Anybody Else Unsatisfied with the Ending?

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

Did anybody else not quite like the ending of Yumi? I liked the book a lot: the art was amazing, the storyline was sufficiently plot-twisty, and the vibes were immaculate. I loved the neon-and-black color scheme of Kilahito and the heat-based ecosystem of Torio. The characters were fully flushed out and realistic, it really spoke to me as an artist (through both Yumi's single-minded devotion to her art while not thinking her best is enough and Nikaro's apathy and lack of interest/inspiration due to his artistic accomplishments falling flat) and I loved the ending, character-wise.

However, the Shroud (and with it, the Nightmares) dissipate at the end, and the whole mood of Kilahito that I loved so much just fell apart. I like brainstorming my own stories in these settings. For worlds like Roshar, I love that feeling that the world existed long before you or the characters and that it will continue once you stop reading and the characters die. Even though the ending was magnificent, the loss of such an amazing setting dampened it slightly for me. Was this the case for anyone else?

[Yumiya]

It did not bother me. I actually liked the melding of the two "worlds" back together. The setting existed for 1700 years, so there is still plenty of time to plan your own stories in. 

[GoldMisting]

4 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Did anybody else not quite like the ending of Yumi? I liked the book a lot: the art was amazing, the storyline was sufficiently plot-twisty, and the vibes were immaculate. I loved the neon-and-black color scheme of Kilahito and the heat-based ecosystem of Torio. The characters were fully flushed out and realistic, it really spoke to me as an artist (through both Yumi's single-minded devotion to her art while not thinking her best is enough and Nikaro's apathy and lack of interest/inspiration due to his artistic accomplishments falling flat) and I loved the ending, character-wise.

However, the Shroud (and with it, the Nightmares) dissipate at the end, and the whole mood of Kilahito that I loved so much just fell apart. I like brainstorming my own stories in these settings. For worlds like Roshar, I love that feeling that the world existed long before you or the characters and that it will continue once you stop reading and the characters die. Even though the ending was magnificent, the loss of such an amazing setting dampened it slightly for me. Was this the case for anyone else?

I loved the juxtaposition too.  I've mentioned in another thread that I'd recently read something else that wildly switched settings and limited color palettes (incidentally it also had several similar story themes and elements but did something totally different with them) and apparently I must like that sort of contrast

It is sad that Torio's people had been dead and their civilization left as only crumbling ruins for 1763 years and the geothermal conditions changed and the delicate ecosystem collapsed.  Kilahito and cities like it lost their ever present danger but kept a lot of their own culture and moved into yet another age, more or less the industrial era Torio was striving for and died for, where the dead who made it possible don't threaten their existence anymore.  Obviously they'll keep historical dramas going for the good of civilization and to some degree that can keep things approximating Torio and old Shroud era Kilahito alive as well as the actual scholarly history and prehistory.  I do, admittedly, have a fair background in history and anthropology so perhaps I'm ok with it for that reason.  Massive events take place and the world or massive parts of it are never the same.  The changes aren't always good or easy either and progress has a price we never anticipate.  Maybe the Torio ruins will become a monument like the Roman Forum or Mayan pyramids (incidentally both remnants of notable civilizations that were around 1700-1800 years ago) and perhaps contemporary native or worldhopper scholars will study them.  Obviously someone went there and found plants at least

Part of me imagines an approximation of the tour guides who took me through the ruins in our world.  An animated middle aged man leading groups of students through the ruins with descriptions of what it must have been like 1700 years ago while keeping curious young people out of active excavation sites

[Frustration he/him]

Yeah a little bit, but for much different reasons. 

I make military analysis of Cosmere worlds(this one should be along at some point) and the world before the machine and the one covered in the shroud were both much more powerful than what was left over.

[Treamayne]

On 7/7/2023 at 5:21 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Did anybody else not quite like the ending of Yumi?

Yes. But for entirely different reasons. I mentioned it in my reaction post - but Yumi's "saved by plot armor" really detracted from her characterization and realization that she chose to sacrifice this last time (instead of being fated by birth). I don't mind the loss of "neverending night" (mostly because it felt fake to me - "oh, these survivors have lived without the sun for generations, but have no adaptations to a sunless world? Must be nice.") But I also started not liking Yumi at all (the Tsundere was a bit too thick early on for my taste), then I started to like her character growth, then all that growth gets thown out for a last inning save. Meh.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

16 hours ago, Treamayne said:

But I also started not liking Yumi at all (the Tsundere was a bit too thick early on for my taste)

How is Yumi a tsundere at all? A tsundere is someone who has obvious romantic feelings for someone but hides them out of embarassment. Yumi's attraction to painter is much more gradual and slow, and at first they were friends at best. She is genuinely angry at him for lying or 'being lazy' or other things, she wasn't hiding affection under fake anger. She develops feelings for at like the halfway point

Sorry, i have heard other people say this and it makes no sense to me as that's not what tsundere means at all( I never like tsunderes in anime)

Technically, when their relationship becomes more friendly, she only becomes more comfortable and kind with him like Teasing him. That's the opposite of tsundere

[Treamayne]

12 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

How is Yumi a tsundere at all?

