Breaths For Healing?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Hey everyone. While prowling other threads I noticed something mentioned by @alder24 talking about how divine breath is just supercharged regular breaths. We know that a divine breath can be used with the same command as a normal breath to perform a miraculous healing. Perhaps this is because the returned have grown to accept that this is the only use for their divine breath and that they will die once the command is spoken. But they do have a knowledge that it can be used for this, and I would imagine in a way, this would mean that they visualize the command healing the person they are giving their breath away to.

We know that a divine breath is worth the 5th heightening and thus around 2000 normal breaths and that it can heal anything! The divine breath cannot be used by the recipient for any purpose other than that healing. The entire divine breath is used up when the command is used whether it is curing cancer or someone stabbed through the heart or even just regrowing a tongue.

But what if this is a sliding scale? If divine breath is just a supercharged normal breath could a normal awakener use their breaths for healing if they visualize a healing process while using that command?

I believe that this method of healing would be a net loss of breaths in nearly every situation as you cant really titrate the amount of breaths you give without storing and shuffling a bunch around (that we know of).To experiment with how many breaths is needed for each wound would be costly I believe. However I can totally imagine a world where an awakener walks around with a bunch of small items infused with various numbers of breaths and they act as a pure healer. Taking the breaths from one item and giving them up. 

I do believe it would have to be used this way as I don't know that there would be any breaths left over once they command was given. I think if a wound took 120 breaths to fully heal and you gave 200 to the person, just like we see with the returned and their divine breath, whatever excess there was would be wasted (however this could be false in that this is a handful of individual breaths and it is possible once the person has been returned to their spiritual ideal the excess breath would be theirs for use or to give back to the healer). Beyond all of this a person with a ton of breaths could use them to heal themselves to an extent and if it is breath sparing and doesnt sap all of them the way it does with divine breath (since it is just 1 supercharged breath) awakeners with access to higher heightening's could totally be commanding themselves to be healed through this method many times throughout a fight. 

Of course this is pure speculation but I have asked myself a few times how healing from Nalthis could be achieved and I think that Vasher shows us that breaths can do way more than we think (Storing memories). I would not be shocked if breath could be used this way... However I would not be shocked if there are WoBs out there outright disproving the possibility either. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[Treamayne]

41 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

While prowling other threads I noticed something mentioned by @alder24 talking about how divine breath is just supercharged regular breaths.

That is Alder's theory, yes

41 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

We know that a divine breath can be used with the same command as a normal breath to perform a miraculous healing. 

Actually we don't know that - the only command we have seen on-page used with a Divine Breath is the "My Breath to Yours" command. The healing is shown to be the side affect of giving that breath to another.

41 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 I would imagine in a way, this would mean that they visualize the command healing the person they are giving their breath away to.

When we saw Lightsong bestow his Divine Breath to Susebron, he didn't need a healing Command or healing Visualization. He bestowed the breath, and the side effect was the healing. That said, WoB has shown that healing should be possible - but only on others, not for yourself. 

Spoiler

vandar10

Could someone with enough Breaths use part of them to heal himself without the help of a Returned?? Could the God King have healed himself without Lightsong with enough knowledge?

Brandon Sanderson

The nature of the Warbreaker magic is tied to the shard of Endowment, which is about giving. There are, therefore, things you cannot do for yourself.

 

[alder24]

52 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Hey everyone. While prowling other threads I noticed something mentioned by @alder24 talking about how divine breath is just supercharged regular breaths. We know that a divine breath can be used with the same command as a normal breath to perform a miraculous healing. Perhaps this is because the returned have grown to accept that this is the only use for their divine breath and that they will die once the command is spoken. But they do have a knowledge that it can be used for this, and I would imagine in a way, this would mean that they visualize the command healing the person they are giving their breath away to.

We know that a divine breath is worth the 5th heightening and thus around 2000 normal breaths and that it can heal anything! The divine breath cannot be used by the recipient for any purpose other than that healing. The entire divine breath is used up when the command is used whether it is curing cancer or someone stabbed through the heart or even just regrowing a tongue.

