The significance of Yumi’s story and the future of fabrials (Yumi spoilers)

[Marabout]

So we know that prior to the shroud, Yumi was a yoki-hijo, an individual Invested by her world’s Spirits.  This allowed her to attract Spirits and ask them to Change.  And the result was what looks alarmingly like a conjoined fabrial.

Now I know that Roshar is a different world with different rules, but the similarities to Spren being used to create conjoined fabrials is obvious.  The only difference is that Yumi doesn’t have to trap them first in a gemstone.

We know that Navani wants to continue creating fabrials but that The Sibling does not agree with her methods of trapping Spren.  But now we can assume that Spren can be convinced to form fabrials if convinced by an Invested individual.  This forms another parallel with Soulcasters who can convince objects to Change.  It wouldn’t be too much of a leap now to theorize that Soulcasters can convince Spren to become conjoined fabrials or even fabrials in general.

Thoughts?

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Marabout

[Treamayne]

18 minutes ago, Marabout said:

Spoiler

So we know that prior to the shroud, Yumi was a yoki-hijo, an individual Invested by her world’s Spirits.  This allowed her to attract Spirits and ask them to Change.  And the result was what looks alarmingly like a conjoined fabrial.

Now I know that Roshar is a different world with different rules, but the similarities to Spren being used to create conjoined fabrials is obvious.  The only difference is that Yumi doesn’t have to trap them first in a gemstone.

We know that Navani wants to continue creating fabrials but that The Sibling does not agree with her methods of trapping Spren.  But now we can assume that Spren can be convinced to form fabrials if convinced by an Invested individual.  This forms another parallel with Soulcasters who can convince objects to Change.  It wouldn’t be too much of a leap now to theorize that Soulcasters can convince Spren to become conjoined fabrials or even fabrials in general.

Thoughts?

 

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[Marabout]

This is a Roshar topic referring to another book and I tagged it as per the guideline you just quoted. 
 

“If in a book specific forum or channel, you wish to refer to another series please use spoiler markup or, if appropriate, move to a full spoiler channel. A reference to what the spoiler is related to, should also be included. (eg. OB (SPOILER))”

If I am reading that wrong, my apologies.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Marabout said:

This is a Roshar topic referring to another book and I tagged it as per the guideline you just quoted. 
If I am reading that wrong, my apologies.

The Stormlight Archive section is for Stormlight Archive only - This, outside of the spoiler period, would most appropriately go in Cosmere discussion (two or more Shardworlds). Since all content from SP3 (Cosmere Spoilers) will be moved to that location after the spoiler preiod, it is most appropriate in that spoiler area.

Quote

“If in a book specific forum or channel, you wish to refer to another series please use spoiler markup or, if appropriate, move to a full spoiler channel. A reference to what the spoiler is related to, should also be included. (eg. OB (SPOILER))”

That's the general area, if you continued reading into the "Forum" area (also quoted and linked above) you would see where it says that new book content should remain in the Spoiler area unless absolutely necessary during the spoiler period. But that's fine, I just reported to the Mods and they can move the thread if they think that is in the best interest of meeting the policy's Intent.

That said:

2 hours ago, Marabout said:

We know that Navani wants to continue creating fabrials but that The Sibling does not agree with her methods of trapping Spren.  But now we can assume that Spren can be convinced to form fabrials if convinced by an Invested individual.  This forms another parallel with Soulcasters who can convince objects to Change.  It wouldn’t be too much of a leap now to theorize that Soulcasters can convince Spren to become conjoined fabrials or even fabrials in general.

We already knew that "ancient fabrials" were Spren manifesting as a fabrial (RoW Ch 46) - but the implications for Conjoined Fabrials are almost as great as the idea that such a sacrifice may be negotiated with a time limit. If it was difficult to get a spren to become a Soulcaster (or other Fabrial) because it was permanent, and that could instead be done as a temporary Physical manifestation then experimentation, research and developement all become far easier as the story progresses.

[Argent he/him]

The intent is to allow brief mentions from other series, where appropriate, behind spoiler tags. Such much of this topic's subject relies in knowledge of what happens in Yumi, it is better suited for the Yumi & Cosmere spoiler board. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

I wonder how Yumi would interact with Spren. Could she turn Spren into Hijo-esque Fabrials too?

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I wonder how Yumi would interact with Spren. Could she turn Spren into Hijo-esque Fabrials too?

Ooh, now that would be interesting. Maybe she could by-pass the gemstone aspect of the Rosharan fabirals?

Fascinating stuff.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

Just now, Werewolff Studios said:

Ooh, now that would be interesting. Maybe she could by-pass the gemstone aspect of the Rosharan fabirals?

Fascinating stuff.

I'd imagine so. Unfortunate that she never tried combining Nightmare Painting with her Yoki-Hijo abilities. I can only dream how epic that would be, painting a Nightmare into a harmless form before binding it to create a Fabrial. It would definitely be easy, what with the lack of Identity on the part of the Nightmares. 

[Treamayne]

On 7/13/2023 at 6:54 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

It would definitely be easy, what with the lack of Identity on the part of the Nightmares.

I don't think she turns them into fabrials, so much as convinces them to grant a request for a negotiated period of time. (ch 4)

Spoiler

Yumi complied, speaking to the next spirit in line, coaxing it to split into the shape of two squat statues with grimacing features.

Each supplicant in turn got their request fulfilled. It had been years since Yumi had accidentally confused or frightened off a spirit—though these people didn’t know that, and so each waited in worried anticipation, fearing that their request would be one where the spirit turned away.

