What Is Virtuosity's Number?

[Argenti he/him]

2 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Autonomy might be feel, as it was about individuality and the differences between people, but the manifestation through Bavadin is just really weird. As Autonomy talks about themselves a lot, and are about individuality, I feel that is more Internal) I feel Devotion would go in Bind. Which would make it into another set of opposite ideas that ultimately go together. Matching the pattern I am seeing. 

  Hide contents

• Create/Begin
  • Endowment (Internal(?) ?)
  • Virtuosity (External ?)
  • Invention (External ?)
  • ???
• Bind/Remain
  • Preservation (External Pushing)
  • Dominion (External Pulling)
  • Honor (Internal Pulling)
  • Devotion (Internal Pushing)
• Change 
  • Ambition (Internal Pulling)
  • Whimsy (Internal Pushing)
  • Ruin (External Pushing)
  • Cultivation (External Pulling)
• Feel
  • Odium (Internal)
  • Valor (External)
  • Mercy (External)
  • Autonomy (Internal)

Very vague and doesn't all fit, but I feel like I am getting somewhere. 

Bavadin is so annoying.

[Firesong she/her]

1 minute ago, Argenti said:

Bavadin is so annoying.

They really interest me though, I want to learn more about them and their motives. They seem like they are one of the big bads of the cosmere at large. At least until the end of Era 3. Especially interesting is why she is spreading like she is, and how she makes Perpendicularities the way they do. 

also no comment on my interpretation?

[Argenti he/him]

Just now, Firesong said:

They really interest me though, I want to learn more about them and their motives. They seem like they are one of the big bads of the cosmere at large. At least until the end of Era 3. Especially interesting is why she is spreading like she is, and how she makes Perpendicularities the way they do. 

also no comment on my interpretation?

I agrees with it completely, I thought through pretty much the same though process. When I made it forever ago I forgot Devotion existed and had to shove it in somewhere. Autonomy also was a weird one, not sure what's the shard and what's Bavadin.

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

4 hours ago, Firesong said:

 

  Hide contents

• Create/Begin
  • Endowment (Internal(?) ?)
  • Virtuosity (External ?)
  • Invention (External ?)
  • ???
• Bind/Remain
  • Preservation (External Pushing)
  • Dominion (External Pulling)
  • Honor (Internal Pulling)
  • Devotion (Internal Pushing)
• Change 
  • Ambition (Internal Pulling)
  • Whimsy (Internal Pushing)
  • Ruin (External Pushing)
  • Cultivation (External Pulling)
• Feel
  • Odium (Internal)
  • Valor (External)
  • Mercy (External)
  • Autonomy (Internal)

Very vague and doesn't all fit, but I feel like I am getting somewhere. 

I like this interpretation a lot! Very well placed, and I agree - I reckon you're getting somewhere.

Still don't know about 'Feel' as a Dawnshard though. It feels a little less...certain as a Command when put up against the others (though Brandon did say one Dawnshard is different from the rest, so maybe that's why ) 

Now, why aren't there numbers for all of them yet?? 

[Firesong she/her]

6 hours ago, Werewolff Studios said:

I like this interpretation a lot! Very well placed, and I agree - I reckon you're getting somewhere.

Still don't know about 'Feel' as a Dawnshard though. It feels a little less...certain as a Command when put up against the others (though Brandon did say one Dawnshard is different from the rest, so maybe that's why ) 

Now, why aren't there numbers for all of them yet?? 

To be entirely fair, we haven't seen much about Cultivation, Devotion, Dominion, etc. The numbers for Devotion and Dominion are likely gonna show up in Elantris 2 and 3. 

