Theory on Yumi's return

[Firesong she/her]

Yumi's return at the end left me somewhat confused, and I think I have an idea of what actually happened. 

So, Yumi was basically just Investiture at that point, she died and was a Cognitive Shadow maintained by the Father Machine and the Shroud. It is the only way she could have survived that long without aging at all, I feel. She wasn't in a true time loop, after all, time was still passing normally. She just had her memory erased. So she was likely killed when the Father Machine went off, but her heavily Invested nature kept her as a Cognitive Shadow upon death. 

When both the Father Machine and the Shroud left, she no longer had something to keep her together, and dissipated. But her Investiture still held Connection and memories (they talk about Investiture containing memories several times in the book, and how it is how Cognitive Shadows don't forget everything), and thus, when Painter tried to bring her back with art, he didn't *truly* bring her back, but instead brought forth the still Connected Investiture and reformed it into a memory or facsimile of Yumi. This would fit with how the use of art brings forth bits of Investiture that have some Connection to the user, with Yumi able to summon the hijo so well due to her Connection to them (it talks about how heavily Invested she is by them, which would form a strong Connection; and how when the Connection between Painter and Yumi was forcibly cut, he lost his ability to summon the hijo), so to did Painter have a strong Connection to Yumi, and thus was able to summon her Investiture with art. She is also heavily Invested specifically by the type of Investiture that is attracted to creative acts.  

It also fits with the way the passage is written, where it talks about the Shroud vanishing as if it were some sort of time limit, that Painter was racing against the clock. While he dissipating Investiture was still close by for him to summon.  The very dense Investiture all around was also likely able to provide enough energy to form into the matter needed to give her a body, instead of just being a only partially-physically blob of Investiture like Spren. 

Essentially, she still *did* die, and this is essentially a copy. A Cognitive Shadow of a Cognitive Shadow, in a sense. Something allowed only by the very specific circumstances that they found themselves in. 

Addition: Other proof she was already a Cognitive Shadow beforehand, the way she died is not at all how souls are described as going into the Beyond. There wasn't any stretching to a distant point, it was more like she was dissolving, being taken apart at the seams. That isn't something that happens to normal souls. This is a very intentional choice, as it is very consistent with the few times we see the passage into the Beyond, Brandon wouldn't have forgotten, and also, Hoid is definitely the type to be very knowledgeable on this subject. Thus the incongruence acts as further evidence to the idea she became a Cognitive Shadow upon the activation of the Father Machine. This also exactly matches with the way we see the Torish people dissolve. (See page 461 to 462)

 

(accidently posted this in the wrong area first : P )

[Argenti he/him]

7 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Yumi's return at the end left me somewhat confused, and I think I have an idea of what actually happened. 

So, Yumi was basically just Investiture at that point, she died and was a Cognitive Shadow maintained by the Father Machine and the Shroud. It is the only way she could have survived that long without aging at all, I feel. She wasn't in a true time loop, after all, time was still passing normally. She just had her memory erased. So she was likely killed when the Father Machine went off, but her heavily Invested nature kept her as a Cognitive Shadow upon death. 

When both the Father Machine and the Shroud left, she no longer had something to keep her together, and dissipated. But her Investiture still held Connection and memories (they talk about Investiture containing memories several times in the book, and how it is how Cognitive Shadows don't forget everything), and thus, when Painter tried to bring her back with art, he didn't *truly* bring her back, but instead brought forth the still Connected Investiture and reformed it into a memory or facsimile of Yumi. This would fit with how the use of art brings forth bits of Investiture that have some Connection to the user, with Yumi able to summon the hijo so well due to her Connection to them (it talks about how heavily Invested she is by them, which would form a strong Connection; and how when the Connection between Painter and Yumi was forcibly cut, he lost his ability to summon the hijo), so to did Painter have a strong Connection to Yumi, and thus was able to summon her Investiture with art. She is also heavily Invested specifically by the type of Investiture that is attracted to creative acts.  

It also fits with the way the passage is written, where it talks about the Shroud vanishing as if it were some sort of time limit, that Painter was racing against the clock. While he dissipating Investiture was still close by for him to summon.  The very dense Investiture all around was also likely able to provide enough energy to form into the matter needed to give her a body, instead of just being a only partially-physically blob of Investiture like Spren. 

Essentially, she still *did* die, and this is essentially a copy. A Cognitive Shadow of a Cognitive Shadow, in a sense. Something allowed only by the very specific circumstances that they found themselves in. 

Addition: Other proof she was already a Cognitive Shadow beforehand, the way she died is not at all how souls are described as going into the Beyond. There wasn't any stretching to a distant point, it was more like she was dissolving, being taken apart at the seams. That isn't something that happens to normal souls. This is a very intentional choice, as it is very consistent with the few times we see the passage into the Beyond, Brandon wouldn't have forgotten, and also, Hoid is definitely the type to be very knowledgeable on this subject. Thus the incongruence acts as further evidence to the idea she became a Cognitive Shadow upon the activation of the Father Machine. This also exactly matches with the way we see the Torish people dissolve. (See page 461 to 462)

 

(accidently posted this in the wrong area first : P )

Yeah couldn't have said this better myself, Yumi was unraveled and he painted her back into the shape of Yumi; one thing is, We're not sure what it's like when a cognitive shadow dies or if they persist after death like a normal person. 

[Firesong she/her]

4 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Yeah couldn't have said this better myself, Yumi was unraveled and he painted her back into the shape of Yumi; one thing is, We're not sure what it's like when a cognitive shadow dies or if they persist after death like a normal person. 

