The Komashi/Shin Connection

[Prince Du Pain]

I know that I was not the only one who thought about this when reading through Yumi and the Nightmare Painter, and I have seen people mention a thing or two about it in various places, but I figured it would be good to compile thoughts all in one place. What are people's thoughts/opinions about the connections between the people of Komashi and the Shin people? There are just a few choices that seem too intentional to me to not have been on purpose. These are the few things that I have personally noticed about it.

Things suggesting there might be a connection:

• The people of Komashi use the honorific "-nimi" (At least they did 1700 years ago), just like we see Szeth do in Stormlight.
• Both the Komashi and the Shin do not walk on stone.

Things suggesting that there might NOT be a connection:

• We know that of the people groups on Roshar, the Komashi specifically look the most like Vedens who very much do NOT look like the Shin.
• The Komashi do not walk on stone because of its heat (they use clogs to elevate themselves off of the stone instead of touching it directly with their skin), whereas the Shin do not walk on stone because they view stone as holy and it would therefore be sacrilegious to do so. 

Now, on that last note, I do think it is interesting to take a look at the religion of Shinovar. It is stated that they do not worship stone itself, but the spirit of the stone. Considering that on Komashi, one, they have spirits, and two, the spirits are the ones who give heat to the ground, making it unable to be walked upon, I could see some distant connection between them and the Shin here that got warped through time and generations. This is without mentioning the fact that Komashi spirits are drawn in by the stacking of stones, adding more to why stones themselves would be seen as holy. On top of all of that, the religion of Shinovar sees the sun as the "god of gods" which seems to be a sentiment that very much would be agreed upon by people of Komashi because of the whole situation with the Shroud (given there would likely be some timeline issues with that).

BUT, all in all, there seem to be a lot of interesting connections between the Shin people, how they talk, and their religion and the Komashi. So, any thoughts on this? Anything I did not bring up or notice?

[AliasMcFakenames]

It’s important to note that Hoid is translating basically all of the dialogue except for occasionally the phrase “yoki-hijo” and that he is specifically doing so for a Rosharan audience. The -nimi honorific is likely just an extension of that. They certainly have a similar concept in Torio, but it would not be exactly the same word. They also do have stones which they routinely walk upon. The floors of their houses and the areas around and bottoms of the cool springs make for at least two off the top of my head.

I could maybe see a path to get there still. The Desolations were a long period of time when cultures mixed at Urithiru and there was relatively easy access to Shadesmar. Maybe a faction of Shin-traditionalist-Vedens (couldn’t just be Shin, since Cultivation’s investment on Roshar is the reason for all the local human adaptations) decided they were tired of the war and just struck out in a random direction with the idea that their ancestors left a dying planet, why not them? One of the cool springs could perhaps be a perpendicularity, and from there they could come through to the physical realm and settle down. On the modern Shadesmar map of Roshar, presumably during the time of the Shroud, it could easily be seen as the Expanse of the Broken Sky.

[Treamayne]

15 hours ago, Prince Du Pain said:

Things suggesting there might be a connection:

• The people of Komashi use the honorific "-nimi" (At least they did 1700 years ago), just like we see Szeth do in Stormlight.

5 hours ago, AliasMcFakenames said:

It’s important to note that Hoid is translating basically all of the dialogue except for occasionally the phrase “yoki-hijo” and that he is specifically doing so for a Rosharan audience. The -nimi honorific is likely just an extension of that. They certainly have a similar concept in Torio, but it would not be exactly the same word. They also do have stones which they routinely walk upon. The floors of their houses and the areas around and bottoms of the cool springs make for at least two off the top of my head.

^This^ Most likely - he used terms familiar to the audience (rather than the story's local term). WoB:

Spoiler

Grendergon

In [Yumi and the Nightmare Painter] chapter two, Yumi uses the phrase "Warden-nimi." Is there a connection between this and Szeth's use of "sword-nimi" in Stormlight? Or is Hoid just using a phrase that his audience would be familiar with.

