Why all the spren?

[Fyodor32768]

Is there a good in-universe explanation for why regular phenomena, anger, emotions, sickness, etc, all manifest as spren on Roshar? It would seem to be the kind of thing that would have been covered in one of the books or interview archives but I don't see anything. We don't really even see worldhoppers commenting on it.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Fyodor32768 said:

Is there a good in-universe explanation for why regular phenomena, anger, emotions, sickness, etc, all manifest as spren on Roshar? It would seem to be the kind of thing that would have been covered in one of the books or interview archives but I don't see anything. We don't really even see worldhoppers commenting on it.

It was explained in books somewhere, at least partially (RoW ch 15). What books have you read?

It's because of perception. Shards Splinter their power (separate part of their power willingly from themselves), this power wants to be alive and is shaped by people's perception and manifest as living spren of emotions or nature. 

But why is it happening only on Roshar? What we know is that Roshar was created by Adonalsium himself and spren existed before the Shattering, he set up this system to work like that, and most importantly he Splintered himself and created sprens. Later spren became Splinters of Honor, Cultivation and Odium who all created new spren directly. A power left alone will develop sentience eventually, and because they are very susceptible to perception, spren took forms of what people were talking and thinking about a lot - forces of nature and emotions. A Shard has to give up part of their power to create spren, which doesn't happen to that extent at different places (Shards can do it, but it would make them weaker).

 

Spoiler

Argent

You've said that Investiture tends to develop sapience on its own. Is this a function of the amount of Investiture alone (i.e. any pile of Investiture large enough will develop sapience eventually), or does the process require extra effort (e.g. a Command from an Awakener, an action by a Shard, etc.)?

Brandon Sanderson

Under the right circumstances, a pile of investiture will eventually become self-aware. But there is no specific timing. The more investiture clumped together, the more likely--and the closer to human-level intelligence it is likely to obtain.

Of course, if you leave matter alone long enough (on a galactic scale) it will eventually end up becoming sapient too. So this isn't that different. (Well, okay, it is.)

Boogalyhu34

Are humans already sapient and intelligent because their Spiritual DNA tell their innate investiture what connections to make or what weird soul pattern to go into.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's RAFO that for now.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 4, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Satsuoni

You have mentioned that certain spren are an embodiment of concepts. How does that work for the concepts like honour, that can mean opposite things to different culture groups?

Brandon Sanderson

Human perception has a lot to do with why spren act like they do...

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Catherine

Does the metal on [Scadrial] contain within it any sort of spren-like being, or anything similar to that, and also, does the Splintered nature of the Shards on [Sel] have anything to do with how the magic manifests itself without a physical representation?

Brandon Sanderson

Scadrial did not have an analogous, self-aware Invested set of entities. The power has to be "let go of" in a way.

Goodreads: Ask the Author Q&A (Aug. 13, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Kurkistan

Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

Brandon Sanderson

Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

Kurkistan

And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so *sounds hesitant* "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

[Warbreaker spoilers edited out]

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of god.

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

 

Elantris spoilers:

Spoiler

Spren, meaning self-aware Splinters of a Shard, exist on Sel, they're Seons and Skaze. 

Spoiler

Questioner

What's the relationship between spren and seons?

Brandon Sanderson

They are the same thing from different magics.

Questioner

Okay, exact same thing from different magics?

Brandon Sanderson

"Exact," may be a little too strict, but yeah.

Questioner

So a seon can be transferred to another person, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Can a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)

 

 

[Stigmadiabolicum]

Of course bud! No worries, im glad the other guy found all the citations for what we were both explaining, those wobs are what always helped me years ago 

Its not like theres one single infodump in the books, its pieced together through pieces in all 4 and those wobs, so no worries, plus we still have some gaps he hasnt clarified yet.

You arent wrong about it being janky though, definitely deeply flawed haha. Ir does the job but definitely not long term, CS crack over long periods of time even without torture. 

I disagree they don't have physical form on braize though, just because raboniel says there's not life on the surface doesnt mean they wouldnt. It could definitely be a blend of cognitive and physical torture though, but Kaladins brief time there in the vision is the only glimpse we get. 

But the way jezrien and kalak talk about their torture seems like it wasnt abstract, smelling their flesh and fat burn, tearing pieces off, definitely damages their physical vessel but just regenerates since they're CS's. The longer it went, the more their cognitive self reflects their self perception mentally, like lopens arm/kaladins scars, they view themselves as broken

I doubt well get the full explanation until Taln and Ashe's books, think we get lift and renarins first, since book 6 will be around 2029-30 after MB era 3 and elantris sequels, well get the herald povs in the late 2030's hahah

[Fyodor32768]

This is a general explanation of what spren are. None of this really explains why regular phenomena are personified by spren on Roshar and not other places. Different entities have been splintered-there are spren like entities on other planets (such as Skaze/Seons) .