Tsun tsun means Harsh

Dere dere means Sweet/Affectionate

Tsundere is somebody who flip flops between two extremes (like Yumi harshly "my world my rules" when teaching stacking, then "your world my rules" when she decides she would rather go shopping than learn).

I'm not huge on Anime and its tropes - I know the term mostlyy from having lived in Japan and mostly in the context of somebody who flip-flops extremes.  It was just the best term I could think of to explain what I disliked about her through Parts 1 and 2. 

It may be that you are confusing Tsundere with other animae tropes? Kuudere or Yandere?

Edited July 14, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Jaleadewow]

I guess it's just Hoid telling a story, but the end is excessively happy. A society wich had no sun for thousands of years and relied on a very specific source of energy just manages to get there once the shroud is lifted and most of the Hyon lines stop working, seriously? They found seeds among the old capital? That place got super wrecked after the Machine stopped maintaining the shroud. Also, what about the astronauts...

[Frustration he/him]

Honestly the shroud was one of the coolest bits of worldbuilding in the entire cosmere, and it was barely even explored, I really wish it had stayed around.

[Argenti he/him]

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Honestly the shroud was one of the coolest bits of worldbuilding in the entire cosmere, and it was barely even explored, I really wish it had stayed around.

I expect we'll see more of shroud-like stuff.

[Frustration he/him]

34 minutes ago, Argenti said:

I expect we'll see more of shroud-like stuff.

More entire planets covered in unending night that creates monsters to feed on the fear of the living?

[Argenti he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

More entire planets covered in unending night that creates monsters to feed on the fear of the living?

More midnight essence and Nightblood. Besides, if Brandon really wants to he has 1700 years of shroud to work with.

[Cocoa he/him]

Not for the most part, no, though I do concur with a few other people here that it's a bummer that the Shroud just up and vanished. Having a "then the sun emerges" moment was the right way to go for sure, but I think it'd have been cool if it had changed to start working a little like the mists. Without being specifically sustained by the Father Machine, the Shroud burns away in daylight, and then re-emerges at sundown. Nightmares become more docile and intelligent, but some of them still pose a risk, since "a person can still hurt you." Something like that, maybe.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

19 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Tsun tsun means Harsh

Dere dere means Sweet/Affectionate

Tsundere is somebody who flip flops between two extremes (like Yumi harshly "my world my rules" when teaching stacking, then "your world my rules" when she decides she would rather go shopping than learn).

I'm not huge on Anime and its tropes - I know the term mostlyy from having lived in Japan and mostly in the context of somebody who flip-flops extremes.  It was just the best term I could think of to explain what I disliked about her through Parts 1 and 2. 

It may be that you are confusing Tsundere with other animae tropes? Kuudere or Yandere?

From the article that you linked

Quote

The reasons behind a Tsundere's behavior vary widely, but usually boil down to the conflict between their feelings of affection towards a love interest, and their reaction to having those feelings

That is to say, when the (usually) woman develops affection for the other character but is embarrassed and tries to hide it by acting tough and uncaring. An example of a quote from a tsundere will be

Quote

I just gave you this birthday gift because I thought you were lonely. It's not like I like you, Ba-Baka!(blushes angrily and turns head away so the hero can't see it)

I think we can agree, yumi is nowhere like that. She genuinely dislikes painter at the start(after the lie is revealed)

 

[Treamayne]

14 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I think we can agree, yumi is nowhere like that. She genuinely dislikes painter at the start(after the lie is revealed)

I think we can also agree that, whatever descriptor you use, Yumi spends the first two parts fluxuating between two extremes that amount to "you will do what I want and I will do what I want." Whatever term you want to use to describe it, it made me dislike her character. Part 3 made little improvement and when her character progressed enough in part 4 for me to start appreicating her character growth, she gets randomly saved by plot armor (which, to me, undermined her sacrifice). 

