theory SA5 Connection: Ba-Ado-Misram, our new Voidmother

[Wit Beyond Measure she/her]

Warning: This post contains a single Stormlight 5 prologue spoiler, masked, and potentially significant spoilers should these theories prove accurate. Reading the prologue for Stormlight 5 first is recommended.

Just as the Stormfather provides Stormlight and surgebinding powers to all of Honor's children, Ba-Ado-Mishram (BAM) became the Voidmother proving Voidlight and voidbinding powers to all of Odium's children, all of her Singers, during the False Desolation.

One BAM to Connect them all
One BAM aligned them
One BAM to draw them all
And with her Voidlight bind them

One gem severs the whole
One gem divides them
One gem rips away souls
And then the darkness finds them

In the Land of Roshar
Where the Singers die
And Listeners live

We'll explore much relevant history leading up to and beyond BAM's imprisonment (see Coppermind's BAM and False Desolation articles for supporting canon references) and theories explaining the magical science behind what happened with BAM, her Singers, and related events.

BAM-SINGER CONNECTION HISTORY

The lead up to and fall out from BAM's gemstone capture includes: 

• Long, long ago, Odium unmakes 9 spren who fight during many desolations in which BAM serves as highprincess and commander of Odium's forces,
• The last desolation comes where all but Taln survive,
• Taln holds Odium and his Fused on Braize all by himself (spanning a total of 4500 years),
• During the long imprisonment of Odium and the Fused, BAM somehow gains the ability to pull Voidlight into the Physical Realm and to Connect herself with all the Singers of Roshar, a feat previously only managed by Odium, making herself a little god (RoW 847-848),
• Even though Odium and the Fused are still trapped on Braize, BAM's newfound powers give her the ability to provide Singers with forms of power including all the Regal forms plus stormform, which allows BAM to wage war against the Knights Radiant during the False Desolation, with no end in sight,
• The Listeners, tired of endless war and manipulation from both Odium and Honor, "cast off everything - including our very forms - to find freedom," which severs their Connection to BAM (RoW 159),
• Honor's long, slow death begins around this time,
• The Knights Radiant form a special Strike Team to imprison BAM inside a gemstone in order to end the False Desolation,
• Because BAM is a little god and holds strong Connection to the spren and souls of every Singer in Roshar except the Listeners, these tethered souls and spren get sucked along their Connection to BAM, ripping out pieces of their souls, removing both their Identity and Connection, and possible damaging or destroying their gemhearts in the ripping process,
• Somehow even Honor and Cultivation's spren and the Sibling get damaged by BAM's imprisonment, though to a much smaller degree that perhaps signals a much smaller Connection between the Voidmother and "all who belong to Roshar," affecting the Sibling's abilities to make Towerlight and crippling Urithiru (RoW 621),
• Close to dying, Honor cannot help the Sibling, Urithiru, or the Knights Radiant,
• The Battle for Feverstone Keep begins before BAM's imprisonment since the enemy still pushes for that ground and parshmen are anything but pushy (OB 809),
• BAM's imprisonment, if during the Battle for Feverstone Keep, would have caused all fighting Singers to experience excruciating pain and then simultaneously transform into docile, mindless parshmen,
• All Singers Connected to BAM become parshmen through a break in Identity and Connection; only the Listeners escape because of their previously broken Connections to her,
• Hundreds of Windrunners and Stonewards at Feverstone Keep become the first to abandon their oaths en masse as Honor says, "they are the first" (OB 547),
• Two thousand years later, the Everstorm travels to Roshar through the Cognitive Realm and is brought through to the physical realm, and
• The Everstorm restores both Identity and Connection by repairing the Singers’ souls and possibly their gemhearts.

SCIENCE-MAGIC THEORY BEHIND CONNECTION, CAPTURING SPREN, AND THE SINGERS' SOULS

From Newton, we know:

Force = mass * acceleration

From Jasnah (OB 1179), we know that "concentrated Stormlight has a faint mass to it." So the more we accelerate the physical mass of the Stormlight, the stronger the physical force we have acting on the Stormlight and anything Connected to and by the Stormlight.

How do we move or accelerate Stormlight? Navani's lecture on fabrial mechanics includes details on sucking Light into a gemstone in order to trap a spren inside a gemstone. We first lure a spren into close proximity to a gemstone with something it likes (e.g., flames for flamespren) and by using the type of gemstone it prefers (RoW epigraphs, Chapter 1).

