How Cosmere-Aware do you think the Court of Gods was?

[Cocoa he/him]

I've been fiddling around with an attempt to place Warbreaker in the larger Cosmere timeline recently, and that led to me trying to figure this question out.

We know for a fact that the Five Scholars were Worldhoppers and fairly Cosmere-aware, both via WoB and because they hacked Awakening to create a Shardblade. So at this point we know that there were Nalthian Worldhoppers at least before the Manywar, who most likely passed through Endowment's perpendicularity in Hallendren since that's the easiest known method for most people to reach the CR. If I remember correctly, there was also mention of Nalthian traders in RoW, which we know takes place after Warbreaker (though due to Vasher's immortal nature and the possibility of Vivenna extending her life with Breaths, we don't know how far after).

The trouble comes in that we don't know how open the 5 Scholars were with their knowledge, like how the Ghostbloods existing doesn't translate to the Elendel government being especially Cosmere-aware. We also know for a fact that at least some of their legacy has been forgotten; i.e. people forgetting that the D'denir statues were Kalad's phantoms.

My best guess is that in establishing the Court of Gods, Vasher entrusted the highest rung of authority with the knowledge that there's a gateway to other worlds out in the jungle so that they wouldn't be completely caught off-guard if another shardworld launched an invasion, unless he decided to withhold that info to lower the risk of more Nightbloods getting created. But even if he did tell them, then there's still the question of whether or not that knowledge survived the deaths of Susebron's predecessors and then the deaths of his priests during the Pahn Kahl revolt.

The other option I can imagine is that some of the court is Cosmere-aware, but it's treated like the lifeless command codes; the knowledge is restricted to a handful of returned, so that they can shape policy with the larger Cosmere in mind without turning Nalthis into an expansionist force.

[Firesong she/her]

22 minutes ago, Cocoa said:

I've been fiddling around with an attempt to place Warbreaker in the larger Cosmere timeline recently, and that led to me trying to figure this question out.

We know for a fact that the Five Scholars were Worldhoppers and fairly Cosmere-aware, both via WoB and because they hacked Awakening to create a Shardblade. So at this point we know that there were Nalthian Worldhoppers at least before the Manywar, who most likely passed through Endowment's perpendicularity in Hallendren since that's the easiest known method for most people to reach the CR. If I remember correctly, there was also mention of Nalthian traders in RoW, which we know takes place after Warbreaker (though due to Vasher's immortal nature and the possibility of Vivenna extending her life with Breaths, we don't know how far after).

The trouble comes in that we don't know how open the 5 Scholars were with their knowledge, like how the Ghostbloods existing doesn't translate to the Elendel government being especially Cosmere-aware. We also know for a fact that at least some of their legacy has been forgotten; i.e. people forgetting that the D'denir statues were Kalad's phantoms.

My best guess is that in establishing the Court of Gods, Vasher entrusted the highest rung of authority with the knowledge that there's a gateway to other worlds out in the jungle so that they wouldn't be completely caught off-guard if another shardworld launched an invasion, unless he decided to withhold that info to lower the risk of more Nightbloods getting created. But even if he did tell them, then there's still the question of whether or not that knowledge survived the deaths of Susebron's predecessors and then the deaths of his priests during the Pahn Kahl revolt.

The other option I can imagine is that some of the court is Cosmere-aware, but it's treated like the lifeless command codes; the knowledge is restricted to a handful of returned, so that they can shape policy with the larger Cosmere in mind without turning Nalthis into an expansionist force.

Brandon said The Way of Kings is not that long after Warbreaker, just a few generations. 

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, Cocoa said:

The other option I can imagine is that some of the court is Cosmere-aware, but it's treated like the lifeless command codes; the knowledge is restricted to a handful of returned, so that they can shape policy with the larger Cosmere in mind without turning Nalthis into an expansionist force.

There has to be some level of Cosmere awareness at the time of Oathbringer (ch 102), since we saw the nine shadows painting in Celebrant that "was smuggled from the Court of Gods."

