Confusion about the metallic arts

[Cauvel22]

Originally I thought allomancy was the art of preservation, hemalurgy was ruin's, and feruchemy was just kind of there. Later I read something that said allomancy was ruins magic due to it destroying the metal used which made sense to me because hemalurgy was a cosmere-wide thing. Now I've come around to thinking that feruchemy is purely preservation, hemalurgy is wholly from ruin, and then allomancy is the combination of the two. It preserves the user and destroys the metal kind of a thing. This would then also make sense as to why both God metals, atium and lerasium, both have to do with allomancy instead of their respective gods magic. My question now is why hemalurgy is a cosmere-wide magic when ruin is now harmony. Please also let me know if my understanding of the metallic arts is flawed in any way. 

[Quantus he/him]

Welcome to the Shard!

Yeah, that thing you read was simply wrong (See the WOB below).  The magic systems arise from complex and poorly understood interactions between the Shard, the Planet, and its population. Since Ruin and Preservation are still both present on the planet and just happen to be held by the same dude, the magic system itself doesnt get overly disrupted (though Harmony did make a few conscious changes). 

 

As far as how Ruin's magic works everywhere, All the 16 shards technically have some amount of presence everywhere they are reflected, which really means everywhere in the cosmere. The previously Mortal vessel that holds them, on the other hand, are a little more limited in what they can actually perceive and channel and are generally only watching the happenings of their Invested world. 

It's also worth noting that several magics are reflections of Pre-shattering Magic systems.  Metal being significant cosmere-wide is one of those things, and I would not be surprised to learn that some version of Hemalurgy existed before Ruin (and Scadrial) were created.  

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Allomancy is of Preservation, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes...

Questioner

What are Feruchemy and Hemalurgy of?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy is definitely of Ruin.

Questioner

Is it of pure Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That's a very Ruin thing. And Feruchemy is more of a blend. Though… there is more philosophy to that and human construct—like the Allomantic table—than I think I’ve made clear before.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Quantus

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Cauvel22 said:

Originally I thought allomancy was the art of preservation, hemalurgy was ruin's, and feruchemy was just kind of there. Later I read something that said allomancy was ruins magic due to it destroying the metal used which made sense to me because hemalurgy was a cosmere-wide thing. Now I've come around to thinking that feruchemy is purely preservation, hemalurgy is wholly from ruin, and then allomancy is the combination of the two. It preserves the user and destroys the metal kind of a thing. This would then also make sense as to why both God metals, atium and lerasium, both have to do with allomancy instead of their respective gods magic. My question now is why hemalurgy is a cosmere-wide magic when ruin is now harmony. Please also let me know if my understanding of the metallic arts is flawed in any way. 

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Don't confuse god metals with Allomancy. All god metals are burnable by "anyone" and produce some Allomantic effect, it's the nature of god metals. Atium is of Ruin and as a god metal it is pure investiture concentrated in a physical form, thus it provides fuel for Atium and Malatium effects, and it doesn't pull investiture from Shards.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Atium's Mechanism

Atium is, indeed, different from the other metals. When you burn most Allomantic metals, it opens a conduit through which you can draw upon Preservation's power and use it in very specific ways.

Atium doesn't do that. Atium is, itself, a fuel. When you burn it, the metal itself provides the power. A subtle distinction, I know, but it has to do with where the power is coming from. Most Allomancy is fueled by Preservation, but atium and malatium are fueled by Ruin.

This metal doesn't quite belong on the table where it has been placed.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 1, 2010)

 

The way in which Allomancy is associated with Preservation isn't because of what metals can do, but how the power is obtained. Allomancy is a gift which preserves people's strength, with power being granted by Preservation directly. Hemalurgy on the other hand always damages, not only the donor's soul killing them, but also the receiver of a spike too. Feruchemy is the combination of those two - it's a gift, you're using your own strength, you're getting weaker to preserve your strength later.