Interestingly, we already know the type of gemstones preferred by each Order of Knights Radiant (and each associated herald). Moash's knife had a large sapphire gemstone hilt that gave a subdued glow after capturing Jezrien's spren-soul (OB 1205), which makes me wonder if the gemstone in Leshwi's spear (RoW 80) that drained Kaladin's Stormlight and nearly sucked out his soul (RoW 101) was sapphire, as well.

The first questions we must ask ourselves would be 1) what would BAM be attracted to and 2) what kind of gemstone would she prefer? To answer the second, maybe the Voidmother would prefer a heliodor, as the Stormfather would. As for the first question, she appears to like war and commanding, and she has shown particular interest in Feverstone Keep (OB 809).

One might imagine Melishi, the False Desolation's Bondsmith, and her Strike Team showing up at the Battle for Feverston Keep with a large and perfect (or nearly perfect) heliodor gemstone, knowing that BAM would be nearby commanding her troops and in search of something in the area that interested her.

Navani's next stages in capturing a spren (RoW epigraphs, Chapters 2-5) would be filling the gemstone to around 70% full of Stormlight (Voidlight in BAM's case) and then quickly sucking that Stormlight out to create a vacuum that will suck in a nearby spren.

Suppose you take a brown paper lunch sack and suck the air out. It collapses, right? The same would be true of a Ziploc bag. By collapsing to reduce the volume, the bag equalizes the pressure. But what about something that has a rigid structure like a gemstone, especially a gemstone that doesn't leak? If you suck all the air out of a glass, for example, you'd suction that glass to your face since you've created a vacuum of extremely low pressure.

Because air and Light will always seek the lowest pressure possible, they'll get sucked into a vacuum until the pressure outside of the gem roughly equals the pressure inside the gem. Since volume is inversely proportional to pressure, the larger the gemstone, the lower the pressure (where the lower pressure goes the stronger the vacuum becomes). And finally, the tighter the seal, the less a gemstone will leak and the stronger the vacuum will be. So large, perfect gemstones make the perfect traps for these gods.

Quote

If the Stormlight in a gemstone is withdrawn quickly enough, a nearby spren can be sucked into the gemstone.

--Navani, RoW 77

At this point, you might be asking yourself, how does the spren gets sucked in along with the Stormlight? That's where Connection comes in. When the Stormfather gives Stormlight to his children - his spren and his surgebinders - an invisible cord of Stormlight will Connect that spren or that Radiant to the Stormfather. The same can be said for the Voidmother's children - BAM's spren and her Singers: they're all Connected to their mother by a physical force from the Voidlight she provides.

Let's say you have a massive gemstone and a larkin quickly sucking a ton of Light out of your stone. The gemstone will quest out seeking to replace all or almost all of the light it just lost with a powerful force. Once it captures a nearby Stormlight Connection cord, the spren will be drawn in along with the Stormlight the spren is tethered to. Yes, the Connection is mostly spiritual, but there is a small physical Connection, too (because the Stormlight Connecting them has a small mass, as Jasnah said, and mass * acceleration is force, as Newton said). If we yank hard enough on that tether, the spren cannot help but be pulled in.

We see this with spren pulled into fabrials, yes, but also with human and Singer souls, tethered to their home planet by their Connection to the Investiture there. We saw Jezrien's spren-soul sucked into Moash's sapphire knife and Kaladin's soul nearly sucked into Leshwi's gemstone-capped spear, both of which had metal that specifically draws in Stormlight including the Stormlight cords of Connection.

Let me digress for a smidge to explain that Identity and souls are nearly synonymous. For instance, the Fused (where each Fused is the soul of one ancient Singer fuzed together forever to a surgebinding spren, granting surgebinding powers and immortality) maintain their Identities - and most of their intellect, knowledge, and memories - even though they constantly lose the rest of their bodies because Identity is stored in the soul. Connection for the traditional Singer bond appears to be stored in their gemhearts since that is where their spren and probably their souls reside.

