’t imagine those ones, silly". But True Spren were imagined by a human, they were created by Honor and Cultivation. Lesser spren might just spontaneously manifest when Dawnsingers thought about some aspect of nature, emotions or things.

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

Lesser Spren don't have gender, as far as I'm aware. They're animalistic, the idea of gender doesn't apply to them. Gender would only apply to True Spren. My interpretation of what Syl said was that Honorspren from back when Singers were the dominant species. Do we know for sure that True Spren only became a thing after Humans replaced Singers as the dominant species? Leshwi asks Venli to ask Timbre whether or not she knows a specific Honorspren. It could have been an Honorspren she befriended after becoming a Fused, but as far as I'm aware there isn't any proof that Honorspren did not exist before Odium and the Desolations. Do the Spren not mention a betrayal before the Recreance, one of the Singers?

[alder24]

26 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Lesser Spren don't have gender, as far as I'm aware. They're animalistic, the idea of gender doesn't apply to them.

A spear has gender, why not lesser spren? It's just not recognizable at all. 

28 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

My interpretation of what Syl said was that Honorspren from back when Singers were the dominant species

Syl was talking about "spren" as cognitive manifestation, like spear's one, not literal spren - some spren might have 4 genders, but things can too. 

29 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Do we know for sure that True Spren only became a thing after Humans replaced Singers as the dominant species?

True spren existed before all of that. Long enough for Dawnsingers to befriend them. Song of Secrets: "the betrayal of spren has brought us here; they gave their surges for human hairs; but not to those who know them most well - before us" (written from memory). True Spren exist long enough for Dawnsingers to consider their actions as betrayal (and for Leshwi to consider her action as betrayal).

33 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Do the Spren not mention a betrayal before the Recreance, one of the Singers?

I don't understand.

[Argenti he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, "Because humans didn’t imagine those ones, silly". But True Spren were imagined by a human, they were created by Honor and Cultivation. Lesser spren might just spontaneously manifest when Dawnsingers thought about some aspect of nature, emotions or things.

 

all spren are splinters of H&C... 

I would say both lesser and truespen could have 4 genders back in the good old days.

[Treamayne]

16 minutes ago, Argenti said:

all spren are splinters of H&C... 

Nope. 

The Spren that were on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation arrived are not splinters of them. WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

Are Cognitive elements like spren and seons only present on physical planes on worlds where Shards have been [Splintered]?

Brandon Sanderson

No. But it does require <Cognitive *inaudible*>. Alternately the Shard would have to give up pieces of their power for that. But it doesn't have to be that they were [Splintered] by someone. Seons existed on, sorry, spren existed on Roshar before the Shattering of Adonalsium. Not as many.

 

[Argenti he/him]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Nope. 

The Spren that were on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation arrived are not splinters of them. WoB:

  Hide contents

Questioner

Are Cognitive elements like spren and seons only present on physical planes on worlds where Shards have been [Splintered]?

Brandon Sanderson

No. But it does require <Cognitive *inaudible*>. Alternately the Shard would have to give up pieces of their power for that. But it doesn't have to be that they were [Splintered] by someone. Seons existed on, sorry, spren existed on Roshar before the Shattering of Adonalsium. Not as many.

 

The investiture was re-assigned to them. Also, once they settled there it cycled through and most native investiture on roshar is Cultivation, Honor, or Odium. Some examples of Ado's investiture probably are still around.
 

Quote

Questioner

Is there a specific Shard that most of the spren come from?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the spren are going to be related to a combination of Honor and Cultivation, weighted certain directions for certain types of spren. But the spren are mostly both of them. 

Questioner

Are they considered Splinters?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you could call spren Splinters if you wanted to. They work in the same way as a Splinter, so yeah.

LTUE 2020 (Feb. 15, 2020)

Quote

Chaos

So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards... So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them?

Brandon Sanderson

So they were very-- They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren.

Footnote: Chaos is referencing this exchange.
Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

 

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, Argenti said:

The investiture was re-assigned to them. Also, once they settled there it cycled through and most native investiture on roshar is Cultivation, Honor, or Odium. Some examples of Ado's investiture probably are still around.

