Another F-Iron question but with awakening?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

F-iron, when tapped in mass, slows the user down. They are saved by the magic to be able to function and not die but they don't gain enough strength per pound tapped to actually keep up with the weight they are gaining and become sluggish and slow. Perhaps this is a large part of why Brandon doesn't see them as great brawlers, because what they gain in weight is offset by their inability to swing it around as efficiently. 

But what if you combined F iron with awakening? 

Would awakened clothes designed to give you strength allow a person to tap hundreds if not thousands of lbs and offset the negative effects of having less strength? If Sazed had been clothed in Vashers awakened clothing would he have been able to sprint around the battlefield even while tapping loads of iron? Instead of just dropping hands and being sluggish could someone like Wax actually utilize all of that weight? 

Wax talks about storing weight so he feels slightly faster or more agile even though we are that storing weight would lower your overall strength a bit. Would wearing Vashers awakened clothing tip the scale to a point where a skimmer could perform far beyond what we see them having been able to do thus far? I have always imagined that A pewter or even tapping F pewter would combine well with F iron for similar reasons, but this seems like a far more permanent solution for both storing and tapping weight. 

[Firesong she/her]

18 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

F-iron, when tapped in mass, slows the user down. They are saved by the magic to be able to function and not die but they don't gain enough strength per pound tapped to actually keep up with the weight they are gaining and become sluggish and slow. Perhaps this is a large part of why Brandon doesn't see them as great brawlers, because what they gain in weight is offset by their inability to swing it around as efficiently. 

But what if you combined F iron with awakening? 

Would awakened clothes designed to give you strength allow a person to tap hundreds if not thousands of lbs and offset the negative effects of having less strength? If Sazed had been clothed in Vashers awakened clothing would he have been able to sprint around the battlefield even while tapping loads of iron? Instead of just dropping hands and being sluggish could someone like Wax actually utilize all of that weight? 

Wax talks about storing weight so he feels slightly faster or more agile even though we are that storing weight would lower your overall strength a bit. Would wearing Vashers awakened clothing tip the scale to a point where a skimmer could perform far beyond what we see them having been able to do thus far? I have always imagined that A pewter or even tapping F pewter would combine well with F iron for similar reasons, but this seems like a far more permanent solution for both storing and tapping weight. 

I will note, one of the reasons F-iron changes speed for Wax is conservation of momentum, wherein mass times velocity stays the same unless more energy is added to the system. So mv = m₁v₁. This means that when he is in motion, pushing himself with steel, he would increase or decrease in velocity based on if he stores or taps. 

But it does make it harder to move in general if you increase by too much, yeah. 

And also, I don't think Awakened Clothes could be made to give strength normally, that would be a very weird use of Awakening, which outside of exceptional circumstances, cannot make something capable of something that is not something it could intrinsically do. Like, you cannot make a Human Lifeless fly with a Command. You could make a scarf generate heat by rubbing against itself, but you cannot just make it suddenly start producing heat. The main exception to this is just the capacity of independent movement at all.

What Vasher did with his clothes was more like, he had them be another force to push off the ground. It didn't directly make him stronger. Iirc. Think spring boots. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Firesong

[Treamayne]

15 minutes ago, Firesong said:

And also, I don't think Awakened Clothes could be made to give strength normally,

Actually, that's pretty much exactly what Vasher's Command does:

Spoiler

Wabreaker Ch 21:

Quote

He knelt down, laying one hand on his trouser leg and one on the stone of the palace.

“Strengthen me,” he Commanded, Breathing. His trouser legs stiffened, and a patch of color bled from the black stone beside him. Black was a color. He’d never considered that before he’d become an Awakener. Tassels hanging at his cuffs stiffened, wrapping around his ankle. With him kneeling as he was, they could also twist around the bottoms of his feet.

<snip>

He tested the strength in his legs, gripping Nightblood, then took a careful step off the side of the palace. He fell some ten feet; the palace was constructed from massive stone blocks in a steep pyramidal shape. He landed hard on the next block, but his Awakened clothing absorbed some of the shock, acting like a second, external set of bones. He stood up, nodding to himself, then jumped down the other pyramid steps.

Wabreaker Ch 49:

Quote

“Upon call,” he said, “become my fingers and grip that which I must.”

The cuff tassels wiggled.

“Wait,” Vivenna said. “What was that? A Command?”

“Too complicated for you,” he said, kneeling and undoing the cuff of his trousers. She could see that here, too, there were extra lengths of cloth. “Become as my legs and give them strength,” he Commanded.

The leg-tassels crossed under his feet, growing tight. Vivenna didn’t argue with his insistence that the Commands were “too complicated.” She just memorized them anyway.

Finally, Vasher threw on his tattered cloak, which was ripped in places. “Protect me,” he Commanded, and she could see a lot of his remaining Breath drain into the cloak. He wrapped his rope belt around his waist—it was thin, for a rope, but strong, and she knew its purpose was not to keep his trousers up.

Finally, he picked up Nightblood. “You coming?”

Wabreaker Ch 56:

Quote

“Your Breath to mine,” he yelled as his momentum slowed. The rope dropped free and he landed on the first block. “Become as my leg and give it strength!” he Commanded, drawing color from the blood on his chest. The rope twisted down, wrapping around his leg and foot as he leaped off. He landed on the next block, one foot down, the coiled rope—and its strange, inhuman muscles—bearing the brunt of the shock.