But what if this is a sliding scale? If divine breath is just a supercharged normal breath could a normal awakener use their breaths for healing if they visualize a healing process while using that command?

I believe that this method of healing would be a net loss of breaths in nearly every situation as you cant really titrate the amount of breaths you give without storing and shuffling a bunch around (that we know of).To experiment with how many breaths is needed for each wound would be costly I believe. However I can totally imagine a world where an awakener walks around with a bunch of small items infused with various numbers of breaths and they act as a pure healer. Taking the breaths from one item and giving them up. 

I do believe it would have to be used this way as I don't know that there would be any breaths left over once they command was given. I think if a wound took 120 breaths to fully heal and you gave 200 to the person, just like we see with the returned and their divine breath, whatever excess there was would be wasted (however this could be false in that this is a handful of individual breaths and it is possible once the person has been returned to their spiritual ideal the excess breath would be theirs for use or to give back to the healer). Beyond all of this a person with a ton of breaths could use them to heal themselves to an extent and if it is breath sparing and doesnt sap all of them the way it does with divine breath (since it is just 1 supercharged breath) awakeners with access to higher heightening's could totally be commanding themselves to be healed through this method many times throughout a fight. 

Of course this is pure speculation but I have asked myself a few times how healing from Nalthis could be achieved and I think that Vasher shows us that breaths can do way more than we think (Storing memories). I would not be shocked if breath could be used this way... However I would not be shocked if there are WoBs out there outright disproving the possibility either. 

Hard question. The nature of Breaths and a Divine Breath is slightly different. The main difference is that a Divine Breath is always turned into kinetic investiture when given and doesn't stick with that person. Breaths seem to be mainly static or innate, I don't know if an Awakened object would count as a kinetic investiture. Normally a Seeker can't sense that so possibly Breaths are always static/innate, not kinetic. They aren't used up or they don't change states/forms - maybe only when you Awaken something and Breaths are flowing into that objects, they count as a kinetic investiture, just like with summoning a Shardblade or breathing in Stormlight. This difference might prevent you from using regular Breaths like a Divine Breath and heal somebody. 

Spoiler

Extesian

Can you give away a Divine Breath to another human? If so would they have the same powers as a Returned or would they just 'store' it like an inanimate object that Breath is stored in when not Awakened? Does a human require a 'crack' in their spirit web to receive a divine Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

So, a Divine Breath-- you're kind of going along the wrong direction on that line of reasoning. Divine Breaths cannot be transferred. When they are used they immediately become kinetic Investiture and are activated. This manifests normally as healing the person, both body, mind, and soul, but you can't give it up, transfer it in the same way you can regular Breaths.

Skype Q&A (Oct. 8, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Would a Seeker know if something's endowed with Breath or if someone was holding it?

Brandon Sanderson

Seekers have a lot of trouble with just detecting Investiture that isn't being used in some way. They could catch Stormlight that you've breathed in, because it's starting to do stuff. If just something has Stormlight, like a gemstone or something like that...

Questioner

I meant from Warbreaker. If you'd endowed like, a large thing with that, could you see that?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, something with Breath, could they find that with a Seeker. That's right. There are theoretical applications of this, but I would say your average Seeker, no. There is a way to get there but if you just took a Seeker from - and said do you - they would not be able to do that.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

 

But there is this one WoB, which talks about Breaths and spiritual ideals - each Breath is a shade of Endowment, the more you have the closer you are to that spiritual deity and ideal. There might be a point (likely 2000 Breaths) where you have enough of them to reach into that spiritual ideal of a human health and heal somebody just like with a Divine Breath. If that's possible I would say you'd need at least 2000 Breaths to heal anything (as you need to break into Spiritual Realm and reach into that ideal which would be kind of like burning Atium with duralumin which allows you to look directly into SR), and of course you can't heal yourself, only somebody else. And you can't Awaken an object to heal someone, as that requires a transfer of Breaths and an Awakened object isn't sentient enough to transfer Breaths, nor does the identity of that object match yours and Breaths it's invested with.