Now I said all that to say this: this, this, this is how Singers' souls were ripped away, how their Identity and Connection were stolen, and how they became mindless parshman slaves, by having parts of their souls that were tethered to their Voidmother ripped free, likely destroying their gemstones in the process, as BAM and all her many Connections were sucked into her gemstone prison. With Singer souls damaged, they were not quite soulless and mindless nothings but nearly so. And with Singer gemhearts damaged or destroyed, the parshmen lost their abilities to bond any other spren or to hear the rhythms of Roshar inside their gemhearts.

The Listeners were spared, maintaining their Identity and their abilities to Connect with other spren because they had previously severed their Connections to BAM before her imprisonment.

TRAVEL & WORLDHOPPING

We'd be remiss if, while we're here with Connection, we didn't speculate on travel and worldhopping. Connection tethers Invested individuals to their home planet, not letting them escape lest they rip out part of their souls, their Identity, and destroy their Connection. But of course there is a way around this problem, a way out, because this is Sanderson, after all.

Quote

“This is proof. The Connection is not severed, and the box allows for travel. Not yet as far as you’d like, but we must start the journey somewhere.”

--Gavilar to Restares/Kelek, RoW 23

The remainder of the post includes a little speculation about how off-world travel may be possible based on what we know of Connection above and a single spoiler from the Knights of Wind and Truth prologue that gives a bit more detail regarding the quote above. Reading the prologue for Stormlight 5 first is recommended. I've kept all non-Stormlight cosmere spoilers out of this post.

Spoiler

"Was this how he’d get the Heralds to Return? Trap their souls in gemstones, put them in an aluminum box, and transport them to Alethkar? It might work. Restares talked about Herald souls as being like spren that could work this way..." (Gavilar, KoWaT prologue).

Aluminum blocks Investiture including Connection , as we see in Azure's aluminum room where they can use fabrial Soulcasters inside the room but cannot Connect to fabrials outside that room to have functioning spanreeds (OB 786).

By blocking Connection, aluminum would untether an individual from his home planet, but it would also remove his powers as his Connection to the source of his powers gets cut off.

So we could just stick Thaidakar in an aluminum box (Wit would love nothing better), and send him off. Of course, the aluminum might cause him to lose all powers permanently in that case as he'd lose Connection to the source of his powers. And that's why Thaidakar desperately wants to know how to do what BAM did, how to become the Voidmother, the source of his own power. If Thaidakar could do that, he'd be good to go. I'm not sure he'd need anything like the gemstone, at least not one to squeeze himself inside, but he might need to bring along some Investiture to maintain himself during travel, locked inside the aluminum. Once on another planet and outside the box, he might be able to reach into the Spiritual Realm and withdraw whatever Investiture he needs, Connecting himself and those with him, assuming that he first becomes the Voidmother.

Of course, it may be far more complicated than what I'm speculating here, but I suspect things will travel somewhat along these lines. Is being inside a gemstone necessary?

If the gemstone is necessary, the Singers would be good because their souls and spren are already protected inside a gemstone. They'd just need an aluminum box, but they may get in trouble when they run out of Light eventually, without a renewed Connection to Investiture, without first becoming the Voidmother.

Part of me wonders if Radiants aren't growing gemhearts with each oath they take, helping them retain Stormlight more efficiently, making darkeyes turn light and glow with the color of their gemhearts, allowing them to manifest their Shardblades at will when non-Radiant Shardblades require a gemstone on the hilt to bond....

But that won't help Thaidakar. 

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Edited August 7, 2023 by Wit Beyond Measure
Added sa5 to denote Stormlight 5 spoilers, as requested.

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

This post contains a single Stormlight 5 prologue spoiler, masked, and potentially significant spoilers should these theories prove accurate. Reading the prologue for Stormlight 5 first is recommended.

Please add [SA5] to the thread title to denote that this is a spoiler thread for unpublished material. I know you put it in the first sentance, but adding to the thread title makes it that much easier to avoid spoilers.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

I am gobsmacked. You kinda lost me at the end, but wow did this make so much sense.

[Argent he/him]

32 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Navani's next stages in capturing a spren (RoW epigraphs, Chapters 2-5) would be filling the gemstone to around 70% full of Stormlight (Voidlight in BAM's case) and then quickly sucking that Stormlight out to create a vacuum that will suck in a nearby spren.

This is unique to the Arnist Method of capturing a spren and creating a fabrial. Notably, Dalinar doesn't go through any of that when he captures Nergaoul inside the King's Drop. I would expect that what Melishi did was very similar. 

