+Oltux72 he/him Posted June 23, 2023 Report Share Posted June 23, 2023 Watching an episode of Shardcast I again stumbled upon "These children should not have existed" if I may paraphrase @Chaos . However, upon thinking this through I think this contains an unstated and unproven assumption: That all his children postdate his ascension. If not, the cat was already out of the bag. Unless he were willing to turn his own children into Mistwraiths, his bloodline will be out there. It would also mean that he'd forgo many of the advantages of dynastic marriage in his early days. We do not know how old he was when he ascended, but he was a member of a primitive tribe. Such people tend to marry and procreate early. Hence it seems to me that he had to find a way of dealing with his children and their children. Now if he is unwilling to turn them into Mistwraiths, turning them into spikes is not an option either. So what do they do? I think the most obvious solution would be exile. Sending them south would alter the control group and it would be harder than using the perpendicularity. So I can offer three theories: Somewhere out in the Cosmere descendants of Rashek are forming a group and they have feruchemists and ferrings among their ranks. Lutha or Luthad was Rashek's wife (Roshar) Spoiler Sixteen is a Ferring and a descendant of The Lord Ruler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 23, 2023 Report Share Posted June 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Oltux72 said: Watching an episode of Shardcast I again stumbled upon "These children should not have existed" if I may paraphrase @Chaos . However, upon thinking this through I think this contains an unstated and unproven assumption: That all his children postdate his ascension. If not, the cat was already out of the bag. Unless he were willing to turn his own children into Mistwraiths, his bloodline will be out there. It would also mean that he'd forgo many of the advantages of dynastic marriage in his early days. We do not know how old he was when he ascended, but he was a member of a primitive tribe. Such people tend to marry and procreate early. Hence it seems to me that he had to find a way of dealing with his children and their children. Now if he is unwilling to turn them into Mistwraiths, turning them into spikes is not an option either. So what do they do? I think the most obvious solution would be exile. Sending them south would alter the control group and it would be harder than using the perpendicularity. So I can offer three theories: Somewhere out in the Cosmere descendants of Rashek are forming a group and they have feruchemists and ferrings among their ranks. Lutha or Luthad was Rashek's wife (Roshar) Hide contents Sixteen is a Ferring and a descendant of The Lord Ruler I don't think that's the case. While most WoBs on this matter are dodgy, there are still some that directly contradict this idea, and even specify that some of his children were Mistborn who died 900 years ago, and also that his children had something to do with his idea to give up the Final Empire. This means that Rahsek had children as the Lord Ruler (which yes, for a person who was obsessed with keeping Allomancy separate from Feruchemy it doesn't make any sense). But his descendants aren't important, nor Cosmere-relevant, there is no secret group or something like that. Spoiler Questioner So did the Lord Ruler ever have children? Brandon Sanderson Did the Lord Ruler ever have children? Yes he did. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) Spoiler Chaos You have said the fandom puts too much emphasis on the Lord Ruler's children. Is that because the Lord Ruler suppressed his ability to pass on his abilities to them? Brandon Sanderson No. Chaos Brandon, that makes no sense. What? Now I'm even more upset. It's actually my fault, 'cause I keep telling people that the Lord Ruler's kids should be important, so you can blame me. Brandon Sanderson People can be important and not be cosmere-relevant. Chaos Yeah, but they'd be like super-powerful Mistborn! Brandon Sanderson Yes, who died nine hundred years ago! Chaos But he spent so much time getting Feruchemy away from Allomancy! Brandon Sanderson Yeah, that's true. Skyward San Francisco signing (Nov. 8, 2018) Spoiler Chaos Did the Lord Ruler's children have something to do with the Lord Ruler's plot to once "give up" in the Final Empire? Brandon Sanderson Yes. /r/books AMA 2015 (June 5, 2015) Spoiler Little Wilson Have we seen any of them [Rashek's children] in Era 2? Brandon Sanderson Any of the Lord Ruler's descendents? Little Wilson Yes. Brandon Sanderson Yes... Little Wilson Where? Brandon Sanderson It is not necessarily... Um... I'm not gonna answer that. Zas678 Is it-- Are they just descendants in the same way that, you know, after two thou-- after thirteen hundred years they're all descendants? Brandon Sanderson You will-- They're not all, but there's a lot of them, percentage-wise. So it's not like you're... Zas678 Specially just kind of... Brandon Sanderson You're looking for something that's not really there. I'll go ahead and tell you that. There are descendants of the Lord Ruler. But it's not like they have some secret coven or anything like that. At least-- Zas678 The Illuminati! Brandon Sanderson At least, you know, there are-- there are-- How should I say? It's not outside of reason that there are people who are descendants of the Lord Ruler who are part of a coven or something. But you know what I'm saying? Zas678 Yeah, it's not like... super secret magic power society. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, mhm. Zas678 There could be a group of people who are like, "We're so much better." Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argenti he/him Posted June 23, 2023 Report Share Posted June 23, 2023 I'm reading that as he's basically genghis kahn. Sure, he has descendants, but it's like half the world now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted June 23, 2023 Report Share Posted June 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Argenti said: I'm reading that as he's basically genghis kahn. Sure, he has descendants, but it's like half the world now. Same. He has lots descendants. Some of them statistically are likely to be in one or more of the various secret societies, and Era 2 is a society that loves to trace lineage back to major era1 figures, so there are probably some of them who put a lot of stock in the blood Connection. But there are probably just as many or more that are just random people and dont know or care if they are related to some old historical figure. For every person who loves knowing they are related to Abraham Lincoln or the guy who invented the razor blade, there are plenty who both dont know and dont care. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin he/him Posted June 23, 2023 Report Share Posted June 23, 2023 7 hours ago, alder24 said: I don't think that's the case. While most WoBs on this matter are dodgy, there are still some that directly contradict this idea, and even specify that some of his children were Mistborn who died 900 years ago, and also that his children had something to do with his idea to give up the Final Empire. This means that Rahsek had children as the Lord Ruler (which yes, for a person who was obsessed with keeping Allomancy separate from Feruchemy it doesn't make any sense). But his descendants aren't important, nor Cosmere-relevant, there is no secret group or something like that. Reveal hidden contents Questioner So did the Lord Ruler ever have children? Brandon Sanderson Did the Lord Ruler ever have children? Yes he did. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) Reveal hidden contents Chaos You have said the fandom puts too much emphasis on the Lord Ruler's children. Is that because the Lord Ruler suppressed his ability to pass on his abilities to them? Brandon Sanderson No. Chaos Brandon, that makes no sense. What? Now I'm even more upset. It's actually my fault, 'cause I keep telling people that the Lord Ruler's kids should be important, so you can blame me. Brandon Sanderson People can be important and not be cosmere-relevant. Chaos Yeah, but they'd be like super-powerful Mistborn! Brandon Sanderson Yes, who died nine hundred years ago! Chaos But he spent so much time getting Feruchemy away from Allomancy! Brandon Sanderson Yeah, that's true. Skyward San Francisco signing (Nov. 8, 2018) Reveal hidden contents Chaos Did the Lord Ruler's children have something to do with the Lord Ruler's plot to once "give up" in the Final Empire? Brandon Sanderson Yes. /r/books AMA 2015 (June 5, 2015) Reveal hidden contents Little Wilson Have we seen any of them [Rashek's children] in Era 2? Brandon Sanderson Any of the Lord Ruler's descendents? Little Wilson Yes. Brandon Sanderson Yes... Little Wilson Where? Brandon Sanderson It is not necessarily... Um... I'm not gonna answer that. Zas678 Is it-- Are they just descendants in the same way that, you know, after two thou-- after thirteen hundred years they're all descendants? Brandon Sanderson You will-- They're not all, but there's a lot of them, percentage-wise. So it's not like you're... Zas678 Specially just kind of... Brandon Sanderson You're looking for something that's not really there. I'll go ahead and tell you that. There are descendants of the Lord Ruler. But it's not like they have some secret coven or anything like that. At least-- Zas678 The Illuminati! Brandon Sanderson At least, you know, there are-- there are-- How should I say? It's not outside of reason that there are people who are descendants of the Lord Ruler who are part of a coven or something. But you know what I'm saying? Zas678 Yeah, it's not like... super secret magic power society. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, mhm. Zas678 There could be a group of people who are like, "We're so much better." Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016) Remember, he didn't initially realize that Feruchemy would re-emerge in the Terris bloodlines based on latent (dormant) potential. And after turning all living Feruchemists (at the time of his Ascension) into mistwraiths, except for Kwaan who he then hunted down and killed, there probably wouldn't be whatever usual detect-and-train methods available; the post-Ascension "zeroth generation" Feruchemists would have to kind of realize and figure out their abilities entirely on their own. As such, it would probably be around 25-30 years or more before Rashek became aware that Feruchemy was still around. Just enough time for him to have already married a putative Lutha and had some children, for example. The fact that we didn't see Ferrings or Twinborn arising from his bloodline (the first to "mix the genes for Feruchemy and Allomancy") going on 1000-ish years suggests Rashek took steps to stop things from going further. Eeek. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 23, 2023 Report Share Posted June 23, 2023 (edited) 43 minutes ago, robardin said: Remember, he didn't initially realize that Feruchemy would re-emerge in the Terris bloodlines based on latent (dormant) potential. And after turning all living Feruchemists (at the time of his Ascension) into mistwraiths, except for Kwaan who he then hunted down and killed, there probably wouldn't be whatever usual detect-and-train methods available; the post-Ascension "zeroth generation" Feruchemists would have to kind of realize and figure out their abilities entirely on their own. As such, it would probably be around 25-30 years or more before Rashek became aware that Feruchemy was still around. Just enough time for him to have already married a putative Lutha and had some children, for example. It doesn't matter, he was a Feruchemist and a Mistborn. He knew he had to turn all living Feruchemists into Mistwraiths, because he knew they pass this ability onto their children - the same would be in his case but worse. He could just pass those genes to his children and make a Fullborn almost equally as strong as he was, a Fullborn that could rival him. And he had known since the Ascension that he as a living Feruchemist would pass Feruchemy and Allomancy onto his kids. And by the WoB he didn't suppress his powers so they wouldn't be given to his children. This doesn't make any sense. The only way I can see it making sense is to tie his children into the idea of ending the Final Empire - if he gave up, he might make kids hoping to partition his empire and give parts of it to his kids, who he might or might not want them to be Fullborn. Not just end the Final Empire, but divide it. But he withdrew from this plan or it didn't work. Quote The fact that we didn't see Ferrings or Twinborn arising from his bloodline (the first to "mix the genes for Feruchemy and Allomancy") going on 1000-ish years suggests Rashek took steps to stop things from going further. Eeek. Actually Ferings did appear before the Catacendre, but they were very very rare. I wouldn't be surprised if his children became Twinborn or Ferrings because of Allomantic genes breaking down Feruchemy genes (but Rashek wouldn't know how hard it was for a Fullborn to be born naturally, otherwise he wouldn't turn all Feruchemists into Mistwraiths). Spoiler Chaos (paraphrased) Since the dawn of Scadrial, why was Feruchemy isolated in a single distinct population in the world, namely the Terrismen? Allomancy, while rare within the population of Scadrial, at least was not isolated to one population, it was spread evenly, it seems. What is special about the Terrismen that only they get the power of Feruchemy? Does it have something to do with the previous Ascensions before Rashek, with the guardian keeping the power for a time? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It's all in the spiritual DNA, which is passed on like normal DNA. However, they are a separate people. They've kept themselves isolated, similar to the Jews in our world. When I asked he said there have been some Feruchemical-mistings [Ferrings] in the past, but they are very rare. Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010) Spoiler Windrunner Is it is even possible for a full Feruchemist Mistborn to be naturally born, or will the genes for the two interfere with one another too much? Brandon Sanderson It is possible, but highly unlikely. /r/books AMA 2015 (June 6, 2015) Edited June 23, 2023 by alder24 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted June 23, 2023 Report Share Posted June 23, 2023 (edited) I see three possibilities: - TLR didn't intend to have kids, but wasn't willing to kill them (or the mother) either. - at the beginning TLR didn't actually worry about the risk of mixing Feruchemy and Allomancy; that's something that developed later in his reign. He got rid of the Feruchemists so he could obscure history & to remove an alternate source of religious authority that would claim he wasn't the real Hero of Ages, not to prevent the risk of mixing with Allomancy. - TLR didn't originally expect to be immortal; he didn't think of atium compounding day-one. So he originally intended to marry and found a dynasty like a regular king, and was getting old and preparing to turn it over to his heir, and then he realized he could be immortal by atium compounding. -- I do like the idea of his descendants ending up in the South, though. I just don't see how it can work. Edited June 23, 2023 by cometaryorbit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 24, 2023 Report Share Posted June 24, 2023 10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: - at the beginning TLR didn't actually worry about the risk of mixing Feruchemy and Allomancy; that's something that developed later in his reign. He got rid of the Feruchemists so he could obscure history & to remove an alternate source of religious authority that would claim he wasn't the real Hero of Ages, not to prevent the risk of mixing with Allomancy. That can't be the case. We know Rashek gained detailed understanding of Allomancy and Feruchemy while holding the power of the Well, we know he spoke directly to his friends mind and offered them immortality in exchange for their Feruchemy, a decision which they made for every Feruchemist alive - he knew they will be a threat to him, he turned every Feruchemist alive to prevent them from mixing with Allomancy. That's why it doesn't make sense why he as both Feruchemist and Mistborn would want to have kids without taking any steps to suppress his genetics. HoA ch 68: Quote When the Lord Ruler offered his plan to his Feruchemist friends—the plan to change them into mistwraiths—he was making them speak on behalf of all the land's Feruchemists. Though he changed his friends into kandra to restore their minds and memories, the rest he left as nonsentient mistwraiths. These bred more of their kind, living and dying, becoming a race unto themselves. From these children of the original mistwraiths, he made the next generations of kandra. However, even gods can make mistakes, I have learned. Rashek, the Lord Ruler, thought to transform all of the living Feruchemists into mistwraiths. However, he did not think of the genetic heritage left in the other Terris people, whom he left alive. So it was that Feruchemists continued being born, if only rarely. 10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: - TLR didn't originally expect to be immortal; he didn't think of atium compounding day-one. So he originally intended to marry and found a dynasty like a regular king, and was getting old and preparing to turn it over to his heir, and then he realized he could be immortal by atium compounding. That's also unlikely. He gained the understanding of both Feruchemy and Allomancy by holding the power of the Well. He knew that combining those powers will allow one to compound, that's why he turned all Feruchemist into mistwraiths, because he planned to use compounding to stay alive - he knew what Atium would do for him. HoA ch 9: Quote Allomancy was, indeed, born with the mists. Or, at least, Allomancy began at the same time as the mists' first appearances. When Rashek took the power at the Well of Ascension, he became aware of certain things. Some were whispered to him by Ruin; others were granted to him as an instinctive part of the power. One of these was an understanding of the Three Metallic Arts. He knew, for instance, that the nuggets of metal in the Chamber of Ascension would make those who ingested them into Mistborn. These were, after all, fractions of the very power in the Well itself. 10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: I do like the idea of his descendants ending up in the South, though. I just don't see how it can work. Yes, that can't work, because Malwish would have strong Allomantic and Feruchemical genes, resulting in having almost as many Metalborn as in the North. That isn't the case, Metalborn there are very rare. They only have the seed of metallic arts in them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted June 24, 2023 Report Share Posted June 24, 2023 31 minutes ago, alder24 said: That's why it doesn't make sense why he as both Feruchemist and Mistborn would want to have kids without taking any steps to suppress his genetics. Well, it's possible that any children he had were early in the days of the Final Empire. He thought Feruchemy gone after his first trip to the well, ane he didn;t really start his pogrom against the Terris until the third century of rule - it may be that when he had kids he realized they were breeding true. If he didn't tell them about compounding, they would have lived a normal lifespan - which explains Sanderson's WoB about them being born long ago and no children alive in the "present" FInal Empire (book 1). Fridge Horror: Spoiler His own children might have even been born simply to supply the first Feruchemy spikes for the early Inquisitors - or once he realized they bred true he used them as such. If Inquisitors were developed shortly after the first trip to the Well (implied by his "three hemalurgic creations" all being devised by the knowledge gains while Ascended) he might have thought since he was the "last Feruchemist" then only his children could supply the spikes needed to give his Inquisitors F-Gold. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 24, 2023 Report Share Posted June 24, 2023 1 hour ago, Treamayne said: Well, it's possible that any children he had were early in the days of the Final Empire. He thought Feruchemy gone after his first trip to the well, ane he didn;t really start his pogrom against the Terris until the third century of rule - it may be that when he had kids he realized they were breeding true. Again, that can't be the case. He knew that living Feruchemist can pass his Feruchemy onto his children - that's why he turned them all into Mistwraiths. He knew from the power of the Well that Allomancy is genetic too. And he was both a living Feruchemist and a Mistborn, both of which he could pass onto his kids, possibly creating another Fullborn among his childrens. It's not about hidden genes about all Terris population, it's about him being both Feruchemist and Mistborn, which can directly make another Fullborn. That's why it doesn't make sense. It doesn't matter if he tought Feruchamy was eradicated, because it was him who was the father, it was him that passed his Feruchemy and Allomancy onto his children. 2 hours ago, Treamayne said: Fridge Horror: Hide contents His own children might have even been born simply to supply the first Feruchemy spikes for the early Inquisitors - or once he realized they bred true he used them as such. If Inquisitors were developed shortly after the first trip to the Well (implied by his "three hemalurgic creations" all being devised by the knowledge gains while Ascended) he might have thought since he was the "last Feruchemist" then only his children could supply the spikes needed to give his Inquisitors F-Gold. Well, that's maybe a little too much? He was able to make Kandra with spikes using the power of Well, so he for sure was able to create both Inquisitors and Koloss with spikes as well (16 Inquisitors I think). Inquisitors would likely live for around 100 years, and their spikes with Allomancy would possibly be reused, because that Allomancy was so strong at that time, and even after some decay, powers would still be strong (making new spikes would be troublesome, because all Allomancers were nobles at that time). F-gold spikes would likely be reused too, untill Rashek realised Feruchemy prevailed. He was a terrible person, but using his kids as a spike factory for his inquisitors isn't something I would accuss him of doing. But who knows. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted June 24, 2023 Report Share Posted June 24, 2023 18 minutes ago, alder24 said: Again, that can't be the case. You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means. . . 18 minutes ago, alder24 said: He knew that living Feruchemist can pass his Feruchemy onto his children - that's why he turned them all into Mistwraiths. He knew from the power of the Well that Allomancy is genetic too. And he was both a living Feruchemist and a Mistborn, both of which he could pass onto his kids, possibly creating another Fullborn among his childrens. Exactly, He "knew" that he was the last feruchemist, so given any number of children - if one displays both sets of abilities he would simply remove the threat. Just because a child could have both Allomancy and Feruchemy, does not mean that every child he may have would have both Alomancy and Feruchemy. Sanderson has already said he definitely had children in the past. It's not hard to understand that: Rashek has kids. Tests for metallic arts. If none - disowned, go join the other normal nobels (or maybe just not claimed if they were conceived in secret) If only Allomancy or Feruchemy - maybe claimed, maybe given important ministry post or other gov't position (expansion before the periphery was conquired or leading remote Dominance) If both Allomancy and Feruchemy - new Spikes walking (or just remove the threat before they can understand the "secret") Many Sharders keep argueing that a Fullborn child would be a threat - btu they are only a threat if they live long enough to learn how to compound. A child or teen that has not yet learned how to use their Metallic Arts on thier own - much less how they interact with each other - is hardly a threat. Quote It's not about hidden genes about all Terris population, it's about him being both Feruchemist and Mistborn, which can directly make another Fullborn. I never said anything about hidden genes. . . ? Quote He was able to make Kandra with spikes using the power of Well Source? Cause HoA Ch 68 implies that the conversion to Mistwraith was during the ascension, but granting spikes and returning their bones to the First Generation was in the days after the Ascension: Spoiler “Human bones?” Sazed asked as the elderly creatures made their way forward, walking with canes. “Our own bones,” one of them said, speaking with a tired near-whisper of a voice. “We hadn’t the skill or knowledge to form True Bodies when this all began, and so took our original bones again when the Lord Ruler gave them to us.” Quote he for sure was able to create both Inquisitors and Koloss with spikes as well I think we just fundamentally disagree on the interpretation of the Epilogues: HoA Ch 44 Spoiler Without the instinctive knowledge granted by taking the power at the Well of Ascension, Rashek would never have been able to use Hemalurgy. With his mind expanded, and with a little practice, he was able to intuit where to place spikes that would create the servants he wanted. It is a little-known fact that the Inquisitors’ torture chambers were actually Hemalurgic laboratories. The Lord Ruler was constantly trying to develop new breeds of servant. It is a testament to Hemalurgy’s complexity that, despite a thousand years of trying, he never managed to create anything with it beyond the three kinds of creatures he developed during those few brief moments holding the power. The Wording "knowledge" and "developed" always made me think he "learned" how to create his hemalurgic constructs while holding the power - but he had to make the spikes and actually spike people in the time after the Ascension (likely using his enemies as the hemalurgic victims). Otherwise, the epigraph would say he "created" the Koloss and inquisitors - not developed. We only know for sure that he changed the Feruchemists while holding the power - not that he created any Hemalurgic Spikes while holding the power. In fact, I doubt he could have created a "spike of Ruin" with "Preservation's" power at all. It is fundamentally required that a Hemalurgic spike has stolen it's charge from another being (or it is not "Hemalurgy"). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 24, 2023 Report Share Posted June 24, 2023 7 minutes ago, Treamayne said: You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means. . . I want to say what you wrote isn't true. 12 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Exactly, He "knew" that he was the last feruchemist, so given any number of children - if one displays both sets of abilities he would simply remove the threat. Just because a child could have both Allomancy and Feruchemy, does not mean that every child he may have would have both Alomancy and Feruchemy. Sanderson has already said he definitely had children in the past. It's not hard to understand that: Rashek has kids. Tests for metallic arts. If none - disowned, go join the other normal nobels (or maybe just not claimed if they were conceived in secret) If only Allomancy or Feruchemy - maybe claimed, maybe given important ministry post or other gov't position (expansion before the periphery was conquired or leading remote Dominance) If both Allomancy and Feruchemy - new Spikes walking (or just remove the threat before they can understand the "secret") Many Sharders keep argueing that a Fullborn child would be a threat - btu they are only a threat if they live long enough to learn how to compound. A child or teen that has not yet learned how to use their Metallic Arts on thier own - much less how they interact with each other - is hardly a threat. Yes, it can work if Rashek would use his kids as a spike factory, which I don't think he would do. If he didn't kill his friends but instead turned them into Kandra, TenSoon said "You call the Father a monster, but he was not an evil man". I don't think he would kill his kids (what would Lutha, his alleged wife, say?), even if they could pose a threat to him in the future. 18 minutes ago, Treamayne said: I never said anything about hidden genes. . . ? No, but you said: Quote He thought Feruchemy gone after his first trip to the well, ane he didn;t really start his pogrom against the Terris until the third century of rule - it may be that when he had kids he realized they were breeding true which doesn't matter as I explained. It only matters that he would pass Feruchemy and Allomancy onto his kids. 32 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Source? Cause HoA Ch 68 implies that the conversion to Mistwraith was during the ascension, but granting spikes and returning their bones to the First Generation was in the days after the Ascension: I think we just fundamentally disagree on the interpretation of the Epilogues: HoA Ch 44 Hide contents Without the instinctive knowledge granted by taking the power at the Well of Ascension, Rashek would never have been able to use Hemalurgy. With his mind expanded, and with a little practice, he was able to intuit where to place spikes that would create the servants he wanted. It is a little-known fact that the Inquisitors’ torture chambers were actually Hemalurgic laboratories. The Lord Ruler was constantly trying to develop new breeds of servant. It is a testament to Hemalurgy’s complexity that, despite a thousand years of trying, he never managed to create anything with it beyond the three kinds of creatures he developed during those few brief moments holding the power. The Wording "knowledge" and "developed" always made me think he "learned" how to create his hemalurgic constructs while holding the power - but he had to make the spikes and actually spike people in the time after the Ascension (likely using his enemies as the hemalurgic victims). Otherwise, the epigraph would say he "created" the Koloss and inquisitors - not developed. We only know for sure that he changed the Feruchemists while holding the power - not that he created any Hemalurgic Spikes while holding the power. HoA ch 68: Quote When the Lord Ruler offered his plan to his Feruchemist friends—the plan to change them into mistwraiths—he was making them speak on behalf of all the land's Feruchemists. Though he changed his friends into kandra to restore their minds and memories, the rest he left as nonsentient mistwraiths. He didn't just learn how to do it, he created them directly: Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Chapter Forty-Four - Part One Subtlety with the Power The Lord Ruler created koloss, kandra, and Inquisitors during his time holding the power. This took some practice and experimentation, however. As has been explained, holding the power granted some intuitive understanding of how to use it. For instance, he knew how to make Hemalurgic creatures—but he wasn't practiced enough with the specifics at first to know exactly what he wanted to make or what the results of his experimentations would be. In a similar way, he knew that he could move a planet—and did. With practice, he could have figured out how to shove the planet the right way to place it correctly in orbit. Unfortunately, you can't really experiment with moving a planet around without causing a whole lot of damage. And so, he could do something as subtle as create three new races—and, with that practice in biology, redesign the world's plants and animals slightly—but could be so far off in the way he shoved the planet about the first time. The Hero of Ages Annotations (Dec. 4, 2009) 33 minutes ago, Treamayne said: In fact, I doubt he could have created a "spike of Ruin" with "Preservation's" power at all. It is fundamentally required that a Hemalurgic spike has stolen it's charge from another being (or it is not "Hemalurgy"). Preservation can power and mimic Hemalurgy: Spoiler Czanos Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts? Brandon Sanderson Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) While Rashek couldn't kill with Preservation's power (he tried to kill Kwaan), he should be able to create spikes with raw Preservation's investiture in them, taking a shape of specific hemalurgic charge, which is something that Set partially did in TLM using Preservation's fragment, and what Moonlight suggested can be done with Dor instead of people. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted June 24, 2023 Report Share Posted June 24, 2023 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Again, that can't be the case. Quote I want to say what you wrote isn't true. My point (by way of Movie Quote) was that "can't" has a specific meaning that does not apply in this context. Raskek absolutely could have a fullborn child and spike it. Just because you don't think he would does not mean that he physically can't. 27 minutes ago, alder24 said: No, but you said: Quote He thought Feruchemy gone after his first trip to the well, ane he didn;t really start his pogrom against the Terris until the third century of rule - it may be that when he had kids he realized they were breeding true which doesn't matter as I explained. It only matters that he would pass Feruchemy and Allomancy onto his kids. I can see how you would confuse that for "hidden gentics" when my point was more like: "conquering the world is a busy business - if he considered the matter closed after creating mistwriaths and Kandra he may not have even thought about it until a few hundred years later when. . . oops" 27 minutes ago, alder24 said: He didn't just learn how to do it, he created them directly: Hide contents Brandon Sanderson Chapter Forty-Four - Part One Subtlety with the Power The Lord Ruler created koloss, kandra, and Inquisitors during his time holding the power. This took some practice and experimentation, however. As has been explained, holding the power granted some intuitive understanding of how to use it. For instance, he knew how to make Hemalurgic creatures—but he wasn't practiced enough with the specifics at first to know exactly what he wanted to make or what the results of his experimentations would be. In a similar way, he knew that he could move a planet—and did. With practice, he could have figured out how to shove the planet the right way to place it correctly in orbit. Unfortunately, you can't really experiment with moving a planet around without causing a whole lot of damage. And so, he could do something as subtle as create three new races—and, with that practice in biology, redesign the world's plants and animals slightly—but could be so far off in the way he shoved the planet about the first time. The Hero of Ages Annotations (Dec. 4, 2009) Thanks. Although I'll note that the quote is from the annotations - and distinctly says "three new races" (not four - which is should be - Koloss, Mistwriath, Kandra, Inquisitor) and so the whole thing needs confirmation since so many of the eraly annotations have been "tweaked" when made canon. 27 minutes ago, alder24 said: Preservation can power and mimic Hemalurgy: Hide contents Czanos Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts? Brandon Sanderson Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) While Rashek couldn't kill with Preservation's power (he tried to kill Kwaan), he should be able to create spikes with raw Preservation's investiture in them, taking a shape of specific hemalurgic charge, which is something that Set partially did in TLM using Preservation's fragment, and what Moonlight suggested can be done with Dor instead of people. That seems. . . odd. But okay. Thank you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 24, 2023 Report Share Posted June 24, 2023 5 hours ago, Treamayne said: My point (by way of Movie Quote) was that "can't" has a specific meaning that does not apply in this context. Raskek absolutely could have a fullborn child and spike it. Just because you don't think he would does not mean that he physically can't. That is possible but unlikely, so I agreed to it. This is "would". "Can't" was about different situations which I argued were impossible to be true, because of quotes, WoBs and logic I presented. I wanted to emphasize that this is impossible 5 hours ago, Treamayne said: I can see how you would confuse that for "hidden gentics" when my point was more like: "conquering the world is a busy business - if he considered the matter closed after creating mistwriaths and Kandra he may not have even thought about it until a few hundred years later when. . . oops" Which I think would be impossible, because he knew he could make Fullborn kids. And he can't forget, compounding copper. 5 hours ago, Treamayne said: Thanks. Although I'll note that the quote is from the annotations - and distinctly says "three new races" (not four - which is should be - Koloss, Mistwriath, Kandra, Inquisitor) and so the whole thing needs confirmation since so many of the eraly annotations have been "tweaked" when made canon. Mistwraith and Kandra are kind of the same race. It was said several times in books that Kandra are adult Mistwraith. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted June 24, 2023 Report Share Posted June 24, 2023 20 minutes ago, alder24 said: Which I think would be impossible, because he knew he could make Fullborn kids. And he can't forget, compounding copper. We do not know how compounding copper works Copperminds are all about "forgetting" - until you access it again (and we don't know that compounding changes that) I think you are confusing memory with knowledge I didn't say forget - I said "not thinking about it" You are still trying to state opinion as fact. There is nothing about my scenario that is "impossible". Improbable, yes. unlikely, yes. Impossible - no. I'm not even sure that I beleive that scenario - I'm just trying to come up with ideas that do match the known facts: He had kids. They are not alive during TFE, His genetic line continues to exist in Era 2 (but not in a meaningful way - so likely centuries more dispersal than even Spook's genetic line which is still barely relevant in AoL). 20 minutes ago, alder24 said: Mistwraith and Kandra are kind of the same race. It was said several times in books that Kandra are adult Mistwraith We know that they are culturally considered the same race, at least by some people in Era 1. However, one is an artifical race that was created to breed true and is as self-sufficient as any animal on Scarial. The other is a Hemalurgc creation "descended" from Mistwraiths to does not breed true, cannot create more of themselves at all and has almost nothing in common with the original species. Sounds kinda like Marsh. . . Therefore I conclude: If an Inquisitor is a "different race" from humans, then a Kandra must be a different race from Mistwraiths. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 24, 2023 Report Share Posted June 24, 2023 4 minutes ago, Treamayne said: We do not know how compounding copper works Copperminds are all about "forgetting" - until you access it again (and we don't know that compounding changes that) Yes, we don't know, but Rashek was said to always remember every face in the blink of an eye - he recognized Kelsier immediately. No matter how it works, he wouldn’t be able to forget in such a way. I highly doubt he would store this important, Well gained, information in coppermind if he would forget it. 6 minutes ago, Treamayne said: I think you are confusing memory with knowledge Both are storable in copper - knowledge is dependent on and influenced by memory. 10 minutes ago, Treamayne said: I didn't say forget - I said "not thinking about it" Ok, possible then, but I don't think it is that likely he would "not think about it" when flirting with a woman. It's too essential for him to do such a thing. 11 minutes ago, Treamayne said: You are still trying to state opinion as fact. There is nothing about my scenario that is "impossible". Improbable, yes. unlikely, yes. Impossible - no. No, I'm not (about your spiking kids idea): 8 hours ago, alder24 said: He was a terrible person, but using his kids as a spike factory for his inquisitors isn't something I would accuss him of doing. But who knows. 7 hours ago, alder24 said: Yes, it can work if Rashek would use his kids as a spike factory, which I don't think he would do. 47 minutes ago, alder24 said: That is possible but unlikely 12 minutes ago, Treamayne said: We know that they are culturally considered the same race, at least by some people in Era 1. However, one is an artifical race that was created to breed true and is as self-sufficient as any animal on Scarial. The other is a Hemalurgc creation "descended" from Mistwraiths to does not breed true, cannot create more of themselves at all and has almost nothing in common with the original species. Sounds kinda like Marsh. . . Therefore I conclude: If an Inquisitor is a "different race" from humans, then a Kandra must be a different race from Mistwraiths. Yes, if you look at it in that way, that's true. But I don't think that's contradicting the WoB, not the most important part for us ("The Lord Ruler created koloss, kandra, and Inquisitors during his time holding the power."). But on the other hand Mistwraiths are people (kandra) with mental blockage in them, Blessings remove that blockage allowing them to access their full sentience. It would be like classifying a mentally ill, but curable, person as a different species. By this logic I think Kandra and Mistwraiths are the same species. Spoiler NinjaMeTimbers How intelligent is a mistwraith? Could you raise and train mistwraiths like dogs or horses, controlling what forms they take by the bones you give them? Would you be able to train yourself a horsewraith steed by giving it only the bones of a horse? Brandon Sanderson This is feasible. One thing to keep in mind is that mistwraiths are people who have a blockage between the Physical and the Cognitive Realm, messing with their ability to think. Think of them as mentally-stunted people. There's enough there to train, but then you have to dig into the ethics of it... 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted June 24, 2023 Report Share Posted June 24, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, alder24 said: Yes, if you look at it in that way, that's true. But I don't think that's contradicting the WoB, not the most important part for us ("The Lord Ruler created koloss, kandra, and Inquisitors during his time holding the power."). Sorry - my point wasn't "this Annotation/WoB" is wrong. My point was: This annotation was written in 2006 - and parts of "the full story" were incomplete - other parts of "the full story" were purposely unstated in the early annotations. To base an entire theory on an old annotation with no other supporting information seems suspect. Edited June 24, 2023 by Treamayne 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 24, 2023 Report Share Posted June 24, 2023 1 minute ago, Treamayne said: Sorry - my point wasn't "this Annotation/WoB" is wrong. My point was" "This annotation was written in 2006 - and parts of "the full story" were incomplete - other parts of "the full story" were purposely unstated in the early annotations. To base an entire theory on an old annotation with no other supporting information seems suspect. I did also provide one quote from HoA! Not a theory, just a point. I think there are more WoBs or quotes, but I just didn't have time to find them back then (and now too, it's midnight here). That was a fun and engaging discussion. And horrifying idea of yours. This is worse than turning Miles into a spike factory. Way worse. If someone were to do it it would be Straff Rashek. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted June 25, 2023 Report Share Posted June 25, 2023 (edited) On 6/24/2023 at 5:12 AM, alder24 said: That can't be the case. We know Rashek gained detailed understanding of Allomancy and Feruchemy while holding the power of the Well, we know he spoke directly to his friends mind and offered them immortality in exchange for their Feruchemy, a decision which they made for every Feruchemist alive - he knew they will be a threat to him, he turned every Feruchemist alive to prevent them from mixing with Allomancy. I don't think this is correct. He got rid of Feruchemists to control information: HoA CH 65 epigraph (relevant bits, because it's a long one) Quote He saw the power of Feruchemy, and rightly feared it. Many of the Terris people, he knew, would reject him as the Hero, for he didn't fulfill their prophecies well. They'd see him as a usurper who killed the Hero they sent. Which, in truth, he was. and Quote However, I think he was wise to choose as he did. Feruchemists, by the nature of their powers, have a tendency toward scholarship. With their incredible memories, they would have been very difficult to control over the centuries. Indeed, they were difficult to control, even when he suppressed them. Sounds like the purpose was to obscure the truth about the Hero of Ages and the past generally (and to remove the Terris Feruchemists as a source of religious authority), nothing about Feruchemy mixing with Allomancy. On 6/24/2023 at 5:12 AM, alder24 said: Yes, that can't work, because Malwish would have strong Allomantic and Feruchemical genes, resulting in having almost as many Metalborn as in the North. That isn't the case, Metalborn there are very rare. They only have the seed of metallic arts in them. Actually, my primary concern there was that (after the Well was used up) he couldn't get them there alive. Rashek himself could probably have crossed the blazing deserts by dumping heat into F-Brass, and either using Gold Compounding to