Spoiler

Kaladin had never had much time for art. Either the picture depicted something useful—like a map—or it was basically pointless. And yet, nestled among the paintings for display was a small one painted from thick strokes of oil. White and red, with lines of black. When he looked away, he found himself drawn back toward it, studying the way the highlights played off those dark lines.

Like nine shadows … he thought. With a figure kneeling in the middle … <scene end>

Kaladin stepped up to the painting. The ones beside it showed far more technical prowess—they were capable portraits, perfectly capturing their human subjects. This one was sloppy by comparison. It looked like the painter had simply taken a knife covered in paint and slopped it onto the canvas, making general shapes.

Haunting, beautiful shapes. Mostly reds and whites, but with a figure at the center, throwing out nine shadows …

Dalinar, he thought. <snip>

“It’s a unique piece, human,” she said. “From the far-off Court of Gods, a painting intended only for a divinity to see. It is exceptionally rare that one escapes being burned at the court, and makes its way onto the market.”

 

[Quantus he/him]

Per WOB, some of the scholars on Nalthis are closer to understanding realmics, etc than anyone who isnt an outright worldhopper.  But there are a lot of different cultures on Nalthis, and the Court seemed to be one of the more oppressively decadent ones that hid a lot of knowledge from everyone including themselves in the name of their religion.  Im sure there were individuals who new more within it's borders, but all the things they'd forgotten was thematically a big part of their downfall overall.  

 

EDIT: 

 

Quote

 

luckat

What is something that you would have put in the Nalthian essay if you had one in there?

Brandon Sanderson

I probably would have talked about how close some of these scholars are on Nalthis to understanding all of this. They're probably the closest to understanding the nature of the cosmere of anyone outside of the people who are actually worldhoppers. I probably also would have given some hints where the pool is.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

  Edited July 28, 2023 by Quantus

[drunkenbotanist]

We know there's a Nalthian customs that tries to keep people with too many breaths from leaving, per WOB 

[alder24]

19 hours ago, Cocoa said:

I've been fiddling around with an attempt to place Warbreaker in the larger Cosmere timeline recently, and that led to me trying to figure this question out.

We know for a fact that the Five Scholars were Worldhoppers and fairly Cosmere-aware, both via WoB and because they hacked Awakening to create a Shardblade. So at this point we know that there were Nalthian Worldhoppers at least before the Manywar, who most likely passed through Endowment's perpendicularity in Hallendren since that's the easiest known method for most people to reach the CR. If I remember correctly, there was also mention of Nalthian traders in RoW, which we know takes place after Warbreaker (though due to Vasher's immortal nature and the possibility of Vivenna extending her life with Breaths, we don't know how far after).

The trouble comes in that we don't know how open the 5 Scholars were with their knowledge, like how the Ghostbloods existing doesn't translate to the Elendel government being especially Cosmere-aware. We also know for a fact that at least some of their legacy has been forgotten; i.e. people forgetting that the D'denir statues were Kalad's phantoms.

My best guess is that in establishing the Court of Gods, Vasher entrusted the highest rung of authority with the knowledge that there's a gateway to other worlds out in the jungle so that they wouldn't be completely caught off-guard if another shardworld launched an invasion, unless he decided to withhold that info to lower the risk of more Nightbloods getting created. But even if he did tell them, then there's still the question of whether or not that knowledge survived the deaths of Susebron's predecessors and then the deaths of his priests during the Pahn Kahl revolt.

The other option I can imagine is that some of the court is Cosmere-aware, but it's treated like the lifeless command codes; the knowledge is restricted to a handful of returned, so that they can shape policy with the larger Cosmere in mind without turning Nalthis into an expansionist force.

 

There are customs on Nalthian perpendicularity, so even if Returned aren't that aware of it, many of their priests would be, especially those around the God-King. They know about trade off-world, other worlds and and stuff like that. The knowledge likely isn't that common among regular Nalthians even in Hallandren, but still significant for some to bother with trading off world or trying to leave with Breaths. Maybe this is known for some more educated class of citizens.