[Wit Beyond Measure she/her]

5 hours ago, Argent said:

This is unique to the Arnist Method of capturing a spren and creating a fabrial. Notably, Dalinar doesn't go through any of that when he captures Nergaoul inside the King's Drop. I would expect that what Melishi did was very similar. 

I believe the Arnist method specifically refers to using larger gemstones to suck out the light from the smaller gemstone prison, but other methods like the Thaylen tuning fork and Odium's use of Raysium metal both still suck in Stormlight to capture the spren. 

Dalinar does specifically mention that the Thrill isn't smart enough to be afraid of him, so the Thrill may not have needed to be sucked and suckered in as smarter Unmade, like the Midnight Mother or BAM, would have. The Bondsmith's bond with the Thrill played an essential role in his capture, yes, and that's surely at least part of what Melishi did with BAM, as well. They are Bondsmiths for a reason.

[Wit Beyond Measure she/her]

6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I am gobsmacked. You kinda lost me at the end, but wow did this make so much sense.

Thank you! My understanding of worldhopping and travel is far from complete, for sure. There are holes in my understanding, but I love taking educated guesses and then tweaking as we learn more information. I'm definitely not fully there, but I hope I'm moving along the right path.

Watching a WoB Shardcast just now, they mentioned two WoBs that appear to confirm the usefulness of BAM-like abilities (Bondsmith spren abilities) when it comes to travel off-world:

Quote

A Bondsmith can access a lot of power, as evidenced by the migration. The migration from Ashyn to Roshar happened with a Bondsmith powering some Elsecalling. And that allowed for some pretty crazy things. Getting an entire population moved through a portal across that much space is a lot of work and a lot of energy.

--Brandon, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15849

 

Quote

Even when you are seeings some things happening in [removed as possible spoiler] itself, you are seeing them manipulate Connection. It is mostly reinforcing Connection, but it is, in a way, manipulation. Rewriting Connection, rewriting Identity are both things that they can do. So with enough power, with enough smartiness, what a Bondsmith can do can be done.

In fact, we have seen short-range Elsecalling done by… Obviously Elsecalling’s not Bondsmithing, but you know that a Bondsmith powered a big Elsecalling [to migrate from Ashyn], one of the big things you’ve seen a Bondsmith do is get people between planets. And you have seen people use [possible spoiler] to Elsecall. You’ve seen them Lightweave, you’ve seen them do a lot of these things. They also could do some of this same stuff.

--Brandon, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15860

 

[alder24]

18 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

• The Listeners, tired of endless war and manipulation from both Odium and Honor, "cast off everything - including our very forms - to find freedom," which severs their Connection to BAM (RoW 159),

This happened before or during the Last Desolation, not during the False one. Coppermind:

Quote

Since the listeners recall this story about throwing off the Fused, this event must have occurred prior to or around the time of Aharietiam, the Last Desolation, as the Fused were trapped in Damnation for four and a half millennia after that point.

 

Other than that it's an interesting read. But I don't think traveling in an aluminum box is an answer for CS (definitely not for Thaidakar, it would hurt his pride, which would be hilarious). This doesn't sever connections as you noticed and once on another planet and out of the box, the connection to their native planet will be reestablished, which will most likely yeet them back to the home, which won't be nice. I doubt this is the answer, you need to either blank that connection before leaving your planet, or reconnect yourself to a new planet. Being like a "Voidmother" would be useful but there are other, potentially easier options. Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

in this case you need a connection medallion which has a blank connection to a land - as you're stepping out of the box, you need to tap it to connect yourself with this new planet, overwriting your connection to home. This might work. BoM ch 22:

Quote

“Because we’re in your lands,” he said. “The visitor always has to wear the medallion. It’s filled with Connection, yah? Blank Connection, to no place. But Connection can’t just be connected to nothing, so when you tap it, it reaches out and connects you to the place where you are. Makes your soul think you were raised in this place instead, so your language changes.”

But there must be something more to it, as if that was so easy, Thaidakar would have already done that. Maybe that's not strong enough to overwrite your native connection as you don't store it, it's still there. You would need a way to either store it (which might kill a CS) or better, change it - that's why BAM is needed.  