Yeah, I know. I was just saying her death was very different from a normal soul, not "we know this is how Cognitive Shadows die"

[Argenti he/him]

Just now, Firesong said:

Yeah, I know. I was just saying her death was very different from a normal soul, not "we know this is how Cognitive Shadows die"

I know, this was mostly for other's benfits.

[Firesong she/her]

Just now, Argenti said:

I know, this was mostly for other's benfits.

Ah, my bad, my bad. 

[Argenti he/him]

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

Ah, my bad, my bad. 

also so I could give you more rep!

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

12 hours ago, Firesong said:

Yumi's return at the end left me somewhat confused, and I think I have an idea of what actually happened. 

So, Yumi was basically just Investiture at that point, she died and was a Cognitive Shadow maintained by the Father Machine and the Shroud. It is the only way she could have survived that long without aging at all, I feel. She wasn't in a true time loop, after all, time was still passing normally. She just had her memory erased. So she was likely killed when the Father Machine went off, but her heavily Invested nature kept her as a Cognitive Shadow upon death. 

When both the Father Machine and the Shroud left, she no longer had something to keep her together, and dissipated. But her Investiture still held Connection and memories (they talk about Investiture containing memories several times in the book, and how it is how Cognitive Shadows don't forget everything), and thus, when Painter tried to bring her back with art, he didn't *truly* bring her back, but instead brought forth the still Connected Investiture and reformed it into a memory or facsimile of Yumi. This would fit with how the use of art brings forth bits of Investiture that have some Connection to the user, with Yumi able to summon the hijo so well due to her Connection to them (it talks about how heavily Invested she is by them, which would form a strong Connection; and how when the Connection between Painter and Yumi was forcibly cut, he lost his ability to summon the hijo), so to did Painter have a strong Connection to Yumi, and thus was able to summon her Investiture with art. She is also heavily Invested specifically by the type of Investiture that is attracted to creative acts.  

It also fits with the way the passage is written, where it talks about the Shroud vanishing as if it were some sort of time limit, that Painter was racing against the clock. While he dissipating Investiture was still close by for him to summon.  The very dense Investiture all around was also likely able to provide enough energy to form into the matter needed to give her a body, instead of just being a only partially-physically blob of Investiture like Spren. 

Essentially, she still *did* die, and this is essentially a copy. A Cognitive Shadow of a Cognitive Shadow, in a sense. Something allowed only by the very specific circumstances that they found themselves in. 

Addition: Other proof she was already a Cognitive Shadow beforehand, the way she died is not at all how souls are described as going into the Beyond. There wasn't any stretching to a distant point, it was more like she was dissolving, being taken apart at the seams. That isn't something that happens to normal souls. This is a very intentional choice, as it is very consistent with the few times we see the passage into the Beyond, Brandon wouldn't have forgotten, and also, Hoid is definitely the type to be very knowledgeable on this subject. Thus the incongruence acts as further evidence to the idea she became a Cognitive Shadow upon the activation of the Father Machine. This also exactly matches with the way we see the Torish people dissolve. (See page 461 to 462)

 

(accidently posted this in the wrong area first : P )

This is really well put. Was quite the book for getting answers (and more questions!) on the nature of Cognitive Shadows. Was really wicked seeing Nikaro draw Yumi back through both his Connection and her Identity he strengthened through the art. And then both of them crafting the raw Investiture of the shroud into a physical body? Very cool.

Only thing I will add is that I feel it's still a matter of perspective whether she technically *died*. I don't believe we know if a Cognitive Shadow is the original soul or a copy only (though correct me if I'm wrong on this).

It's kind of like how we don't know whether Kelsier or Vasher are the original soul subsumed with Investiture and stapled to a body, or a cognitive copy of that soul which has passed to the Beyond. 

[Cocoa he/him]

I agree with you on the technical mechanics of everything, but I don't agree with your end conclusion that we're looking at a facsimile/that she didn't truly come back. It's the Theseus' Ship/Star Trek transporter issue. If you take a person all the way apart and then put the pieces back together, is it still them? And in the context of the Cosmere, I believe the answer is 'yes,' at least if you do it fast enough. A person's soul might be 'tangible' in the form of investiture, but there's also an intangible quality to their existence beyond that, I think. For example, we have this WOB regarding Phendorana's fate, and she was outright annihilated by anti-Stormlight:

Quote

nvita (paraphrased)

Was Phendorana’s soul obliterated?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said the soul of Phendorana wasn’t obliterated and it could’ve reached the Beyond he also added that nothing can be obliterated in the cosmere; things can be changed but not destroyed.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 15, 2022)

When you factor in that 'simple' dissolution is a lot less serious than that, then I think who we see at the end is in fact the 'real' Yumi, alive and well. If not the original flesh-and-blood one from seventeen hundred years ago, then at least the same one that we've been following throughout the novel.

Of course, we're in deep deep metaphysics at this point. Vasher, for one, would almost certainly agree with you that we're essentially looking at a double-fossilized soul that mistakenly believes herself to be the original.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Cocoa

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:44 AM, Cocoa said:

When you factor in that 'simple' dissolution is a lot less serious than that, then I think who we see at the end is in fact the 'real' Yumi, alive and well. If not the original flesh-and-blood one from seventeen hundred years ago, then at least the same one that we've been following throughout the novel.

Of course, we're in deep deep metaphysics at this point. Vasher, for one, would almost certainly agree with you that we're essentially looking at a double-fossilized soul that mistakenly believes herself to be the original.