Four hops and he hit the ground. A group of soldiers stood amidst some bodies at the front gates, looking confused.

 

That said, I'm not sure that it would interact the way the OP wants. If the command were applying strength to the body wearing the clothing (instead of providing strength to do work the body wearing it was doing) then I think the force would tear muscles, ligaments and tendons. The point, as I understood it, was for the awakened clothing to provide the strength to "lift X" or "absorb force Y" - doing work so the muscles under the cloth don't exert themselves. If it is just trying to power the muscles under them the visualization and command had better be spot-on since your first mistake is likely to also be your last mistake. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would awakened clothes designed to give you strength allow a person to tap hundreds if not thousands of lbs and offset the negative effects of having less strength? If Sazed had been clothed in Vashers awakened clothing would he have been able to sprint around the battlefield even while tapping loads of iron? Instead of just dropping hands and being sluggish could someone like Wax actually utilize all of that weight? 

Let me ask you this - can you hold a train in the air just by hanging in on a t-shirt? The answer is no, it would break. You need several solid chains to do so. While an Awakened material can give strength to the Awakener, it doesn't become magically stronger or anything - it's still a regular piece of cloth. I don't think a simple cloth would make any difference if you tap yourself to the level of immobility - too little, too late. If you have Vasher's Awakened clothes and are tapping some mass, it would certainly mitigate the slowing down of your movements, on a smaller scale it would work.

Spoiler

Questioner

(Disclaimers so that you can't say, like, "well if a Shard...") If a regular Awakener, just a mundane Awakener with nothing more than a few hundred Breaths and not any other outside influences, is there some Command they could give a blanket to get the blanket to turn warm? Generate heat; is that a normal thing you can Command?

Brandon Sanderson

Not in just a normal situation. I mean, technically, you could tell the blanket "start rubbing one part against another part" or something like that, or "set yourself on fire," right? But that's not what you're asking. For Awakening to work, you have to work within the intrinsic properties of the matter you're making, except it can move around a bit and with a few little other things it can do.

It's not outside the realm of possibility you could activate those Breaths as Investiture to do something else, but you would need more than just the simple magic system of Awakening. 

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

46 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Let me ask you this - can you hold a train in the air just by hanging in on a t-shirt? The answer is no, it would break. You need several solid chains to do so. While an Awakened material can give strength to the Awakener, it doesn't become magically stronger or anything - it's still a regular piece of cloth. I don't think a simple cloth would make any difference if you tap yourself to the level of immobility - too little, too late. If you have Vasher's Awakened clothes and are tapping some mass, it would certainly mitigate the slowing down of your movements, on a smaller scale it would work.

  Hide contents

Questioner

(Disclaimers so that you can't say, like, "well if a Shard...") If a regular Awakener, just a mundane Awakener with nothing more than a few hundred Breaths and not any other outside influences, is there some Command they could give a blanket to get the blanket to turn warm? Generate heat; is that a normal thing you can Command?

Brandon Sanderson

Not in just a normal situation. I mean, technically, you could tell the blanket "start rubbing one part against another part" or something like that, or "set yourself on fire," right? But that's not what you're asking. For Awakening to work, you have to work within the intrinsic properties of the matter you're making, except it can move around a bit and with a few little other things it can do.

It's not outside the realm of possibility you could activate those Breaths as Investiture to do something else, but you would need more than just the simple magic system of Awakening. 

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

If awakeners were using ropes to lob boulders in the Manywar would this method be that much different? 

I have proved time and time again that I am no physicist so odds are my thought process on this is totally off. 

I figured that a flexible awakened object could do just about anything so long as it was not being told to work beyond its working threshold.  I guess thousands of lbs is a stretch for a lot of materials but we also saw vashers arms toss people as well as the tapestries throwing humans like ragdolls at the end of the book.  Why would it be any different in this case? To have to support and help you move while you are much heavier?  

A physics question... wouldn't doubling your weight with the same speed effectively double the force with which you are able to exert?  (Not trying to reopen that can of worms that says Feruchemical iron doesn't make you hit harder as I simply think that has to be tied to the functional strength changing disproportionately.)  

Anyways. Why is it accepted that cloth can pick up and fling opponents but it would not be able to prop up and give a person aid in all of their own movements?  

[Firesong she/her]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If awakeners were using ropes to lob boulders in the Manywar would this method be that much different? 

I have proved time and time again that I am no physicist so odds are my thought process on this is totally off. 

I figured that a flexible awakened object could do just about anything so long as it was not being told to work beyond its working threshold.  I guess thousands of lbs is a stretch for a lot of materials but we also saw vashers arms toss people as well as the tapestries throwing humans like ragdolls at the end of the book.  Why would it be any different in this case? To have to support and help you move while you are much heavier?  

A physics question... wouldn't doubling your weight with the same speed effectively double the force with which you are able to exert?  (Not trying to reopen that can of worms that says Feruchemical iron doesn't make you hit harder as I simply think that has to be tied to the functional strength changing disproportionately.)  

Anyways. Why is it accepted that cloth can pick up and fling opponents but it would not be able to prop up and give a person aid in all of their own movements?  