 

I think the part about trapping Heralds soul in gemstones was because they might not have any physical form while being on Braize, only Cognitive and Spiritual (Braize is a barren wasteland, with almost no atmosphere - Khriss said nothing lives on its surface, only Splinters are there). That would require Gavilar to trap them in a gemstone to transport them. But but but - this is what killed Jezrien. You can't do that with CS as that's removing their connections that allows them to maintain their CS status. RoW ch 92:

Quote

"The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms. Capture one of us with your knives, and you won’t be left with a spren in a jar, foolish ones. You’ll be left with a being that eventually fades away into the Beyond."

Now for Singers and their spren in a gemstone, this might be interesting. Spren being in a gemstone might remove their connection to Roshar, thus allowing Singers to just leave Roshar with their spren unlike Radiants. No aluminum box needed. Just leave. Normal worldhopping. But Stormlight in a gemstone doesn't lose its connection, so maybe they can't just leave. 

[Wit Beyond Measure she/her]

On 8/8/2023 at 9:36 AM, alder24 said:

This happened before or during the Last Desolation, not during the False one. Coppermind:

"Since the listeners recall this story about throwing off the Fused, this event must have occurred prior to or around the time of Aharietiam, the Last Desolation, as the Fused were trapped in Damnation for four and a half millennia after that point."

Thank you! I looked up the source that the Coppermind quoted, and it was I-4 from WoR. WoR does not contain the word "Fused" in the entire book. This interlude does speak of the Last Legion attempting to escape their gods, yes. 

It seems that the Coppermind has assumed that gods = Fused, which is not an unreasonable assumption, but I think that their own definition is broader than that. I believe that the listeners would include Odium and BAM in their definition of gods, as granters of forms of power:

Quote

Forms could not be commanded; every person was free to choose for themselves. Transformations could be cajoled and requested, but they could not be forced. Their gods had not allowed this freedom, so the listeners would have it, no matter what.

--WoR 200

“If this works, it will be an amazing advance. The first of the forms of ancient power, rediscovered.”

“Those forms are tied to the gods,” Eshonai said. “What if, in choosing this form, we invite them to return?”

Venli hummed Irritation. “In the old day, all forms came from the gods. We have found that nimbleform does not harm us. Why would stormform?”

--WoR 204

You were chosen by our god, the true god of all singers. He sent me to explain how wonderful you are.

--Ulim to Venli, most likely referring to Odium, RoW 845

This paired with Ulim's quote that BAM originally Connected with "all singers" on Roshar makes me believe that the Last Legion abandoned their forms during the False Desolation.

Quote

We couldn’t break the last Herald, and the humans found some way to pin the whole Oathpact on him. So we got stuck on Braize. Eventually the Unmade decided to start a war without us. That turned out to be exceedingly stupid. In the past, Odium granted forms of power, but Ba-Ado-Mishram thought she could do it. Ended up handing out forms of power as easily as Fused give each other titles, Connected herself to the entire singer species. Became a little god.

--Ulim to Venli, RoW 847-848

Assuming Ulim is being honest and accurate, all singers Connected to BAM during the False Desolation, including all listeners, which means that the listeners must have still had their forms at the beginning of the False Desolation.

As to your Mistborn spoiler:

Spoiler

Ah, I hadn't thought of that! I'm not sure that a Connection medallion would be strong enough, but it very well could be. I was hoping that being the Voidmother would be strong enough, but Hoid and Axendwith and Gerah and 100 others do it, surely all without being the Voidmother.

Because other Invested Scadrians (and beyond) can do world-hopping so easily, Thaidakar must have something rather specific he has to overcome. Perhaps being a cognitive shadow? That's the same thing the heralds have to overcome. But Vasher is and did, right? Hmm.

I just don't know. I think we're getting some things right, but regarding travel for Kelsier, I definitely don't think we have it all.

 

On 8/8/2023 at 9:36 AM, alder24 said:

Now for Singers and their spren in a gemstone, this might be interesting. Spren being in a gemstone might remove their connection to Roshar, thus allowing Singers to just leave Roshar with their spren unlike Radiants. No aluminum box needed. Just leave. Normal worldhopping. But Stormlight in a gemstone doesn't lose its connection, so maybe they can't just leave. 

Thank you for the hope that the gemstones may not be necessary! The aluminum is the more necessary part, I believe, and perhaps the only necessary part for the travel itself.