I don't really care what adjective you apply (I only used Tsundere because it was the closest I could think of at the time) - the combination of false/brainwashed humility plus hypocrisy plus double-standard was what I was trying to descibe in less words.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Aon Ati he/him]

I know that most will disagree strongly with me and this isn't a dig at anyone's opinion, but here's my thoughts on the ending. I LOVED this ending. I cried, I laughed, I beamed with happiness. I understand why some people don't think it was needed. Happy endings in stories are hard for people nowadays to take seriously, and I'm in that boat as well. In a world where life can be full of crappy scenarios it's hard to believe in a happy ending, even in a piece of fiction. Sanderson himself has stated that he is a chronic optimist. So it is easy to right this off as an optimist fantasy. So many will say: "Bring on the Joe Abercrombies, where grim dark is the rule of life. Bring on the George R.R. Martins, where no eucatastrophe can exist. Bring on the realist fantasy that says the heroes went home and no reward was found.". So I have a choice to make in regards to this book's ending. Which is more believable? A world where all ends in darkness and sadness; where hope and endings of joy are for the foolish and privileged? Or a world that is filled with nightmares and burning ground and is covered in darkness: but is also a world that every now and then, by chance or by providence, by the love of two people, gives something back? I've made my choice and I'm sticking to it.

Sorry if that seemed overly dramatic, but this book got me in the feels.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I think we can also agree that, whatever descriptor you use, Yumi spends the first two parts fluxuating between two extremes that amount to "you will do what I want and I will do what I want." Whatever term you want to use to describe it, it made me dislike her character. 

Instead of fluctuating between two extremes, i think it is more correct to say 'I am doing what I want'. She has good reasons to do that. She wants to get her body back, and second she finally has freedom after 19 years, so she uses it. Nightmare doesn't seem to particularly mind with yumi disobeying him( he just seems uncomfortable about them potentially revealing his secret), and she feels justified in not listening to him at all because he was a baldfaced liar. It certainly did not help his 'first' impression that he peeked again( the stare down scene). So I don't think she was much of a hypocrite at all, she was finally just having people to talk to and she wanted to

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by KaladinWorldsinger

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

On 7/16/2023 at 1:53 AM, Aon Ati said:

I know that most will disagree strongly with me and this isn't a dig at anyone's opinion, but here's my thoughts on the ending. I LOVED this ending.

Second this. Though I can understand why people aren't a fan, I really enjoyed the ending too. For me, this wasn't a story that needed to end tragically - it ended with both protagonists giving their all to save the ones they loved (and they even did it through art). I also enjoyed how Hoid even mentions this by saying that Nikaro didn't know the story was over - he kept going. Kept trying. That message of hope really struck home with me as well.

[TheWisestBear]

I loved the floating flowers and trees so I'm glad the people of Kilahito can experience them now that the shroud is gone.  And I'm also a sap for happy endings. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by TheWisestBear

[The Sibling she/her]

I mostly liked the ending. To be honest, I wasn't a super huge fan of the Shroud. I found that imagining this sort of dull city with hardly any light and a pretty restrictive color scheme was less fun then imagining Yumi's cities with floating plants and cold springs. When the Shroud went away at the end, it just seemed like a b=natural ending to the story. The problems that I do have with the ending are mostly about Yumi's survival. I really, really liked her character. I'm not sure why, because it seems like a lot of people didn't, but I found that I loved the way she had grown so much by the end of the book. Her sacrifice was such an important piece or her arc, and it seemed so pointless when she just came back. Other than that, I liked the ending. The epilogue was nice. Even though some people don't like happy endings, and I kind of wanted a sad one, the epilogue fit so well with the tone of the book taht it left me satisfied.

[Cephandrius01]

I thought the shroud was really cool and I was sad to see that go and this planet to sort of just be a normal place without anything super interesting. I know Sando isn't GRRM but sometimes I wish the deaths he has in the book were more central characters and felt final. I was super happy with the ending and Yumi's death and then you turn the page and it's like oh this didn't have any meaning. Something else I have come to realize, and I could be wrong as I am new to the cosmere, is that Sando can bring anyone back with an explanation that they were just chilling in the cognitive realm because they were very invested or something which takes away the significance of character death for me personally. 

[Config2]

5 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

I mostly liked the ending. To be honest, I wasn't a super huge fan of the Shroud. I found that imagining this sort of dull city with hardly any light and a pretty restrictive color scheme was less fun then imagining Yumi's cities with floating plants and cold springs. When the Shroud went away at the end, it just seemed like a b=natural ending to the story. The problems that I do have with the ending are mostly about Yumi's survival. I really, really liked her character. I'm not sure why, because it seems like a lot of people didn't, but I found that I loved the way she had grown so much by the end of the book. Her sacrifice was such an important piece or her arc, and it seemed so pointless when she just came back. Other than that, I liked the ending. The epilogue was nice. Even though some people don't like happy endings, and I kind of wanted a sad one, the epilogue fit so well with the tone of the book taht it left me satisfied.