Because the idea of throwing a person, and withstanding thousands of pounds of force, is pretty extreme. We aren't saying it can't aid people in other movements, it can. But what you are talking about is something in a completely separate ballpark.  

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

Because the idea of throwing a person, and withstanding thousands of pounds of force, is pretty extreme. We aren't saying it can't aid people in other movements, it can. But what you are talking about is something in a completely separate ballpark.  

Perhaps my using Wax and Sazed as examples was poor in that they both seem to tap massive amounts of weight all the time. I had mentioned thousands of lbs thinking more like a couple of thousands not 10s or more.  

If Shardplate weights 1400lbs I think this would be a decent target weight.  

Could awakened ropes and cloth aid in transporting and act like legs or arms for a person in a set of shardplate that has locked up due to lack of stormlight?  (Perhaps locked up is a poor term as I envisioned that it could still be used and moved around in if it weren't for it weighing 1400 lbs).  

In this case though, the Skimmer is actually still able to move themselves.  We don't have a ton of data to back up how much they can move themselves when 7x their normal size but we do know that Sazed was able to move sluggishly when he was bracing the gates to the city even.  

2 inch ratchet straps have working loads double that 1400lbs that shardplate weighs in at.  Wouldn't a 16 foot ratchet strap or two or 4 commanded to strengthen you be able to withstand those weights?  

Spoiler

little_wilson

Mi'chelle is wanting to know for a fanfic she's wanting to write if when you cut/break an object that has been Awakened if the object then "dies", or if the pieces will try to carry out the command. Also, either way, can the breaths be recovered from it?

Brandon Sanderson

The object does not die, and will try to continue its purpose. The level of damage will determine just how well it can continue. The Breaths are recoverable. (Though there could be some loss of Breaths, depending on how the item is destroyed.) There's a scene near the end where Vasher Awakens some clothing, then it gets cut down and he recovers the Breath.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

This WoB mentioned even shredded cloth trying to carry out their commands. Wouldn't something with a higher working load be able to do more with the breath?  Better to awaken a strap that can withstand thousands of lbs or force than a string that can withstand just a few lbs of force?   That said I am not against the idea that it costs more breaths to awaken something with a higher working load either though I am not sure how accurate that is. 

If there is a command to be like fingers and hands where the objects know what you are reaching for to extend your reach why wouldn't it be able to act like your legs and carry you where you want to go?  Like straight up a backpack of eight 16-foot long 2 inch ratchet straps all being awakened and make an awakened version of Doc Ock.  Climbing things and grabbing things and anchoring their 2000lb Skimmer when needed.  

If it works like a yoke for horses or oxen you actually get far more working load out of combining multiple straps.  Even negating what unnatural materials we have and going back to 100% natural ropes you could accomplish this with a few 1inch ropes.  1 inch hemp and cotton ropes have working loads of 500+lbs with far far higher tensile strength pushing past the 2000lb mark.  The spider/ doc ock approach could be made with ropes as well then. 

I agree you would probably wouldn't be negating those issues at 10s of thousands of lbs.  Perhaps you couldn't negate it past 5000 lbs but I feel like the working loads and tensile strength of the materials you are awakening would be the limiting factor to how much you could tap and get effectiveness.  Maybe just throwing yourself around as Doc Ock while tapping weight would be better.  

@alder24

I'm looking at some fall force stuff on a logging website and it seems like for every 1 ft fallen you just get a ftlb or whatever.  So if Vasher weighs 200lbs and falls 10 feet he is landing with 2000ft/lbs of force?  So his awakened clothing added the needed structure to his legs to not snap under that force?  Do you think this would translate across with the working and tensile strength of the cloth being used?  I imagine a longer length of rope to spring and catch the falls would be better for absorbing energy but wouldn't the type of cloth make a difference as well?

I would also be curious in how this would work against the body.  

Vin needed duralumin pewter to protect herself from some of her steel pushes.  Wax only had iron for his feats.  Becoming such a large anchor also seems to have protected him in a way from some of his pushes.  I imagine an iron compounders body would, likewise, not be torn apart when iron pulling massive objects as the magic would protect them from it.  Could a Skimmer tapping very large amounts of weight become an anchor for these high working load limbs to do their work?  If someone tapped 10s or even 100s of thousands of lbs and stood still with these high load ropes wouldn't the iron feruchemy allow them to be an anchor for slinging boulders weighing in the 100s-1000s of lbs range?  

I know that acting as a lever says that the body would be supporting a portion of that... however iron protects the user to not breakdown and die even when tapping potential millions of lbs at once so wouldn't tapping far beyond what is needed give the structure and stability that would be necessary for an inch thick rope to toss a 500lb rock... we don't see Vashers body take any damage when his shirt throws men around. I may have read it wrong but I definately pictured these enemies to be thrown further than what his own body would be capable of tossing them on its own. 

 

[therunner he/him]

6 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I'm looking at some fall force stuff on a logging website and it seems like for every 1 ft fallen you just get a ftlb or whatever.  So if Vasher weighs 200lbs and falls 10 feet he is landing with 2000ft/lbs of force?  So his awakened clothing added the needed structure to his legs to not snap under that force?  Do you think this would translate across with the working and tensile strength of the cloth being used?  I imagine a longer length of rope to spring and catch the falls would be better for absorbing energy but wouldn't the type of cloth make a difference as well?