Most of these spren on Roshar are not splinters of honor (other than honorspren) and are not caused by honor's splintering.  There isn't any  explanation in the above as to why fear and glory and sickness and other concepts are embodied by spren on Roshar and not other places.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Fyodor32768

[Firesong she/her]

47 minutes ago, Fyodor32768 said:

This is a general explanation of what spren are. None of this really explains why regular phenomena are personified by spren on Roshar and not other places. Different entities have been splintered-there are spren like entities on other planets (such as Skaze/Seons) .

Most of these spren on Roshar are not splinters of honor (other than honorspren) and are not caused by honor's splintering.  There isn't any  explanation in the above as to why fear and glory and sickness and other concepts are embodied by spren on Roshar and not other places.

From what I recall, the Radiant Spren are all of Cultivation and Honor. But the natural Spren are Pre-Shattering, and also influenced by Rosharan ideals about them (as they are Cognitive entities).

Quote

That said, the non-sapient spren, so the spren that are not quite as-- They're not going to stand up and talk to you. Those all existed-- not all, but most of them existed on Roshar before the Shattering of Adonalsium.

Quote

Chaos

So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards... So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them?

Brandon Sanderson

So they were very-- They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren.

My theory is that it just comes down to the influence of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium all effecting them to a degree. 

Honor is about natural laws and order, Cultivation about growth and nature, and Odium about emotion. These all influence both people and spren, and influence the spren more through the medium of people. Thus making them take on all kinds of embodiments of natural laws (Honor and Cultivation) and emotions (Odium).

And not, I said influence from Odium, not corruption. I don't think they all have Odious Investiture. I just feel that they were influenced in several ways by Odium's Intent. 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Firesong

[alder24]

I've found WoBs asking the same question as you are, but they are at the bottom of this post.

 

1 minute ago, Fyodor32768 said:

This is a general explanation of what spren are. None of this really explains why regular phenomena are personified by spren on Roshar and not other places. Different entities have been splintered-there are spren like entities on other planets (such as Skaze/Seons) .

Seons and Skaze are far less numerous than Spren, and existed likely before Splintering of Devotion and Dominion. And they are made out of singular Aon which very likely limits how much they can be affected by perception of people. Not to mention, they are fully sapient and their self-perception now matters a lot. And they aren't made out of mixed investiture.

On Threnody Shades are Cognitive Shadows, not Splinters, not spren. There is no other known world which has splinters present (no SP spoilers), only Sel and Roshar/Braize.

Spoiler

sufficientlyadvanced

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

Phantine

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

Windrunner

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

General Reddit 2013 (March 11, 2013)

 

5 minutes ago, Fyodor32768 said:

Most of these spren on Roshar are not splinters of honor (other than honorspren) and are not caused by honor's splintering.  

They are Splinters of both Honor and Cultivation (and Odium for Voidspren), with varying amounts of investiture of both Shards. They aren't related to Splintering of Honor in any way, but are still called Splinters because Honor willingly Splintered part of his power to create spren (together with Cultivation).

Spoiler

Questioner

Is there a specific Shard that most of the spren come from?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the spren are going to be related to a combination of Honor and Cultivation, weighted certain directions for certain types of spren. But the spren are mostly both of them. 

Questioner

Are they considered Splinters?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you could call spren Splinters if you wanted to. They work in the same way as a Splinter, so yeah.

LTUE 2020 (Feb. 15, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of god.

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

You got it wrong. I'm not busy because I'm writing other books, I'm working on the licensing deals! Cardboard shardplate! Official Bridge Four loincloths! "There's spren in my poop" toilet paper!

Rutthed

Serious question: are there poopspren, and how would they fare in indoor plumbing situations?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, it depends on how you're defining spren. In the books, they don't make a distinction, but there are several varieties. At the basic level, everything has an identity--a soul, you might say, but more than that. This is based on how it is viewed, and how long it has been viewed that way. Feces would have this, but wouldn't have a very strong cognitive identity because of its transitional nature.

Other types of spren, the type that characters see and interact with, are cognitive ideals or concepts which have taken on literal personification over time. These are usually related to forces or emotions, and don't relate to this particular topic.

And that's far more than I ever expected to say on this...

General Reddit 2013 (April 2, 2013)

 

9 minutes ago, Fyodor32768 said:

There isn't any explanation in the above as to why fear and glory and sickness and other concepts are embodied by spren on Roshar and not other places.

Because we don't know why. We know only that Roshar is the only world where Splinters exists in such high concentration, a world that was directly design by Adonalsium who created first spren (starting a pattern and influencing future generation of spren to be spren of nature and emotions) and might have set up this system to work in that way (notice that spren in Shonovar are almost non-existing for some reason), and lastly we know spren are highly influenced by human perception. Combination of all of those factors likely resulted in spren being embodiment of nature and emotions, which simply isn't possible on other worlds, as they either fully lack Splinters, have to few Splinters, the place wasn't specifically design by Adonalsium to fulfill some purpose, and humans might have perceived a world there a bit differently, or sapient species were absent for a long time (like humans or Singers) to imprint their perception on investiture, unlike on Roshar.