Spoiler

Chaos

Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things?

Brandon Sanderson

One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift--allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.

/r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011)

 

Hemalurgy can be used by everybody anywhere in Cosmere because that's the nature of Ruin, he affects the whole Cosmere as he represents universal decay.

Spoiler

Questioner

I'm trying to understand the relationship between Hemalurgy and the Shard Ruin. Most of the Invested Arts involve inputs of energy of the Shardic Investiture that corresponds to it. That doesn't seem to be the case for Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. So I'm wondering what the relationship is between the corresponding Shards and those two Metallic Arts.

Brandon Sanderson

There's a whole lot going on here, and I'm not sure how much I can get into right here. But one of the basic concepts I built for the cosmere, way back when, was that a lot of the different magics would be showing up in different systems. And there are certain underpinning fundamental rules. And this is why you'll see Lightweaving working the same way across three different magic systems; I think you've seen it in three different ones so far. Elsecalling's gonna work the same way. Hemalurgy is a thing that is, like, part of the nature of the cosmere, that the Shard simply knew and was able to tell people how to do

So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it. But it could be discovered on other planets, as well.

Questioner

And independent of Ruin's presence, really, except for as Ruin affects the cosmere as a whole?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Exactly. You are correct.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

asmodeus

You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets.

I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it.

Footnote: It was a really fun one.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Both Allomancy and Feruchemy can also be used anywhere in Cosmere but only by those who already are Allomancers and Feruchemist. 

All Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

The only magic systems, which are location depended, are on Sel, and that's because of unique circumstances. Most can be used anywhere in Cosmere once you figure some stuff up (like how to leave a world with your spren).

Spoiler

Questioner

So we know that you can't just have someone-- If someone were to do something similar to Hoid, he can't just pop and go "Oh look, I can now do Allomancy or I can now do Surgebinding". What about Breath? If someone could somebody get Breath-- Maybe not *audio obscured* Could they still get the benefits of--

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, good question... Yes you can, actually. Breath is-- Once it is given to you, it is being keyed to you. Your Identity. So that transfer makes it yours to use however you want.

Questioner

So you could Awaken?

Brandon Sanderson

You could Awaken. If you-- If you were to somehow make it there, you would be able to Awaken. It's the easiest of magic systems to get the magic from, and then to manipulate. Because it has keyed into it Identity.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you can take Breath onto another world. In fact, you've seen characters do this.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

It would work, yes.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it would work the same way.

The only magic that is location-dependent--  The ones who aren't interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? *laughter* You don't need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I write them so that you could just-- each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep.

So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it's stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they're keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection. Mostly Connection. So that means you can't do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they're drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they're end-neutral, like Breath is, and you don't need any extra power.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by alder24

[Beodrakis he/him]

On 7/27/2023 at 7:36 AM, alder24 said:

Don't confuse god metals with Allomancy. All god metals are burnable by "anyone" and produce some Allomantic effect, it's the nature of god metals. Atium is of Ruin and as a god metal it is pure investiture concentrated in a physical form, thus it provides fuel for Atium and Malatium effects, and it doesn't pull investiture from Shards.

If god metals are burnable by anyone, why isn't everyone an atium seer? in HoA, only a small portion of the humans could burn atium to fight the kolloss.

[Firesong she/her]

10 minutes ago, Beodrakis said:

If god metals are burnable by anyone, why isn't everyone an atium seer? in HoA, only a small portion of the humans could burn atium to fight the kolloss.

The Atium formed in the Pits of Hathsin was an Electrum alloy, which made it so that you need to be able to burn Electrum to use it. The Atium Mistings were actually electrum alloys. If you look at the Allomancy and Hemalurgy posters, they talk about "Pure Atium" and how Hemalurgic Atium "must be refined", it is due to this. Pure Atium has a similar effect of seeing the future, but the shadows come from it being an alloy with Electrum, in its pure form it just lets you see straight into the future as you gaze into the Spiritual Realm. 

