Unmade and the Ten Essences

[Firesong she/her]

I have a theory that each Unmade corresponds to the Ten Essences, largely based on Sja-Anat and Nergaoul. They display traits of the Ten Essences and inversions of them. 

For Sja-Anat:

• She can only be seen in reflected light (Lucentia, which comes from a Latin word meaning "shining" or "becoming visible") 
• Her eyes in particular are described as glowing white, and we always focus on her eyes. Furthermore, we also got a focus on the eyes of some corrupted True Spren (The focus of Vev is the eyes)  
• Loving and Healing, she is shown to be a very loving mother to her corrupted children, she also sees it as a form of healing and enlightenment, a form of growth. She actively talks about how it is so similar to the Vorin doctrine of growth and becoming better, which is associated with Cultivation, and the type of Spren associated with Vev, Cultivationspren. Whilst others see it as the inverse of healing. (Loving and Healing) 
• Due to how she only is seen in reflected light, she makes herself known through reflections in glass and crystal (Glass and Crystal soulcasting focus) 

Thus, Sja-Anat is connected to Vev. 

Nergaoul

• Nergaoul brings forth the Thrill, which makes people extremely brave.
• I think I remember the Thrill being compared to a fire multiple times. 
• He was sealed within a ruby, which is the polestone of Chach. Furthermore, in a WoB, Brandon stated that Jezrien being sealed in a sapphire, the polestone of Jes, was completely intentional.
• Chach is closely associated with red (fire, Chanarach had red hair, rubies, the  symbol of Dustbringers is red, so is their Shardplate) and Nergaoul is notably a mass of red light and smoke
• "The Dustbringers believe that great power requires a strong will to control it, and their oaths are designed to teach them to control their destructive power. While their powers can be used to destroy large swaths of land, acting like artillery, they prefer to work in a more controlled and nuanced manner." The Thrill is basically a complete loss of will and control, mindless passion in ones destruction. It is the very opposite of the self-mastery and control that Dustbringers vie for. Thus it fits the inversion attribute. Nergaoul itself is notably lacking in control as well, being mindless, basically an emotion spren. 
• Like the ashy and gaseous nature of Ashspren, Nergaoul too takes the form of a gaseous substance.
• Chanarach is associated with protecting people, as you can see in various evocations of her name. While Nergaoul is basically all about hurting people. Thus, an inversion. 

Thus, I think Nergaoul is connected to Chach. 

Re-Shephir 

• Re-Shephir is a creator, with her midnight essence she makes many things. Much like the Shash aspect of Creativity (as in an act of creation). 
• For Honesty, she imitates others, copying their shape. This is essentially an inversion of honesty. 
• The Death Rattle about Re-Shephir was chosen to be in the month of Shash. (not the best evidence, but thought I would mention it)
• We see in the Gem Archive this statement, ""I am worried about the tower's protections failing. If we are not safe from the Unmade here, then where?", this (which obvious is about Re-Shephir), was actively from a Lightweaver, the order of Shash, and was thus recorded in a Garnet. Garnet being the polestone of Shash. 
• Re-Shephir is actively terrified by Lightweavers, the order off Shash. 

Thus, I think Re-Shephir is connected to Shash

Yelig-nar

• Yelig-nar causes the possessed person to start to transform into amethyst, the polestone of Kak.
• It is also contained within an amethyst, just like Nergaoul is contained within a ruby.

Thus, I think Yelig-nar is associated with Kak.

Ashertmarn:

• Ashertmarn basically makes people completely undependable and self-obsessed, so it is maybe an Inversion of the resoluteness and dependability of Stonewards "Throughout the world, they were widely known for being dependable, strong and filled with resolve, but also stubborn to a fault and prone to taking on projects larger than themselves". 
• Those under Ashertmarn are definitely not resourceful, they engage in such wasteful indulgence, and even with that indulgence, they still waste so much food, leaving it to rot. Thus, they are an inversion of resourcefulness. 
•  Stonewards serve as frontline troops, while Ashertmarn and those it effects hide away, far from battle, and ignore all conflict and even internal issues as the world collapses around them. 
• We saw Ashertmarn in Kholinar, which contains the Order of Talenelat. Kholinar was also the first place Taln warned after returning from Damnation. 

Thus, I think Ashertmarn is associated with Tat.

Chemoarish:

• She is conflated with the Nightwatcher, who is very similar in description to the Mistspren. I dunno, this one we have so little on it is hard to tell.

Thus, I think Chemoarish is maybe associated with Palah.

Moelach

• This is one I am having some trouble with. It might be with Palah, due to Moelach giving knowledge of the future, therefore Learned and Giving. But they are both corruptions as it only gives it to you at the end of your life, when you don't have any more time to actually use or hold that knowledge. 
• But it could also be about wise and careful. Giving wisdom of the future, whilst not being careful about what it shares or who it does it with. Hoid has said "be careful of anyone who claims to see the future", so it may be some inversion of careful. 
• On the idea of Betab, it only shares visions at the transition point between realms, and Elsecallers are all about transition between Realms. They are in act considered the best at this transition. 