On a meta/ narrative level, I agree with you 100% - Cognitive Shadows are the original souls sufficed with Investiture. I also feel like it's the real/ original Yumi too (happier ending woo! )

I was only pointing out that, in the cosmere, that opinion is a perspective. A philosophical divide rather than a physical one, and something that's never going to get a definitive answer (like the nature of the Beyond, or the Ship of Theseus, as you mentioned). 

[idanstark42 he/him]

This is a very interesting theory, but I have an issue with it. If she had no physical body, why did Painter look like her when in her "world". Design said that Painter's body took her shape because she had enough Investiture to bend it to her Identity, and they deduced that this is the reason that her body didn't change for him, he wasn't Invested enough.

You could say he took the place of her cognitive shadow, but that makes no sense because her cognitive shadow was there, invisible to anyone but him.

The way I see this whole event, is that she had a body, held together by Investiture similar to a Returned, as we've seen the five scholars survive for hundreds of years on Investiture alone, also Hoid said she died when the machine started to work, so I think she actually Returned, making her a type II invested entity.

When she died, she would have reached the beyond, but hey body disintegrated since after all this time, when she left it, it couldn't hold itself. Think about it, the only Returned we've seen did is Lightsong, and we didn't hear him stretching out, we didn't see really see his death, we just know that he died, and we see his body after (which of course didn't disintegrate because it was only a few years since he died, not seventeen hundreds).

After that, like any highly Invested entity, she remained in the Cognitive realm for a short while. This is the time limit. If he didn't convince her to come back, she would continue. He obviously used his Connection and his art to dresser her closer, but pulling her, the original Yumi, back to the physical world, and convincing her to stay.

Hoid said she was as real as anyone else, because she decided. This means that she had agency, she could decide. She could have chosen to continue, but she decided to stay, using her Investiture to put her Identity into the Shroud and crying herself a new body from it, the same way she made Painter's body fit her Identity.

In the end, it was her, the same Yumi he was connected to, Identity and all, that decided to return.

What do you think?

[Wandering Shade]

On 7/2/2023 at 5:15 PM, Firesong said:

Essentially, she still *did* die, and this is essentially a copy. A Cognitive Shadow of a Cognitive Shadow, in a sense. Something allowed only by the very specific circumstances that they found themselves in. 

I agreed with everything up until you said this lmao

I don't think Nikaro created a copy of Yumi out of the freefloating Investiture of the Shroud and his memory/Perception of Yumi. An Investiture Puppet, as I've heard it described elsewhere. I think that's a deeply cynical way of looking at things which is not supported by the text.

What Nikaro did was, I think, basically the same thing that Ishar did in his Spren experiments. Using his Connection to her and his Perception skills, he pulled her from the Cognitive to the Physical and there was enough freefloating nearby Investiture in the Shroud to make a body for her. The difference was that the bodies of the Spren pulled by Ishar had no functional biology, so they died seconds after entering the PR. But Yumi's body is human, so once its in the Physical Realm, it just works.

I don't think that he created a new Cognitive Shadow (Nikaro is not that Invested lmao), I think her Cognitive Shadow (which hadn't faded away yet, thus the timelimit) was pulled into the Physical Realm and given a body.

[Firesong she/her]

3 minutes ago, Wandering Shade said:

I agreed with everything up until you said this lmao

I don't think Nikaro created a copy of Yumi out of the freefloating Investiture of the Shroud and his memory/Perception of Yumi. An Investiture Puppet, as I've heard it described elsewhere. I think that's a deeply cynical way of looking at things which is not supported by the text.

What Nikaro did was, I think, basically the same thing that Ishar did in his Spren experiments. Using his Connection to her and his Perception skills, he pulled her from the Cognitive to the Physical and there was enough freefloating nearby Investiture in the Shroud to make a body for her. The difference was that the bodies of the Spren pulled by Ishar had no functional biology, so they died seconds after entering the PR. But Yumi's body is human, so once its in the Physical Realm, it just works.

I don't think that he created a new Cognitive Shadow (Nikaro is not that Invested lmao), I think her Cognitive Shadow (which hadn't faded away yet, thus the timelimit) was pulled into the Physical Realm and given a body.

How is it cynical at all? I am not saying she is a puppet, where did you get that idea? She is still definitely Yumi. I am actually kinda confused. 

I was saying that she dissolved, but her Investiture still had remaining Identity and Connection, and due to the nature of the Shroud, and his Connection to her, he was able to use his painting to call forth the Investiture that used to be her, and reformed it back into the same shape. I say she died as we had her dissolving away and losing awareness described to us and we saw it.

 And a Cognitive Shadow is essentially defined by that, Investiture taking the same shape as a soul in order to keep someone alive. 

That is how I made that interpretation.  

[Wandering Shade]

2 minutes ago, Firesong said:

How is it cynical at all? I am not saying she is a puppet, where did you get that idea? She is still definitely Yumi. I am actually kinda confused. 

I was saying that she dissolved, but her Investiture still had remaining Identity and Connection, and due to the nature of the Shroud, and his Connection to her, he was able to use his painting to call forth the Investiture that used to be her, and reformed it back into the same shape. I say she died as we had her dissolving away and losing awareness described to us and we saw it.

 And a Cognitive Shadow is essentially defined by that, Investiture taking the same shape as a soul in order to keep someone alive. 

That is how I made that interpretation.  

Goootcha gotcha. Sorry, I was projecting some opinions that I strongly disagree with that I heard elsewhere onto you. My apologies.