It didn’t happen, though each request took longer to fulfill, each spirit longer to persuade, as they grew more detached from her performance. Plus, each request took a little…something from Yumi. Something that recovered over time, but in the moment left her feeling empty.

Though, perhaps it is a bit like Soulcasting, but on a cognitive being instead of the cognitive aspect of a physical being - normally you use the best method of persuasion, but with practice you could Command instead of request. Good thing they were earth spirits and not sticks.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

5 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I don't think she turns them into fabrials, so much as convinces them to grant a request for a negotiated period of time. (ch 4)

  Reveal hidden contents

Yumi complied, speaking to the next spirit in line, coaxing it to split into the shape of two squat statues with grimacing features.

Each supplicant in turn got their request fulfilled. It had been years since Yumi had accidentally confused or frightened off a spirit—though these people didn’t know that, and so each waited in worried anticipation, fearing that their request would be one where the spirit turned away.

It didn’t happen, though each request took longer to fulfill, each spirit longer to persuade, as they grew more detached from her performance. Plus, each request took a little…something from Yumi. Something that recovered over time, but in the moment left her feeling empty.

Though, perhaps it is a bit like Soulcasting, but on a cognitive being instead of the cognitive aspect of a physical being - normally you use the best method of persuasion, but with practice you could Command instead of request. Good thing they were eath spirits and not sticks.

She turns them into magical technology, which in the Cosmere are called Fabrials. I think you're spot on with the idea of Persuasion leading into Commanding.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

She turns them into magical technology, which in the Cosmere are called Fabrials. I think you're spot on with the idea of Persuasion leading into Commanding.

RIght, but my point was that what we saw of the power of the Yoki-hijo (which was a scam and may not have been 100% accurate to what happened before the Father Machine was activated) wasn't that Yumi made the fabrial so much as Yumi convincing the spirit to turn itself into a fabrial. Subtle distinction, that may ultimately be wrong, but a distinction none-the-less. But since the scene mentioned that the process "took something" from Yumi to enact may implt that if she realized the implication of Intent, she have had more control over the process.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

35 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

RIght, but my point was that what we saw of the power of the Yoki-hijo (which was a scam and may not have been 100% accurate to what happened before the Father Machine was activated) wasn't that Yumi made the fabrial so much as Yumi convincing the spirit to turn itself into a fabrial. Subtle distinction, that may ultimately be wrong, but a distinction none-the-less. But since the scene mentioned that the process "took something" from Yumi to enact may implt that if she realized the implication of Intent, she have had more control over the process.

Ah okay, i see what you mean now. I think she could do the same thing to a Spren too, but since Spren are less Sapient, they'd need Commands more than persuasion. And she is very Invested, I think if she had a captive Hijo, she could force it into a Fabrial if she so chose (with practice, obviously). The persuasion may be the a polite, nonconfrontational way of achieving the same effect, whereas with a Command, she could do it more forcefully.

[Treamayne]

53 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Ah okay, i see what you mean now. I think she could do the same thing to a Spren too, but since Spren are less Sapient, they'd need Commands more than persuasion. And she is very Invested, I think if she had a captive Hijo, she could force it into a Fabrial if she so chose (with practice, obviously). The persuasion may be the a polite, nonconfrontational way of achieving the same effect, whereas with a Command, she could do it more forcefully.

Which also lines up with what Raboniel said in RoW Ch 46:

Spoiler

“You understand more about fabrials than I assumed, Lady of Wishes.”

Raboniel hummed a rhythm. “I am a quick learner.” She gestured to the notes on Navani’s desk. “In the past, my kind found it difficult to persuade spren to manifest themselves in the Physical Realm as devices. It seems Voidspren are not as naturally … self-sacrificing as those of Honor or Cultivation.”

Navani blinked as the implications of that sank in. 

 

[Firesong she/her]

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Which also lines up with what Raboniel said in RoW Ch 46:

  Hide contents

“You understand more about fabrials than I assumed, Lady of Wishes.”

Raboniel hummed a rhythm. “I am a quick learner.” She gestured to the notes on Navani’s desk. “In the past, my kind found it difficult to persuade spren to manifest themselves in the Physical Realm as devices. It seems Voidspren are not as naturally … self-sacrificing as those of Honor or Cultivation.”

Navani blinked as the implications of that sank in. 

 

We know that ancient Fabrials were literally just Spren manifesting physically as a device, just like what is shown in Yumi. Your quote being one of the things about it. Another being how the Soulcasters are literally just Spren. 

What is interesting, is that the transformation for Hijo is temporary (thus easier to convince), while Spren are permeant. Wonder what makes them different. 

 

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

Wonder what makes them different.

Or, maybe it used to be temporary, and whatever happened with BAM (also making deadeyes with the broken oath) made the change permanent?

[Firesong she/her]

12 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Or, maybe it used to be temporary, and whatever happened with BAM (also making deadeyes with the broken oath) made the change permanent?

That could be a thing, yeah. We do know BAM messed up a lot. 

I wonder what she is. My theory is a previous corrupted Sibling, that is to say, a corrupted Splinter of Honor and Cultivation. That would explain connection to Spren and Fused, and the almost, friendly I guess, way that the Heralds talk about BAM. 

The theory on her being of Honor and Cultivation comes from looking at the linguistics of her name. Mishram is close to Mishim, the moon of Cultivation. Adoda means light. Forgot the rest. Think Mishram can be seen as Mishim + Merem (Alethi for Honor), iirc. 

Quote

LewsTherinTelescope

Does "Ba-Ado-Mishram" mean "child of the light of Cultivation and Honor"?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, but you're doing a pretty good job picking apart the linguistics of that.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14590

Brandon did say it was a good theory

Edited July 14, 2023 by Firesong