Thus, I think Moelach is maybe associated with Palah or Betab. Learning towards Betab. 

Ba-ado-Mishram:

• She is very heavily implied to have been a corrupted Bondsmith Spren (in too many ways to get into right here), and is also deeply associated with the manipulating of Connection. So I feel she would be the Unmade of Bondsmiths. 
• She guided the Singers during the False Desolation, like the Bondsmith aspect of Guiding. She also was their commander in various other desolations, much like how Ishar, in the west, is considered the leader of the Heralds. 
• She was sealed away by a Bondsmith (like how Re-Shephir, of Shash, was scared away by two different Lightweavers)
• She is basically an inverse of pious, essentially trying to replace her god, Odium. This seems to reflect the way that Ishar, in his inversion of Piety, began to consider himself a God-Priest above all others. 

Thus I think Ba-ado-Mishram is associated with Ishi

 

Connection Theory:

I have noticed there are also some connections with where Unmade appear. 

In Kholinar we saw Ashertmarn, Sja-anat, and Yelig-nar around at the same time. So Tat, Vev, and Kak. If you look on the Surgebinding chart, Tat connects to Vev and Kak with lines. 

Yelig-nar and Nergaoul are also seen at the same place at Thaylen Field, and Kak and Chach are also directly connected. 

More on these connections, there is a theory that The Bondsmith Spren all are actually meant to be orders adjacent to Bondsmiths. The Sibling is a stone tower and stands for Stonewards, Stormfather is Windrunners for obvious reasons, and Nightwatcher is Truthwatchers, again, for obvious reasons. Well, Re-Shephir is Shash, which connects to Tat, and guess what, Re-Shephir was hiding away in Urithiru, by the Sibling's core. Thus giving further evidence to this connection theory. 

[Aeoryi she/her]

29 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I have a theory that each Unmade corresponds to the Ten Essences, largely based on Sja-Anat and Nergaoul. They display traits of the Ten Essences and inversions of them. 

For Sja-Anat:

• She can only be seen in reflected light (Lucentia, which comes from a Latin word meaning "shining" or "becoming visible") 
• Her eyes in particular are described as glowing white, and we always focus on her eyes. Furthermore, we also got a focus on the eyes of some corrupted True Spren (The focus of Vev is the eyes)  
• Loving and Healing, she is shown to be a very loving mother to her corrupted children, she also sees it as a form of healing and enlightenment, a form of growth. She actively talks about how it is so similar to the Vorin doctrine of growth and becoming better, which is associated with Cultivation, and the type of Spren associated with Vev, Cultivationspren. Whilst others see it as the inverse of healing. (Loving and Healing) 
• Due to how she only is seen in reflected light, she makes herself known through reflections in glass and crystal (Glass and Crystal soulcasting focus) 

Thus, Sja-Anat is connected to Vev. 

Nergaoul

• Nergaoul brings forth the Thrill, which makes people extremely brave.
• I think I remember the Thrill being compared to a fire multiple times. 
• He was sealed within a ruby, which is the polestone of Chach. Furthermore, in a WoB, Brandon stated that Jezrien being sealed in a sapphire, the polestone of Jes, was completely intentional.
• Chach is closely associated with red (fire, Chanarach had red hair, rubies, the  symbol of Dustbringers is red, so is their Shardplate) and Nergaoul is notably a mass of red light and smoke
• "The Dustbringers believe that great power requires a strong will to control it, and their oaths are designed to teach them to control their destructive power. While their powers can be used to destroy large swaths of land, acting like artillery, they prefer to work in a more controlled and nuanced manner." The Thrill is basically a complete loss of will and control, mindless passion in ones destruction. It is the very opposite of the self-mastery and control that Dustbringers vie for. Thus it fits the inversion attribute. Nergaoul itself is notably lacking in control as well, being mindless, basically an emotion spren. 
• Like the ashy and gaseous nature of Ashspren, Nergaoul too takes the form of a gaseous substance.
• Chanarach is associated with protecting people, as you can see in various evocations of her name. While Nergaoul is basically all about hurting people. Thus, an inversion. 

Thus, I think Nergaoul is connected to Chach. 

Re-Shephir 

• Re-Shephir is a creator, with her midnight essence she makes many things. Much like the Shash aspect of Creativity (as in an act of creation). 
• For Honesty, she imitates others, copying their shape. This is essentially an inversion of honesty. 
• The Death Rattle about Re-Shephir was chosen to be in the month of Shash. (not the best evidence, but thought I would mention it)
• We see in the Gem Archive this statement, ""I am worried about the tower's protections failing. If we are not safe from the Unmade here, then where?", this (which obvious is about Re-Shephir), was actively from a Lightweaver, the order of Shash, and was thus recorded in a Garnet. Garnet being the polestone of Shash. 
• Re-Shephir is actively terrified by Lightweavers, the order off Shash. 