I really liked the book, but didn't like the pacing of the ending: it has to do with the Hoidism of telling the story where all the stuff you care about is in the epilogues because he's the important part in his own story. It felt like the whole story, which I loved, was marginalized as part of a tourism ad for the planet. 

I do think the sacrifice component is a little overblown: part of Yumi's development is learning that she doesn't have to sacrifice herself for her society like she has been. She's a person who deserves to live and love without such an immense burden. I think leaving it at her "getting over" her objections to sacrificing herself is kind of diminutive of her journey. Plus there is Painter's journey to consider. One of his big conflicts in the book is that he lets himself be unhappy through inaction. He doesn't fight to earn his friends' trust back, and he doesn't fight to be good at his job. A big part of his growth is that he stops deluding himself into thinking he doesn't have agency. He makes the choice to pull Yumi back into reality because he can.

As far as the deaths of central characters, I think Sanderson is really careful about the concept of resurrection, but it's a huge part of the Cosmere theme (i.e. what if normal people had godlike power). For many of us, a big ticket on the god-power bucket list would be to bring back loved ones. Each time it happens, which I think is 3 times (people spoilered since you're new):

Spoiler

Kelsier, Szeth, and Yumi I think are the only ones. Might be forgetting some folks.

he makes sure to keep the divine fiat in clear view. I don't think that literally everyone who dies is "just chilling in the CR" until their story beat shows up. With the potential exception of Yumi (who I think thematically has to live) it's always a huge twist of fortune to have them survive or return. Plus Sanderson likes paying his characters for their suffering with some happiness:

Spoiler

Elantrians get immortality and super powers despite being mostly "dead" for a while. Spook gets cured of his savantism and gets to be a full mistborn. More or less the entire population of northern Scadrial got so much of a break for their suffering that it becomes a plot point in era 2 when they're technologically slower than expected. I think the payoff is part of what makes his books so enjoyable: you get to see people being happy at the end.

If you think of the body count Sanderson has wracked up, I'm pretty sure he's not over-using the resurrection stuff.

[Frustration he/him]

51 minutes ago, Cephandrius01 said:

I thought the shroud was really cool and I was sad to see that go and this planet to sort of just be a normal place without anything super interesting. I know Sando isn't GRRM but sometimes I wish the deaths he has in the book were more central characters and felt final. I was super happy with the ending and Yumi's death and then you turn the page and it's like oh this didn't have any meaning. Something else I have come to realize, and I could be wrong as I am new to the cosmere, is that Sando can bring anyone back with an explanation that they were just chilling in the cognitive realm because they were very invested or something which takes away the significance of character death for me personally. 

I've had the gripe of characters coming back for a long time.

I mean after Marsh, Syl, Szeth, Jasnah, Kelsier, and now Yumi, character death has lost any sense of consequence.

 

I'm still not entirely sure Elhokar is dead.

[Marshall D. Teach]

At first I wasn't satisfied with it. I wanted more story on how everyone just got along after a great ball of fire appeared in the sky.

But when i look at it from Hoid story telling perspective it is funny because the main characters are suddenly in the background as he talks to Design about leaving. It's funny to think that the first kiss (from a film perspective) is behind Hoid through the window, as ppl are running around freaking out about the sun and he's like what did I miss Design? It seems I'll have to chalk this one up to and it all just worked out.

[Duxredux he/him]

I'm content with the ending. Brandon gave Emily a happy ending to her romance story and I will not begrudge either of them that. Thematically, Yumi is the sun to Painter and I'm glad he gets to bask in the sun's light after living in darkness. Sure, structurally or setting-wise it would be cool to leave the Shroud in place or let Yumi die and leave Painter melancholy for life, but I'm far more likely to reread this book knowing I'll put it down with a smile.

I also read this not long after listening to Brandon and Dan talk about their memories of when the Iron Curtain fell on Intentionally Blank, so that may have nudged me towards accepting this ending. The Cold War is a fascinating time in history and lots of stories have been written about it, but it's also a terrible time. As Yumiya said, there's 1700 years to explore the Shroud if a prequel is ever written, but I'll also be fine if the society and technology persists - just without a nightmare of a curfew.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Duxredux
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