heal the damage from thirst and starvation or using Steel Compounding to get there within the amount of water he could carry (using A-Pewter and/or compounded F-Pewter strength to carry more gold, if necessary), F-Steel speed, and so on... but he didn't have a way to protect anyone else. Feruchemy and Allomancy genes interfere, so the effect on a population a thousand years on might be much less than introducing pure Lerasium Mistborn. Edited June 26, 2023 by cometaryorbit confusing typo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 26, 2023 Report Share Posted June 26, 2023 15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: I don't think this is correct. He got rid of Feruchemists to control information: HoA CH 65 epigraph (relevant bits, because it's a long one) Quote He saw the power of Feruchemy, and rightly feared it. Many of the Terris people, he knew, would reject him as the Hero, for he didn't fulfill their prophecies well. They'd see him as a usurper who killed the Hero they sent. Which, in truth, he was. and Quote However, I think he was wise to choose as he did. Feruchemists, by the nature of their powers, have a tendency toward scholarship. With their incredible memories, they would have been very difficult to control over the centuries. Indeed, they were difficult to control, even when he suppressed them. Sounds like the purpose was to obscure the truth about the Hero of Ages and the past generally (and to remove the Terris Feruchemists as a source of religious authority), nothing about Feruchemy mixing with Allomancy. It was said in books. I think it's fair to assume that there are multiple reasons why Rashek turned Feruchemist. One is to prevent Fullborn from getting born, another is to control information. It was said in TFE epilogue, epigraphs which were already quoted above, and HoA ch 62: Quote No, Sazed thought with wonder. No . . . that couldn't be! "He couldn't have made those packmen into nobles." "Why ever not?" Breeze asked. "Because the nobility gained Allomancy," Sazed said, standing. "Rashek's friends were Feruchemists. If he'd made them into noblemen, then . . ." "Then they could have challenged him," TenSoon said. "They could have become both Allomancers and Feruchemists as he was, and had his same powers." "Yes," Sazed said. "He spent ten centuries trying to breed Feruchemy out of the Terris population—all in fear that someday someone would be born with both Feruchemy and Allomancy! His friends who went to the Well with him would have been dangerous, since they were obviously powerful Feruchemists, and they knew what Rashek had done to Alendi. Rashek would have had to do something else with them. Something to sequester them, perhaps even kill them. . . ." "No," TenSoon said. "He didn't kill them. You call the Father a monster, but he was not an evil man. He didn't kill his friends, though he did recognize the threat their powers posed to him. So, he offered them a bargain, speaking directly to their minds while he was holding the power of creation." 15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Actually, my primary concern there was that (after the Well was used up) he couldn't get them there alive. Rashek himself could probably have crossed the blazing deserts by dumping heat into F-Brass, and either using Gold Compounding to heal the damage from thirst and starvation or using Steel Compounding to get there within the amount of water he could carry (using A-Pewter and/or compounded F-Pewter strength to carry more gold, if necessary), F-Steel speed, and so on... but he didn't have a way to protect anyone else. If his children were Feruchemist, they could travel south themselfs. 15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Feruchemy and Allomancy genes interfere, so the effect on a population a thousand years on might be much less than introducing pure Lerasium Mistborn. I think the effects would be very similar to pure Lerasium - after all that's how strong his kids would be, the genes would be the same. If only 9 Mistborn were to travel to the Southern pole, Malwish would have as many Mistborn as in the north, and possibly much more Feruchemist (because no suppression program would breed Feruchemy out of them). Even a single kid of Rashek would still considerably increase the amount of Metalborn in that region - which isn't true. Allik said before Kelsier arrived, Malwish didn't have any Metalborn among them (BoM ch 21). That's why Rashek's kids couldn't go south. Spoiler Questioner Who is the Lord Ruler’s child/children? Brandon Sanderson People are searching a little too hard for this, he had several, they mixed with the population. There might be specific individuals who claim heirship and things like that but it’s not like there’s one hidden person among the population, does that make sense? Even those who claim heirship may not have any more blood than a lot of other people. I think this is one where fans have latched onto it a little too strongly and I need to let them know they can back off, there’s not a big secret for them to be hunting. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isilel Posted June 27, 2023 Report Share Posted June 27, 2023 I am not sure that the characters' speculations should be taken as absolute truth. Besides, if TLR didn't intend to live forever in the beginning, he may have wanted a Fullborn heir. He wouldn't have been the first leader who wanted his heir(s) to inherit power that he intended to keep away from everybody else. Perhaps it was his very inability to produce such a heir, among other things, that convinced him to stay on for the duration. It is entirely possible that because of the conflict between Allomancy and Feruchemy genes his immediate offspring didn't exhibit any powers at all, either because they didn't have any or because they were, say, Metalborn of unknown metals. We also have no idea how Feruchemy first manifests and whever people who have it necessarily become aware of it without somebody explaining things to them. Maybe there were ferrings and Twinborn among TLR's descendants, who simply didn't know what they were. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashek's PR Manager she/her Posted July 2, 2023 Report Share Posted July 2, 2023 On 2023/6/27 at 6:38 PM, Isilel said: I am not sure that the characters' speculations should be taken as absolute truth. I concur. We don't have TLR's pov, so we, as well as Sazed/Harmony, only know what TLR had done, not his logic behind those actions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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