Thus, I think Re-Shephir is connected to Shash

Yelig-nar

• Yelig-nar causes the possessed person to start to transform into amethyst, the polestone of Kak.
• It is also contained within an amethyst, just like Nergaoul is contained within a ruby.

Thus, I think Yelig-nar is associated with Kak.

Ashertmarn:

• Ashertmarn basically makes people completely undependable and self-obsessed, so it is maybe an Inversion of the resoluteness and dependability of Stonewards "Throughout the world, they were widely known for being dependable, strong and filled with resolve, but also stubborn to a fault and prone to taking on projects larger than themselves". 
• Those under Ashertmarn are definitely not resourceful, they engage in such wasteful indulgence, and even with that indulgence, they still waste so much food, leaving it to rot. Thus, they are an inversion of resourcefulness. 
•  Stonewards serve as frontline troops, while Ashertmarn and those it effects hide away, far from battle, and ignore all conflict and even internal issues as the world collapses around them. 
• We saw Ashertmarn in Kholinar, which contains the Order of Talenelat. Kholinar was also the first place Taln warned after returning from Damnation. 

Thus, I think Ashertmarn is associated with Tat.

Chemoarish:

• She is conflated with the Nightwatcher, who is very similar in description to the Mistspren. I dunno, this one we have so little on it is hard to tell.

Thus, I think Chemoarish is maybe associated with Palah.

Moelach

• This is one I am having some trouble with. It might be with Palah, due to Moelach giving knowledge of the future, therefore Learned and Giving. But they are both corruptions as it only gives it to you at the end of your life, when you don't have any more time to actually use or hold that knowledge. 
• But it could also be about wise and careful. Giving wisdom of the future, whilst not being careful about what it shares or who it does it with. Hoid has said "be careful of anyone who claims to see the future", so it may be some inversion of careful. 
• On the idea of Betab, it only shares visions at the transition point between realms, and Elsecallers are all about transition between Realms. They are in act considered the best at this transition. 

Thus, I think Moelach is maybe associated with Palah or Betab. Learning towards Betab. 

Ba-ado-Mishram:

• She is very heavily implied to have been a corrupted Bondsmith Spren (in too many ways to get into right here), and is also deeply associated with the manipulating of Connection. So I feel she would be the Unmade of Bondsmiths. 
• She guided the Singers during the False Desolation, like the Bondsmith aspect of Guiding. She also was their commander in various other desolations, much like how Ishar, in the west, is considered the leader of the Heralds. 
• She was sealed away by a Bondsmith (like how Re-Shephir, of Shash, was scared away by two different Lightweavers)
• She is basically an inverse of pious, essentially trying to replace her god, Odium. This seems to reflect the way that Ishar, in his inversion of Piety, began to consider himself a God-Priest above all others. 

Thus I think Ba-ado-Mishram is associated with Ishi

 

Connection Theory:

I have noticed there are also some connections with where Unmade appear. 

In Kholinar we saw Ashertmarn, Sja-anat, and Yelig-nar around at the same time. So Tat, Vev, and Kak. If you look on the Surgebinding chart, Tat connects to Vev and Kak with lines. 

Yelig-nar and Nergaoul are also seen at the same place at Thaylen Field, and Kak and Chach are also directly connected. 

More on these connections, there is a theory that The Bondsmith Spren all are actually meant to be orders adjacent to Bondsmiths. The Sibling is a stone tower and stands for Stonewards, Stormfather is Windrunners for obvious reasons, and Nightwatcher is Truthwatchers, again, for obvious reasons. Well, Re-Shephir is Shash, which connects to Tat, and guess what, Re-Shephir was hiding away in Urithiru, by the Sibling's core. Thus giving further evidence to this connection theory. 

What about theoretical unmade sibling? How does that affect this theory?

[Quantus he/him]

Devil's Advocate Statement (just to get it out of the way):The Essences do correspond 1:1 to the Heralds and Orders, and we have WOB that the unmade do not correlate 1:1 to either of those.  But to be fair one says they arent correlated to heralds, and another kinda says they do.  

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

asmodeus (paraphrased)

Would the Unmade correspond to the various Knight Radiant Orders by philosophy? Would Odium's champion be his equivalent to the Bondsmiths?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, the varieties of the Fused do that. It's not 1-to-1, but think of the Unmade as the analogs of Heralds. Odium has no Bondsmith Analog.  

Footnote: Brandon specifically used the spelling "analog." The capitalization is also replicated.
General Reddit 2019 (Jan. 1, 2019)

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Are the Unmade the analogs to Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson

There is certainly something similar going on there. Be aware that it's not a one-to-one correlation, that they're not exactly the same. For instance: Many of the- the Unmade are referenced by Taravangian in this, and he uses a phrase for them, and that is correct, that's what they are.

Footnote: In the epigraph for WoR 81 the Diagram says "The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth your time. You cannot help but think of them. They are fascinating. Many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty. I do believe a few can think, however."
Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014)

 

 

 

Quote

 

XS-Terrain

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

 

 

 

 

[Firesong she/her]

25 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Devil's Advocate Statement (just to get it out of the way):The Essences do correspond 1:1 to the Heralds and Orders, and we have WOB that the unmade do not correlate 1:1 to either of those.  But to be fair one says they arent correlated to heralds, and another kinda says they do.  