 

[Treamayne]

20 hours ago, Firesong said:

Spoiler

 

Preservation 16

Honor 10

Odium 9 

Autonomy: 7 (I recall 7 showing up a lot in the Ars Arcanum of White Sand (in the Omnibus))

Virtuosity: 13 (Brandon said it being 13 is a good theory, and we see 13 show up a lot in the book)

Endowment: 5 (5 scholars, Returned are Fifth Heightening, etc)

Aethers: 12 (Not a Shard, but they are very connected to 12, so thought I would mention that)

Dawnshards: 4 (Same reasoning for inclusion as Aethers)

For things that are far more of an assumption 

Ambition: 3 (3 Simple Rules)

Cultivation: 3 (?) (She appeared to 3 known people to give them a Boon and Bane herself, Lift aging stopped 3 years before the story (iirc))

 

 

14 hours ago, Firesong said:

Spoiler

Ruin and Cultivation are Change. Ambition also fits with the idea of change, but less directly, it is more like, ambition is typically tied with an ambition to make some sort of change, be it in the world, or in one's personal life. 

Honor, Dominion, Preservation, and Devotion all relate to rules and stability in some way. 

Autonomy, Whimsy, and Virtuosity are basically about individuality. 

Virtuosity and Invention are two sides of creation

 

12 hours ago, Argenti said:

  Hide contents

• Create/Begin
  • Endowment (maybe?)
  • Virtuosity
  • Invention
  • ???
• Bind/Remain
  • Preservation
  • Honor
  • Dominion
  • Autonomy (This doesn't fit name wise but her behavior seems to signify it, with all the conquering) 
• Change 
  • Ambition
  • Whimsy
  • Ruin
  • Cultivation
• Feel
  • Odium
  • Valor
  • Mercy
  • Devotion (Could go in bind?)

 

11 hours ago, Firesong said:

Spoiler

• Create/Begin
  • Endowment (Internal(?) ?)
  • Virtuosity (External ?)
  • Invention (External ?)
  • ???
• Bind/Remain
  • Preservation (External Pushing)
  • Dominion (External Pulling)
  • Honor (Internal Pulling)
  • Devotion (Internal Pushing)
• Change 
  • Ambition (Internal Pulling)
  • Whimsy (Internal Pushing)
  • Ruin (External Pushing)
  • Cultivation (External Pulling)
• Feel
  • Odium (Internal)
  • Valor (External)
  • Mercy (External)
  • Autonomy (Internal)

 

I wonder if, perhaps, rather than guessing a "category" and trying to line up what Shards would fit that category; instead we could find a pattern in the numbers and find the categories by that pattern. Example:

Spoiler

1. ?
2. Cultivation?
3. Devotion?
4. Dominion?
5. Endownment
6. ?
7. Autonomy
8. ?
9. Odium
10. Honor
11. Ruin?
12. ?
13. Virtuosity
14. ?
15. ?
16. Preservation

Whimsy, Invention, Mercy, Valor, Ambition

Previous Discussons: Here (2,3)and here

So, I could see the following possible patterns:

• 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16
• 1,5,9,13 / 2,6,10,14 / 3,7,11,15 / 4,8,12,16
• 1-2,5-6 / 3-4,7-8 / 9-10,13-14 / 11-12,15-16
• 1-2,9-10 / 3-4,11-12 / 5-6,13-14 / 7-8,15-16

With so few numbers confirmed it would be hard to find any correlation; but does this imply anything rational?

[Firesong she/her]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I wonder if, perhaps, rather than guessing a "category" and trying to line up what Shards would fit that category; instead we could find a pattern in the numbers and find the categories by that pattern. Example:

  Hide contents

1. ?
2. Cultivation?
3. Devotion?
4. Dominion?
5. Endownment
6. ?
7. Autonomy
8. ?
9. Odium
10. Honor
11. Ruin?
12. ?
13. Virtuosity
14. ?
15. ?
16. Preservation

Whimsy, Invention, Mercy, Valor, Ambition

Previous Discussons: Here (2,3)and here

So, I could see the following possible patterns:

• 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16
• 1,5,9,13 / 2,6,10,14 / 3,7,11,15 / 4,8,12,16
• 1-2,5-6 / 3-4,7-8 / 9-10,13-14 / 11-12,15-16
• 1-2,9-10 / 3-4,11-12 / 5-6,13-14 / 7-8,15-16

With so few numbers confirmed it would be hard to find any correlation; but does this imply anything rational?

