Kings of Alethkar

[Firesong she/her]

I am trying to make a list of the kings of Alethkar, 

Quote

Nohadon (Pre-Last Desolation)

Interregnum 

Oldblood Dynasty (Most likely Pre-Last Desolation)

Interregnum

Heirocracy (673-???)

Sadees (???)

Interregnum (??? - 1145)

Gavilar Kholin (1145-1167)

Elhokar Kholin (1167-1174)

Jasnah Kholin (1174 - Incumbent)

 

Oldbloods I assume were Pre-Aharietiam due to the fact that (iirc) Sadees was the first king to truly unite Alethkar after it split apart after Aharietiam (may be wrong there, might be mistaking it for Gavilar being the first king to unify Alethkar Post-Sadees). But they are at least definitely Pre-Heirocracy. 

I forgot how long the Heirocracy lasted, but I know it at least started around 673. Maybe the government they overthrow was the Oldbloods (if I am wrong of Sadees being the first Post-Aharietiam king). 

Coming here to find people who could help find more information to make a more accurate list/timeline. Or correct any mistakes in my logic. 

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, Firesong said:

Oldbloods I assume were Pre-Aharietiam due to the fact that (iirc) Sadees was the first king to truly unite Alethkar after it split apart after Aharietiam (may be wrong there, might be mistaking it for Gavilar being the first king to unify Alethkar Post-Sadees). But they are at least definitely Pre-Heirocracy. 

Have you mined the Coppermind History sections?

I did find these:

WoP:

Spoiler

Peter Ahlstrom (paraphrased)

*offhandedly* The Sunmaker was about 500 years ago, pretty much right after the Hierocracy. The Recreance was about 2,000 years ago.

Coppermind:

Spoiler

Unlike the forces known as the Voidbringers, it was possible for the Ten Deaths to attack between Desolations. The Knights Radiant that were based in Alethela saw the Ten Deaths as a primary threat during these periods, and trained to fight against them.

This is how I interpret the data: Alethela did not discorporate after Aharietiam, but after the Recreance. Since we know the Radiant orders continued after the Final Desolation, we know the Windrunners were HQed in Alethela and maintained the arts of war (so others did not have to do so) and we know there were still threats from the Ten Deaths between Desolations. I would guess the Oldbloods were the rulers of Alethela while the Windrunners (and possibly other Radiant orders) were active. After all, running the Radiant order, plus training, plus protecting, plus watching for activity from threats like the Ten Deaths would make it unlikely that the Radiants were actually the Monarchs of Alethela (and we know the Oldbloods were connected to the Radiant Orders strongly).

Then came the False Desolation, the evacuation of Urithiru, and the Recreance. All of this is 2500 yrs (ish) after the Final Desolation and 2000 yrs before the Everstorm. Alethela splits. The Hills become Unclaimed, Jah Kaved and Herdaz become separate nations. About 1500 yrs pass then the Heirocracy takes root. Sunmaker overthrows them and "Unites" the remaining princedoms and creates Alethkar. He then prompty loses his mental faculties (Unmade Influence?) and goes on a genocideal rampage then burns out (a la Alexander the Great) without a clear line of succession, his ten sons re-fracture Alethkar into the 10 Highprincedoms.

Then comes Gavilar, attempting to re-"unify' Alethkar under one King.

 

 

[Firesong she/her]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Have you mined the Coppermind History sections?

I did find these:

WoP:

  Hide contents

Peter Ahlstrom (paraphrased)

*offhandedly* The Sunmaker was about 500 years ago, pretty much right after the Hierocracy. The Recreance was about 2,000 years ago.

Coppermind:

  Hide contents

Unlike the forces known as the Voidbringers, it was possible for the Ten Deaths to attack between Desolations. The Knights Radiant that were based in Alethela saw the Ten Deaths as a primary threat during these periods, and trained to fight against them.

This is how I interpret the data: Alethela did not discorporate after Aharietiam, but after the Recreance. Since we know the Radiant orders continued after the Final Desolation, we know the Windrunners were HQed in Alethela and maintained the arts of war (so others did not have to do so) and we know there were still threats from the Ten Deaths between Desolations. I would guess the Oldbloods were the rulers of Alethela while the Windrunners (and possibly other Radiant orders) were active. After all, running the Radiant order, plus training, plus protecting, plus watching for activity from threats like the Ten Deaths would make it unlikely that the Radiants were actually the Monarchs of Alethela (and we know the Oldbloods were connected to the Radiant Orders strongly).

Then came the False Desolation, the evacuation of Urithiru, and the Recreance. All of this is 2500 yrs (ish) after the Final Desolation and 2000 yrs before the Everstorm. Alethela splits. The Hills become Unclaimed, Jah Kaved and Herdaz become separate nations. About 1500 yrs pass then the Heirocracy takes root. Sunmaker overthrows them and "Unites" the remaining princedoms and creates Alethkar. He then prompty loses his mental faculties (Unmade Influence?) and goes on a genocideal rampage then burns out (a la Alexander the Great) without a clear line of succession, his ten sons re-fracture Alethkar into the 10 Highprincedoms.

Then comes Gavilar, attempting to re-"unify' Alethkar under one King.

 

 

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. (And on Sadees, I think he was just a genocidal freak. Even the Thrill wouldn't make one do such an organized genocide unless they already had it in them. The Thrill is really only about uncontrolled rage by magnifying ones own murderous rage. Thus it tends to be far less organized and intentional). 

Yeah, makes sense if the Oldbloods were before the Recreance.  

Unrelated, but I wonder what the story is behind that one part of Jah Keved that goes past the river that acts as the border through most of the nations. It just has this sudden Veden bulge in the Ruthar princedom. Land lost during the Alethi-Veden Border Conflicts of the 1150s? This I feel implies that either that it was important enough land for Jah Keved to put a lot of force to break through defensive lines, or that it was not important enough for them to station a lot of troops at, which allowed the defensive line to be easily broken by a decisive strike. 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Firesong

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, Firesong said:

Unrelated, but I wonder what the story is behind that one part of Jah Keved that goes past the river that acts as the border through most of the nations. It just has this sudden Veden bulge in the Ruthar princedom. Land lost during the Alethi-Veden Border Conflicts of the 1150s? This I feel implies that either that it was important enough land for Jah Keved to put a lot of force to break through defensive lines, or that it was not important enough for them to station a lot of troops at, which allowed the defensive line to be easily broken by a decisive strike. 

I doubt there's much of a story there. The river originates in the Sunmaker Mountains (at least it's not south of them), and that origination is well inside Jah Kaved. That said, there are far more odd real-world examples of "territory" - such as the Kentucky Exclave, Azerbaijani and Armenian Exclaves (where each have part of their country entirely surrounded by the other), among others. It always just looked to me to be a bit of "realism" showing that even if a border intends to use a natural geographic feature as a national boundry, there will be exceptions because history just isn't that tidy.

7 hours ago, Firesong said:

I think he was just a genocidal freak. Even the Thrill. . .

Oh, absolutely. I wasn't trying to suggest that his burnout was entirely caused by the Thrill (sorry if I gave that impression), but there are more and other Unmade, and we don't quite know how all of them influence emotions. I just find it interesting that he was so controlled as to chip away at heirocracy control slowly, exposing their (possible/probable) lies.

Then Boom.

As soon as they are defeated and the Ardent system is created a switch was flipped and he goes mad with power invading Herdaz, Jah Kahved, and Azir.

Even Dalinar mentioned that if he was as great a General as his early years showed then he should have known better than to so overextend as to invade Azir without having solidified what he held. . .

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Treamayne
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