 

He is inconsistent on them correlating, so I will go with them correlating as there is a lot of evidence in the text for that (especially the gemstone connections). 

So I guess that BAM would be Windrunners instead of Bondsmiths. I just assumed Bondsmiths due to being a leader, and being able to manipulate Connection. But Windrunners *are* also connected to ideas of leadership and have a lot of Squires they give power to. So BAM does also work as a Windrunner analogue. 

[alder24]

This is great. Amazing work. We've known since OB that Unmades correspond to a specific gemstone but actually doing the work to figure it out is so much better.

I have just two small points: you've missed Dai-Gonarthis (there is almost nothing known about him) and:

46 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Ba-ado-Mishram:

• She is very heavily implied to have been a corrupted Bondsmith Spren (in too many ways to get into right here), and is also deeply associated with the manipulating of Connection. So I feel she would be the Unmade of Bondsmiths. 
• She guided the Singers during the False Desolation, like the Bondsmith aspect of Guiding. She also was their commander in various other desolations, much like how Ishar, in the west, is considered the leader of the Heralds. 
• She was sealed away by a Bondsmith (like how Re-Shephir, of Shash, was scared away by two different Lightweavers)
• She is basically an inverse of pious, essentially trying to replace her god, Odium. This seems to reflect the way that Ishar, in his inversion of Piety, began to consider himself a God-Priest above all others. 

Thus I think Ba-ado-Mishram is associated with Ishi

I'm not sure about this one. While BAM is unique among Unmades, a Highprice of some sort, able to connect to the whole nation of Singers, we have a WoB that the order of Bondsmith didn't have a corresponding Unmade. Also Thrill was sealed by a Bondsmith too (personal connection matters).

We know BAM was a leader of Odium's forces during Desolations, which fits to Jezrien who was a king. Her ability to connect to Singers might resemble Windrunners ability to have more squires than other orders.

Spoiler

XS-Terrain

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

 

Spoiler

OddyFan

Did Dalinar use his Bondsmith abilities to catch Nergaoul?

Brandon Sanderson

What happened here has happened before, but a Bondsmith was involved then too. However, Dalinar's personal connection to the Unmade was very important.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 27, 2018)

 

53 minutes ago, Firesong said:

there is a theory that The Bondsmith Spren all are actually meant to be orders adjacent to Bondsmiths

I've missed that one.

53 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Nightwatcher is Truthwatchers, again, for obvious reasons

Why not Edgedancers? She is a spren of Cultivation and she cultivate people.

 

Also there is this WoB, which you might find useful:

Spoiler

Starmie21

An image of my theory the unmade positions in Voidbinding chart

Could u tell me if atleast one of the unmade positions in the figure is right, or of the figure itself is wrong and I'm barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

I like what you're doing here [in associating the Unmade with positions on the Voidbinding chart], but I have to stamp a big RAFO on questions like this for now. (Sorry.)

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 28, 2020)

[Firesong she/her]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

This is great. Amazing work. We've known since OB that Unmades correspond to a specific gemstone but actually doing the work to figure it out is so much better.

I have just two small points: you've missed Dai-Gonarthis (there is almost nothing known about him) and:

I'm not sure about this one. While BAM is unique among Unmades, a Highprice of some sort, able to connect to the whole nation of Singers, we have a WoB that the order of Bondsmith didn't have a corresponding Unmade. Also Thrill was sealed by a Bondsmith too (personal connection matters).

We know BAM was a leader of Odium's forces during Desolations, which fits to Jezrien who was a king. Her ability to connect to Singers might resemble Windrunners ability to have more squires than other orders.

  Reveal hidden contents

XS-Terrain

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

OddyFan

Did Dalinar use his Bondsmith abilities to catch Nergaoul?

Brandon Sanderson

What happened here has happened before, but a Bondsmith was involved then too. However, Dalinar's personal connection to the Unmade was very important.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 27, 2018)

 

I've missed that one.

Why not Edgedancers? She is a spren of Cultivation and she cultivate people.

 

Also there is this WoB, which you might find useful:

  Hide contents

Starmie21

An image of my theory the unmade positions in Voidbinding chart

Could u tell me if atleast one of the unmade positions in the figure is right, or of the figure itself is wrong and I'm barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

I like what you're doing here [in associating the Unmade with positions on the Voidbinding chart], but I have to stamp a big RAFO on questions like this for now. (Sorry.)

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 28, 2020)

I talked about a lot of these in a different message. I agree with a lot. 

I purposely excluded Dai-Gonarthis for the exact reasons you mention. I didn't have enough to even try theorizing. 

And on Truthwatchers, just due to how much she is similar to Mistspren, with the face being solid and mask-like but everything else being weird. Also, Truthwatchers are definitely special in their location on the Surgebinding chart, directly opposite to Bondsmiths. 