Of course this is a very big IF.

Spoiler

Kurkistan

Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

Brandon Sanderson

Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

Kurkistan

And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so *sounds hesitant* "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

Kurkistan

So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak?

Brandon Sanderson

You are... *LONG pause* You are, um, on the right track.

Kurkistan

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of deity, right?

Kurkistan

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the deity Endowment, correct?

Kurkistan

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is "yes", kind of true, yes.

Kurkistan

But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself-

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes yes exactly.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

Spoiler

vandar10

Could someone with enough Breaths use part of them to heal himself without the help of a Returned?? Could the God King have healed himself without Lightsong with enough knowledge?

Brandon Sanderson

The nature of the Warbreaker magic is tied to the shard of Endowment, which is about giving. There are, therefore, things you cannot do for yourself.

RobotAztec

For healing can Big Breaths heal only one person at a time or can you heal a bunch of people at once?(as long as they are not yourself)?

Brandon Sanderson

Legends say you can heal many.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

 

 

20 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Actually we don't know that - the only command we have seen on-page used with a Divine Breath is the "My Breath to Yours" command. The healing is shown to be the side affect of giving that breath to another.

Actually we do know more can be done with Divine Breaths, but people on Nalthis just don't know that:

Spoiler

Questioner

When you transfer divine Breath, is it possible to have it result in something other than healing?

Brandon Sanderson

Lots of things are possible. Let's just say that that is not something people know how to do, and they have tried to do something else.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

21 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

When we saw Lightsong bestow his Divine Breath to Susebron, he didn't need a healing Command or healing Visualization. He bestowed the breath, and the side effect was the healing.

Intent defined the effect of his Divine Breath.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

37 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

That is Alder's theory, yes

Actually we don't know that - the only command we have seen on-page used with a Divine Breath is the "My Breath to Yours" command. The healing is shown to be the side affect of giving that breath to another.

When we saw Lightsong bestow his Divine Breath to Susebron, he didn't need a healing Command or healing Visualization. He bestowed the breath, and the side effect was the healing. That said, WoB has shown that healing should be possible - but only on others, not for yourself. 

  Hide contents

vandar10

Could someone with enough Breaths use part of them to heal himself without the help of a Returned?? Could the God King have healed himself without Lightsong with enough knowledge?

Brandon Sanderson

The nature of the Warbreaker magic is tied to the shard of Endowment, which is about giving. There are, therefore, things you cannot do for yourself.

 

I wonder if playing with identity could trick that somehow.  I don't know if a returned like Vasher could manipulate identity enough to heal himself but we know he can.  I actually think returned healing is probably possible through use of identity and simply viewing themselves as perfect beings in the first place. It doesn't happen quickly like we see in gold feruchemy or stormlight, but I bet the more you learn to manipulate it and use it the better it would be at closing wounds and returning you to your spiritual ideal. 

As for the visualization, I don't think you would need to type out that they visualize it healing.  That is what is expected and the exact purpose of Lightsong using his breath in that case like @alder24 mentioned. 

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Actually we do know more can be done with Divine Breaths, but people on Nalthis just don't know that:

Very interested to see what could be done with it. How much investiture is being used while lerasium makes a mistborn?  Would a divine breath be capable of bestowing a set of powers to the recipient if that was what was visualized when endowing that amount of raw investiture to someone?  

I had toyed with the idea that 2000 was a magical number to be used.  

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would a divine breath be capable of bestowing a set of powers to the recipient if that was what was visualized when endowing that amount of raw investiture to someone?  

I don't think so, it would be like with trying to transfer it - it just doesn't stick to the person you give it to. But everything that kinetic investiture can do, a Divine Breath might be able to replicate - give somebody a sudden strength boost, or let him peer into SR to see the future or stuff like that, or if the other person is Radiant/Mistborn, you might power his art with a Divine Breath like it was A-nicrosil boosted power.