Then our biggest point of disagreement is that you think Yumi's Cognitive Shadow fully dissolved. I think her physical form dissolved and her Cognitive Shadow was beginning to get unraveled but that process never finished. The other Nightmares dissolved faster because they weren't nearly as Invested as she was, so it would take longer for her to fully unravel. Nikaro got to her first and the moment he started painting her that process was stopped and being reversed.

So, he didn't recreate her Cognitive Shadow, her Cognitive Shadow was never gone in the first place.

[Firesong she/her]

4 minutes ago, Wandering Shade said:

Goootcha gotcha. Sorry, I was projecting some opinions that I strongly disagree with that I heard elsewhere onto you. My apologies.

Then our biggest point of disagreement is that you think Yumi's Cognitive Shadow fully dissolved. I think her physical form dissolved and her Cognitive Shadow was beginning to get unraveled but that process never finished. The other Nightmares dissolved faster because they weren't nearly as Invested as she was, so it would take longer for her to fully unravel. Nikaro got to her first and the moment he started painting her that process was stopped and being reversed.

So, he didn't recreate her Cognitive Shadow, her Cognitive Shadow was never gone in the first place.

Fair, sometimes people misread things based on other things they heard. 

I can see how you would see it that way, either could be right. This feels like one of the things Brandon would actively refuse to answer, he likes avoiding giving a definitive answer to the nature of Cognitive Shadows in terms of "are they actually the person", and on the nature of souls and the Beyond and all of that. He doesn't want to ever answer a lot of those questions, so that characters in-world can have whatever interpretation they want on "is there an afterlife" and "are cognitive shadows copies or the actual person", and not be inherently wrong about it. 

[Wandering Shade]

16 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Fair, sometimes people misread things based on other things they heard. 

I can see how you would see it that way, either could be right. This feels like one of the things Brandon would actively refuse to answer, he likes avoiding giving a definitive answer to the nature of Cognitive Shadows in terms of "are they actually the person", and on the nature of souls and the Beyond and all of that. He doesn't want to ever answer a lot of those questions, so that characters in-world can have whatever interpretation they want on "is there an afterlife" and "are cognitive shadows copies or the actual person", and not be inherently wrong about it. 

Yeah, he might not give an answer if asked. Then again, if you try to leave out the idea of "is the Cognitive Shadow actually the person or not" and just ask "Did Yumi's Cognitive Shadow fully break down and Nikaro remade it from the leftover Investiture, or did he interrupt that process and the Yumi at the end of the book is the same Yumi Cognitive Shadow at the start?" then we might get an answer.

I suppose the answer sorta depends on your definition of a Cognitive Shadow dissolving/dying. Do you mean that the Investiture is no longer clumped together into a single form, or do you mean the Investiture fully lost the Shadow's Memory and Identity? If the first one is what defines a Cognitive Shadow's death, then it depends on the timeline of events, how fast Nikaro got there. If its the second, then according to your own explanation of what Nikaro did, Yumi's Cognitive Shadow never died at the end of the book.

[Firesong she/her]

8 minutes ago, Wandering Shade said:

Yeah, he might not give an answer if asked. Then again, if you try to leave out the idea of "is the Cognitive Shadow actually the person or not" and just ask "Did Yumi's Cognitive Shadow fully break down and Nikaro remade it from the leftover Investiture, or did he interrupt that process and the Yumi at the end of the book is the same Yumi Cognitive Shadow at the start?" then we might get an answer.

I suppose the answer sorta depends on your definition of a Cognitive Shadow dissolving/dying. Do you mean that the Investiture is no longer clumped together into a single form, or do you mean the Investiture fully lost the Shadow's Memory and Identity? If the first one is what defines a Cognitive Shadow's death, then it depends on the timeline of events, how fast Nikaro got there. If its the second, then according to your own explanation of what Nikaro did, Yumi's Cognitive Shadow never died at the end of the book.

I meant the former, I believe that it still had the Identity and Connection, and the memory inherent in Investiture (the Investiture in living things, to be specific) through both of those. 

I guess it is similar to how Star Trek teleporters technically kill you and then use the same matter to recreate a copy that is still you (well, depends on if you believe in souls, but that isn't the point). Just, instead of matter it is Investiture. 

[Leuthie]

The Shroud wasn't just Cognitive Shadow soup. It was everything soup. The Connections, memories, souls, AND the bodies of those killed by the Machine were all up there; everything but Identity. Now, the bodies weren't as cohesive as before they died; much like putting together a stone after grinding it into sand, you'd need forces to keep the pieces from falling apart. So when the Machine was no longer able to provide those forces, the bodies turned back into black smoke.

The difference between the Cognitive Shadows in this story and previous ones is that the bodies weren't separated from the souls. They were all destroyed at the same time and thrown into the Shroud. Heralds of Roshar get their bodies returned to them when they reincorporate on Roshar. So Yumi is a Herald. And ALL of Yumi was always there. Her innate Investiture was enough to hold herself together, part of the reason why the Machine was afraid of her. Not only could she destroy it, she didn't need it. She was the one that decided that she would die after destroying the Machine, so she did.

Reminder: Painter never used Investiture. Nightmare Painters used suggestion to change nightmares and funneled this suggestion through their painting. Nightmares have no Identity, so they're particularly susceptible to suggestion. I say that because I don't think Painter did anything different for Yumi. He used suggestion through his painting to convince the stuff that was Yumi to BE Yumi. Painter stepped in and reminded her that it was their world, their rules. She is both human and spirit. She could just BE. 