We also know that Adonalsium's number is 42 (joke, of course)

[Treamayne]

15 minutes ago, Firesong said:

We also know that Adonalsium's number is was 42

FTFY

[Argenti he/him]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

FTFY

The next question is, what are the combo shards numbers

[Firesong she/her]

1 hour ago, Argenti said:

The next question is, what are the combo shards numbers

This just made me think of like, is it possible for a Shard to be deeply corrupted to the point they are just an Anti-Shard of sort, like, Odium becomes 100% Anti-Voidlight. I wonder what such a Shard would be like, and if their Intent might manifest differently. And like, would Preservation + Anti-Ruin be different from what we get with Harmony? Makes one wonder. 

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

This just made me think of like, is it possible for a Shard to be deeply corrupted to the point they are just an Anti-Shard of sort, like, Odium becomes 100% Anti-Voidlight. I wonder what such a Shard would be like, and if their Intent might manifest differently. And like, would Preservation + Anti-Ruin be different from what we get with Harmony? Makes one wonder. 

You know what? That's it!

*Un-Ruins your Ruin* 

 

In seriousness, I feel the amount of Intent you'd need to convert a Shard's near-infinite amount of Investiture into Anti-Investiture would be virtually impossible. The Shard's Vessel would have to convince themselves that they are the inverse of themselves. I liken it to a human willing their own body to not exist. 

Even if it were possible, if you then combined two of the shards as you say, they would annihilate each other rather than combine into something like Harmony. 

[Firesong she/her]

5 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

You know what? That's it!

*Un-Ruins your Ruin* 

 

In seriousness, I feel the amount of Intent you'd need to convert a Shard's near-infinite amount of Investiture into Anti-Investiture would be virtually impossible. The Shard's Vessel would have to convince themselves that they are the inverse of themselves. I liken it to a human willing their own body to not exist. 

Even if it were possible, if you then combined two of the shards as you say, they would annihilate each other rather than combine into something like Harmony. 

The thing is, we don't know how Anti-Investiture interacts with another Investiture, only its own inverse. I think it is implied they won't destroy each other as Navani wasn't hurt by Anti-Voidlight and the Anti-Tone of Odium. 

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

9 hours ago, Firesong said:

To be entirely fair, we haven't seen much about Cultivation, Devotion, Dominion, etc. The numbers for Devotion and Dominion are likely gonna show up in Elantris 2 and 3. 

Now that I think about it, Devotion and Dominion likely have something to do with 6. There's six Selish magic systmes (AonDor, Bloodsealing, ChayShan, Dakhor, Forgery, Potions), six days in a week, six months in a year.

(Shai also has six Essence Marks, but that's probably more coincidence than anything else.)  

[Firesong she/her]

Just now, Werewolff Studios said:

Now that I think about it, Devotion and Dominion likely have something to do with 6. There's six Selish magic systmes (AonDor, Bloodsealing, ChayShan, Dakhor, Forgery, Potions), six days in a week, six months in a year.

(Shai also has six Essence Marks, but that's probably more coincidence than anything else.)  

Hmmm... maybe. But I also doubt there are only six systems, I think I actually remember Brandon confirming there are more somewhere, but forgot where or if he even actually did. 

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

3 minutes ago, Firesong said:

The thing is, we don't know how Anti-Investiture interacts with another Investiture, only its own inverse. I think it is implied they won't destroy each other as Navani wasn't hurt by Anti-Voidlight and the Anti-Tone of Odium. 

That's fair. I was looking at this WOB that mentioned an explosion, but you're right - it's not full on annihilation. 

Quote

R'Shara

Does anti-Investiture react to a different Shard’s Investiture in any significant way?

Brandon Sanderson

The answer is kind of a no, kind of a yes. Mostly a no. Anti-Investiture is going to have an explosive reaction. But the thing is, if it’s anti-Investiture of a specific Shard, that explosion is much grander. But you can make that explosion happen in a just antimatter-and-matter same sort of thing. But you can make the explosion bigger.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

Hmmm... maybe. But I also doubt there are only six systems, I think I actually remember Brandon confirming there are more somewhere, but forgot where or if he even actually did. 

