Avatars Autonomy, trell, telsin

[bmcclure7]

Ok so I was confused at first but I have a theory to explain it. 

So trel is said to be male avatar but telsin is female?

This confused me might here is how I think it works.  

Autonomy makes a male avatar on taldan name trell, that avatar ascends and now is also a holder of the shard Autonomy. 

 

After he ascends he begins to make a avatar of himself telsin. 

 

Dose this theory make sense lore with the lore we have on avatars?

[Quantus he/him]

The actual/original vessel is named Bavadin, and she still holds the Shard itself. There are two flavors of avatar that she makes, but they are both still Connected to the main Autonomy.  That's their Irony, they arent truly Autonomous.  They are instead Connected to the real Autonomy and Empowered by her.  They are a little like how somebody can take up the Well and get Shard-like powers without actually taking the Shard itself from it's Vessel. 

from the Coppermind:

Quote

 

Like all Shards,^[17] Autonomy is able to create avatars -- semi-autonomous entities that wield a portion of Autonomy's power without being wholly separate from Autonomy herself. Autonomy creates two types of avatars. One type are pieces of Autonomy that have been allowed to gain their own sentience, becoming effectively alternate identities of herself. The other are Physical beings that have been granted the use of a portion of Autonomy's power, and becoming a Sliver of her.^[1][18] Physical avatars benefit from becoming Invested, granting them immortality, as well as incredible healing and resilience.^[19] However, they require a Connection to Autonomy herself in order to benefit from their status as an avatar; interrupting and cutting off that Connection leads them to lose the power.^[18] While they are connected and begin to become a sliver, they also begin to take on Autonomy's intent, similar to full Shard wielders.^[18][2]

Avatars, both made and Invested, can be of any gender, race and species, including fully inhuman ones.^[20] They are considered to be Shards of Adonalsium, in a way.^[5] Autonomy can create avatars on different planets in the cosmere without physically visiting them.^[21] Avatars can also form without a direct and conscious decision on Autonomy's part, but she will always be aware of this happening.^[22]

Through this process, Autonomy has created several personas, both male and female; she has more female personas than male ones, though the latter are also quite popular. She prefers to make her avatars rather than herself the center of attention.^[20]

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Quantus

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Ok so I was confused at first but I have a theory to explain it. 

So trel is said to be male avatar but telsin is female?

This confused me might here is how I think it works.  

Autonomy makes a male avatar on taldan name trell, that avatar ascends and now is also a holder of the shard Autonomy. 

 

After he ascends he begins to make a avatar of himself telsin. 

 

Dose this theory make sense lore with the lore we have on avatars?

Is the person Trell from White Sand the same as Trell from Scadrial? Trell on Scadrial is at least 1000 years old. 

I don't think Autonomy can be held by multiple Vessels, at least not on Shard level. Bavadin still holds Autonomy, said in TLM epilogue as Sazed called Trellium Bavadinium (and possible in other places too). Avatars are somewhat autonomous parts of Autonomy and one can Ascend to them, be their Vessel. Avatar can change Vessels. And I think that's what happened - Trell from pre-Rashek Scadrial got "killed" or was retracted by Autonomy and Telsin was going to Ascend to Trell in Era 2.

Spoiler

Questioner

So Bavadin's avatars, right; Autonomy's avatars.

Brandon Sanderson

One of Bavadin's avatars. 

Questioner

Of those avatars, are some or all of them actual Splinters of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

The terminology gets kind of sticky here. In Cosmere terms, some would say that counts as Splinters, some would say not. The avatars aren't necessarily aware but Bavadin always is. A lot of people in Cosmere would call that a Splinter. 

Questioner

My follow up to that would be, is it possible for a person to Ascend and become a Vessel of one of those Splinters?  

Brandon Sanderson

That is plausible. Yes. It could happen. It would be tough because they will have personalities of their own and so something would need to happen... but yeah.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Alex M

What's the difference between avatar and Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

These are all very weird terms that I'm just using.

*mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing.

An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do.

Brandon Sanderson

*realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies*

A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions  - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Pod

The combination of a Shard and its Vessel leads to sapient mind with access to a virtually infinite pool of Investiture. Are avatars the product of a similar combination of a mind and a pool of Investiture, only on a smaller scale, with less power?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that is an accurate representation of what an avatar is. It’s not the only way, but it is an accurate... some avatars are that. I would say that’s the standard.  

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

[bmcclure7]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Is the person Trell from White Sand the same as Trell from Scadrial? Trell on Scadrial is at least 1000 years old. 

I don't think Autonomy can be held by multiple Vessels, at least not on Shard level. Bavadin still holds Autonomy, said in TLM epilogue as Sazed called Trellium Bavadinium (and possible in other places too). Avatars are somewhat autonomous parts of Autonomy and one can Ascend to them, be their Vessel. Avatar can change Vessels. And I think that's what happened - Trell from pre-Rashek Scadrial got "killed" or was retracted by Autonomy and Telsin was going to Ascend to Trell in Era 2.