[Quantus he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Hard question. The nature of Breaths and a Divine Breath is slightly different. The main difference is that a Divine Breath is always turned into kinetic investiture when given and doesn't stick with that person. Breaths seem to be mainly static or innate, I don't know if an Awakened object would count as a kinetic investiture. Normally a Seeker can't sense that so possibly Breaths are always static/innate, not kinetic. They aren't used up or they don't change states/forms - maybe only when you Awaken something and Breaths are flowing into that objects, they count as a kinetic investiture, just like with summoning a Shardblade or breathing in Stormlight. This difference might prevent you from using regular Breaths like a Divine Breath and heal somebody. 

I think they are way more fundamentally different than just that, at a Realmic level. One exists entirely in your body and only occasionally dips into the spiritual realm during actual (kinetic use), while the other is primarily infused onto their soul and is then sticking it back.  Even hemalurgy is going to treat them differently, because they exist in different realms and states.  

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Questioner

With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets?

Brandon Sanderson

So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one.

Bystander

There's still things to decide upon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

And you can't Awaken an object to heal someone, as that requires a transfer of Breaths and an Awakened object isn't sentient enough to transfer Breaths, nor does the identity of that object match yours and Breaths it's invested with.

For a basic Awakening/Command, sure.  I have to think "Heal Others" would be just as viable as "Destroy Evil" for a Type 5 like Nightblood.  You might get a Shardblade like the old Fred Saberhagen "Woundhealer", that passes through solid flesh and heals as it does; the Anti-Shardblade, with some level of Regrowth effect instead of a cutting one.  I assume it would still need a Investiture present for fuel (unlike say Gold Compounding), so it probably wouldnt be free (or even safe).

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Quantus said:

For a basic Awakening/Command, sure.  I have to think "Heal Others" would be just as viable as "Destroy Evil" for a Type 5 like Nightblood.  You might get a Shardblade like the old Fred Saberhagen "Woundhealer", that passes through solid flesh and heals as it does; the Anti-Shardblade, with some level of Regrowth effect instead of a cutting one.  I assume it would still need a Investiture present for fuel (unlike say Gold Compounding), so it probably wouldnt be free (or even safe).

That might work. Not as a Shardblade, as the shape and purpose of the object has a huge impact on the command and Awakening of it, but as a bandaid, syringe or stuff used for medical procedures might be the way to accomplish that. It would certainly require you to feed it with investiture like Nightblood, but instead of keeping all of that inside of it, it would push it into a body to heal wounds.

Spoiler

Questioner

If Vasher and Shashara had Awakened a non-weapon in exactly the same way as Nightblood (say a shield), would the object exhibit the same properties as Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

So, if you said "destroy evil" to a shield... no, it wouldn't be exactly the same. The Command is the most important part of all of this, but the shape, how the weapon perceives itself, how you perceive it, is all gonna play into this. They're playing with some real dangerous stuff when they made Nightblood. And it didn't go as intended.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

That might work. Not as a Shardblade, as the shape and purpose of the object has a huge impact on the command and Awakening of it, but as a bandaid, syringe or stuff used for medical procedures might be the way to accomplish that. It would certainly require you to feed it with investiture like Nightblood, but instead of keeping all of that inside of it, it would push it into a body to heal wounds.

  Hide contents

Questioner

If Vasher and Shashara had Awakened a non-weapon in exactly the same way as Nightblood (say a shield), would the object exhibit the same properties as Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

So, if you said "destroy evil" to a shield... no, it wouldn't be exactly the same. The Command is the most important part of all of this, but the shape, how the weapon perceives itself, how you perceive it, is all gonna play into this. They're playing with some real dangerous stuff when they made Nightblood. And it didn't go as intended.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

Medical scalpel?

 

Honestly the syringe seems the most direct delivery method:  suck in Investiture from a source (probably non-specific sources like night blood) then push it all back into the healing target like a pointy gold metalmind.  Hard to say if it would actually need to pierce the skin to reach the spiritual aspect, like hemalurgy or shardblades.