So she was. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Leuthie

[Nitpicking]

On 7/26/2023 at 7:28 PM, Leuthie said:

Reminder: Painter never used Investiture.

Yeah, manifesting a Shardpaintbrush while in the Cognitive Realm isn't using Investiture at all. /s

Painter spends the entire book being terribly, terribly underestimated. Including by himself. (That's one of the main themes of the book.)

This is the planet of Virtuosity! That is, the Shard of artistic excellence. Being a great painter there would inevitably mean being highly invested. (This, after all, is why Yumi is so highly invested--she's the greatest rock-stacker ever.)

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

36 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

Yeah, manifesting a Shardpaintbrush while in the Cognitive Realm isn't using Investiture at all. /s

Painter spends the entire book being terribly, terribly underestimated. Including by himself. (That's one of the main themes of the book.)

This is the planet of Virtuosity! That is, the Shard of artistic excellence. Being a great painter there would inevitably mean being highly invested. (This, after all, is why Yumi is so highly invested--she's the greatest rock-stacker ever.)

That's not right. I explained the Shardpaintbrush thing on a different thread already. Design specifically calls out that Painter isn't Invested any more than a normal person on his planet, artist or not, should be. Yumi, by contrast, is incredibly Invested, which was done to her by the Hijo at her birth, or soon after it. The artistic excellence in stacking rocks wasn't the cause for her power, it was her way of channeling the power she already possessed.

Edit: Nikaro was never in the CR either. He was a CS in the PR.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[Treamayne]

On 7/26/2023 at 7:28 PM, Leuthie said:

Reminder: Painter never used Investiture.

I don't know that this is entirely accurate;

41 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Design specifically calls out that Painter isn't Invested any more than a normal person on his planet, artist or not, should be.

Design does say that (Ch 32) but we also see that to start affecting the Nightmare the painter (Nikaro in this case - but likely all of them) has to forge a Connection to the Nightmare. So, while they may not have any investiture over the normal amount (which is why anybody with skill can train to become a painter), it seems likely that they are doing something with the little innate investiture they have (Ch 3):

Spoiler

Farther along the narrow alley, by a bare wall, he found the nightmare: a thing of ink and shadow some seven feet tall. It had fashioned two long arms that bent too many times, the elongated palms pressed against the wall, fingers spread. Its head had sunk through the stone to peek into the room beyond.

The tall ones always unnerved him, particularly when they had long fingers. He felt he’d seen figures like that in his own fragmented dreams—figments of terrors buried within. His feet scraped the stones, and the thing heard and withdrew its head, wisps of formless blackness rising from it like ash from a smoldering fire.

No face though. They never had faces—not unless something was going very wrong. Instead they usually displayed a deeper blackness on the front of the head. One that dripped dark liquid. Like tears, or wax near a flame.

Painter immediately raised his mental protections, thinking calm thoughts. This was the first and most important training. The nightmares, like many predators that fed on minds, could sense thoughts and emotions. They searched for the most powerful, raw ones to feed upon. A placid mind was of little interest.

The thing turned and put its head through the wall again. This building had no windows, which was foolish. Nightmares could ignore walls. In removing windows, the occupants trapped themselves more fully in the boxes of their homes, feeding their claustrophobia—and making the jobs of the painters more difficult.

Painter moved carefully, slowly, taking a canvas—a good three-foot by three-foot piece of thick cloth on a frame—from his shoulder bag. He set it on the ground in front of him. His jar of ink followed—black and runny. Nightmare painters always worked in black on white, no colors, as you wanted something that mimicked the look of a nightmare. The ink blend was designed to give excellent gradations in the grey and black. Not that Painter bothered with that much nuance these days.

He dipped the brush in the ink and knelt above his canvas, then paused, gazing at the nightmare. The blackness continued to steam off it, and its shape was still fairly indistinct. This was probably only its first or second trip into the city. It took a good dozen trips before a nightmare had enough substance to be dangerous—and they had to return to the shroud each time to renew, lest they evaporate away.

Judging by its appearance, this one was fairly new. It probably couldn’t hurt him.

Probably.

And here was the crux of why painters were so important, yet so disposable. Their job was essential, but not urgent. As long as a nightmare was discovered within its first ten or so trips into the city, it could be neutralized. That almost always happened.

Painter was good at controlling his fear with thoughts like these. That was part of his training—very pragmatic. Once his breathing calmed, he tried to consider what the nightmare looked like, what its shape could have been. Supposedly if you picked something that the entity already resembled, then painted that, you would have more power over it. He had trouble with this. Or rather, during the last few months it had felt like more trouble than it was worth.

So today he settled on the shape of a small bamboo thicket and began painting. The thing had spindly arms, after all. Those were kind of like bamboo.

He’d practiced a great number of bamboo stalks. In fact, you could say that Painter had a certain scientific precision in the way he drew each segment—a little sideways flourish at the start, followed by a long line. You let the brush linger a moment so that when you raised it, the blot the brush left formed the end knob of the bamboo segment. You could create each in a single stroke.

It was efficient, and these days that seemed most important to him. As he painted, he fixed the shape in his mind—a central powerful image. As usual such deliberate thought drew the thing’s attention. It hesitated, then pulled its head out from the wall and turned in his direction, its face dripping its own ink.

It moved toward him, walking on its arms, but those had grown more round. With knobbed segments.

Painter continued. Stroke. Flourish. Leaves made with quick flips of the brush, blacker than the main body of the bamboo. Similar protrusions appeared on the arms of the thing as it drew closer. It also shrank in upon itself as he painted a pot at the bottom.