Right. The old ones are "of Cultivation and Honor (and Odium in some cases)" but they Spliners of Ado (re-assigned) rather than actual Splinters of Cultivation or Honor (such as the Radiant Spren). Subtle distinctions are still distinctions and I would not put it past Sanderson to have the be important. . . 

[The Sibling she/her]

On 6/21/2023 at 8:50 AM, stormform wert said:

lopen is, well lopen.

I love that this phrase can be used as an explanation of so many things. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

53 minutes ago, alder24 said:

A spear has gender, why not lesser spren? It's just not recognizable at all.

I don't think so. For lesser Spren, who don't really reproduce sexually, what's the need for a gender? True Spren are modeled after humans and Singers, so it'd make sense for them to have genders despite not needing to/being unable to reproduce sexually. The point being, even if they do have gender, if it serves no purpose and is unrecognizable, does it even exist?

53 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Syl was talking about "spren" as cognitive manifestation, like spear's one, not literal spren - some spren might have 4 genders, but things can too.

Well, a Spear is a weapon, and they tend to be personified as women a lot, so I could see a Spearspren having some concept of gender, just not the more animalistic Lesser Spren, since there are Spren for all sorts of things that don't generally get personified as people, let alone with gender.

53 minutes ago, alder24 said:

True spren existed before all of that. Long enough for Dawnsingers to befriend them. Song of Secrets: "the betrayal of spren has brought us here; they gave their surges for human hairs; but not to those who know them most well - before us" (written from memory). True Spren exist long enough for Dawnsingers to consider their actions as betrayal (and for Leshwi to consider her action as betrayal).

I don't understand.

I was mistaken, I just remembered Leshwi saying something about betrayal vaguely and thought that the Singers abandoned the Singers for Odium, but apparently, it was the Spren who betrayed the Singers.

[alder24]

19 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I don't think so. For lesser Spren, who don't really reproduce sexually, what's the need for a gender?

Since when does a spear reproduce sexually and therefore needs a gender?  

On 20.06.2023 at 11:00 PM, Treamayne said:

(Oathbringer Ch 7)

  Hide contents

“So … some of my spears have been women, then?” he asked.

“Female, at least,” Syl said. “Roughly half, as these things tend to go.” She flitted up into the air in front of him. “It’s your fault for personifying us, so no complaining. Of course, some of the old spren have four genders instead of two.”

“What? Why?”

She poked him in the nose. “Because humans didn’t imagine those ones, silly.”

 

 

32 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The point being, even if they do have gender, if it serves no purpose and is unrecognizable, does it even exist?

Yes. 

23 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Well, a Spear is a weapon, and they tend to be personified as women a lot, so I could see a Spearspren having some concept of gender, just not the more animalistic Lesser Spren, since there are Spren for all sorts of things that don't generally get personified as people, let alone with gender.

Humans personify things a lot. Nature is a woman, oceans and seas too, boats are women, thunder in history was associated with male gods (like polytheistic religions have gods for so many different aspects of nature - there's your personification). On Roshar, they don't have invisible gods, they have visible spren, appearing in the proper environment or due to some emotions. I see no reason why people would personify all those very visible spren and associate genders to them.

And again, Syl calls spren not just spren, but also souls of things "everything has a spren".

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

 

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Humans personify things a lot. Nature is a woman, oceans and seas too, boats are women, thunder in history was associated with male gods (like polytheistic religions have gods for so many different aspects of nature - there's your personification). On Roshar, they don't have invisible gods, they have visible spren, appearing in the proper environment or due to some emotions. I see no reason why people would personify all those very visible spren and associate genders to them.

Right, but i don't think we see any of that on-page. Could be the case, but we haven't observed it firsthand.

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

And again, Syl calls spren not just spren, but also souls of things "everything has a spren".

Maybe she was talking about Spren in the Shinto "Everything has a soul" way and not Spren (the Splinters) as we see them. She might just be referring to the Cognitive or Spiritual Aspect of objects. Maybe those have some sort of inherent identity of masculine or feminine.