Not alder, but I will point out that there is difference between how much material can compress to absorb e.g. fall , and how well will the material behave under tension.

Cloth can be compressed relatively well, so Awakened clothing will absorb shock from the wall relatively well.
However, cloth can be torn with human strength, so cloth will not be able to handle tension very well, e.g. it won't help you lift heavy objects.

At least, that would be my understanding of it.
 

Quote

Vin needed duralumin pewter to protect herself from some of her steel pushes.  Wax only had iron for his feats. 

Vin needed duralumin pewter to protect against duralumin steel, and no other pushes (since duralumin enhances all the metals you are burning, you could not do it any other way).

Wax never achieved such levels of power (outside of BoM), and hence did not need protection.
And if I remember right, the one 'great' feat of destruction with A-Steel, was when he destroyed that one building, however there he was on top of it, so the building had to bear his entire weight (or to be more precise, the nails in the construction of the building had to). Since F-Iron protects user against crushing themselves with the mass, it did the same thing there.
 

Quote

I know that acting as a lever says that the body would be supporting a portion of that... however iron protects the user to not breakdown and die even when tapping potential millions of lbs at once so wouldn't tapping far beyond what is needed give the structure and stability that would be necessary for an inch thick rope to toss a 500lb rock

It would not, because the thick rope now has to work against the millions of lbs of the body/arm as well.
The awakened rope is not part of your body, so to it, you are incredibly heavy, and it cannot really move the arm, so it cannot enhance it in any way.

Edited July 11, 2023 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

Not alder, but I will point out that there is difference between how much material can compress to absorb e.g. fall , and how well will the material behave under tension.

Cloth can be compressed relatively well, so Awakened clothing will absorb shock from the wall relatively well.
However, cloth can be torn with human strength, so cloth will not be able to handle tension very well, e.g. it won't help you lift heavy objects.

At least, that would be my understanding of it.

I guess that this is where my confusion is.  We don't just see the cloth absorb fall damage.  We also see clothing be commanded directly to fight and act as a meat shield for Vasher with the corpse of a man he had killed still in it.  The clothing not only supported the corpse but also moved and fought using it for structure.  

I agree that cloth can be torn or whatever and it may well be a matter of what kind of cloth is being used but as I mentioned there are fabrics available that should be able to handle tension well.  The ratchet straps are a perfect example of cloth that is stretched and held at extremely high rates of tension.  

That is why I revised my vision slightly to include a possible Doc Ock awakener.  I really really like f iron and think that awakening arms to throw that kind of weight around would be awesome... but as soon as my mind went to Doc Ock I started imagining all of the bonkers things a zinc compounder could do with awakening.  Not only do they have the bonus witt to negotiate or interigate with but they have the emotional manipulation benefits.  Not only do I think they would be fairly proficient at amassing breaths but I think they would be incredible scholars of what is possible with awakening if they had the breaths... combine it with the 6th heightening for instinctive awakening.

But back to my original thought process of overcoming the inability to efficiently move and use the added weight from iron, do you have any thoughts on what could be awakened to aid with that?  Do you think there is anything that could overcome the weight?  Or do you think that the weight stopping a Skimmer from moving normally is beyond the 7x normal mark?  

I know there is a huge difference between increasing weight from 200lbs to 1400lbs and something like going from 200lbs to 14,000lbs or even 140,000 or 1,400,000lbs.  I think iron stores so quickly and is shown to be able to be tapped so quickly that we have seen very few instances where someone taps a few times their weight only.  I really think most f iron we see is tapped in magnitudes of more than 100x normal vs just a few under 10x normal.  So perhaps the Skimmer wouldn't need that much support and help moving like normal anyways at those weights but a person that size with that kind of weight body checking people could be insanely effective. 

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I guess that this is where my confusion is.  We don't just see the cloth absorb fall damage.  We also see clothing be commanded directly to fight and act as a meat shield for Vasher with the corpse of a man he had killed still in it.  The clothing not only supported the corpse but also moved and fought using it for structure.  

No, clothes Vasher Awakened had torn themself free from the corps and were fighting using a sword (which would weigh less than 1 kg), Warbreaker ch 56:

Quote

A sword flashed in the air, blocking a weapon that would have hit Vasher. The dead man’s shirt and trousers, having pulled themselves free, stood holding a blade. They struck, as if controlled by an invisible person inside, blocking and attacking with skill.

For absorbing a fall damage we have a rope, acting something like a spring on Vasher's leg - and the fall wasn't from that high (3rd floor, but possibly taller than today's floors), without it he would likely break his legs but survive, ch 56:

Quote

“Become as my leg and give it strength!” he Commanded, drawing color from the blood on his chest. The rope twisted down, wrapping around his leg and foot as he leaped off. He landed on the next block, one foot down, the coiled rope—and its strange, inhuman muscles—bearing the brunt of the shock.
Four hops and he hit the ground.

 

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

That is why I revised my vision slightly to include a possible Doc Ock awakener. 

It's possible (under normal weight). We constantly see ropes, banners or cloaks pulling people up in Warbreaker. Making 4 Awakened scarfs acting like legs would be very doable, and even useful.