The painting captured the thing. Diverted it. So that by the time it reached him, the transformation was fully in effect.

As you can see, when he first raises his mental "barriers" it ignores him because he's not feeling enough emotion - once the Connection is formed (bolded) it leaves the "meal" behind to try stalking the one that would "capture" it.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I don't know that this is entirely accurate;

Design does say that (Ch 32) but we also see that to start affecting the Nightmare the painter (Nikaro in this case - but likely all of them) has to forge a Connection to the Nightmare. So, while they may not have any investiture over the normal amount (which is why anybody with skill can train to become a painter), it seems likely that they are doing something with the little innate investiture they have (Ch 3):

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Farther along the narrow alley, by a bare wall, he found the nightmare: a thing of ink and shadow some seven feet tall. It had fashioned two long arms that bent too many times, the elongated palms pressed against the wall, fingers spread. Its head had sunk through the stone to peek into the room beyond.

The tall ones always unnerved him, particularly when they had long fingers. He felt he’d seen figures like that in his own fragmented dreams—figments of terrors buried within. His feet scraped the stones, and the thing heard and withdrew its head, wisps of formless blackness rising from it like ash from a smoldering fire.

No face though. They never had faces—not unless something was going very wrong. Instead they usually displayed a deeper blackness on the front of the head. One that dripped dark liquid. Like tears, or wax near a flame.

Painter immediately raised his mental protections, thinking calm thoughts. This was the first and most important training. The nightmares, like many predators that fed on minds, could sense thoughts and emotions. They searched for the most powerful, raw ones to feed upon. A placid mind was of little interest.

The thing turned and put its head through the wall again. This building had no windows, which was foolish. Nightmares could ignore walls. In removing windows, the occupants trapped themselves more fully in the boxes of their homes, feeding their claustrophobia—and making the jobs of the painters more difficult.

Painter moved carefully, slowly, taking a canvas—a good three-foot by three-foot piece of thick cloth on a frame—from his shoulder bag. He set it on the ground in front of him. His jar of ink followed—black and runny. Nightmare painters always worked in black on white, no colors, as you wanted something that mimicked the look of a nightmare. The ink blend was designed to give excellent gradations in the grey and black. Not that Painter bothered with that much nuance these days.

He dipped the brush in the ink and knelt above his canvas, then paused, gazing at the nightmare. The blackness continued to steam off it, and its shape was still fairly indistinct. This was probably only its first or second trip into the city. It took a good dozen trips before a nightmare had enough substance to be dangerous—and they had to return to the shroud each time to renew, lest they evaporate away.

Judging by its appearance, this one was fairly new. It probably couldn’t hurt him.

Probably.

And here was the crux of why painters were so important, yet so disposable. Their job was essential, but not urgent. As long as a nightmare was discovered within its first ten or so trips into the city, it could be neutralized. That almost always happened.

Painter was good at controlling his fear with thoughts like these. That was part of his training—very pragmatic. Once his breathing calmed, he tried to consider what the nightmare looked like, what its shape could have been. Supposedly if you picked something that the entity already resembled, then painted that, you would have more power over it. He had trouble with this. Or rather, during the last few months it had felt like more trouble than it was worth.

So today he settled on the shape of a small bamboo thicket and began painting. The thing had spindly arms, after all. Those were kind of like bamboo.

He’d practiced a great number of bamboo stalks. In fact, you could say that Painter had a certain scientific precision in the way he drew each segment—a little sideways flourish at the start, followed by a long line. You let the brush linger a moment so that when you raised it, the blot the brush left formed the end knob of the bamboo segment. You could create each in a single stroke.

It was efficient, and these days that seemed most important to him. As he painted, he fixed the shape in his mind—a central powerful image. As usual such deliberate thought drew the thing’s attention. It hesitated, then pulled its head out from the wall and turned in his direction, its face dripping its own ink.

It moved toward him, walking on its arms, but those had grown more round. With knobbed segments.

Painter continued. Stroke. Flourish. Leaves made with quick flips of the brush, blacker than the main body of the bamboo. Similar protrusions appeared on the arms of the thing as it drew closer. It also shrank in upon itself as he painted a pot at the bottom.

The painting captured the thing. Diverted it. So that by the time it reached him, the transformation was fully in effect.

As you can see, when he first raises his mental "barriers" it ignores him because he's not feeling enough emotion - once the Connection is formed (bolded) it leaves the "meal" behind to try stalking the one that would "capture" it.

I don't think a Connection is being formed. Nightmare Painting is all about perception and fear; the Painters are trained to remain calm because the Nightmares feed on imagination, and especially fear. That's why they ignore them while their "mental protections" are up. That's why when Painter "fixed a shape in his mind—a central powerful image", it draws the Nightmare's attention. It's an intentionally noticeable thought coming out of the blue from deliberately uninteresting ones. That's not him Connecting to the Nightmare in any way. Because Nightmares are Identitiless and formed without the oversight of a Shard, they're particularly vulnerable to other people's perceptions. Take Returned, for example. They physically change to match whatever the conventional beauty standards of society are, despite not being Connected to each and every person in said society, or even to the land itself.

The same goes for Nightmares, but on a much more extreme level. By forcing himself to perceive a Nightmare in a specific way, the Nightmare itself changes to fit the perception. The perception has to be very clear and willful though, which is why Painting is used as a focus, because it takes elements from the form a Nightmare has already taken and forms an actual picture for you to look at, which makes it easier to also see the Nightmare as such.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Because Nightmares are Identitiless

They can't be completely without Identity (Ch 40):

Spoiler

Quote

Yes. Familiar.