Spoiler

Questioner 1

Is there conspiracyspren? We have kind of a family joke about that one.

Brandon Sanderson

So, conspiracyspren... Let's just say this. I have purposefully not made spren of certain things that I think would undermine the very purpose of the spren. If that makes sense?

Questioner 2

My question was going to be: What emotion would you never write a spren for?

Brandon Sanderson

Well there are ones that-- I would go with that. Things that undermine the very nature.-- But I wouldn't say never to anything. In the cosmere, particularly on Roshar, if people start to personify something, there's a chance it would become a spren, and that could be anything. The current vogue question to ask me is "will there be memespren..." And my response is always, "If people personify something, then there's a chance that a spren will develop out of it."

Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018)

 

There is this WoB which said that if another Shard settle on Roshar, new types of spren might start to appear, this suggests Roshar has something unique that makes it happen:

Spoiler

DoritoJH

We know that there are spren that are partially of Honor, partially of Cultivation, and Odium. Can there be spren made of any combination of Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Well, you would have to call them... Under that definition if you call a seon a spren, then yes. If you don't call a seon a spren, if you define a spren as, "On Roshar, related to the natural world of Roshar," then no. Theoretically yes, but it wouldn't really work. But it depends on how you define spren. If a Shard were to come and reside on Roshar like the other ones have, then you could theoretically see other new spren appearing out of them.

DoritoJH

Could there be a spren of all 16 Shards combined all at once?

Brandon Sanderson

*hands out RAFO card*

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 31, 2019)

 

And there are those WoBs, which suggest spren of nature and emotions are present on Roshar because of Cultivation and Honor being there, which might not work for different Shards (at least in type of spren popping into existence):

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Abstract concepts, have representations in Shadesmar. Fear, whatever. So, now we are going into complete nerd-land. I'm a programmer. the things that I program, the programs that I make, to me they are discrete things that kind of come alive. So the question is-- The first part of the question would those have a representation in Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson

So here's the thing. A lot of people have to collectively start doing this for it to come alive. And it's not just any abstract concept, it is an abstract concept related to the Shards that are there and Investiture actually actively coming to life bearing that sort of personality and attribute. So that's-- you see things relating to human emotions, you can see things related to nature, because of Cultivation, you see a lot of things relating to how people interact with one another, from Honor. So the answer to that is that seems-- That's not really what spren are doing, but programmingspren you could see something coming from

Questioner

Programmingspren, but not a spren for a specific program.

Brandon Sanderson

Unlikely, yeah to have a spren for a specific program. There are some really weird spren, that are different. So it's not impossible, but it's not likely either.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Chaos

So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards... So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them?

Brandon Sanderson

So they were very-- They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren.

Footnote: Chaos is referencing this exchange.
Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

 

 

 

And in my search for WoB for you I have found it:

Spoiler

Questioner

Spren. The phenomenon that creates spren. Is that Roshar-specific or is that a general effect?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, yes and no. So the question is, the effect that creates spren, is that Roshar-specific or is it general. The general fundamental rules that create spren are cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. Develops personalities and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen on any pla-- in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture. The places you've seen this happen most commonly are on Sel and Scadri-- err Roshar. You haven't seen it on Scadrial, and you've seen little kind of hints at it on Nalthis, but not quite. And so-- But it's possible for it to happen anywhere. Seons and spren are basically the same thing with different powers-- powers kind of pushing them in different-- growth out of them-- That said, the non-sapient spren, so the spren that are not quite as-- They're not going to stand up and talk to you. Those all existed-- not all, but most of them existed on Roshar before the Shattering of Adonalsium.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Just_A_Silvereye

In the cosmere, if everyone on a planet believes unicorns exist, would some kind of unicorn shadow appear in the Cognitive Realm as a result?

If yes, could you create an actual, physical unicorn out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No, it's not going to quite work this way. What's going to happen if everyone believes unicorns exist, but they don't, there's various things that could happen. You might end up with some Investiture taking on this persona and becoming this, but it's not like you can create it, but over time you might end up with the equivalent of a spren. Then it's not going to be just a physical unicorn running around. It's gonna have more spren aspects, and my guess would be that over time these things feed each other. Right? Like people see one, and then they describe, "This is what it looked like," and that changes the public perception to better match. And then over thousands of years what you end up with is, "Hey there's things in the forest over there that are a type of mysterious creature that are transparent and look a little like a horse with a horn, but maybe fly," or things like this. You would end up with something in the middle, between the two of them.

Things wouldn't naturally pop up on Shadesmar unless there's free Investiture in that same sort of way.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

There is no other place like Roshar and Sel that has a significant amount of free investiture just lying around doing nothing. On Sel, spren are in the form of Seons and Skaze because of the nature of Devotion and Dominion, just like on Roshar spren of nature are leaning more towards Cultivation, while spren of emotions are leaning towards Honor. But there must be free investiture present and this is possible to happen only on Roshar and Sel, with Roshar developing so many different types of spren of nature and emotions, because there is so much more free investiture there compared to Sel.

I was just scrolling through WoB Coppermind searching for correct WoBs and posting them here if they have at least some connection to your question. I definitely posted too many WoBs, but it's too late. If you want, you can search for the answer yourself - there are 17 pages full of 824 WoBs related to the word "spren". Warning, full Cosmere spoilers: https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?query=spren

 

 

10 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Honor is about natural laws and order, Cultivation about growth and nature, and Odium about emotion. These all influence both people and spren, and influence the spren more through the medium of people. Thus making them take on all kinds of embodiments of natural laws (Honor and Cultivation) and emotions (Odium).

Odium doesn't fit the pattern, he corrupted existing spren creating some of red Voidspren, while golden spren would be mostly of him by natural creation. Stormspren are Voidspren, just as Chaosspren, Secretspren and Guiding Spren. Spren of emotions are actually spren of Honor, while nature are of Cultivation - per one of the WoB somewhere above, and Coppermind:

Quote

Spren naturally found on Roshar are divided into nature spren and emotion spren.^[2] Emotion spren are attracted to sensations like anger, joy or passion; they are composed of more Honor than Cultivation. Nature spren are attracted to natural phenomena like wind, decay or rain, and have more Cultivation than Honor in them.^[54] 

 

[Firesong she/her]

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 

Odium doesn't fit the pattern, he corrupted existing spren creating some of red Voidspren, while golden spren would be mostly of him by natural creation. Stormspren are Voidspren, just as Chaosspren, Secretspren and Guiding Spren. Spren of emotions are actually spren of Honor, while nature are of Cultivation - per one of the WoB somewhere above, and Coppermind:

 

As I said, I don't mean he corrupted them, I stated that in my comment. I mean I feel he has an influence via making Roshar a place far more absorbed in emotion and passion, his Intent would influence everyone on the planet and bring forth Spren far more influenced by the emotions of the people. I feel you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. 

Because, yes, we know he doesn't have his Investiture in every spren, as we see spren get corrupted and they turn red and change form. 

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

As I said, I don't mean he corrupted them, I stated that in my comment. I mean I feel he has an influence via making Roshar a place far more absorbed in emotion and passion, his Intent would influence everyone on the planet and bring forth Spren far more influenced by the emotions of the people. I feel you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. 

Because, yes, we know he doesn't have his Investiture in every spren, as we see spren get corrupted and they turn red and change form. 

I was specifically responding to this part: "Thus making them take on all kinds of embodiments of natural laws (Honor and Cultivation) and emotions (Odium)"

I said he doesn't fit this pattern, and Honor is responsible for emotion spren, not Odium.

By bringing up corrupted spren I wanted to point out that not all Voidspren are truly his, that some were corrupted, but he still has his true, natural Splinters which are golden in color. Those aren’t spren related to emotions.

 

 

Odium only recently invested in Roshar enough to make his Rhythm integral part of Roshar, there is little time for him to influence other spren. While some normal, lesser spren (not native to Braize) are for sure invested with some Odium's investiture next to main mixes of Honor and Cultivation's investiture, and thus are influenced by him, this on a much smaller scale than what Honor and Cultivation have. 

Also Odium doesn't care about all emotions. He lacks care, love, empathy and emotions of this type (which was noted by Venli).

Is his presence influencing people and spren in a certain passionate/hateful way? Possibly, but I don't think it's that noticeable in humans compared to other places in Cosmere. But in spren it might be as per one of WoBs I posted there:

Quote

A lot of people have to collectively start doing this for it to come alive. And it's not just any abstract concept, it is an abstract concept related to the Shards that are there and Investiture actually actively coming to life bearing that sort of personality and attribute. So that's-- you see things relating to human emotions, you can see things related to nature, because of Cultivation, you see a lot of things relating to how people interact with one another, from Honor.

So yes, his presence would result in natural creation of more spren related to his intent, which is about hate, conflict (Sja-Anat noted Odium-Shard loves conflicts while Rayse-Vessel hates it) and some emotions. But as I said, his reluctance to invest more in Roshar would likely limit this effect a lot, or all spren manifested because of Odium are deemed to be Voidspren and were banished to Braize, and that's why we don't see his real spren there that clearly. 

[Firesong she/her]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I was specifically responding to this part: "Thus making them take on all kinds of embodiments of natural laws (Honor and Cultivation) and emotions (Odium)"

I said he doesn't fit this pattern, and Honor is responsible for emotion spren, not Odium.

By bringing up corrupted spren I wanted to point out that not all Voidspren are truly his, that some were corrupted, but he still has his true, natural Splinters which are golden in color. Those aren’t spren related to emotions.

 

 

Odium only recently invested in Roshar enough to make his Rhythm integral part of Roshar, there is little time for him to influence other spren. While some normal, lesser spren (not native to Braize) are for sure invested with some Odium's investiture next to main mixes of Honor and Cultivation's investiture, and thus are influenced by him, this on a much smaller scale than what Honor and Cultivation have. 

Also Odium doesn't care about all emotions. He lacks care, love, empathy and emotions of this type (which was noted by Venli).