Spoiler

Lotus

If one was worldhopping to Nalthis, what type of customs would they have to go through?

Brandon Sanderson

*Laughs* Nalthis customs? There'll be some tariffs to pay depending on what's going on. It is kind of not that different from what you would imagine. What I have read about in sort of Renaissance times, like pay your fees and things like that. But there's not really something you have to worry about... quarantines because of the disease factor, it's just not on their radar for the reasons I've explained. They don't have to worry about that. Like, dangerous items, what sort of dangerous items are you talking about, right? I do think they try to prevent people with Breaths from leaving the planet, particularly lots of them. Getting off I would say is a little more tricky because they do not want the Breath bleed of Investiture leaving their planet, but I think you will find some notable examples of it happening, so. They are not impossible to dodge, those customs.

Footnote: The "reasons I've explained" that Brandon mentions is referring to this WoB.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

since we saw the nine shadows painting in Celebrant that "was smuggled from the Court of Gods."

This painting was actually intended to be the same as the one Lightsong saw in Warbreaker:

Spoiler

R'Shara

The two paintings--The Battle of Twilight Falls, and the one that Kaladin sees in Shadesmar. Are they the same?

Brandon Sanderson

I believe that they are, but I could have...When I wrote the original scene, I intended them to be, but I might have changed something later on. They would be by the same artist. You can say yes, unless I changed something. There was something I was thinking of changing. I'd have to go back and look at them side by side.

R'Shara

But they sounded different. One has black in it, that the other one doesn't.

Brandon Sanderson

The thing is, that artist, and people seeing it, I intend them to each see something different in the paintings they see. But I don't know that I actually decided to make that the same painting. But the same artist.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Warbreaker ch 26:

Spoiler

Quote

 

Lightsong stared at the painting.
Red upon red, shades so subtle that the paint er must have been of the First Heightening at least. Violent, terrible reds, clashing against one another like waves—waves that only vaguely resembled men, yet that somehow managed to convey the idea of armies fighting much better than any detailed realistic depiction could have.
Chaos. Bloody wounds upon bloody uniforms upon bloody skin. There was so much violence in red. His own color. He almost felt as if he were in the painting—felt its turmoil shaking him, disorienting him, pulling on him.
The waves of men pointed toward one figure at the center. A woman, vaguely depicted by a couple of curved brushstrokes. And yet it was obvious. She stood high, as if atop a cresting wave of crashing soldiers, caught in midmotion, head flung back, her arm upraised.
Holding a deep black sword that darkened the red sky around it.
“The Battle of Twilight Falls,” Llarimar said quietly, standing beside him in the white hallway. “Last conflict of the Manywar.”

[...]

“Don’t burn that painting. Keep it for my collection.”

 

 

 

[Treamayne]

55 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There are customs on Nalthian perpendicularity, so even if Returned aren't that aware of it, many of their priests would be, especially those around the God-King. They know about trade off-world, other worlds and and stuff like that. The knowledge likely isn't that common among regular Nalthians even in Hallandren, but still significant for some to bother with trading off world or trying to leave with Breaths. Maybe this is known for some more educated class of citizens.

  Hide contents

Lotus

If one was worldhopping to Nalthis, what type of customs would they have to go through?

Brandon Sanderson

*Laughs* Nalthis customs? There'll be some tariffs to pay depending on what's going on. It is kind of not that different from what you would imagine. What I have read about in sort of Renaissance times, like pay your fees and things like that. But there's not really something you have to worry about... quarantines because of the disease factor, it's just not on their radar for the reasons I've explained. They don't have to worry about that. Like, dangerous items, what sort of dangerous items are you talking about, right? I do think they try to prevent people with Breaths from leaving the planet, particularly lots of them. Getting off I would say is a little more tricky because they do not want the Breath bleed of Investiture leaving their planet, but I think you will find some notable examples of it happening, so. They are not impossible to dodge, those customs.