 

[Quantus he/him]

7 minutes ago, Firesong said:

He is inconsistent on them correlating, so I will go with them correlating as there is a lot of evidence in the text for that (especially the gemstone connections). 

So I guess that BAM would be Windrunners instead of Bondsmiths. I just assumed Bondsmiths due to being a leader, and being able to manipulate Connection. But Windrunners *are* also connected to ideas of leadership and have a lot of Squires they give power to. So BAM does also work as a Windrunner analogue. 

Also Windrunners have the "connection Surge" that the fused lack.  

I suspect successfully UnMaking the Sibling would have created the tenth option, the Godspren/Bondsmith analog for the UnMade.  Though by the same token I suspect there's an Everstorm spren that could play that part too.  

[Firesong she/her]

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Also Windrunners have the "connection Surge" that the fused lack.  

I suspect successfully UnMaking the Sibling would have created the tenth option, the Godspren/Bondsmith analog for the UnMade.  Though by the same token I suspect there's an Everstorm spren that could play that part too.  

Perhaps.

And yes, there is 100% some sort of Everstorm Spren. 

what if its the stormfather?

[Quantus he/him]

8 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Perhaps.

And yes, there is 100% some sort of Everstorm Spren. 

what if its the stormfather?

This is just a sidenote: but Im convinced there are now "slots" (for lack of a better word) for a total of Six Bondsmiths, now that Odium is properly Invested.  One per Pure Light, and one per theoretical Hybrid Light. 

[Firesong she/her]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

This is just a sidenote: but Im convinced there are now "slots" (for lack of a better word) for a total of Six Bondsmiths, now that Odium is properly Invested.  One per Pure Light, and one per theoretical Hybrid Light. 

Perhaps. 

Also, Sixth of Dusk Sequel Preview Spoilers,  Mistborn Era 1 ending spoilers, and theory on the ending of Stormlight

Spoiler

The Rosharan was clearly described as having both blue and violet light. I feel this confirms one of my other theories on how Odium will fuse with the remains of Honor. 

This fits with us being shown a hybrid of Odium and Honor lights, it was in fact the first Hybrid Light we saw, the first to show it was possible. And the idea stated a lot in RoW of Humans and Singers joining together. And Brandon saying we will have a definite answer on the remains of Honor by SA5. I feel Dalinar loses, Odium consumes the remains of Honor, becomes a new Hybrid Shard, "The Broken One". 

This could be furthered by how much it is emphasized that Rayse wants to avoid being corrupted at all. I don't think Taravangian would care as much about that. He would be willing to sacrifice himself for what he thinks is the betterment of the world. 

I actually kinda hope that happens. It could be a cool inverse of the end of Mistborn Era 1. In Era 1, a being took up two Shards and saved the world. In this, a being would take up two, and bring the world to ruin. It would also be an epic ending for the first half of the series. 

This would explain the need for 5 more books after SA5. 

 

 

[Aeoryi she/her]

16 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Perhaps. 

Also, Sixth of Dusk Sequel Preview Spoilers,  Mistborn Era 1 ending spoilers, and theory on the ending of Stormlight

  Hide contents

The Rosharan was clearly described as having both blue and violet light. I feel this confirms one of my other theories on how Odium will fuse with the remains of Honor. 

This fits with us being shown a hybrid of Odium and Honor lights, it was in fact the first Hybrid Light we saw, the first to show it was possible. And the idea stated a lot in RoW of Humans and Singers joining together. And Brandon saying we will have a definite answer on the remains of Honor by SA5. I feel Dalinar loses, Odium consumes the remains of Honor, becomes a new Hybrid Shard, "The Broken One". 

This could be furthered by how much it is emphasized that Rayse wants to avoid being corrupted at all. I don't think Taravangian would care as much about that. He would be willing to sacrifice himself for what he thinks is the betterment of the world. 

I actually kinda hope that happens. It could be a cool inverse of the end of Mistborn Era 1. In Era 1, a being took up two Shards and saved the world. In this, a being would take up two, and bring the world to ruin. It would also be an epic ending for the first half of the series. 

This would explain the need for 5 more books after SA5. 

 

 

I think that cultivation is going to get in the way of that plan. 

It should be noted that there is no odium-cultivation hybrid light yet, and that might signal something about cultivation and odium's relation

Also, since the concept of harmony scares odium, it is likely that he will merge himself with honor IF he thinks he will come out on top.

Cultivation wouldn't like that though, because then they are being left out, and are weaker than the new OdiumHonor hybrid. So cultivation would probably prevent that. 

Maybe by sacrificing themself? Just like what Vin did to Ruin? That would also make sense why lift is on the path to being the next cultivation (although that's just a theory.)

 

 

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

I have a theory that each Unmade corresponds to the Ten Essences, largely based on Sja-Anat and Nergaoul. They display traits of the Ten Essences and inversions of them

Good theory, well done.