Is his presence influencing people and spren in a certain passionate/hateful way? Possibly, but I don't think it's that noticeable in humans compared to other places in Cosmere. But in spren it might be as per one of WoBs I posted there:

So yes, his presence would result in natural creation of more spren related to his intent, which is about hate, conflict (Sja-Anat noted Odium-Shard loves conflicts while Rayse-Vessel hates it) and some emotions. But as I said, his reluctance to invest more in Roshar would likely limit this effect a lot, or all spren manifested because of Odium are deemed to be Voidspren and were banished to Braize, and that's why we don't see his real spren there that clearly. 

Fair, fair. 

[bmcclure7]

On 7/17/2023 at 0:40 PM, Firesong said:

Fair, fair. 

No, there are void Spren on roshar Storm Spren definitely and probably others.  

[alder24]

48 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

No, there are void Spren on roshar Storm Spren definitely and probably others.  

Not exactly, Stormspren weren't on Roshar, they were in the Everstorm locked on Braize, Venli had to find a way to pull them on Roshar first, RoW ch 86:

Quote

She didn’t quite understand his explanations of what was happening. But she knew a storm was mounting in Shadesmar. In fact, the storm had been building for generations—growing in fury, intensity. It barred the way to Damnation.
That storm was where Ulim had originally come from. There were also thousands of another kind of spren in the storm: stormspren. Mindless things like windspren or flamespren.
Venli had to find a way to pull those stormspren across and capture them. To that end, a large portion of the roiling storm had been broken off by the god of gods, the ancient one called Odium. This storm was his strength, his essence. Over painful months, he’d moved the storm across the landscape— unseen—until it arrived here. Kind of. Almost.

[...]

"I will serve,” he said. “I promise it, Venli. But we have to bring the stormspren to this side first. And persuade the listeners to take the forms.”

[...]

“Well, a storm,” Ulim said. “In the past, they mostly spent their time inside gemhearts. Odium would directly bless the singer, making them a kind of royalty. They didn’t really wander about much.”

By the time of WoR the Everstorm was moved by Odium so close to Roshar that Stormspren were being pulled there by lightning, RoW ch 88:

Quote

“It worked,” Venli whispered to Awe, clutching the stone. “It finally worked. The secret is lightning, Eshonai! It pulls them through. When I drew close enough right after a strike, I found hundreds of them. I snagged this one before the others returned to the other side.…”

 

[bmcclure7]

20 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Not exactly, Stormspren weren't on Roshar, they were in the Everstorm locked on Braize, Venli had to find a way to pull them on Roshar first, RoW ch 86:

By the time of WoR the Everstorm was moved by Odium so close to Roshar that Stormspren were being pulled there by lightning, RoW ch 88:

 

I wonder if voidspren will be like odiums rhythms, same type but with a more passionate edge, storm Spren could odium version of wind Spren. We could get a whole new ecosystem of Spren.  

Edited July 24, 2023 by bmcclure7

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I wonder if voidspren will be like odiums rhythms, same type but with a more passionate edge, storm Spren could odium version of wind Spren. We could get a whole new ecosystem of Spren.  

That's a good idea. I think that might be the case. What's more, Stormspren are red, they are corrupted, and they could be Windspren before. That would make sense. Any Voidspren which are red are corrupted, golden ones are direct Splinters of Odium.

[bmcclure7]

24 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's a good idea. I think that might be the case. What's more, Stormspren are red, they are corrupted, and they could be Windspren before. That would make sense. Any Voidspren which are red are corrupted, golden ones are direct Splinters of Odium.

I'm not sure we can make such assumption about the color of  voidspren.  Consider all the colors of regular Spren there not all blue or green.

And isn't ulim red as well?

I suspect that will get several colors of voidspren. Yellow, orange, golden, red, purple extra.

 

Odium has many colors so why not his Spren. 

 

I wonder what a more passionate version of  life Spren could be growth Spren?

 Glory Spren,  Maybe exaltations? 

 I wonder if this will hold true for the high Spren.  What would be a more passionate version of a cryptic?  Deception Spren  Mysterious Spren,  Creativity Spren? 

Edited July 24, 2023 by bmcclure7

[alder24]

10 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I'm not sure we can make such assumption about the color of  voidspren.  Consider all the colors of regular Spren there not all blue or green.

I disagree. Till recently Odium wasn't very invested in Roshar, he relied heavily on corrupting rather than his own investiture. Many Voidspren (like Guiding spren) are all golden in color and look like humans - I think they came on Roshar form Ashyn, with Odium and humans. 

Spoiler

Questioner

So, we know in Mistborn there is this running... you can say, motif about Ruin being associated with the color black and Preservation with the color white, we see a lot of very subtle and a lot of very unsubtle...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yes.

Questioner

Is such a motif present in any other books? I think I see it in Stormlight.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in Stormlight you can see it. So, Ruin is a red-gold... not Ruin, Odium. Odium is a red-gold. Honor is a blue-white and Cultivation is green, obviously. So, those motifs stay, when you... when you see a red or a gold, it's a reddish gold sort of thing, either of those colors, it's going to be Odium.