 

Overall such ropes or clothing would help you to move faster when tapping a low to moderate amount of weight, mitigating the unwanted effects of F-iron, but as said by therunner, tension is different than compression, material would eventually snap if you were to weigh too much. You could increase the amount of ropes (ropes would be better under tension than clothes), but there is another problem - ropes would cut into your body trying to pull heavy limbs of yours, which would cause lots of damage. More ropes would help to spread weight around lessening how much each rope would cut into your body, but with lots of tapped weight, you would need lots of ropes, which would cover you whole (which possibly would tighten your chest too much preventing you from taking a breath). That isn't sustainable on a greater scale.

For a Shardplate, I suspect Vasher's clothing would not allow you to move in the locked plate as fast as normal humans can - it would still slow you down, but that's more than 600 kg on both of your legs, 300 kg for each - regular trousers might be too weak and tear under that tension. If they can survive that, they might add something, but not enough for the plate to move at human speeds. Ropes would be better, but again, there is so much tension that they would block the blood flow into your limbs. That's not a good thing.

Overall this idea, while it's useful on a lower scale, has severe limitations the more weight you try to handle, with high risks of injury. However on a lower scale of F-iron, you aren't slowed down that much, so Awakened clothes might perform even worse in fighting than with no mass increase (as they're using most of their energy to pull lots of mass, instead of being faster).

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

No, clothes Vasher Awakened had torn themself free from the corps and were fighting using a sword (which would weigh less than 1 kg), Warbreaker ch 56:

For absorbing a fall damage we have a rope, acting something like a spring on Vasher's leg - and the fall wasn't from that high (3rd floor, but possibly taller than today's floors), without it he would likely break his legs but survive, ch 56:

 

It's possible (under normal weight). We constantly see ropes, banners or cloaks pulling people up in Warbreaker. Making 4 Awakened scarfs acting like legs would be very doable, and even useful.

 

Overall such ropes or clothing would help you to move faster when tapping a low to moderate amount of weight, mitigating the unwanted effects of F-iron, but as said by therunner, tension is different than compression, material would eventually snap if you were to weigh too much. You could increase the amount of ropes (ropes would be better under tension than clothes), but there is another problem - ropes would cut into your body trying to pull heavy limbs of yours, which would cause lots of damage. More ropes would help to spread weight around lessening how much each rope would cut into your body, but with lots of tapped weight, you would need lots of ropes, which would cover you whole (which possibly would tighten your chest too much preventing you from taking a breath). That isn't sustainable on a greater scale.

For a Shardplate, I suspect Vasher's clothing would not allow you to move in the locked plate as fast as normal humans can - it would still slow you down, but that's more than 600 kg on both of your legs, 300 kg for each - regular trousers might be too weak and tear under that tension. If they can survive that, they might add something, but not enough for the plate to move at human speeds. Ropes would be better, but again, there is so much tension that they would block the blood flow into your limbs. That's not a good thing.

Overall this idea, while it's useful on a lower scale, has severe limitations the more weight you try to handle, with high risks of injury. However on a lower scale of F-iron, you aren't slowed down that much, so Awakened clothes might perform even worse in fighting than with no mass increase (as they're using most of their energy to pull lots of mass, instead of being faster).

Oh man.  I totally misremembered that scene.  Thanks for the clarification.  So clothes are probably out for that purpose beyond just a slight boost. The ropes or straps would most likely be the best for moving you around but you would need to create some sort of harness for them to prevent them from constricting you to death in the process.  Perhaps a bit to bulky, and as you pointed out using too much of the investiture to move your mass for the hope of a little bit more weight to throw around when instead you could weave the ropes through and around some aluminum chains and have Doc Ock arms that can act as shardblade proof shields as well as heavy metal weapons to swing around.  Put a large dagger or heavy ball at the end of each rope and make your Doc Ock arms each into their own deadly weapons. 

While I love F iron my favorite part of it is the fall damage reduction.  Trying to find actual practical uses for the tapping without access to allomantic steel or iron is a pain.  And the Doc Ock arms would give you 4 additional springs to stop fall damage plus whatever your awakened clothing / smaller diameter ropes around the legs would give you. I imagine you could take a pretty decent fall with that suit. 

[Duxredux he/him]

Just use whatever Wax's boots are made of. Those things don't split out even when he weighs enough to crush paving stones.

There's definitely stuff a Skimmer could do with a bunch of Breath, but running around on legs or ropes while weighing thousands of pounds isn't a particularly efficient use of Feruchemy anyway. It seems like the Set in general and not just Edwarn were not very good with Feruchemy, where fighters will tap strength and just lumber around rather than only tapping in bursts like we see Wax use his weight. Doc Ock throws around people and cars without weighing as much as a truck by using his other arms to brace himself or to provide additional torque, not by using his flimsy body as the fulcrum. Reducing the weight on the arms by 100-200 pounds should let them move a bit faster, but what the arms would let you do is move much more nimbly and, well, position yourself for the ultimate finishing move of sitting, stepping, or jumping on someone while tapping several tons, restraining your target if necessary. F- Iron is weird, Wax's body should crush itself or his arms should ripped from his sockets when he taps a lot of weight while standing, but it doesn't, nor does his feet get hurt while crushing stone beneath him. Get some special shoes that have a squat metal spike or blade on the sole, and you should be able to do a lot of damage by landing on someone while tapping weight, probably even to Plate if you're willing to tap a lot of weight to take out the person with the soul-reaping Blade. Before anyone cites Dalinar catching and lifting a chasmfiend as evidence of the loadbearing capacity of a prepared Shardbearer, I'll remind that chasmfiends basically float or fly from a mathematical standpoint due to spren bonds and are not anywhere close to as heavy as their size would suggest.