Brandon Sanderson

He is using a phrase that his audience would be familiar with. But (asterisk), there's maybe a little bit more. When he is using the word "nimi" he is using the Shin word intentionally, right? But there's some more there. He's chosen to use a Shin phrase on purpose.

5 hours ago, AliasMcFakenames said:

it could easily be seen as the Expanse of the Broken Sky.

Most believe that Broken Sky is Taldain - but Sanderson will not confirm that:

Spoiler

Questioner

The Expanses, in the map: We already know that Densities is Sel, Vapors is Scadrial, Vibrance is... Nalthis, and Broken Sky is Taldain, right?

Brandon Sanderson

I have not confirmed that Broken Sky is Taldain.

Stormlightning

That's the only one you don't want to confirm?

Brandon Sanderson

I have not confirmed that... Don't want to.

So, it's possible. It's also possible that, since the Rosharan Shadesmar Map only labels the adjacent Shadesmar regions, Komashi's Shadesmar may not be Roshar adjacent. Example: Like a European Map focused on Germany with the edges labelled "To France," "To Italy," and "To Poland" but you would not find Spain labelled because it would be France Adjacent but not Germany Adjacent. 

Other considerations: They also reference Maipon Sticks (eating utensils from Sel - MaiPon and Jindo). Arguably, since the Selish nations are more directly influenced from the same "sources" as Komashi - the Torio peoples could have emmigrated from Sel to Komashi and he''s using Shin terms as a frame of reference for the audience. 

[AliasMcFakenames]

I agree that it’s probably not one of the adjacent expanses, just that if it is one Broken Sky seems the best fit, especially if the one-way holes in the shroud could be seen as holes in the sky in Shadesmar. And probably Sel is the more likely origin for humans there anyway if there is any connection to humans from another world.

[Firesong she/her]

17 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

^This^ Most likely - he used terms familiar to the audience (rather than the story's local term). WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

Grendergon

In [Yumi and the Nightmare Painter] chapter two, Yumi uses the phrase "Warden-nimi." Is there a connection between this and Szeth's use of "sword-nimi" in Stormlight? Or is Hoid just using a phrase that his audience would be familiar with.

Brandon Sanderson

He is using a phrase that his audience would be familiar with. But (asterisk), there's maybe a little bit more. When he is using the word "nimi" he is using the Shin word intentionally, right? But there's some more there. He's chosen to use a Shin phrase on purpose.

Most believe that Broken Sky is Taldain - but Sanderson will not confirm that:

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

The Expanses, in the map: We already know that Densities is Sel, Vapors is Scadrial, Vibrance is... Nalthis, and Broken Sky is Taldain, right?

Brandon Sanderson

I have not confirmed that Broken Sky is Taldain.

Stormlightning

That's the only one you don't want to confirm?

Brandon Sanderson

I have not confirmed that... Don't want to.

So, it's possible. It's also possible that, since the Rosharan Shadesmar Map only labels the adjacent Shadesmar regions, Komashi's Shadesmar may not be Roshar adjacent. Example: Like a European Map focused on Germany with the edges labelled "To France," "To Italy," and "To Poland" but you would not find Spain labelled because it would be France Adjacent but not Germany Adjacent. 

Other considerations: They also reference Maipon Sticks (eating utensils from Sel - MaiPon and Jindo). Arguably, since the Selish nations are more directly influenced from the same "sources" as Komashi - the Torio peoples could have emmigrated from Sel to Komashi and he''s using Shin terms as a frame of reference for the audience. 

The map supports it being Taldain, as if you overlap it with the expanses we know, Taldain is in Broken Sky. We also see Scarial, Sel, and Nalthis be either important in the story, or having some large presence in Shadesmar. Taldain is also relevant with the white sand being very relevant in RoW, and a bunch of letters in the epigraphs talking about Autonomy. 

So, I am pretty certain it is Taldain, but yes, Brandon has been avoiding it. (Not sure if he explicitly confirmed Vibrance either but like, come on, its obvious.)