I did find this WOB on this, (one I haven't seen before! Woo!) However, it's still a bit vague - not exact line on how to define a new 'system' I suppose. 

Quote

aneonfoxtribute

Have many magic systems does Sel have?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how you define it. I would say over a dozen if you're dividing AonDor versus Forging as different magic systems. They have over a dozen. It depends on what you kind of circumscribe in the same style of magic system with just different ways to access it. It just depends on your definition.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

[Treamayne]

19 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

Now that I think about it, Devotion and Dominion likely have something to do with 6. There's six Selish magic systmes (AonDor, Bloodsealing, ChayShan, Dakhor, Forgery, Potions), six days in a week, six months in a year.

(Shai also has six Essence Marks, but that's probably more coincidence than anything else.)  

17 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Hmmm... maybe. But I also doubt there are only six systems, I think I actually remember Brandon confirming there are more somewhere, but forgot where or if he even actually did. 

@Firesong hit the nail. There are six or seven that we have seen on-screen (depending on if Resealing is different from Forgery - in that Forgery uses a MaiPon glyph to close the stamp and Resealing is portrayed as the naitve investiture of the Rose Empire (or at least the home nation of the Grands that eventuallt formed the Rose Empire) and likely closes with a different "nation-based" glyph. At least it certainly does not sound the the Grands of the Rose EMpire would be using stamps that Seal with the national glyph of what they consider a back-water province. . . ). That's not even counting the (likely) third Continent we haven't even seen yet (my bet is MesoAmerica) and who-knows-how -many varieties of investiture we'll find there.

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

aneonfoxtribute

Have many magic systems does Sel have?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how you define it. I would say over a dozen if you're dividing AonDor versus Forging as different magic systems. They have over a dozen. It depends on what you kind of circumscribe in the same style of magic system with just different ways to access it. It just depends on your definition.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

No. I was looking at this and decided that what people call a magic system is more a human construct of etymology and categorization than it is an actual true magic systems. You could claim that all the magics on Roshar are just one magic system: applying the powers of nature through the Knights Radiant and stuff like that. You could say that is just one magic. You could say that the magics on Sel, Elantris' world, are all the same magic. People divide them into systems saying "these are Aons and these are with the Skaze" but those are kind of the same thing, it's just different powers. So that's a human construct just like saying animal, vegetable, mineral, mammal, non-mammal. That's a human construct. Yes there are Laws in nature that we are using as our guidelines but those are our constructs.

Quote

Crspu

Is there going to be a magic system for every Shard? 

Brandon Sanderson

So the answer is yes and no, in that every one of the Shards will inspire really interesting magic systems. But is there a one to one? What do you call a magic system? And beyond that, will I have time to write books about all of these, I don't know. You could even look at Sel. Sel has how many magic systems, is it one? Is it lots? Is Forging a different magic system from AonDor, or is it two aspects of the same magic system and so... It's tricky. 

Quote

Nimrod Rappaport

In Arcanum Unbounded you mentioned that Sel is one of the biggest planets. You also mentioned that there are three empires on that planet. In Elantris 2 two will we get... You also mentioned that they are largely ignorant of each other, will we get a book in which those empires interact? Maybe in Elantris 2? 

Also, can you please specify on their nature and maybe some inspirations you got when writing and thinking about them?

Brandon Sanderson

So, sure. Sel wears its inspirations quite blatantly on its sleeve, right? It's not that obvious for instance in Stormlight that the Alethi are based off of Mongolians, because there's so much more in the mix there, that it's not quite as obvious. But in Sel, it's a little more obvious. You know, basically the idea came to me that what if the vikings had united behind a very hierarchical religion like Catholicism, and we had Catholic vikings, conquering the world. What would the world look like and that is where the entire religion came from.