I was thinking (in a similar line to your theory) that the Unmade were more related to a Surge. If you follow Raboniel's line of thinking that Adhesion isn't "true" (hence nine brands of Fused); then each Unmade would exhibit connections and correlations to two Radiant orders based on the shared Surge. Example:

• Nergaoul > Division > Revenge (subversion of Justice) / Wonton destruction (Subversion of Controlled Entropy) 

This would also tie in the WoB that teh Unmade are like a Herald Analog - and Fused Brands only have 1 surge each (and one "Patron" Unmade for that Brand)

[Firesong she/her]

9 minutes ago, Aeoliae said:

I think that cultivation is going to get in the way of that plan. 

It should be noted that there is no odium-cultivation hybrid light yet, and that might signal something about cultivation and odium's relation

Also, since the concept of harmony scares odium, it is likely that he will merge himself with honor IF he thinks he will come out on top.

Cultivation wouldn't like that though, because then they are being left out, and are weaker than the new OdiumHonor hybrid. So cultivation would probably prevent that. 

Maybe by sacrificing themself? Just like what Vin did to Ruin? That would also make sense why lift is on the path to being the next cultivation (although that's just a theory.)

 

 

It scares Rayse, not Odium. I feel that Taravangian would have a very different view on the idea. 

Another possible piece of foreshadowing, is that he becomes the king of two different nations before his Ascension. Might foreshadow him being a Vessel of two Shards later. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Firesong

[alder24]

51 minutes ago, Firesong said:

This fits with us being shown a hybrid of Odium and Honor lights, it was in fact the first Hybrid Light we saw, the first to show it was possible. And the idea stated a lot in RoW of Humans and Singers joining together. And Brandon saying we will have a definite answer on the remains of Honor by SA5. I feel Dalinar loses, Odium consumes the remains of Honor, becomes a new Hybrid Shard, "The Broken One". 

This could be furthered by how much it is emphasized that Rayse wants to avoid being corrupted at all. I don't think Taravangian would care as much about that. He would be willing to sacrifice himself for what he thinks is the betterment of the world. 

21 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Another possible piece of foreshadowing, is that he becomes the king of two different nations before his Ascension. Might foreshadow him being a Vessel of two Shards later. 

You think Cultivation's words about Taravangian bearing the Shard of Odium with Honor were literal? Well I'm already on board with Honor and Odium combining, I've always thought it will be Dalinar as he is both of Honor and Odium (called by Cultivation child of Honor, child of Odium), and has lifelong connections to both. However I thought this would happen later, in the second part of SA, with Dalinar or Kaladin's Ascension to Honor happening in SA 5. But you've made a great point, now I think Taravangian is a valid candidate to bear Odium with Honor literally. RoW ch 113:

Quote

"That I had changed you into someone who could bear this power with honor.”

 

27 minutes ago, Firesong said:

It scares Rayse, not Odium. I feel that Taravangian would have a very different view on the idea. 

You might be right. Odium by nature is selfish, Rayse was selfish too, together they fear any change. Taravangian is nothing but selfless. He sacrifices everything for a slim chance of saving even a fraction of Roshar. He might be able to overcome the selfish nature of Odium and force his will on it, seeing use in becoming a Dual Shard.

Mistborn spoiler WoB:

Spoiler

Autarchk

If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?

Brandon Sanderson

They were two shards.

Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

General Reddit 2013 (March 14, 2013)

 

[Firesong she/her]

20 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You think Cultivation's words about Taravangian bearing the Shard of Odium with Honor were literal? Well I'm already on board with Honor and Odium combining, I've always thought it will be Dalinar as he is both of Honor and Odium (called by Cultivation child of Honor, child of Odium), and has lifelong connections to both. However I thought this would happen later, in the second part of SA, with Dalinar or Kaladin's Ascension to Honor happening in SA 5. But you've made a great point, now I think Taravangian is a valid candidate to bear Odium with Honor literally. RoW ch 113:

 

You might be right. Odium by nature is selfish, Rayse was selfish too, together they fear any change. Taravangian is nothing but selfless. He sacrifices everything for a slim chance of saving even a fraction of Roshar. He might be able to overcome the selfish nature of Odium and force his will on it, seeing use in becoming a Dual Shard.

Mistborn spoiler WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

Autarchk

If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?

Brandon Sanderson

They were two shards.

Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

General Reddit 2013 (March 14, 2013)

 

I forgot she said that, that definitely supports my idea even more, and I already had a lot of reasons to believe that Odium and Honor would fuse (a lot I didn't mention here), but if they don't, we at least know that they are definitely gonna either lose, or it would be a pyrrhic victory where like, half the planet dies, and Odium is sealed away for 15 years. Either way, it is not gonna be a happy ending, with all those Death Rattles along with a lot of other evidence. Even the mere fact this is only the halfway point suggests it. 

I am excited for KoWaT, but also scared as it seems to be entering the part of the series where a lot of people are going to start dying and the apocalypse is close at hand. (there are literally like, 5 different death rattles about humanity losing, our chances of the protagonists winning are not good). 