Questioner

Even when we something we might suspect to be outside influence in other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Not necessarily, because red can also mean corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere. So, I would call Odium's real color gold, because you're going to see red when Odium is corrupting other things, so...

Questioner

It's not necessarily on Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not necessarily Odium. So, you're asking for the invading force on Mistborn, it doesn't necessarily mean Odium because it's red. So red just kind of means corruption. I've talked about that before, so. Not necessarily, not definitive, yeah.

Footnote: When Sanderson said "you're asking about the invading force on Mistborn", the questioner made a guilty "caught red-handed" shrug.
ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

And isn't ulim red as well?

I've checked it, you're right. He's red and he turns himself into red lightning. I thought he was the same as Guiding spren.

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I suspect that will get several colors of voidspren. Yellow, orange, golden, red, purple extra.

Possible. Secretspren are yellowish-white.

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Odium has many colors so why not his Spren. 

I'm not denying that his spren aren't of many colors, they are. What I'm saying is those reddish are corrupted, those more golden are his direct Splinters.

[bmcclure7]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

I disagree. Till recently Odium wasn't very invested in Roshar, he relied heavily on corrupting rather than his own investiture. Many Voidspren (like Guiding spren) are all golden in color and look like humans - I think they came on Roshar form Ashyn, with Odium and humans. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

So, we know in Mistborn there is this running... you can say, motif about Ruin being associated with the color black and Preservation with the color white, we see a lot of very subtle and a lot of very unsubtle...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yes.

Questioner

Is such a motif present in any other books? I think I see it in Stormlight.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in Stormlight you can see it. So, Ruin is a red-gold... not Ruin, Odium. Odium is a red-gold. Honor is a blue-white and Cultivation is green, obviously. So, those motifs stay, when you... when you see a red or a gold, it's a reddish gold sort of thing, either of those colors, it's going to be Odium.

Questioner

Even when we something we might suspect to be outside influence in other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Not necessarily, because red can also mean corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere. So, I would call Odium's real color gold, because you're going to see red when Odium is corrupting other things, so...

Questioner

It's not necessarily on Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not necessarily Odium. So, you're asking for the invading force on Mistborn, it doesn't necessarily mean Odium because it's red. So red just kind of means corruption. I've talked about that before, so. Not necessarily, not definitive, yeah.

Footnote: When Sanderson said "you're asking about the invading force on Mistborn", the questioner made a guilty "caught red-handed" shrug.
ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

I've checked it, you're right. He's red and he turns himself into red lightning. I thought he was the same as Guiding spren.

Possible. Secretspren are yellowish-white.

I'm not denying that his spren aren't of many colors, they are. What I'm saying is those reddish are corrupted, those more golden are his direct Splinters.

 Red can mean corruption but  I'm not convinced it means that all the time.

We don't know when odium started being invested in roshar.   

It's only an Assumption that it's started happening recently it could have been as much as 5000 years ago. 

 

 The everstorm has red lightning are we to assume that some kind of corruption as well? 

Ulim  Doesn't seem like a corrupted Spren at all.   For one thing to take care of secrets only just figured out how to corrupt intelligence spren.  We're as ulim is said to have been fighting for odium for thousands of years. 

 There is no way he could be a corrupted Spren.  So red must not always equal corruption. 

 

Also corrupted Sprint still retain  Similarities to their previously uncorrupted form. Yet we cannot find anything similar at all to any of these void Spren on roshar.  

[alder24]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Red can mean corruption but  I'm not convinced it means that all the time.

Maybe not. But for me the WoB in my previous post is enough to say that most of the red associated with Odium is corruption.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

We don't know when odium started being invested in roshar.   

It's only an Assumption that it's started happening recently it could have been as much as 5000 years ago. 

It was stated either in OB or RoW that Odium's Rhythm became a part of roshar in the meantime between the Last Desolation and the True Desolation. Possibly in relation to BaM. But all of Odium's spren are still ancient. Corruption gives him likely the possibility to twist someone else's creation which would require less investiture than just making his own Splinter. 

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

 The everstorm has red lightning are we to assume that some kind of corruption as well? 

Red lightning exists in real life.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Ulim  Doesn't seem like a corrupted Spren at all.   For one thing to take care of secrets only just figured out how to corrupt intelligence spren.  We're as ulim is said to have been fighting for odium for thousands of years. 

By corruption I don't mean Sja-Anat did it - she didn't, she only just began to corrupt intelligent spren. Odium personally corrupted spren. He can do that. Even Sja-Anat said that Odium will catch her spren and Unmake them, and if he finds the proof for Sja-Anat's betrayal, he will Unmake her as well (unmaking and corruption are likely similar but a bit different processes).

[bmcclure7]

49 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Maybe not. But for me the WoB in my previous post is enough to say that most of the red associated with Odium is corruption.

It was stated either in OB or RoW that Odium's Rhythm became a part of roshar in the meantime between the Last Desolation and the True Desolation. Possibly in relation to BaM. But all of Odium's spren are still ancient. Corruption gives him likely the possibility to twist someone else's creation which would require less investiture than just making his own Splinter. 

Red lightning exists in real life.

By corruption I don't mean Sja-Anat did it - she didn't, she only just began to corrupt intelligent spren. Odium personally corrupted spren. He can do that. Even Sja-Anat said that Odium will catch her spren and Unmake them, and if he finds the proof for Sja-Anat's betrayal, he will Unmake her as well (unmaking and corruption are likely similar but a bit different processes).

Where did it say odium wasn't  invested till ob ? I was under the impression that his has been invested during the desolations. 

[alder24]

23 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Where did it say odium wasn't  invested till ob ? I was under the impression that his has been invested during the desolations. 

I didn't say he wasn't invested at all, only that he was avoiding investing in Roshar too much, to avoid binding himself to it permanently. He wanted to be free of Roshar, and once invested heavily, Shards can't easily leave. It was said that Odium's pure tone is now a part of Roshar, where I don't remember, can't find it - but the context was Odium wasn't that strongly invested in earlier Desolations, but now is enough to have his Rhythm permeating everything. So somewhere between the Last Desolation (or even more likely the False Desolation) and the True Desolation, he became truly a part of Roshar just like Honor and Cultivation.

Spoiler

Questioner

Did Odium originally have a planet he was Invested in?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium's plan always involved not getting stuck on one

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium never really settled on a planet.  He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things.  Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process.  So yes it is very tough to leave.

Phoenix Comicon 2013 (May 24, 2013)

 

I've found some quotes, but it was explained more elsewhere too: RoW ch 69:

Quote

“Two tones of Roshar?” Navani said. “There are three.”
No, there are two. One from my mother, one from my father. The tone of Odium is an interloper. False.
“Could part of the reason you lost your abilities relate to that tone becoming a pure tone of Roshar? Odium truly becoming one of the three gods?”
I … don’t know, the Sibling admitted.

RoW I-3:

Quote

Some Fused in the hallway noticed it and looked around, though the common singers weren’t attuned enough to hear Odium’s song— like a rhythm but more resonant. One of the three pure tones of Roshar

 

[Treamayne]

49 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Where did it say odium wasn't  invested till ob ? 

It was not that he wasn't investing until Oathbringer - It was that in Oathbringer it was implied that he inveted in the Rosharan System only after Tanavast was splintered (he had been holding back until then because he wanted to leave the system and he thought Splintering honor would release him). By RoW we find out in Ch 83:

Spoiler

It was in that moment that Venli saw for herself the depth of his lies. He claimed to be of all Passions, and yet where was the love she’d once felt? The love for her mother? Her sister? Her friends? For a while, she’d even forgotten her love for Demid, though it had helped to awaken her.

It felt wrong to be using his Light to practice her Surgebinding, but the stones whispered that it was well. Odium and his tone had become part of Roshar, as Cultivation and Honor—who had not been created alongside the planet—had become part of it. His power was natural, and no more wrong or right than any other part of nature.

So some time after Honor's Splintering and before the arrival of the Everstorm he finally invested himself into the Rosharan system instead of relying upon corrupted versions of other investiture. 

From the Coppermind:

Spoiler

Killing Honor did not free Odium from Braize, and the sacrifice of the Herald Taln meant that he could not send his armies to Roshar. And so, for the next four and a half thousand years, he prepared for the time when Taln would break, allowing for one last Desolation -- the True Desolation.^[50]

Odium, though severely limited by Honor's actions, was nonetheless active. He also kept a limited awareness of what was going on all across the cosmere, and was aware that Ruin and Preservation had combined to become Harmony in Scadrian Year 1025 FE, around 309 Rosharan years before the True Desolation.^[55][56][57] The idea of someone taking up two Shards at once, and finding harmony between them, terrified him.^[58] He therefore began formulating a plan to eliminate this threat after being freed from the Rosharan System.^[59]

As one of his Unmade, Nergaoul, was still free, Odium sent him to Alethkar to facilitate the Thrill among the Alethi. Over the centuries, the battle-rage brought about by Nergaoul became normal, and even desirable to the Alethi men; this developed affinity allowed Odium to control them using the Thrill.^[15] Moreover, the Thrill allowed Odium to groom a champion whom he could later put in command of his armies and use to release himself. In the final decades of the Era of Solitude, such a potential champion appeared in the form of Dalinar Kholin. Odium focused on him to ensure he had as many hooks in him as possible.^[18]

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Treamayne

[bmcclure7]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I didn't say he wasn't invested at all, only that he was avoiding investing in Roshar too much, to avoid binding himself to it permanently. He wanted to be free of Roshar, and once invested heavily, Shards can't easily leave. It was said that Odium's pure tone is now a part of Roshar, where I don't remember, can't find it - but the context was Odium wasn't that strongly invested in earlier Desolations, but now is enough to have his Rhythm permeating everything. So somewhere between the Last Desolation (or even more likely the False Desolation) and the True Desolation, he became truly a part of Roshar just like Honor and Cultivation.