Footnote: The "reasons I've explained" that Brandon mentions is referring to this WoB.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

This painting was actually intended to be the same as the one Lightsong saw in Warbreaker:

  Hide contents

R'Shara

The two paintings--The Battle of Twilight Falls, and the one that Kaladin sees in Shadesmar. Are they the same?

Brandon Sanderson

I believe that they are, but I could have...When I wrote the original scene, I intended them to be, but I might have changed something later on. They would be by the same artist. You can say yes, unless I changed something. There was something I was thinking of changing. I'd have to go back and look at them side by side.

R'Shara

But they sounded different. One has black in it, that the other one doesn't.

Brandon Sanderson

The thing is, that artist, and people seeing it, I intend them to each see something different in the paintings they see. But I don't know that I actually decided to make that the same painting. But the same artist.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Warbreaker ch 26:

  Hide contents

 

 

I didn't realize they were supposed to be connected, but the same artist makes sense. However, I doubt that the Nine Shadows painting could actually be the same physical painting as the Battle of Twilight Falls.

Annotation to Ch 26:

Spoiler

Lightsong Sees the Painting of the Red Battle

This is our first major clue (though a subtle one at the same time) that there might be something to the religion of the Iridescent Tones. Lightsong does see something in this painting that a regular person wouldn’t be able to. A well crafted piece of art, made by a person channeling the Tones and connected to them via Breath, can speak to a Returned. Now, in this case, it doesn’t work quite like Llarimar says it does—Lightsong doesn’t actually prophesy about the black sword in the way the priest thinks. In other words, Lightsong isn’t prophesying that he’ll see the Black Sword (Nightblood) in the day’s activities.

Instead, Lightsong is seeing an image of a previous war, which is prophetic in that another Manywar is brewing—and in both cases, Nightblood will be important to the outcome of the battle.

To continue, I go into spoilers.

Spoilers

The person Lightsong sees in the abstract painting is Shashara, Denth’s sister, one of the Five Scholars and a Returned also known as Glorysinger by the Cult of the Returned. She is seen here in Lightsong’s vision as she’s drawing Nightblood at the battle of Twilight Falls. It’s the only time the sword was drawn in battle, and Vasher was horrified by the result.

It’s because of her insistence on using the sword in battle, and in giving away the secret to creating more, that Vasher and she fought. He ended up killing her with Nightblood, which they’d created together during the days they were in love—he married her a short time before their falling out. That marriage ended with him slaying his own wife to keep her from creating more abominations like Nightblood and loosing them upon the world.

Twilight Falls has no white in the painting and the only black is the slash that represents Nightblood - which directly conflicts with the description of the Nine Shadows painting:

Spoiler

Twilight Falls:

Quote

Chaos. Bloody wounds upon bloody uniforms upon bloody skin. There was so much violence in red. His own color. He almost felt as if he were in the painting—felt its turmoil shaking him, disorienting him, pulling on him.

The waves of men pointed toward one figure at the center. A woman, vaguely depicted by a couple of curved brushstrokes. And yet it was obvious. She stood high, as if atop a cresting wave of crashing soldiers, caught in mid-motion, head flung back, her arm upraised.

Holding a deep black sword that darkened the red sky around it.

“The Battle of Twilight Falls,” Llarimar said quietly, standing beside him in the white hallway. “Last conflict of the Manywar.”

Lightsong nodded. He’d known that, somehow. The faces of many of the soldiers were tinged with grey. They were Lifeless. The Manywar had been the first time they had been used in large numbers on the battlefield.

“I know you don’t prefer war scenes,” Llarimar said. “But—”

“I like it,” Lightsong said, cutting off the priest. “I like it a lot.”

Llarimar fell silent.

Lightsong stared into the painting with its flowing reds, painted so subtly that they gave a feeling of war, rather than just an image. “It might be the best painting that has ever passed through my hall.”

<snip>

The painting continued to call to him. “What’s that sword?” Lightsong asked.

“Sword?”

“The black one,” Lightsong said. “In the woman’s hand.”