For that matter, while tapping that much weight the Skimmer should be Invested and at least somewhat resistant to Investiture based attacks, like a Windrunner attempting to Lash them or Soulcaster transforming them on contact. Not sure if it would help enough though. A Skimmer Windrunner could be scary and could pull off some flying kicks to punch through buildings, even without Plate.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

37 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Just use whatever Wax's boots are made of. Those things don't split out even when he weighs enough to crush paving stones.

There's definitely stuff a Skimmer could do with a bunch of Breath, but running around on legs or ropes while weighing thousands of pounds isn't a particularly efficient use of Feruchemy anyway. It seems like the Set in general and not just Edwarn were not very good with Feruchemy, where fighters will tap strength and just lumber around rather than only tapping in bursts like we see Wax use his weight. Doc Ock throws around people and cars without weighing as much as a truck by using his other arms to brace himself or to provide additional torque, not by using his flimsy body as the fulcrum. Reducing the weight on the arms by 100-200 pounds should let them move a bit faster, but what the arms would let you do is move much more nimbly and, well, position yourself for the ultimate finishing move of sitting, stepping, or jumping on someone while tapping several tons, restraining your target if necessary. F- Iron is weird, Wax's body should crush itself or his arms should ripped from his sockets when he taps a lot of weight while standing, but it doesn't, nor does his feet get hurt while crushing stone beneath him. Get some special shoes that have a squat metal spike or blade on the sole, and you should be able to do a lot of damage by landing on someone while tapping weight, probably even to Plate if you're willing to tap a lot of weight to take out the person with the soul-reaping Blade. Before anyone cites Dalinar catching and lifting a chasmfiend as evidence of the loadbearing capacity of a prepared Shardbearer, I'll remind that chasmfiends basically float or fly from a mathematical standpoint due to spren bonds and are not anywhere close to as heavy as their size would suggest.

For that matter, while tapping that much weight the Skimmer should be Invested and at least somewhat resistant to Investiture based attacks, like a Windrunner attempting to Lash them or Soulcaster transforming them on contact. Not sure if it would help enough though. A Skimmer Windrunner could be scary and could pull off some flying kicks to punch through buildings, even without Plate.

I like the idea that iron would be investing the user.  Though would it be very apparent how much so if our skimmer/awakener is already at a mid tier heightening?  3-6 ish?  

We dont have much to show for it but I am curious what heightenings worth of investiture a radiant is when holding a breath of stormlight.  

I know that someone like the Godking should be just about impervious to invested attacks on himself (though using investitue to attack him in a physical way would work).  

I like the idea of the arms flinging you around and then just tapping for crushing grappling attacks. You could probably screw with the preservation of momentum quite well with some Doc Ock style rope arms.  

I did take this idea even further last night thinking about how you could un fray the 3 parts of the end of your ropes and tie it off anywhere to turn 1 long rope arm into a long rope arm and 3 totally flexible fingers. Now you have hands as well.  Afix some aluminum caps on them (could shave down into pointed / bladed caps) and you have the benefits of fingers.  Each arm could be adorned with some other weapon or function even (though in true Doc Ock style I think some slightly pointed caps would do the best).  

 

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

For that matter, while tapping that much weight the Skimmer should be Invested and at least somewhat resistant to Investiture based attacks, like a Windrunner attempting to Lash them or Soulcaster transforming them on contact.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I like the idea that iron would be investing the user.  Though would it be very apparent how much so if our skimmer/awakener is already at a mid tier heightening?  3-6 ish?  

Not really. Yes, they're invested because they're Ferrings (that connection invests them a lot), but Scadrial is a low invested world, there isn't a lot of investiture in a metalmind (a full metalmind is only moderately invested, while Shardblade/Shardplates are highly invested). Kaladin, as a Radiant, is as invested as Mistborn and that's without additional Stormlight in his body - Kaladin was still Lashed by Fused in OB with almost no resistance. IIRC Kaladin Lashed Fused as well if not Lashing other Radiants can be done with no problems. Skimmer's metalmind would provide almost no investiture compared to what he already has - not enough to resist Lashing or Soulcasting noticeably more, and definitely not even near 1st Heightening (I doubt tapping everything at once from a full metalmind would be worth more than a single Breath - diminishing returns).

Just think, high Heightenings produce a noticeable aura around that person (even for somebody with only a single Breath - Siri was able to see the aura of the leading priest) - if tapping metalminds would invested that much, Wax, Wayne or Sazed doing that would also create noticeable effects - they don't, Rysn does but she is a Dawnshard (which kind of suggest that even a Dawnshard is less invested than 50000 Breaths, as she isn't a walking prism like Susebron).

Spoiler

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

Questioner

Is a Mistborn Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

The Mistborn, while they're burning the metal. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no.

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

Questioner

Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body.

[...]

Questioner

How about a metalmind that is full?

Brandon Sanderson

That is full? That is going to be middle of the realm of the, yeah. Generally easier than, for instance, a Shardblade which is going to be very hard.

[...]

Brandon Sanderson

Shardplate and Blade are very hard. Blade is probably gonna be a little harder.