  Hide contents

Questioner

So Bavadin's avatars, right; Autonomy's avatars.

Brandon Sanderson

One of Bavadin's avatars. 

Questioner

Of those avatars, are some or all of them actual Splinters of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

The terminology gets kind of sticky here. In Cosmere terms, some would say that counts as Splinters, some would say not. The avatars aren't necessarily aware but Bavadin always is. A lot of people in Cosmere would call that a Splinter. 

Questioner

My follow up to that would be, is it possible for a person to Ascend and become a Vessel of one of those Splinters?  

Brandon Sanderson

That is plausible. Yes. It could happen. It would be tough because they will have personalities of their own and so something would need to happen... but yeah.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

  Hide contents

Alex M

What's the difference between avatar and Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

These are all very weird terms that I'm just using.

*mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing.

An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do.

Brandon Sanderson

*realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies*

A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions  - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

  Hide contents

Pod

The combination of a Shard and its Vessel leads to sapient mind with access to a virtually infinite pool of Investiture. Are avatars the product of a similar combination of a mind and a pool of Investiture, only on a smaller scale, with less power?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that is an accurate representation of what an avatar is. It’s not the only way, but it is an accurate... some avatars are that. I would say that’s the standard.  

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

They all share Identity with Autonomy so I'm not sure it would count as multiple holders,  more like the many different face of Shallan.

Admittedly Veil doesn't lightweave but there is nothing stomping her from doing so and if she did we wouldn't say patern was bonded to two knights.  

 

If the there can all be bonded to pattern surely all the avatars can me connect to the shards.  

Edited July 24, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Firesong she/her]

I just thought that she sent an Avatar Trell, that was what was encroaching on the system. And through that they began to turn Telsin into an Avatar. So, I feel Trell and Telsin are different entities. Not the exact same one. I feel the idea of "ascending to Trell" is based around their own understanding of what Trell is, rather than it being the exact same thing. 

And also, everything that Alder said. 

 

[Vissy]

The way I understand Autonomy, she's very twisted. It's all ultimately meant to empower the Shard's own autonomy - many tiny pieces making avatars to gather more power.

[Treamayne]

On 7/24/2023 at 5:38 PM, bmcclure7 said:

Autonomy makes a male avatar on taldan name trell,

White Sand Spoilers

Spoiler

Autonomy's Avatar on the Taldain Dayside is The Sand Lord

On 7/24/2023 at 5:59 PM, alder24 said:

Is the person Trell from White Sand the same as Trell from Scadrial? Trell on Scadrial is at least 1000 years old. 

More WS Spoilers

Spoiler

The human named Trell was a name drop as foreshadowing that the Scadrian Trelagism Trell was Autonomy (Taldain Name)

Quote

Questioner

Who is Trell?

Brandon Sanderson

Trell? Depends on who you ask.

Questioner

He is the god that Wax... *inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

Or a random person on Taldain, or someone referenced in Era 2, there are lots of different things that Trell could be.

 

On 7/24/2023 at 6:10 PM, Firesong said:

I just thought that she sent an Avatar Trell, that was what was encroaching on the system.

Autonomy's MO is to seed a diety's name (Trell in this case) so that later she can create an avatar to "fill the role." So, the most likely scenario, is that Autonomy seeded the name Trell before TLR went to the Well (but did not actually invest or make an Avatar which would have been "found" by Ati, Leras, or both). The Nelezan peoples that had the idea seeded were the ones to attribute a gender (and Bavadin doesn't care, since she routinely makes Avatars of all genders). Post-Catacendre, she began to invest in a Trell Avatar - and because Bavadin doesn't care about gender - it makes no difference if the Avatar's vessel was male or female. We don't know if there was originally supposed to be a different Vessel for Trell (or no Vessel at all, since an Avatar does not necessarily need a Vessel); but Telsin was eventually selected to become the Vessel for the Trell Avatar on Scadrial. 

We all know how that turned out (so far). . . 

Elantris Spoilers

Spoiler

It's theorized that this is the same thing she is doing on Sel - having either seeded Jaddeth (or just coopting the existing "belief") but may now be creating a Jaddeth Avatar on Sel to manipulate Wyrn and the Fjordel Empire. 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Firesong she/her]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

White Sand Spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Autonomy's Avatar on the Taldain Dayside is The Sand Lord

More WS Spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

The human named Trell was a name drop as foreshadowing that the Scadrian Trelism Trell was Autonomy (Taldain Name)

 

Autonomy's MO is to see a diety's name (Trell in this case) so that later she can create an avatar to "fill the role." So, the most likely scenario, is that Autonomy seeded the name Trell before TLR went to the Well (but did not actually invest or make an Avatar which would have been "found" by Ati, Leras, or both). The Nelezan peoples that had the idea seeded were the ones to attribute a gender (and Bavadin doesn't care, since she routinely makes Avatars of all genders). Post-Catacendre, she began to invest in a Trell Avatar - and because Bavadin doesn't care about gender - it makes no difference if the Avatar's vessel was male or female. We don't know if there was originally supposed to be a different Vessel for Trell (or no Vessel at all, since an Avatar does not necessarily need a Vessel); but Telsin was eventually selected to become the Vessel for the Trell Avatar on Scadrial. 