Actually the truth is it's like, there was this priest, right, and one group became Buddhist and the other became Catholic vikings and, you know, Buddhist Renaissance... Italians is kind of where we got there and of course, the Rose Empire the inspirations are a little bit more Eastern and Middle Eastern. For instance, the Grands are based on Babylonian influences and I'm kind of looking at a lot of Babylonian, a little bit of Syrian. But of course Shai is very very clearly based on East Asian cultures and specifically China.

So, the empires and things like that... for there you might have noticed that we've got a Europe centered one, and an Asia/Eastern centered one, so you might be able to theorize where the third empire's inspirations might be or at least a list of possible candidates.

 

Edit: Ninja'd by WoD/WtA Studios

Edited July 12, 2023 by Treamayne

[Firesong she/her]

16 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

@Firesong hit the nail. There are six or seven that we have seen on-screen (depending on if Resealing is different from Forgery - in that Forgery uses a MaiPon glyph to close the stamp and Resealing is portrayed as the naitve investiture of the Rose Empire (or at least the home nation of the Grands that eventuallt formed the Rose Empire) and likely closes with a different "nation-based" glyph. At least it certainly does not sound the the Grands of the Rose EMpire would be using stamps that Seal with the national glyph of what they consider a back-water province. . . ). That's not even counting the (likely) third Continent we haven't even seen yet (my bet is MesoAmerica) and who-knows-how -many varieties of investiture we'll find there.

WoBs:

  Hide contents

 

Edit: Ninja'd by WoD/WtA Studios

It could be Mesoamerica, yeah. But it could just as easily be Africa or Oceania. 

And also, I am excited for when we get a more accurate Sel map. As the biggest map we have is intentionally very, very inaccurate due to a lot of political motivations (love how they are in-world ephemera like that). The sizes are very inaccurate as Fjorden really wants to feel important and make other peoples look small and uncivilized (they called the Rose Empire the Rose Barbarians, for goodness sake).  The team said that they plan on making a larger and more accurate one later.

Speaking of maps, I wonder how much of Scadrial is water versus land. As the main two continents (well, what we have seen of them, both extend off screen), are very, very small compared to what we know about the planet size. (We can make out the size due to the maps of Elendel Basin and the Final Empire having scales) Definitely excited for the world map in Era 3. Also hope Era 3 touches more on the Maskless. 

Basically, I love maps.  

 

[Treamayne]

19 minutes ago, Firesong said:

It could be Mesoamerica, yeah. But it could just as easily be Africa or Oceania. 

Oh, absolutely. My reasoning is more pedestrian:

Spoiler

We know he's researching Aztec history and culture for The Aztlantean (Rithmatist 2)  - but I think he's also using that research to prep for Sel's third continent (or will be inspired by that research and use it as such).

 

[Firesong she/her]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Oh, absolutely. My reasoning is more pedestrian:

  Hide contents

We know he's researching Aztec history and culture for The Aztlantean (Rithmatist 2)  - but I think he's also using that research to prep for Sel's third continent (or will be inspired by that research and use it as such).

 

Aztec seems like a much more likely inspiration, due to being a notable empire. It also just, feels more Selish than the others. He also already made a Oceania inspired people (specifically Polynesian, but that is a part of Oceania) with the Unkalaki and Eelakians, and hasn't done Aztec before in cosmere, which makes that feel less likely. 

So, yeah, Mesoamerica feels like a likely inspiration. 

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

@Firesong hit the nail. There are six or seven that we have seen on-screen (depending on if Resealing is different from Forgery - in that Forgery uses a MaiPon glyph to close the stamp and Resealing is portrayed as the naitve investiture of the Rose Empire (or at least the home nation of the Grands that eventuallt formed the Rose Empire) and likely closes with a different "nation-based" glyph. At least it certainly does not sound the the Grands of the Rose EMpire would be using stamps that Seal with the national glyph of what they consider a back-water province. . . ). That's not even counting the (likely) third Continent we haven't even seen yet (my bet is MesoAmerica) and who-knows-how -many varieties of investiture we'll find there.