Singers are still Connected to BAM even though they have gemhearts, so the gemhearts if necessary would not be enough to completely negate Connection on their own, without aluminum.

I joke about stuffing Thaidakar in a box, but he could have an entire spaceship or at least a room in a spaceship (like Azure's room) lined completely with aluminum. If a cognitive shadow can negate previous world Connections by establishing a new world Connection, any source of world Connection would do. But something tells me that Thaidakar has a stronger Connection that is not so easily negated, and perhaps that's why it is harder for him to off-world than all the others in Thaidakar's world who are already off-worlding. I mean, the Ghostbloods might as well be called Worldhoppers 'R Us.

[alder24]

18 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Thank you! I looked up the source that the Coppermind quoted, and it was I-4 from WoR. WoR does not contain the word "Fused" in the entire book. This interlude does speak of the Last Legion attempting to escape their gods, yes. 

It seems that the Coppermind has assumed that gods = Fused, which is not an unreasonable assumption, but I think that their own definition is broader than that. I believe that the listeners would include Odium and BAM in their definition of gods, as granters of forms of power:

In Listeners songs "gods" are called "splinters of a soul" which excludes Odium - he wasn't mentioned even once directly or indirectly (except one time, in songs of Secret, not by name "Of one who seeks to take control"). Splinters are spren and Fused. But Songs mention Unmades as Unmades, and I think in the RoW flashback there was even said that their songs named them or something. So the only thing that's left are Voidspren and Fused as gods - both trapped on Braize. Of course both Unmades and Odium were also the gods they swear never to follow. The Last Legion had to abandon Odium before the Last Desolation. They had to have contact with Fused and Voidspren. 

Quote

"Our gods were born splinters of a soul,
Of one who seeks to take control,"

"By Unmade touch its curse to bear"

"It was by Unmade hand."

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Song_of_Secrets

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Song_of_Histories

RoW ch 73:

Quote

“Perhaps they knew what Ba-Ado-Mishram was going to do, and so they attuned Wisdom, not Betrayal, in their actions.”
She knew the name, of course. As a keeper of songs, she knew the names of all nine Unmade—who were among the gods her people swore to never follow again.

 

29 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

This paired with Ulim's quote that BAM originally Connected with "all singers" on Roshar makes me believe that the Last Legion abandoned their forms during the False Desolation.

They weren't Singers anymore, they were Listeners.

29 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Assuming Ulim is being honest and accurate

We know he isn't but not in this case, at least intentionally.

31 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

As to your Mistborn spoiler:

  Hide contents

Ah, I hadn't thought of that! I'm not sure that a Connection medallion would be strong enough, but it very well could be. I was hoping that being the Voidmother would be strong enough, but Hoid and Axendwith and Gerah and 100 others do it, surely all without being the Voidmother.

Mistborn/Cosmere:

Spoiler

They aren't a Cognitive Shadow. Everybody can worldhop unless they are a Cognitive Shadow. Being a Cognitive Shadow makes you strongly tied to the system and the Shard, you can't leave anymore. Spren have the same thing. Normal people can hop however they want, even Mistborn or Hoid, without any help. They aren't bound. They aren't that invested. They don't need any "Voidmother".

 

33 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Spoiler

 

Because other Invested Scadrians (and beyond) can do world-hopping so easily, Thaidakar must have something rather specific he has to overcome. Perhaps being a cognitive shadow? That's the same thing the heralds have to overcome. But Vasher is and did, right? Hmm.

 

 

Cosmere:

Spoiler

All Cognitive Shadows are tied, except Returned. The nature of Endowment gives them Breaths with "no strings attached", and likely suppressing their Divine Breaths helps a lot.

Spoiler

Badger1289

If Investiture can’t be moved beyond a certain point away from its world/solar system, how in the Cosmere did three Awakeners end up on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture from different systems acts in different ways. Certain people have managed, for example, to get some kinds of Investiture to leave their home world through the use of a kind of magical pipeline. Breaths attach to the identity of the individual, and are fully given away--freely, which removes some of this Connection. It's a nature of Endowment that the gift is given without strings attached, so to speak. But while it's a renewable resource, it's a difficult one.

Roshar is extra "sticky" so to speak with Investiture. It's part of the nature of Honor, Cultivation, and oaths. So getting it off is a problem, though collecting it is not.