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Beodrakis said:

If god metals are burnable by anyone, why isn't everyone an atium seer? in HoA, only a small portion of the humans could burn atium to fight the kolloss.

I wrote "anyone" because there are conflicting WoBs on that one. It might be that only Allomancers can burn pure god metals, or any people with sufficient connection to them or literally anyone in the Cosmere. We don't know for sure yet. The idea is that "anyone" should be able to burn god metals, whoever is included in that "anyone" is still the question.

[Firesong she/her]

49 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I wrote "anyone" because there are conflicting WoBs on that one. It might be that only Allomancers can burn pure god metals, or any people with sufficient connection to them or literally anyone in the Cosmere. We don't know for sure yet. The idea is that "anyone" should be able to burn god metals, whoever is included in that "anyone" is still the question.

I feel that Lerasium implies non-Alllomancers can. But it could just be that Lerasium is weird. 

[Treamayne]

19 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I feel that Lerasium implies non-Alllomancers can. But it could just be that Lerasium is weird. 

Or Lerasium requires a Connection to Scadrial and/or Leras (Elend in the Former - Hoid in the later)

[Firesong she/her]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

Or Lerasium requires a Connection to Scadrial and/or Leras (Elend in the Former - Hoid in the later)

Brandon has said before burning God Metals does require a Connection to the Shard, yeah. 

I can't wait to see the Allomantic and Feruchemical effects of Harmonium and Bavadium. I am 100% sure we will get that in Era 3, but I am impatient. I guess that we kinda saw Feruchemical-like effects of Harmonium, with it copying nearby powers, but that wasn't really true Feruchemy, just a weird extra trait that Harmonium has. LIke how Trellium repels Investiture, and (Stormlight RoW Spoilers)

Spoiler

Raysium conducts Investiture

So, yeah, curious to see it expanded upon. Also to get Feruchemical Lerasium. 

[alder24]

59 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I feel that Lerasium implies non-Alllomancers can. But it could just be that Lerasium is weird. 

Might be. As I said there are conflicting WoBs. And Lerasium is even weirder as Lerasium making somebody into a Mistborn is only its side effect, Mistborn burning it would have a different effect (which tends to suggest god metals are burnable by Allomancers only, possibly with Connection to the Shard).

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Eight

Preservation's Power

All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply.

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.

Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed.

Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive.

Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy.

As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 12, 2009)

 

36 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I can't wait to see the Allomantic and Feruchemical effects of Harmonium

Allomantic effect of Harmonium? I think that's death for now 

[Firesong she/her]

Just now, alder24 said:

Might be. As I said there are conflicting WoBs. And Lerasium is even weirder as Lerasium making somebody into a Mistborn is only its side effect, Mistborn burning it would have a different effect (which tends to suggest god metals are burnable by Allomancers only, possibly with Connection to the Shard).

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Eight

Preservation's Power

All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply.

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.

Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed.

Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive.

Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy.

As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 12, 2009)

 

Allomantic effect of Harmonium? I think that's death for now 

I wonder if you could use it by like, getting a towel and drying off your tongue and mouth enough that it is basically as dry as it can be. 

I also do wonder, would it become even more unstable when Harmony is Discord by Era 3. (I definitely feel Saze is gonna fully turn by Era 3, they are really building it up lately, and technically have been since The Final Empire)

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I also do wonder, would it become even more unstable when Harmony is Discord by Era 3. (I definitely feel Saze is gonna fully turn by Era 3, they are really building it up lately, and technically have been since The Final Empire)

I think that would make it stable. I think that Harmonium is so unstable because it represents Sazed's inability and conflict to balance Preservation and Ruin as Harmony. After he changes into Discord stability is no longer required, he embraces instability and thus there is no conflict anymore, making Harmonium stable. 

Edited July 28, 2023 by alder24