[Argenti he/him]

17 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Right. The old ones are "of Cultivation and Honor (and Odium in some cases)" but they Spliners of Ado (re-assigned) rather than actual Splinters of Cultivation or Honor (such as the Radiant Spren). Subtle distinctions are still distinctions and I would not put it past Sanderson to have the be important. . . 

No... Imagine if Ado was a tree and you pick a small sliver of wood to represent the spren, cut that tree into 16 parts, and the sliver of wood remains the same, but to the casual observer, it's now a sliver of wood from Honor. If you were to do these steps out of order, it would remain the same. Besides, all spren are slivers of Ado because it's the power of Ado you're splitting off anyway.

[Treamayne]

37 minutes ago, Argenti said:

No...

I'm confused - you said "no" then restated what I was saying. . . 

17 hours ago, alder24 said:

And again, Syl calls spren not just spren, but also souls of things "everything has a spren".

Note WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

Speaking of the Stormfather, would the Nightwatcher and the giant water spren be on the same level of spren as the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

...The Nightwatcher, yes. Um... There are, I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also much-- a much bigger deal than something like one of the sapient spren, and that's what Cusicesh is.

Questioner

So the Nightwatcher is a spren you'd say?

Brandon Sanderson

The Nightwatcher-- I mean, they call the Nightwatcher a spren. Everyone in the books thinks the Nightwatcher is a spren. That's what they would call-- that's what they would call, if they knew what Honor was, they would call Honor a spren. A spren is Investiture that is alive.

Bystander

Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

So they would call Nightblood a spren. They would call-- That's the word for what all of these things are. They would probably've called Adonalsium a spren…

So, part of this conversation should cover the fact that we may be using the term "spren" differently than Syl would, which is still different than Kaladin would. Not to mention Brandon.

E. g. Is a spear's Cognitive aspect "bead" a spren? I think Syl would say "yes" - though Kaladin might not. And Sanderson used the term to mean "A spren is Investiture that is alive" so I am unsure if he would or not - probably would just call it a cognitive aspect.

[Argenti he/him]

12 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I'm confused - you said "no" then restated what I was saying. . . 

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

You said there is a distinction; I meant there wasn't.

[Treamayne]

7 minutes ago, Argenti said:

You said there is a distinction; I meant there wasn't.

If you meant there was no distinction, why descripe a distinctlion?

1 hour ago, Argenti said:

cut that tree into 16 parts, and the sliver of wood remains the same

The siver of wood is "the same" but the 16 parts are now different? My point, however, was that a splinter of Ado when "re-assigned" (because all Investiture was assigned to a Shard post-shattering) could have parts from mulltiple shards - whereas a splinter of Honor can only have investiture from Honor. That's the distinction.

[Argenti he/him]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

The siver of wood is "the same" but the 16 parts are now different? My point, however, was that a splinter of Ado when "re-assigned" (because all Investiture was assigned to a Shard post-shattering) could have parts from mulltiple shards - whereas a splinter of Honor can only have investiture from Honor. That's the distinction.

The whole reassigned thing covers all the investiture of a spren. A splinter of ado that was re-assigned would have all of it's investure re-assigned. 
First of sun
 

Spoiler

it's like Patji, who was once a being of it's own investure, who had some sort of connection to Autonomy. Once autonomy grew aware of him, much of that was replaced andhe is now an avatar of Autonomy. 

 

[alder24]

5 hours ago, Argenti said:

First of sun
 

  Hide contents

it's like Patji, who was once a being of it's own investure, who had some sort of connection to Autonomy. Once autonomy grew aware of him, much of that was replaced andhe is now an avatar of Autonomy. 

 

SotD:

Spoiler

I don't think that's the case. Patji was always of Autonomy's investiture, but one day Autonomy grew aware of them and tweak them turning them into her Avatar, WoB section bolded below:

Spoiler

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

 

 

[Argenti he/him]

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

SotD:

  Hide contents

I don't think that's the case. Patji was always of Autonomy's investiture, but one day Autonomy grew aware of them and tweak them turning them into her Avatar, WoB section bolded below:

  Hide contents

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

 

 

Yeah you're right, Coppermind misled me