Lupine. Smoky shape like jagged edges of glass. Liyun was here…

Liyun. Painter’s eyes widened.

That was the answer.

***

He didn’t look at the shifting darkness to find some vague impression. He didn’t need that crutch. He knew what she was.

He knew her. Stern and unyielding, yet deep down just wanting to help. Those frown lines, those twin blades of hair, that bell-shaped dress…

He didn’t look at her as he painted, but he felt the effects of what he was doing as the others nearby muttered. You weren’t supposed to paint nightmares as people. A person could still kill you. The goal was to pick something innocent, harmless.

Liyun was anything but harmless. Yet he knew this nightmare at its core. That changed everything.

 

So it's more like a block of some kind preventing their SR Identity from being expressed in the CR and PR. If the nightmares did not fundamentally have an Identity, the entire climax fails. It's more like they can't express it without assistance (Father Machine in the recreations / Painter in the Climax)

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The perception has to be very clear and willful though, which is why Painting is used as a focus, because it takes elements from the form a Nightmare has already taken and forms an actual picture for you to look at, which makes it easier to also see the Nightmare as such.

I get that, but what do you think happens at the point I bolded in the Ch 3 quote? If it's not forming a Connection (even a temporary one) to impose the painter's vision on the nightmare's form - then do you think it is some kind of bond? The phrasing seems far too emphatic to just be nothing. . .

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

4 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

They can't be completely without Identity (Ch 40):

So it's more like a block of some kind preventing their SR Identity from being expressed in the CR and PR. If the nightmares did not fundamentally have an Identity, the entire climax fails. It's more like they can't express it without assistance (Father Machine in the recreations / Painter in the Climax)

You're confusing identity with Identity. One is just a Cognitive phenomenon, a sense of self, and the other is the imprint your sense of self makes on your Investiture. A Feruchemist storing Identity doesn't stop being a person, it just means their imprint on their Investiture has been removed. Liyun can still Cognitively be Liyun the person without having her Spiritual Identity, which was evaporated when she died.

4 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I get that, but what do you think happens at the point I bolded in the Ch 3 quote? If it's not forming a Connection (even a temporary one) to impose the painter's vision on the nightmare's form - then do you think it is some kind of bond? The phrasing seems far too emphatic to just be nothing. . .

I think what I said. Nothing in that entire scene, even the part you bolded, stands out to me as something more than just Painter doing specific mental exercises. Nightmare Painting isn't an Invested Art, it's a clever application of how perception affects Cognitive Entities in a way that looks like an Invested Art. It's just Painter holding a specific image in his mind and convincing himself that that's what the Nightmare looks like, that that's what the Nightmare is.

[alder24]

On 3.07.2023 at 0:15 AM, Firesong said:

Yumi's return at the end left me somewhat confused, and I think I have an idea of what actually happened. 

So, Yumi was basically just Investiture at that point, she died and was a Cognitive Shadow maintained by the Father Machine and the Shroud. It is the only way she could have survived that long without aging at all, I feel. She wasn't in a true time loop, after all, time was still passing normally. She just had her memory erased. So she was likely killed when the Father Machine went off, but her heavily Invested nature kept her as a Cognitive Shadow upon death. 

When both the Father Machine and the Shroud left, she no longer had something to keep her together, and dissipated. But her Investiture still held Connection and memories (they talk about Investiture containing memories several times in the book, and how it is how Cognitive Shadows don't forget everything), and thus, when Painter tried to bring her back with art, he didn't *truly* bring her back, but instead brought forth the still Connected Investiture and reformed it into a memory or facsimile of Yumi. This would fit with how the use of art brings forth bits of Investiture that have some Connection to the user, with Yumi able to summon the hijo so well due to her Connection to them (it talks about how heavily Invested she is by them, which would form a strong Connection; and how when the Connection between Painter and Yumi was forcibly cut, he lost his ability to summon the hijo), so to did Painter have a strong Connection to Yumi, and thus was able to summon her Investiture with art. She is also heavily Invested specifically by the type of Investiture that is attracted to creative acts.  

It also fits with the way the passage is written, where it talks about the Shroud vanishing as if it were some sort of time limit, that Painter was racing against the clock. While he dissipating Investiture was still close by for him to summon.  The very dense Investiture all around was also likely able to provide enough energy to form into the matter needed to give her a body, instead of just being a only partially-physically blob of Investiture like Spren. 

Essentially, she still *did* die, and this is essentially a copy. A Cognitive Shadow of a Cognitive Shadow, in a sense. Something allowed only by the very specific circumstances that they found themselves in. 

Addition: Other proof she was already a Cognitive Shadow beforehand, the way she died is not at all how souls are described as going into the Beyond. There wasn't any stretching to a distant point, it was more like she was dissolving, being taken apart at the seams. That isn't something that happens to normal souls. This is a very intentional choice, as it is very consistent with the few times we see the passage into the Beyond, Brandon wouldn't have forgotten, and also, Hoid is definitely the type to be very knowledgeable on this subject. Thus the incongruence acts as further evidence to the idea she became a Cognitive Shadow upon the activation of the Father Machine. This also exactly matches with the way we see the Torish people dissolve. (See page 461 to 462)

 

(accidently posted this in the wrong area first : P )

Now we know every Nightmare and Yumi was a CS before destruction of the machine. 

Spoiler

[...]

Comatose

So it's more of a autonomous-- a lightweaving that's become autonomous and has kind of broken down a bit?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah...  the problem is it's also got the Cognitive Shadow, right? It's a really invested cognitive shadow that is borrowing this investiture to interact with the world. Because these are their shadows; these are their cognitive shadows, all of these people's cognitive shadows. But the power is not themselves. Remember, a Cognitive Shadow is a little bit like a fossil, like Vasher describes it. You've got this pattern there, and then the power kind of makes it manifest and be able to interact, and things like that. And, when that personality asserts itself with that power in the right place, you end up with a person that is the shadow running it. But at the same time, you've got this mass of power and energy that the machine is kind of controlling, which pulls back and overrides the personality sometimes. You've got a very weird set of circumstances going on here.

[...]

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

I disagree only about the double CS part, she didn't die again. I think this was simply stretching into the Beyond (the shroud was physical, it would look different when fading into the Beyond than what we've seen so far - it's more similar to what's Nightblood's smoke leaking out of it looks like, it still fades into the SR), combined with Nikaro attracting her like she attracts spirits with stacking rock, and using perception to shape her a physical body like all painters do with Yumi's conscious decision to stay and be physical. At that point she was ready to sacrifice herself, as that was the sole purpose of every Yoki-Hijo, and she was Yoki-Hijo. Because of that she thought she needed to fade and was going to do that. However Nikaro attracted her and made her realize that she can be just Yumi, she can be happy for herself and she has a choice - that was the entire arc that Yumi went through - be Yoki-Hijo or Yumi, in the end she chose to be Yumi. 

Additionally, it's very likely that despite her soul's investment, it's the machine that kept her connected to either PR or SR, which all CS need to have, otherwise they will fade into the Beyond like normal souls. This connection was severed but Nikaro reestablished it with him and his painting, giving her a choice. 

 

On 3.07.2023 at 0:35 AM, Argenti said:

We're not sure what it's like when a cognitive shadow dies or if they persist after death like a normal person. 

We know - Rashek and Vin. 

Edit: not that they died as CS, that their souls were so invested that they could stay. CS likely have the same choice again, if their body was killed, or they fade into the Beyond like normal souls when their connections to PR or SR was removed, like Kelek said. Now I think about it, killing the body of Returned would fade their soul like a normal soul (their body is the connection to PR, and they don't have connection to SR which would sustain them), so this example of Vin and Rashek is wrong. Better example then is Jez, who just faded.

 

On 14.07.2023 at 1:44 AM, Cocoa said:

I agree with you on the technical mechanics of everything, but I don't agree with your end conclusion that we're looking at a facsimile/that she didn't truly come back. It's the Theseus' Ship/Star Trek transporter issue. If you take a person all the way apart and then put the pieces back together, is it still them? And in the context of the Cosmere, I believe the answer is 'yes,' at least if you do it fast enough. A person's soul might be 'tangible' in the form of investiture, but there's also an intangible quality to their existence beyond that, I think. For example, we have this WOB regarding Phendorana's fate, and she was outright annihilated by anti-Stormlight:

When you factor in that 'simple' dissolution is a lot less serious than that, then I think who we see at the end is in fact the 'real' Yumi, alive and well. If not the original flesh-and-blood one from seventeen hundred years ago, then at least the same one that we've been following throughout the novel.

Of course, we're in deep deep metaphysics at this point. Vasher, for one, would almost certainly agree with you that we're essentially looking at a double-fossilized soul that mistakenly believes herself to be the original.

I fully agree. To add more, the spiritweb stays in SR almost forever, even when a person dies and goes into the Beyond. It's still there. Yumi's spiritweb is still the same before and after the epilogue, that's what Nikaro attracted.

Spoiler

Argent

Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free iInvestiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm.

Oversleep

Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)?

Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 5, 2017)

 

On 29.07.2023 at 11:01 AM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Because Nightmares are Identitiless and formed without the oversight of a Shard, they're particularly vulnerable to other people's perceptions.

On 29.07.2023 at 1:03 PM, Treamayne said:

They can't be completely without Identity (Ch 40):

They have personality - that's Liyun - usually overridden by the machine when in the Shroud, but once hunting their personality comes back slightly, as the machine doesn't control them that much. But it was said the identity was gone, Ch 39 (notice uppercase I):

Quote

This machine immediately began feeding on them, destroying their bodies and harvesting their Investiture. The result was the shroud, sprayed into the air, left to rain down and blanket the land. A dark miasma literally crafted from the dead, everyone’s Identities evaporated and transformed into this dark force.

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by alder24

[Treamayne]

37 minutes ago, alder24 said:

They have personality - that's Liyun - usually overridden by the machine when in the Shroud, but once hunting their personality comes back slightly, as the machine doesn't control them that much. But it was said the identity was gone, Ch 39 (notice uppercase I):

Spoiler

This machine immediately began feeding on them, destroying their bodies and harvesting their Investiture. The result was the shroud, sprayed into the air, left to rain down and blanket the land. A dark miasma literally crafted from the dead, everyone’s Identities evaporated and transformed into this dark force.

 

Right. I took that to mean their Cognitive Self (an application of identity) became discorporated - but it could not have been separated from the rest of their Spiritweb in the SR or Painter's Climax fails. I took his painting of them as the people they actually had been to be reconnecting their Cognitive Identity to their Spiritual Identity. That allowed their discorparated Cognitive Self to reform from the Shroud (as seen)

So, I can agree that the Cognitive Identity was broken down and incorporated into the Shroud, the part I do not agree with is that their Spiritweb lost its Identity. 

I hope that makes sense to somebody besides me. . .