[...]

Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

 

Spoiler

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not really. Yes, they're invested because they're Ferrings (that connection invests them a lot), but Scadrial is a low invested world, there isn't a lot of investiture in a metalmind (a full metalmind is only moderately invested, while Shardblade/Shardplates are highly invested). Kaladin, as a Radiant, is as invested as Mistborn and that's without additional Stormlight in his body - Kaladin was still Lashed by Fused in OB with almost no resistance. IIRC Kaladin Lashed Fused as well if not Lashing other Radiants can be done with no problems. Skimmer's metalmind would provide almost no investiture compared to what he already has - not enough to resist Lashing or Soulcasting noticeably more, and definitely not even near 1st Heightening (I doubt tapping everything at once from a full metalmind would be worth more than a single Breath - diminishing returns).

Just think, high Heightenings produce a noticeable aura around that person (even for somebody with only a single Breath - Siri was able to see the aura of the leading priest) - if tapping metalminds would invested that much, Wax, Wayne or Sazed doing that would also create noticeable effects - they don't, Rysn does but she is a Dawnshard (which kind of suggest that even a Dawnshard is less invested than 50000 Breaths, as she isn't a walking prism like Susebron).

  Reveal hidden contents

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

Questioner

Is a Mistborn Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

The Mistborn, while they're burning the metal. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no.

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

Questioner

Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body.

[...]

Questioner

How about a metalmind that is full?

Brandon Sanderson

That is full? That is going to be middle of the realm of the, yeah. Generally easier than, for instance, a Shardblade which is going to be very hard.

[...]

Brandon Sanderson

Shardplate and Blade are very hard. Blade is probably gonna be a little harder.

[...]

Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

 

  Hide contents

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

Yeah I knew I had read that.  It seems like the innate investiture vs the kinetic investiture are plainly obvious in this.  While breathing in stormlight I would have thought that radiants were some of the most invested beings and that is why they can do such ludicrous feats.  But this appears to hint that they are simply using investiture and are not themselves that invested.  The biochromatic breaths are so stuck to their user than other forms of investiture that it makes sense for this difference.  

I think this leads to an interesting question.  Which is worse?  To have your investiture stolen by hemalurgy and be left alive like we see in TLM or to become a drab?  I don't know which one would be more sickly and feel less than but I know that the drab starts with soooo much more investiture that when it is given away it must be horrible.  

Kaladin was asked what heightening he was in OB, though I don't remember if he was holding any stormlight at the time.  Certainly being the 3rd oath was enough to make him recognizable to someone... but how much did he really have?  I am not convinced the questioner was of the 1st heightening themselves and could have instead just been noticing an aura of some kind right?  Drabs were noticeably different even to someone with their single native breath. 

I wonder how much of the aura is just a trick that Nalthians are used to playing with.  Vasher doesn't seem to be worried about being noticed, nor does Vivenna. Maybe they are just storing their breaths in items?  But then is Vivenna returned now or something?  How is she both hiding her aura and benefiting from the agelessness? I thought for sure the 5th heightening aura would be plainly obvious to everyone everywhere... but not on Roshar?  Or perhaps it is simply highly recognizable on Nalthis because of everyone's upbringing, like speaking a different language and catching/ recognizing accents.  

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But this appears to hint that they are simply using investiture and are not themselves that invested.

They're invested while having Stormlight or burning metals - first WoB in my previous point supports this and that's how Savants are made. But compared to a soul this isn't that much.

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think this leads to an interesting question.  Which is worse?  To have your investiture stolen by hemalurgy and be left alive like we see in TLM or to become a drab?

Spikes are worse: 

Spoiler

Volratho

If someone was tapping gold, would spiking a separate ability out of them kill them? Or would it work at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to spike someone without killing them. But they'd never be the same. It would be worse than being a drab.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

 

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Kaladin was asked what heightening he was in OB, though I don't remember if he was holding any stormlight at the time.  Certainly being the 3rd oath was enough to make him recognizable to someone... but how much did he really have?  I am not convinced the questioner was of the 1st heightening themselves and could have instead just been noticing an aura of some kind right?  Drabs were noticeably different even to someone with their single native breath. 

That wasn't because of noticeable aura of effect around him, but because he touch the Fortune sphere of Riino (he's an Elantrian), which works only for people who are invested - at that point in time the most common invested individuals were from Nalthis, because of Breaths, but he quickly realized that Kaladin is a Radiant and a new Desolation has started. OB:

Quote

“Here now,” the man said as Kaladin stepped forward, “don’t touch that. It’s only for properly trained fo—”

[...]

“—rtune seers like myself. You’ll ruin it, or…” He trailed off, then took Kaladin’s head, turning it toward him. “You saw something!”
Kaladin nodded weakly.
“How? Impossible. Unless … you’re Invested. What Heightening are you?” He squinted at Kaladin. “No. Something else. Merciful Domi … A Surgebinder? It has begun again?”

 

15 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I wonder how much of the aura is just a trick that Nalthians are used to playing with.  Vasher doesn't seem to be worried about being noticed, nor does Vivenna. Maybe they are just storing their breaths in items? 

Auras of people below 5th Heightening aren't that easily noticeable, you must know what to look for to see them. People on Roshar just don't know about it, don't look for it, and are generally in less color intense areas (everything is made out of boring stone).