We all know how that turned out (so far). . . 

Elantris Spoilers

  Hide contents

It's theorized that this is the same thing she is doing on Sel - having either seeded Jaddeth (or just coopting the existing "belief") but may now be creating a Jaddeth Avatar on Sel to manipulate Wyrn and the Fjordel Empire. 

 

My own headcanon, which I feel is pretty supported by the text, is that Bavadin doesn't care due to being Genderfluid. Given you see things like Brandon saying gender isn't really constant as far as Bavadin is concerned, he is fine referring to her as both a he/him and she/her. And the text had Shai even say about Bavadin themselves "He, she, they, it varies". So, I pretty solidly believe that they are genderfluid. 

[Treamayne]

7 minutes ago, Firesong said:

My own headcanon, which I feel is pretty supported by the text, is that Bavadin doesn't care due to being Genderfluid. Given you see things like Brandon saying gender isn't really constant as far as Bavadin is concerned, he is fine referring to her as both a he/him and she/her. And the text had Shai even say about Bavadin themselves "He, she, they, it varies". So, I pretty solidly believe that they are genderfluid. 

Here's the WoB:

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

emailanimal

[Brandon] must have had enough of chuckles every time someone referred to Bavadin as a "he" over the past few years.....

Brandon Sanderson

Bavadin has several male personas, and has often appeared as male for one purpose or another, so it's not that much of an issue. She has more female personas, but some of the male ones are quite popular.

This won't be relevant for a long while, but as a service to the community, let me say this: try not to get too hung up on gender, race, or even human appearance where Bavadin is concerned. There are some peoples who worship entire pantheons where every member is actually her.

 

Coppermind:

Quote

Bavadin has a habit of taking on multiple forms and appearances. She has several male and female personas, and will often present herself as different people to the same culture; although she is usually referred to with feminine pronouns, gender, as well as race and other qualities, are fluid where she is concerned.

 

We probably won't know for sure if the Vessel was fluid before ascending until we get to Dragonsteel.

[Firesong she/her]

Just now, Treamayne said:

Here's the WoB:

  Hide contents

 

Coppermind:

 

We probably won't know for sure if the Vessel was fluid before ascending until we get to Dragonsteel.

Unless we get a far more active role with them in Era 3, which I feel we will as Trell was actually meant to be the Era 3 main threat, and that Era 2 was mainly just to build up the idea more and build up Scadrian history and Post-Catacendre history more. So, she is gonna be much more present in Era 3. 

If we don't though, yeah, would be Dragonsteel.  

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

White Sand Spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Autonomy's Avatar on the Taldain Dayside is The Sand Lord

More WS Spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

The human named Trell was a name drop as foreshadowing that the Scadrian Trelagism Trell was Autonomy (Taldain Name)

 

Autonomy's MO is to seed a diety's name (Trell in this case) so that later she can create an avatar to "fill the role." So, the most likely scenario, is that Autonomy seeded the name Trell before TLR went to the Well (but did not actually invest or make an Avatar which would have been "found" by Ati, Leras, or both). The Nelezan peoples that had the idea seeded were the ones to attribute a gender (and Bavadin doesn't care, since she routinely makes Avatars of all genders). Post-Catacendre, she began to invest in a Trell Avatar - and because Bavadin doesn't care about gender - it makes no difference if the Avatar's vessel was male or female. We don't know if there was originally supposed to be a different Vessel for Trell (or no Vessel at all, since an Avatar does not necessarily need a Vessel); but Telsin was eventually selected to become the Vessel for the Trell Avatar on Scadrial. 

We all know how that turned out (so far). . . 

Elantris Spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

It's theorized that this is the same thing she is doing on Sel - having either seeded Jaddeth (or just coopting the existing "belief") but may now be creating a Jaddeth Avatar on Sel to manipulate Wyrn and the Fjordel Empire. 

 

1. No one said she can't make two avatars in the same place.

2. There has to be more to it then that why did harmony describe trel as a male avatar? Why did Autonomy specifically say she is not trel?

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. No one said she can't make two avatars in the same place.

She can definitely do that. Apparently, there are worlds with entire pantheons that are just Avatars of her.

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. There has to be more to it then that why did harmony describe trel as a male avatar? Why did Autonomy specifically say she is not trel?

It helps if you can quote the exact passages where that's being said, context matters a lot