“I…I don’t see a sword, Your Grace,” Llarimar said. “To tell you the truth, I don’t see a woman, either. It’s all just wild strokes of paint, to me.”

<snip>

“That’s the way prophecy works, Your Grace,” Llarimar said. “Don’t you see? You look at a painting and an entire image appears to your eyes. All I see is random strokes of red. The scene you describe—the things you see—are prophetic. You are a god.”

“But I saw exactly what the painting was said to depict!” Lightsong said.

Nine Shadows:

Quote

And yet, nestled among the paintings for display was a small one painted from thick strokes of oil. White and red, with lines of black. When he looked away, he found himself drawn back toward it, studying the way the highlights played off those dark lines.

Like nine shadows … he thought. With a figure kneeling in the middle … <scene end>

 This one was sloppy by comparison. It looked like the painter had simply taken a knife covered in paint and slopped it onto the canvas, making general shapes.

Haunting, beautiful shapes. Mostly reds and whites, but with a figure at the center, throwing out nine shadows …

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I didn't realize they were supposed to be connected, but the same artist makes sense. However, I doubt that the Nine Shadows painting could actually be the same physical painting as the Battle of Twilight Falls.

Annotation to Ch 26:

  Reveal hidden contents

Lightsong Sees the Painting of the Red Battle

This is our first major clue (though a subtle one at the same time) that there might be something to the religion of the Iridescent Tones. Lightsong does see something in this painting that a regular person wouldn’t be able to. A well crafted piece of art, made by a person channeling the Tones and connected to them via Breath, can speak to a Returned. Now, in this case, it doesn’t work quite like Llarimar says it does—Lightsong doesn’t actually prophesy about the black sword in the way the priest thinks. In other words, Lightsong isn’t prophesying that he’ll see the Black Sword (Nightblood) in the day’s activities.

Instead, Lightsong is seeing an image of a previous war, which is prophetic in that another Manywar is brewing—and in both cases, Nightblood will be important to the outcome of the battle.

To continue, I go into spoilers.

Spoilers

The person Lightsong sees in the abstract painting is Shashara, Denth’s sister, one of the Five Scholars and a Returned also known as Glorysinger by the Cult of the Returned. She is seen here in Lightsong’s vision as she’s drawing Nightblood at the battle of Twilight Falls. It’s the only time the sword was drawn in battle, and Vasher was horrified by the result.

It’s because of her insistence on using the sword in battle, and in giving away the secret to creating more, that Vasher and she fought. He ended up killing her with Nightblood, which they’d created together during the days they were in love—he married her a short time before their falling out. That marriage ended with him slaying his own wife to keep her from creating more abominations like Nightblood and loosing them upon the world.

Twiligth Falls has no white in the painting and the only black is the slash that represents Nightblood - which directly conflicts with the description of the Nine Shadows painting:

  Reveal hidden contents

Twilight Falls:

Nine Shadows:

 

 

I think the differences in descriptions can be explained. Firstly, Lightsong is of 5th Heightening, he has perfect color recognition, Kaladin doesn't. Secondly, Lightsong is Returned, he has greater connection to SR than Kaladin. Lastly, not everything that they saw on a painting was physically on the painting, they were looking a bit into SR, because this painting was made with a piece of soul transferred into it. Grey in Lightsong's painting can be white in Kaladin's painting. The black sword in the center, darkening the sky around, can be 9 shadows in the center. Those are so close to each other that with the Spiritual Realm being involved it can be the same painting.

Spoiler

BlackYeti (paraphrased)

In Oathbringer, Kaladin sees a painting from the Court of Gods which, it is claimed, shows something different to every person who sees it. However, as I understand it, the Returned only see things in the paintings because of their Divine Breath, there isn't anything intrinsically magical about the paintings themselves; what then is going on with this painting?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He was very evasive here, ultimately he only said that not everything that you see is in the painting.