  Hide contents

Questioner

Did Odium originally have a planet he was Invested in?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium's plan always involved not getting stuck on one

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

  Hide contents

Questioner

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium never really settled on a planet.  He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things.  Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process.  So yes it is very tough to leave.

Phoenix Comicon 2013 (May 24, 2013)

 

I've found some quotes, but it was explained more elsewhere too: RoW ch 69:

RoW I-3:

 

 The fact that the sibling even  knew about the tone of odium shows that odium had already invested roshar before her her sleeping.  As for false or interloper,  The sibling isn't exactly unbiased. 

 Perhaps during the false desolation, Maybe something that BoM did. 

 

 

On a side note how does corruption not invest you in a particular system?  I was under the impression that trying to corrupt investor of a particular planet would invest you on that planet if you did enough of it. Is that wrong?

[alder24]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

On a side note how does corruption not invest you in a particular system?  I was under the impression that trying to corrupt investor of a particular planet would invest you on that planet if you did enough of it. Is that wrong?

It does, but likely less than what you would need to create a full Splinter of yourself - you're using someone else's investiture as fundations and only tweak it with your. 

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

It was not that he wasn't investing until Oathbringer - It was that in Oathbringer it was implied that he inveted in the Rosharan System only after Tanavast was splintered (he had been holding back until then because he wanted to leave the system and he thought Splintering honor would release him). By RoW we find out in Ch 83:

  Reveal hidden contents

It was in that moment that Venli saw for herself the depth of his lies. He claimed to be of all Passions, and yet where was the love she’d once felt? The love for her mother? Her sister? Her friends? For a while, she’d even forgotten her love for Demid, though it had helped to awaken her.

It felt wrong to be using his Light to practice her Surgebinding, but the stones whispered that it was well. Odium and his tone had become part of Roshar, as Cultivation and Honor—who had not been created alongside the planet—had become part of it. His power was natural, and no more wrong or right than any other part of nature.

So some time after Honor's Splintering and before the arrival of the Everstorm he finally invested himself into the Rosharan system instead of relying upon corrupted versions of other investiture. 

Thanks for the quote. I suspect it was either because of BAM or Everstorm, which was a part of the storm surrounding Braize, cut off and slowly moved towards Roshar. RoW ch 86:

Quote

the storm had been building for generations—growing in fury, intensity. It barred the way to Damnation.

[...]

To that end, a large portion of the roiling storm had been broken off by the god of gods, the ancient one called Odium. This storm was his strength, his essence. Over painful months, he’d moved the storm across the landscape— unseen—until it arrived here. Kind of. Almost

 

[Firesong she/her]

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 The fact that the sibling even  knew about the tone of odium shows that odium had already invested roshar before her her sleeping.  As for false or interloper,  The sibling isn't exactly unbiased. 

 Perhaps during the false desolation, Maybe something that BoM did. 

 

 

On a side note how does corruption not invest you in a particular system?  I was under the impression that trying to corrupt investor of a particular planet would invest you on that planet if you did enough of it. Is that wrong?

The Sibling is they/them, not her. 

And on the tone of Odium, he didn't have to Invest in the planet for that. There are ways to detect a Shardic Tone in their Invested Arts (bronze pulses, the sound that Shallan heard when Jasnah soulcasted, etc), while both are examples of Shards invested into a system, the situation we saw it in could happen no matter where you are as it is part of the Invested Arts themselves. 

So, it doesn't necessarily mean that. Could have heard it via seeing Odium, or by observing Voidbinding. 

[Treamayne]

12 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

On a side note how does corruption not invest you in a particular system?  I was under the impression that trying to corrupt investor of a particular planet would invest you on that planet if you did enough of it. Is that wrong?

Not exactly correct. I think of it as like an alcoholic beverage:

If, for example, the Unmade were originally composed of <investiture orange juice*> and Odium adds a bit of Hatred Vodka - he's Corrupted that Juice into a screwdriver spren (but not added his investiture to the system directly). Once he starts serving Hatred Vodka straight up (or on the rocks) he's invested in the system - or if he were to work with Cultivation to make a new drink he would also be investing in the system.

As long as the corrupted investiture is still 90% <something> and only a drop of his Hatred Vodka then he was able to keep himself at arm's length to move freely and not get "stuck."

 

*Note: This could be Adonalsium's original investiture used to make Roshar - then assigned to one or more shards after the shattering - or - Some combination of Honor and Cultivation. Doesn't matter for the anology. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Treamayne

[bmcclure7]

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It does, but likely less than what you would need to create a full Splinter of yourself - you're using someone else's investiture as fundations and only tweak it with your. 

Thanks for the quote. I suspect it was either because of BAM or Everstorm, which was a part of the storm surrounding Braize, cut off and slowly moved towards Roshar. RoW ch 86:

 

 Does that mean that most of the void Spren are new made post false desolation?