WoBs:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Edit: Ninja'd by WoD/WtA Studios

Ahh, lovely - always good to read some WOB's I haven't seen before! Thank you for passing on  Got me extra excited for the future Sel novels.

53 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Basically, I love maps.  

Ditto. I'm really looking forward to when we have a full map for all the cosmere planets. Really excited!

And yes, still so much to explore on Scadrial. Someone did a great reprojection of the known continents against the Earth, and it goes to show how much we don't know!

Spoiler

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Werewolff Studios

[Firesong she/her]

18 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

Ahh, lovely - always good to read some WOB's I haven't seen before! Thank you for passing on  Got me extra excited for the future Sel novels.

Ditto. I'm really looking forward to when we have a full map for all the cosmere planets. Really excited!

And yes, still so much to explore on Scadrial. Someone did a great reprojection of the known continents against the Earth, and it goes to show how much we don't know!

  Hide contents

 

Hey, thats the map Issac said was actually very accurate. But last time I checked I thought that the size was a bit smaller, based on the Basin up top, but I may have miscalculated. 

I do also wonder why the Southern Continent is so cold. But the WoP did bring up the fact that mountains can get really cold. So probably down to them living largely in the mountains. It is an incredibly mountainous continent, after all. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

Aztec seems like a much more likely inspiration, due to being a notable empire. It also just, feels more Selish than the others. He also already made a Oceania inspired people (specifically Polynesian, but that is a part of Oceania) with the Unkalaki and Eelakians, and hasn't done Aztec before in cosmere, which makes that feel less likely. 

So, yeah, Mesoamerica feels like a likely inspiration. 

Exactly, though I generalize my prediction to Mesoamerica because if he is doing Aztec specifically in Rithmatist, then I expect he'll use elements from multiples in any Cosmere region - lots of great inspiration there: Incan, Mayan, Olmec, Zapotec, Quechuas, etc.

58 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

Someone did a great reprojection of the known continents against the Earth, and it goes to show how much we don't know!

Pretty sure that was @Jofwu in this thread.

31 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I do also wonder why the Southern Continent is so cold.

It's probably not that cold. I wrote about it when TLM was in spoiler season here and here.

BLUF: It's their millenia long adaptation to a high temperature environment (they had no ashmounts to cool them) and Brandon confirmed they adapted a natually low core body temperature which makes them cold intolerant.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Treamayne

[Firesong she/her]

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Exactly, though I generalize my prediction to Mesoamerica because if he is doing Aztec specifically in Rithmatist, then I expect he'll use elements from multiples in any Cosmere region - lots of great inspiration there: Incan, Mayan, Olmec, Zapotec, Quechuas, etc.

Pretty sure that was @Jofwu in this thread.

It's probably not that cold. I wrote about it when TLM was in spoiler season here and here.

BLUF: It's their millenia long adaptation to a high temperature environment (they had no ashmounts to cool them) and Brandon confirmed they adapted a natually low core body temperature which makes them cold intolerant.

True, we do see a flashback to it being really snowy and they call it the "Ice Death", but, given all the mountains, they likely were just mountain peoples. 

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

True, we do see a flashback to it being really snowy and they call it the "Ice Death", but, given all the mountains, they likely were just mountain peoples. 

Right, if they were actually mountain people, they should be less susceptable to the cold, not more so. And, if it were just mountains, they would not have had such a problem near the Sovereign's temple. But, they find even the mild weather of the Elendel Basin to be too cold - because they adapted to the much hotter climate.

[Firesong she/her]

29 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Right, if they were actually mountain people, they should be less susceptable to the cold, not more so. And, if it were just mountains, they would not have had such a problem near the Sovereign's temple. But, they find even the mild weather of the Elendel Basin to be too cold - because they adapted to the much hotter climate.

I meant, the mountains would still have been very hot by the time of the Catacendre, and they would become icy and cold after it. This I feel would inspire them calling it the Ice Death, as if they were at the surface, it wouldn't have really been icy. Probably forced them down the mountains and closer to the surface.