Oathbringer Newcastle signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Gordon

The paintings (I think there were at least two, right?) that remind Lightsong of his dreams and the Manywar etc. Is the Artist someone we know? If not, will we eventually meet him/her in a later book? Does the artist hope to affect Lightsong this way, or is it just some guy giving abstract art to his God?

Jared

Is the artist that painted those paintings Hoid?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid did not make the paintings. The goal of those paintings—and this is spoilery, by the way—the paintings are actually what the text implies that they are. They are abstract paintings which Lightsong, having a touch of the divine, is able to see and read into things that aren't necessarily there.

Beyond that, art is a magical thing in the world of WARBREAKER. When an artist creates a work of art, part of the artist's soul ends up in the artwork. Someone who has many breaths and who's Returned like Lightsong has the inherent ability to see into the art and perceive that. So Lightsong can interpret correctly an abstract piece, based on what the artist is trying to convey, in a way that a normal person couldn't.

I was not trying to make the artists anyone specifically important. In the case of those paintings, they are wonderful artists—I think they are two separate artists, if I'm thinking of the two paintings that you're indicating. As Lightsong has a splinter of divine nature inside him, he is able to interpret the paintings—to foresee, using them, and to see into the soul of the person who made them.

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

 

[Treamayne]

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Grey in Lightsong's painting can be white in Kaladin's painting.

But it wasn't grey in Lightsong's painting - it was red altered with a touch of gray. As Llarimar's comments showed (I bolded them) to a normal person without any heightenings it was a canvas of nothing-but-red.

I can undestand, and agree, that both are seeing things that might not be truely there (Lightsong - because of the Divine Breath; Kaladin because of the lingering touch of Fortune from the Rii Oracle) - but that amount of "change" can't take a canvas of all-shades-of-red (as seen by Llarimar) and add White and Black replacing Grey-tinged-red and black-tinged-red.

Also, in the WoB you first referenced, Brandon even said he could not remember if he made it the same painting or just the same artist (I bolded those sections when I quoted your post). 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Prawnsinger]

I've been looking for an existing thread but couldn't find one (I don't use this forum very often) and I'm sure I'm not the person to notice this, but did Lightsong also see a Vision of Lumar? 

Spoiler

Warbreaker Ch3 p35: ' "The ship had a red sail," Lightsong said. "The sand was brown, of course, and the trees green. For some reason, I think the water was red, like the ship.' 

Doesn't this sound like the Crimson Sea? 

 

[Treamayne]

31 minutes ago, Prawnsinger said:

I've been looking for an existing thread but couldn't find one (I don't use this forum very often) and I'm sure I'm not the person to notice this, but did Lightsong also see a Vision of Lumar? 

  Hide contents

Warbreaker Ch3 p35: ' "The ship had a red sail," Lightsong said. "The sand was brown, of course, and the trees green. For some reason, I think the water was red, like the ship.' 

Doesn't this sound like the Crimson Sea? 

 

Anything is possible, of course, but he dreamed of that ship a number of times and eventually found it to be (Ch 57):

Spoiler

It was growing dark.

What?

He was on a ship. Tossing, pitching, on a dark sea. Lightsong stood on the deck, trying to stay upright on the slick boards. Part of him knew it was simply a hallucination, that he was still back in the prison cell, but it felt real. Very real.

The waves churned, black sky ripped by lightning ahead, and the ship’s motion slammed his face against the wall of the ship’s cabin. Light from a pole-mounted lantern flickered uncertainly. It seemed weak compared with the lightning, which was so violent and angry.

Lightsong blinked. His face was pressed up against something painted on the wood. A red panther, glistening in the lanternlight and the rain.

The name of the ship, he remembered, the Red Panther.

<snip>

Waves crashed against the boat. Llarimar, looking a few years younger, yelled for help from the prow. Deckhands rushed to his aid. It wasn’t Llarimar’s ship, or even Lightsong’s. They had borrowed it for a simple pleasure trip. Sailing was a hobby of Llarimar’s.

The red was imagery of the ship's name. But it's always possible that more than one meaning and implication were used in that passage.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG