Herald Mechanics

[Knightharrt]

Does anyone know of a post that has a detailed breakdown and/or some WoBs about the mechanics of the Heralds and the Oathpact?

From what I understand, when humans first came to Roshar, the Fused couldn't be permanently killed so Heralds were created as a way to lock them on Braize, but the Heralds had to go to Braize in order to keep the Fuzed from returning to Roshar.   In order to get the Fused on Braize, the Heralds had to kill the Fuzed and during that process some of the Heralds typically ended up dying as well.  What I don't understand, is how the Oathpact (originally) keeps the Fused on Braize before one of the Heralds dies and/or goes to Braize. 

If the Heralds had to be on Braize to lock the Fused to Braise, did one member of the Heralds have to die before any Fuzed could initiate the locking mechanism? Let says that in a perfect Desolation that the Heralds manage to kill all the Fused without any Heralds dying, like a Flawless Victory, do they have to return to Braize voluntarily?  If there isn't a Herald on Braize to begin with, would the Fused just keep on returning over and over until one Herald dies? 

Once on Braize, the torture begins and if a Herald breaks, the game is resets and everyone returns to Roshar and the killing begins again.  What does it mean for them to break though?  Can they just Uber back to Roshar whenever they feel like it or do they have to do something w/ more intent such as breaking an Oath or swearing an Oath to Odium or something like that? Do they have to... you know... use the ol' Braize Honor Chasm?  

Also, if the 10 of them can mop up the floor with the Fused on Roshar, how come they don't just whoop ass on Braize for an eternity?  Are they weaker over there?  Do they have to hold back or something, like if they kill Fused on Braize, do the Fuzed return to Roshar?  I'm assuming they get to bring their Honorblades with them as there are only 9 blades left on Roshar.  Do the Blades not work over there?  I'm assuming the simple answer is that they can't beat the Fuzed without the rest of the humans on Roshar but I don't know that for sure.  

If they can lock the Fuzed on Braise without one of them dying first, couldn't they just imprison some of them and leave the majority on Braize?  Why don't they just try to imprison them on Roshar and then just guard the prison?  Seems like it would save them from having to go get tortured.  At the very least, the could capture some of the more imprisonable Fused and then let the less captureable ones keep returning and killing them on repeat in the comfort of their own home.  Maybe the fused prisoners could just kill themselves to escape prison and the return like some sort of prison loophole?

The Oathpact seems like a janky idea to me.  

[Stigmadiabolicum]

Love the question bud haha, it's definitely been slowly hashed out over a decade now

We know if they do get a flawless victory, or any of them survive, they do need to willingly return to braize, log off the roshar server, the final one we saw was them just finally refusing. 

We know the fused did respawn from braize until the heralds locked them away, it just wasn't as instantaneous as the everstorm, so theyd prepare everyone, have a desolation and win some of the big boss fights, then just head back. 

On braize they dont just immediately get captured, the fan understanding is theyre on the run being hunted until finally getting caught and tortured, sharing the burden. Id imagine very similar to what Kaladin was going through in the braize vision when he met Hoid in RoW.

The mechanism to how they break under torture and start a return is unclear, id imagine its just Intent. It almost seemed like they never realized Taln never broke til near the end, maybe they dont know which of them gives in, although if Taln gets his senses back he'd know this time around it was Shallans mom heh

As far as how it started off, i think the oathpact created a barrier, it blocks off the fused as they got killed, and then the heralds head on over to shore it up. the way nale and ulim talk he seemingly slipped through the cracks during their experiments transferring investiture off world.

As for why not imprison them on roshar, that had been attempted before, they just eject from that body and come back, now popping them in gems on the other hand, that might have worked.

I definitely think they wouldnt win without troops and later radiants, theyre all absolute legends but even they couldnt take on all the fused. The real question is why didnt they just get new replacement heralds, or at least each rotate out haha. unless they had to be from Ashyn, it isnt like odium not ever making new fused since he hates investing

[alder24]

There is still a lot we don't know about Heralds and Oathpact. It will be hard to figure out those questions right now. Even Brandon isn't sure on the mechanics of this yet:

Spoiler

ArgentSun

Prior to the arrival of the Everstorm, what happened to the Heralds who died? Were they immediately sent back to Braize to wait until the rest arrived and started the Isolation, or could they return to Roshar, similarly to how the Fused can return multiple times?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the mechanics of this I've been dodgy on on purpose because I know I'm gonna want some wiggle room in the books when I write them. Right now they can't return. They go, they're done. I have to make sure that works with the magic and with the narrative as I write them, so you can take this as one of those Words of Brandon that the books might contradict, but the original outline has, you die, you're there, you can't go back. But there are various incarnations of this where they were holding the Fused back by doing that, from being reborn, if that makes sense. And that's one of the parts that I'm not 100% sure where I'm going to go with, because when I came up with all this stuff, I wasn't working with the realities of the books, where I was writing the Fused, and things like this. And now that I have, this is very natural to be like, alright, let me do a reset, and make sure that the lore and worldbuilding all is consistent now that I've done five books-- I haven't done the fifth one yet, but you know what I mean. It's one of the reasons I have the break in between, is to give myself a chance to go to my outlines and make sure. Originally they were holding back... you could kill Fused and they wouldn't return, because Heralds were holding them back, the Oathpact was. But that meant when the Heralds died, they couldn't return either, and so the war could actually happen. But the Everstorm and things like that have changed that. Anyway, that's the answer until I write it in the books and get you some canon in the flashbacks of the Heralds we will be writing eventually.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

10 hours ago, Knightharrt said:

From what I understand, when humans first came to Roshar, the Fused couldn't be permanently killed so Heralds were created as a way to lock them on Braize, but the Heralds had to go to Braize in order to keep the Fuzed from returning to Roshar.   In order to get the Fused on Braize, the Heralds had to kill the Fuzed and during that process some of the Heralds typically ended up dying as well.  What I don't understand, is how the Oathpact (originally) keeps the Fused on Braize before one of the Heralds dies and/or goes to Braize. 

It didn't. Heralds fight for some time, some will die, but until they return to Braize Fused can go back to Roshar. Heralds don't need to kill all Fused, they just need to be on Roshar long enough for people to unite, learn and fight on their own well enough so Heralds aren't needed anymore. Once Heralds return, they lock Fused and Voidspren on Braize, but many are still on Roshar fighting - those would eventually get killed by humans and Radiants, and won't be able to return back on Roshar.

However Heralds were on a running clock - they couldn't stay on Roshar forever as if they tried another Desolation would start - they had to go back to Braize after some time had passed.

Spoiler

luke.spence (paraphrased)

What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end

darkanimereal1 (paraphrased)

Oh. So they've got a time limit.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again.

luke.spence (paraphrased)

So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)

 

Spoiler

chocolatechoux

Hello Mr. Sanderson. This is probably too late but I just wanted to ask what ends a desolation? Is it mainly about winning the battles or is the fighting just about holding out and buying time for something else?

Brandon Sanderson

It involves the departure of the Heralds.

/r/books AMA 2015 (March 30, 2015)

 

10 hours ago, Knightharrt said:

If the Heralds had to be on Braize to lock the Fused to Braise, did one member of the Heralds have to die before any Fuzed could initiate the locking mechanism? 

It's likely that was the case. Tbf I can't see it working any other way, as Fused return to Roshar gradually, new individuals were being wake up and sent to Roshar over years after Desolation had started (as it's currently), so Oathpact can't just lock Braize on its own as soon as Heralds were sent back to Roshar, and I don't think any arbitrary number of years that had to pass before it would work like that would make sense. I personally think a Herald has to die for that locking mechanism to be turned on.

However the WoB above talks that if Heralds decided not to return, a new Desolation would start - this makes no sense if a Herald needs to died to lock Fused on Braize, it makes a lot of sense if there is a time period after which Oathpact automatically locks them on Braize without any need for a Herald to die, and thus not returning would start Desolation again. But it must not be immediate as Fused were able to Return multiple times during a single Desolation (Pursuer was able to always come back after death and kill his killer).

10 hours ago, Knightharrt said:

Let says that in a perfect Desolation that the Heralds manage to kill all the Fused without any Heralds dying, like a Flawless Victory, do they have to return to Braize voluntarily?

Yes, they had to, see the WoB above.

10 hours ago, Knightharrt said:

Once on Braize, the torture begins and if a Herald breaks, the game is resets and everyone returns to Roshar and the killing begins again.  What does it mean for them to break though?

Per OB ch 38, they had to agree to let Fused back on Roshar. One of them had to allow them to return. They were tortured horribly (said even in prelude) by Voidspren or Fused

OB ch 38:

Quote

HOWEVER, IF ANY ONE OF THE TEN AGREED TO BEND HIS OATH AND LET VOIDBRINGERS PAST, IT OPENED A FLOOD. THEY COULD ALL RETURN.
“And that started a Desolation,” Dalinar said.
THAT STARTED A DESOLATION, the Stormfather agreed.
An oath that could be bent, a pact that could be undermined. Dalinar could see what had happened. It seemed so obvious. “They were tortured, weren’t they?”
HORRIBLY, BY THE SPIRITS THEY TRAPPED. THEY COULD SHARE THE PAIN BECAUSE OF THEIR BOND—BUT EVENTUALLY, SOMEONE ALWAYS YIELDED.
ONCE ONE BROKE, ALL TEN HERALDS RETURNED TO ROSHAR. THEY FOUGHT. THEY LED MEN. THEIR OATHPACT DELAYED THE FUSED FROM RETURNING IMMEDIATELY, BUT EACH TIME AFTER A DESOLATION, THE HERALDS RETURNED TO DAMNATION TO SEAL THE ENEMY AGAIN. TO HIDE, FIGHT, AND FINALLY WITHSTAND TOGETHER.
THE CYCLE REPEATED. AT FIRST THE RESPITE BETWEEN DESOLATIONS WAS LONG. HUNDREDS OF YEARS. NEAR THE END, DESOLATIONS CAME SEPARATED BY FEWER THAN TEN YEARS. THERE WAS LESS THAN ONE YEAR BETWEEN THE LAST TWO. THE SOULS OF THE HERALDS HAD WORN THIN. THEY BROKE ALMOST AS SOON AS THEY WERE CAUGHT AND TORTURED IN DAMNATION.

WoK prelude:

Quote

Kalak felt something within him break at the admission. How long had it been? Centuries, perhaps millennia, of torture. It was so hard to keep track. Those fires, those hooks, digging into his flesh anew each day. Searing the skin o his arm, then burning the fat, then driving to the bone. He could smell it. Almighty, he could smell it!

 

10 hours ago, Knightharrt said:

Also, if the 10 of them can mop up the floor with the Fused on Roshar, how come they don't just whoop ass on Braize for an eternity?  Are they weaker over there?

It was said either in AU or in RoW by Raboniel that nothing lives on the surface of Braize, only Splinters like Voidspren and Fused are there - this very likely means that Heralds weren't physical on Braize, they didn't have their body, or they were in CR of Braize - likely something very similar to what Kaladin experience in RoW, he wasn't on Braize with his body, but with his mind, which will still think it should feel pain. 

Also we know that Fused on Braize are supposed to be sleeping there awaiting new Return, and some, like Heavenly-ones, respect Heralds a lot - I don't think Fused were the one who tortured them.

10 hours ago, Knightharrt said:

Do they have to hold back or something, like if they kill Fused on Braize, do the Fuzed return to Roshar?

No.

10 hours ago, Knightharrt said:

I'm assuming they get to bring their Honorblades with them as there are only 9 blades left on Roshar.

Yes, or at least their Honorblades being bound to them, are with their soul, not physically there (if they didn't go there physically would they be able to use their blades there?).

10 hours ago, Knightharrt said:

I'm assuming the simple answer is that they can't beat the Fuzed without the rest of the humans on Roshar but I don't know that for sure.  

10 against thousands of Fused and tens of thousands of Voidspren doesn't sound like a fair fight.

10 hours ago, Knightharrt said:

Why don't they just try to imprison them on Roshar and then just guard the prison? 

Maybe the fused prisoners could just kill themselves to escape prison and the return like some sort of prison loophole?

It was said in books that Fused can just decide to leave the body they're in and Return to Braize to get a new body. You can't imprison them on Roshar.

10 hours ago, Knightharrt said:

At the very least, the could capture some of the more imprisonable Fused and then let the less captureable ones keep returning and killing them on repeat in the comfort of their own home.

That would leave Roshar in a state of permanent war. Keep in mind, Singers were the bodies needed for Fused to Return. Heralds would have to imprison every Singer alive to keep track of them all - and there were possibly tens of millions of them. This is simply impossible. Plus Voidspren and forms of power are also a huge problem. Not to mention Unmades.

10 hours ago, Knightharrt said:

The Oathpact seems like a janky idea to me.  

We just don't know enough of it for now. It would be better explained in books 6-10, possible 8 or 9, in Ash and Taln book. We have to wait a lot for it. 

Spoiler

keleks_breath

1) In their place of torture, are the Heralds able to communicate with each other or with other people/spren outside of that place? E.g. how is Ishar able to maintain his threat of severing the Nahel bond if he is being tortured for hundreds of years? 2)When the Heralds return to Roshar, do they appear like Schwarzenegger in Terminator (nude) or do they appear with the clothing they wore when they signed up for the Oathpact? 3)Are the Honorblades involved in the torture of the Heralds? Again, thank you for taking the time to interact with us fans and readers.

Brandon Sanderson

I have to RAFO questions along the lines of what you're asking. These are things that are relevant to books 6-10, which probably won't even be written for a decade. Talking about them too much now would be counter-productive, I feel. Sorry.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 24, 2015)

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by alder24

[Knightharrt]

18 hours ago, Stigmadiabolicum said:

On braize they dont just immediately get captured, the fan understanding is theyre on the run being hunted until finally getting caught and tortured, sharing the burden. Id imagine very similar to what Kaladin was going through in the braize vision when he met Hoid in RoW.

I haven't done my second listen of RoW yet, but have a feeling a listen to this scene a couple times. 

 

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

However Heralds were on a running clock - they couldn't stay on Roshar forever as if they tried another Desolation would start - they had to go back to Braize after some time had passed.

  Hide contents

luke.spence (paraphrased)

What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end

darkanimereal1 (paraphrased)

Oh. So they've got a time limit.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again.

luke.spence (paraphrased)

So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)

Thank you, this WoB basically answers exactly what I was trying to ask.  I hadn't seen this before.  

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

However the WoB above talks that if Heralds decided not to return, a new Desolation would start - this makes no sense if a Herald needs to died to lock Fused on Braize, it makes a lot of sense if there is a time period after which Oathpact automatically locks them on Braize without any need for a Herald to die, and thus not returning would start Desolation again. But it must not be immediate as Fused were able to Return multiple times during a single Desolation (Pursuer was able to always come back after death and kill his killer)

Great point about the Pursuer, makes me lean towards A Herald needing to die before the lock kicks in.  

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

Per OB ch 38, they had to agree to let Fused back on Roshar. One of them had to allow them to return. They were tortured horribly (said even in prelude) by Voidspren or Fused

Thank you again, this really answers what I was looking for even further.

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

It was said either in AU or in RoW by Raboniel that nothing lives on the surface of Braize, only Splinters like Voidspren and Fused are there - this very likely means that Heralds weren't physical on Braize, they didn't have their body, or they were in CR of Braize - likely something very similar to what Kaladin experience in RoW, he wasn't on Braize with his body, but with his mind, which will still think it should feel pain. 

Also we know that Fused on Braize are supposed to be sleeping there awaiting new Return, and some, like Heavenly-ones, respect Heralds a lot - I don't think Fused were the one who tortured them

This is interesting.  I was listening to more Oathbringer today and the following stood out to me. 

Spoiler

In the scene where Dalinar has the Stormfather pull Venli into the vision w/ the younger Nohadon, one of her first questions was something along the lines of, "Is this a prison."  I found it interesting that she assumed she could be imprisoned by a vision.  Sounds kind of similar to how you are saying they might not be on Braize physically. 

Just did a quick search about visions and whether they take place in the CR or SR, this was the first thing that came up from the Coppermind, "Visions may be a type of pocket dimension in the Spiritual Realm and are considered a warping of the Realms. Due to this, time may slow in the Physical Realm when a vision is occurring. Visions do not change the past or create alternate timelines.

The SR kind of sounds like the "Dream Realm" they way it describes time slowing in the physical.

 

 

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

Keep in mind, Singers were the bodies needed for Fused to Return. Heralds would have to imprison every Singer alive to keep track of them all - and there were possibly tens of millions of them.

It almost seems like the original intent of the Oathpact was as much about preventing the genocide of the Singers/Parshendi as it was about protecting Humans.  

20 hours ago, Knightharrt said:

The Oathpact seems like a janky idea to me.

Now that I understand it better, I take back this comment.  

Thank you both for the info. 

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, Knightharrt said:

The SR kind of sounds like the "Dream Realm" they way it describes time slowing in the physical.

Not so much "dream realm" (though the pockets of Vision may be similar to that idea) as the SR is outside of time and place. Coppermind:

Spoiler

Space and Time

The Spiritual Realm is not a place.^[3] The Spiritual Realm is made up entirely of Investiture in the form of spiritwebs and the Connections between them.^[4][5] As such, time and space are "irrelevant" or "compounded into one" in the Spiritual Realm.^[6] This timelessness means that the Spiritual Realm breaks causality, but in a controlled way.^[7] Design remarked that time dilation was easier in the Spiritual Realm because time "flows like water into whatever container you provide".^[8]

 

[boolamoo]

On 7/13/2023 at 6:05 AM, alder24 said:

It was said either in AU or in RoW by Raboniel that nothing lives on the surface of Braize, only Splinters like Voidspren and Fused are there - this very likely means that Heralds weren't physical on Braize, they didn't have their body, or they were in CR of Braize - likely something very similar to what Kaladin experience in RoW, he wasn't on Braize with his body, but with his mind, which will still think it should feel pain. 

We have been told only Splinters live on Braize, but the Heralds are Cognitive Shadows and would probably fall under that description. I think they would physically be on Braize between desolations.