Hope we get more on the more hidden Unmade in SA5. I don't mean BAM, we already know we are getting more on her. But like, Dai-gonarthis, Moelach, and Chemoarish. Especially the first and third, which we know nothing about. Moelach we know a little, but ultimately know close to nothing beyond "it gives death rattles". Dai-gonarthis interests me the most, in how they are likely envolved in the Scouring of Aimia. 

We will likely get more on Moelach in Book 4.5, as we know Moelach moved to the Horneater Peaks.  

My theory, maybe Odium sent Dai-gonarthis to Aimia to try and get the Dawnshard, as some things in the books, and a WoB, seem to imply that Dawnshards are involved in Splintering. Like, one part (forgot where, forgive me), there was a quote that implied that Odium was weaker and not as much of a threat without a Dawnshard. And in one WoB, somebody asked about a Shard with a Dawnshard and Brandon said the combination would be terrifying.  So, maybe Odium had a Dawnshard, used that to Splinter Shards. Thus he wanted it back. This likely was what brought the Scouring, and would imply that Dai-gonarthis is one of his more higher-ranking Unmade. 

 

[Aeoryi she/her]

17 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I forgot she said that, that definitely supports my idea even more, and I already had a lot of reasons to believe that Odium and Honor would fuse (a lot I didn't mention here), but if they don't, we at least know that they are definitely gonna either lose, or it would be a pyrrhic victory where like, half the planet dies, and Odium is sealed away for 15 years. Either way, it is not gonna be a happy ending, with all those Death Rattles along with a lot of other evidence. Even the mere fact this is only the halfway point suggests it. 

I am excited for KoWaT, but also scared as it seems to be entering the part of the series where a lot of people are going to start dying and the apocalypse is close at hand. (there are literally like, 5 different death rattles about humanity losing, our chances of the protagonists winning are not good). 

Hope we get more on the more hidden Unmade in SA5. I don't mean BAM, we already know we are getting more on her. But like, Dai-gonarthis, Moelach, and Chemoarish. Especially the first and third, which we know nothing about. Moelach we know a little, but ultimately know close to nothing beyond "it gives death rattles". Dai-gonarthis interests me the most, in how they are likely envolved in the Scouring of Aimia. 

We will likely get more on Moelach in Book 4.5, as we know Moelach moved to the Horneater Peaks.  

My theory, maybe Odium sent Dai-gonarthis to Aimia to try and get the Dawnshard, as some things in the books, and a WoB, seem to imply that Dawnshards are involved in Splintering. Like, one part (forgot where, forgive me), there was a quote that implied that Odium was weaker and not as much of a threat without a Dawnshard. And in one WoB, somebody asked about a Shard with a Dawnshard and Brandon said the combination would be terrifying.  So, maybe Odium had a Dawnshard, used that to Splinter Shards. Thus he wanted it back. This likely was what brought the Scouring, and would imply that Dai-gonarthis is one of his more higher-ranking Unmade. 

 

Dai-gonarthis is also called the faceless.

He appears to be having his own agenda, but I think that it has something to do with emotion.

All the unmade are after all, have some sort of connection to emotions, and odium's light is said to enflame emotions.

I sincerely doubt that unmade (aside from BAM) will play a big role in SA5. They seem like big powerful beings that odium just uses to smash his enemies, rather than the unmade having tactical use for their special powers. 

Most of the unmade have been fairly quiet recently, and that doesn't really scare me. The unmade seem to go dormant after they do literally anything, so don't expect more knowledge about unmade until The back half of SA

[Firesong she/her]

9 minutes ago, Aeoliae said:

Dai-gonarthis is also called the faceless.

He appears to be having his own agenda, but I think that it has something to do with emotion.

All the unmade are after all, have some sort of connection to emotions, and odium's light is said to enflame emotions.

I sincerely doubt that unmade (aside from BAM) will play a big role in SA5. They seem like big powerful beings that odium just uses to smash his enemies, rather than the unmade having tactical use for their special powers. 

Most of the unmade have been fairly quiet recently, and that doesn't really scare me. The unmade seem to go dormant after they do literally anything, so don't expect more knowledge about unmade until The back half of SA

Sja-anat we know has all of her own plans, and she is connected with the Spren of Rlain and Renarin, who are both going to be playing a bigger role. 

IIrc, there is also an Unmade that fled to Shinovar, which is where Kaladin and Szeth's stories will take place. 

So, I feel that at least BAM, Sja-anat, and the one in Shinovar would be playing a significant role. 

But I doubt that Dai-gonarthis or such will be playing much of a role, yeah. 

[Aeoryi she/her]

3 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Sja-anat we know has all of her own plans, and she is connected with the Spren of Rlain and Renarin, who are both going to be playing a bigger role. 

IIrc, there is also an Unmade that fled to Shinovar, which is where Kaladin and Szeth's stories will take place. 

So, I feel that at least BAM, Sja-anat, and the one in Shinovar would be playing a significant role. 

But I doubt that Dai-gonarthis or such will be playing much of a role, yeah. 

That's the big problem with the unmade: they seem like names on a list.