But you can hide regular Breaths just like Divine Breaths:

Spoiler

Mark

It was said throughout the book that you cannot just give some of your breath, but must give all of it. Perhaps I'm simply forgetting part of the book where this changes, but wouldn't Vasher have to give his Returned breath along with his others?

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

Vasher has learned to suppress his Returned Breath. When it's suppressed, it's as if it doesn't exist to him. He's Invested it into a place within himself, much like you can Invest your Breaths into a shirt, and when he gives away the rest of his Breaths, he doesn't give that one away. He could split off others of his Breaths if he wanted to—he's learned to do that, so that he could give a few Breaths and not all. It's just a matter of practicing as long as he has. But even people who aren't as practiced as him do it all the time when they Invest an object with not all of their Breath but just enough to bring it to life

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

Warbreaker ch 40:

Quote

Her hair hadn’t changed colors, at least not discernibly. She glanced at Treledees, trying to figure out what was wrong. She noticed something interesting. In a circle around Treledees, the grass seemed just a shade more colorful.
Breath, she thought. Of course he’d have it! He’s one of the most powerful men in the kingdom.

Treledees was most likely at least at 3rd Heightening and it only manifested as a very slight, barely noticeable color change. 

It is however very noticeable when Nightblood was used - OB:

Quote

Szeth undid the clasp on the sword and drew it.
A rushing sound, like a thousand screams.
A wave of power, like the beating of a terrible, stunning wind.
Colors changed around him. They deepened, growing darker and more vibrant. The city nobleman’s cloak became a stunning array of deep oranges and blood reds.

 

29 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But then is Vivenna returned now or something?  How is she both hiding her aura and benefiting from the agelessness?

No. Who said she is ageless? There are different ways to achieve agelessness, some very common among worldhoppers.

Spoiler

Dirigible (paraphrased)

Did Demoux achieve immortality by manipulating his Connection age?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Demoux uses the same method as most of the Seventeenth Shard. That method slows aging by a lot, but doesn't stop it completely.

Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

They're invested while having Stormlight or burning metals - first WoB in my previous point supports this and that's how Savants are made. But compared to a soul this isn't that much.

Spikes are worse: 

  Hide contents

Volratho

If someone was tapping gold, would spiking a separate ability out of them kill them? Or would it work at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to spike someone without killing them. But they'd never be the same. It would be worse than being a drab.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

 

That wasn't because of noticeable aura of effect around him, but because he touch the Fortune sphere of Riino (he's an Elantrian), which works only for people who are invested - at that point in time the most common invested individuals were from Nalthis, because of Breaths, but he quickly realized that Kaladin is a Radiant and a new Desolation has started. OB:

 

Auras of people below 5th Heightening aren't that easily noticeable, you must know what to look for to see them. People on Roshar just don't know about it, don't look for it, and are generally in less color intense areas (everything is made out of boring stone).

But you can hide regular Breaths just like Divine Breaths:

  Hide contents

Mark

It was said throughout the book that you cannot just give some of your breath, but must give all of it. Perhaps I'm simply forgetting part of the book where this changes, but wouldn't Vasher have to give his Returned breath along with his others?

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

Vasher has learned to suppress his Returned Breath. When it's suppressed, it's as if it doesn't exist to him. He's Invested it into a place within himself, much like you can Invest your Breaths into a shirt, and when he gives away the rest of his Breaths, he doesn't give that one away. He could split off others of his Breaths if he wanted to—he's learned to do that, so that he could give a few Breaths and not all. It's just a matter of practicing as long as he has. But even people who aren't as practiced as him do it all the time when they Invest an object with not all of their Breath but just enough to bring it to life

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

Warbreaker ch 40:

Treledees was most likely at least at 3rd Heightening and it only manifested as a very slight, barely noticeable color change. 

It is however very noticeable when Nightblood was used - OB:

 

No. Who said she is ageless? There are different ways to achieve agelessness, some very common among worldhoppers.

  Hide contents

Dirigible (paraphrased)

Did Demoux achieve immortality by manipulating his Connection age?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Demoux uses the same method as most of the Seventeenth Shard. That method slows aging by a lot, but doesn't stop it completely.

Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)

 

Thanks for these WoBs and quotes.  I couldn't fully remember that interaction with Kaladin.  

I guess I just didn't think of Vivenna having a different kind of agelessness.  I sort of figured it had to be thanks to breaths since I didn't notice her being a part of any other faction of world hoppers.  I thought she was on a solo mission of her own making.  

I guess it is possible that even the 3rd or 4th heightening could be adding a few hundred years.  If 50 breaths adds a decade or so I imagine by the time you have hit 500 or 1000 breaths you would be adding centuries before finally hitting agelessness.  And I think it is totally possible that that curve is far more exponential than it is linear because how do you get agelessness from any amount of breaths if it is truly linear?   It could just be that according to their records.  I guess even returned might have a timelimit of sorts but we just won't know about it with only a book or two.  What's a decade to centuries?  What are centuries to millenia?  What are millenia to agelessness?  

So holding stormlight does invest you but I feel like it is different.  I know we don't have figures so a sliding scale is impossible but I wish I could see how much kinetic investiture would need to be held by Kaladin in order for him to be considered as invested as the God King... if it is even possible.  Yet we see that investiture act so incredibly different.