 

And also, yes, Hoid is translating things. The honorific was just something that his audience would be familiar with. It mostly just means they have a honorific that they use, but we don't know what it is. Kind of like him saying maipon sticks, when they were actually different (probably like more normal chopsticks compared to the unique weirdness of maipon sticks)

Edited July 19, 2023 by Firesong

[Prince Du Pain]

22 hours ago, Firesong said:

The map supports it being Taldain, as if you overlap it with the expanses we know, Taldain is in Broken Sky. We also see Scarial, Sel, and Nalthis be either important in the story, or having some large presence in Shadesmar. Taldain is also relevant with the white sand being very relevant in RoW, and a bunch of letters in the epigraphs talking about Autonomy. 

So, I am pretty certain it is Taldain, but yes, Brandon has been avoiding it. (Not sure if he explicitly confirmed Vibrance either but like, come on, its obvious.)

 

And also, yes, Hoid is translating things. The honorific was just something that his audience would be familiar with. It mostly just means they have a honorific that they use, but we don't know what it is. Kind of like him saying maipon sticks, when they were actually different (probably like more normal chopsticks compared to the unique weirdness of maipon sticks)

Yeah, I think that all makes sense and is probably the most likely reason for it all. And the maipon sticks never being mentioned as an off-world term by Hoid at any point during the book I think is the biggest case to make for why this would not actually be anything significant. I just found the combination of the "-nimi" honorific only showing up in the old-timey Komashi mixed with the fact that there was some sort off cultural element of not walking on stone interesting. Brandon really loves the whole "this specific religious ritual/action actually comes from a history of practicality that got misunderstood and turned into some sort of religious thing over the course of generations" plot points, so I thought it would be interesting to bring up.

But yeah, it's probably nothing XD

[The Sibling she/her]

7 hours ago, Prince Du Pain said:

Brandon really loves the whole "this specific religious ritual/action actually comes from a history of practicality that got misunderstood and turned into some sort of religious thing over the course of generations" plot points

Are there other examples of this? (Probably there are and I just can't remember.)

7 hours ago, Prince Du Pain said:

so I thought it would be interesting to bring up.

I really love this idea! I know that the use of nimi was probably for the benefit of whoever he was telling the story to because Hoid was translating, but I still like the idea. It would be awesome if that's the reason that Shin people call rocks holy. One thing I would consider though is that both cultures might find rocks important for unrelated reasons. Maybe Brandon thought of a cool idea, and either consciously or subconsciously decided to use it twice.

[Treamayne]

On 7/20/2023 at 6:36 PM, The Sibling said:

Are there other examples of this? (Probably there are and I just can't remember.)

Vorin Safehand is probably the largest. Arts and Majesty separated the genders so that men performed two handed actions (war, building, farming, etc.) and women one-handed actions (writing, painting, etc.) - which led to covered non-dominant hands (as a reminder) - which led to the "safe hand" convention and a mix of cultural and religious prohibition on displaying their "safe hand."

Also implied (not confirmed):

Spoiler

Shin prohibition on stonewalking because:

After the emigration to Roshar, humans were supposed to remain "on the soil" (don't tred on naked stone) - which has developed into a complete relgion by the peoples that "never left the soil."

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[The Sibling she/her]

Just now, Treamayne said:

Vorin Safehand is probably the largest. Arts and Majesty separated the genders so that men performed two handed actions (war, building, farming, etc.) and women one-handed actions (writing, painting, etc.) - which led to covered non-dominant hands (as a reminder) - which led to the "saef hand" convention and a mix of cultural and religious prohibition on displaying their "safe hand."

 

That's interesting. I guess I sort of put that together but I never really thought about it. 

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

Spoiler

After the emigration to Roshar, humans were supposed to remain "on the soil" (don't tred on naked stone) - which has developed into a complete relgion by the peoples that "never left the soil."

 

Yeah that makes sense. I kind of like the theory about Yumi better but that actually makes sense.