All the heralds we know have some sort of interesting influence on roshar, but the unmade don't really do anything.

We know that BAM, the heart dude, Neragoul, Moelach, Sja anit, Re-sepchir and Yelignar are all involved in one event, but beyond that they really don't matter. It would be interesting to see the unmade be more involved with things but unfortunately they seem like plot excuses. 

I would love to know what Chaemorash or The black fisher can do, I think they have some interesting potential in SA second half, but the unmade currently don't seem to follow any pattern, and really aren't worth think about until they become relevant again 

[Firesong she/her]

3 minutes ago, Aeoliae said:

That's the big problem with the unmade: they seem like names on a list.

All the heralds we know have some sort of interesting influence on roshar, but the unmade don't really do anything.

We know that BAM, the heart dude, Neragoul, Moelach, Sja anit, Re-sepchir and Yelignar are all involved in one event, but beyond that they really don't matter. It would be interesting to see the unmade be more involved with things but unfortunately they seem like plot excuses. 

I would love to know what Chaemorash or The black fisher can do, I think they have some interesting potential in SA second half, but the unmade currently don't seem to follow any pattern, and really aren't worth think about until they become relevant again 

I would disagree there. 

Sja-anat really interests me in her worldview and in how she is secretly working against Odium, and Nergaoul was quite relevant to Dalinar's arc and a lot of Rosharan history in general. Re-Shephir is really interesting in her connection to the Midnight Essence. Moelach is interesting in interpreting the meaning of the Death Rattles and what they imply for future events, and wondering what it is doing at the Horneater peaks. 

Outside of those ones, yeah, the others do feel more like just names, due to how little we have of them. 

[Aeoryi she/her]

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

I would disagree there. 

Sja-anat really interests me in her worldview and in how she is secretly working against Odium, and Nergaoul was quite relevant to Dalinar's arc and a lot of Rosharan history in general. Re-Shephir is really interesting in her connection to the Midnight Essence. Moelach is interesting in interpreting the meaning of the Death Rattles and what they imply for future events, and wondering what it is doing at the Horneater peaks. 

Outside of those ones, yeah, the others do feel more like just names, due to how little we have of them. 

Do you think unmade are related to the voidbinding ?

That's my leading theory, but I want another opinion.

[Firesong she/her]

2 minutes ago, Aeoliae said:

Do you think unmade are related to the voidbinding ?

That's my leading theory, but I want another opinion.

They definitely would have some relation, but I am really interested in what Voidbinding is. 

For a while we thought it would be what Voidbringers used, but it just, isn't. The Fused use just modified Surgebinding. Which makes me more curious about what the hell Voidbinding is. 

I do hope we go more into it in SA5, with the greater Renarin focus we will be getting. As current theories posit that he is a Voidbinder. 

Brandon's cageyness about literally anything to do with Voidbinding just makes me even more curious.  

[Aeoryi she/her]

Just now, Firesong said:

They definitely would have some relation, but I am really interested in what Voidbinding is. 

For a while we thought it would be what Voidbringers used, but it just, isn't. The Fused use just modified Surgebinding. Which makes me more curious about what the hell Voidbinding is. 

I do hope we go more into it in SA5, with the greater Renarin focus we will be getting. As current theories posit that he is a Voidbinder. 

Brandon's cageyness about literally anything to do with Voidbinding just makes me even more curious.  

I do think that one of the big reveals will be that spren can voidbind, not people. I saw it posted by someone, and I have to say, it makes sense.

[Firesong she/her]

14 minutes ago, Aeoliae said:

I do think that one of the big reveals will be that spren can voidbind, not people. I saw it posted by someone, and I have to say, it makes sense.

Whatever it is, it is going to be a very massive reveal, I presume. Given how long the reveal is taking, mixed with how much he refuses to say, telling us we will see it eventually. 

Like, what is it Brandon? Please, answer us. 

All we know:

• It usually is associated with the Unmade
• It is associated with telling the future
• There are ten forms of it
• It is associated with using Stormlight to power abilities different from normal Surgebinding, but that that idea is only "close to" what Voidbinding actually is
• It is not the Surges used by Fused

Past that, it is RAFOs all the way down. 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Firesong

[Aeoryi she/her]

I think spren can voidbind, not people makes sense.

Voidspren use people, whereas Radiants use their spren. 

Renarin is implied to have a Gemheart

The map for voidbinding is colored like Shadesmar, and the map for Surgebinding is colored like the roshar map.

Glys has implied he can see the future farther than renarin.

Those all make sense as to spren can voidbind, not people.

[Firesong she/her]

2 minutes ago, Aeoliae said:

I think spren can voidbind, not people makes sense.

Voidspren use people, whereas Radiants use their spren. 

Renarin is implied to have a Gemheart

The map for voidbinding is colored like Shadesmar, and the map for Surgebinding is colored like the roshar map.

Glys has implied he can see the future farther than renarin.

Those all make sense as to spren can voidbind, not people.

What implied Renarin has a gemheart? I forgot any implications towards that, can you elaborate?