Echono

Wouldn't consuming it also be a problem? You need a direct or secondary Bond to take in Stormlight Investiture. It's not like metals or Breaths that anyone could absorb. Although a certain grouchy ardent might have found a way...

Brandon Sanderson

You are right in that Stormlight is more being seen as a power source, since certain systems in the cosmere can work on a variety of different kinds. Not just anyone could make use of it, at least not unless it is refined.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 8, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Could a Threnody Shade survive on another world?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, yes. But they are highly Invested, and leaving a world where you're highly Invested behind when you have that Investiture is difficult, as Kelsier discovered, and as most spren discover.

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave.

Questioner

I thought I saw someone but I guess not.

Brandon Sanderson

It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. "Cognitive Shadow" is a very ambiguous term in the cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- It's the same thing with petrification, right? Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but... you are usually Invested with something, that's tied, and you're basically like pure Investiture then. You're tied to the thing you're Connected to. Most of the things that you're gonna see with that, travelling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it. You have seen people do it.

Questioner

Who?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher... You have seen people do it. But anyone who's got-- yeah.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

 

38 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Singers are still Connected to BAM even though they have gemhearts, so the gemhearts if necessary would not be enough to completely negate Connection on their own, without aluminum.

Now they aren't. They're connected to Roshar and Odium, but they aren't invested enough to cause problems. They can leave - but their spren in their gemheart are invested enough to stop them. This is a problem. They are tied to Roshar like no Singer or human is. 

40 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

But something tells me that Thaidakar has a stronger Connection that is not so easily negated, and perhaps that's why it is harder for him to off-world than all the others in Thaidakar's world who are already off-worlding. 

That's true. He needs a strong way to manipulate his connection.

[bmcclure7]

On 8/9/2023 at 0:17 PM, alder24 said:

In Listeners songs "gods" are called "splinters of a soul" which excludes Odium - he wasn't mentioned even once directly or indirectly (except one time, in songs of Secret, not by name "Of one who seeks to take control"). Splinters are spren and Fused. But Songs mention Unmades as Unmades, and I think in the RoW flashback there was even said that their songs named them or something. So the only thing that's left are Voidspren and Fused as gods - both trapped on Braize. Of course both Unmades and Odium were also the gods they swear never to follow. The Last Legion had to abandon Odium before the Last Desolation. They had to have contact with Fused and Voidspren. 

RoW ch 73:

 

They weren't Singers anymore, they were Listeners.

We know he isn't but not in this case, at least intentionally.

Mistborn/Cosmere:

  Reveal hidden contents

They aren't a Cognitive Shadow. Everybody can worldhop unless they are a Cognitive Shadow. Being a Cognitive Shadow makes you strongly tied to the system and the Shard, you can't leave anymore. Spren have the same thing. Normal people can hop however they want, even Mistborn or Hoid, without any help. They aren't bound. They aren't that invested. They don't need any "Voidmother".

 

Cosmere:

  Reveal hidden contents

All Cognitive Shadows are tied, except Returned. The nature of Endowment gives them Breaths with "no strings attached", and likely suppressing their Divine Breaths helps a lot.

  Reveal hidden contents

Badger1289

If Investiture can’t be moved beyond a certain point away from its world/solar system, how in the Cosmere did three Awakeners end up on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture from different systems acts in different ways. Certain people have managed, for example, to get some kinds of Investiture to leave their home world through the use of a kind of magical pipeline. Breaths attach to the identity of the individual, and are fully given away--freely, which removes some of this Connection. It's a nature of Endowment that the gift is given without strings attached, so to speak. But while it's a renewable resource, it's a difficult one.

Roshar is extra "sticky" so to speak with Investiture. It's part of the nature of Honor, Cultivation, and oaths. So getting it off is a problem, though collecting it is not.

Echono

Wouldn't consuming it also be a problem? You need a direct or secondary Bond to take in Stormlight Investiture. It's not like metals or Breaths that anyone could absorb. Although a certain grouchy ardent might have found a way...

Brandon Sanderson

You are right in that Stormlight is more being seen as a power source, since certain systems in the cosmere can work on a variety of different kinds. Not just anyone could make use of it, at least not unless it is refined.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 8, 2020)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Could a Threnody Shade survive on another world?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, yes. But they are highly Invested, and leaving a world where you're highly Invested behind when you have that Investiture is difficult, as Kelsier discovered, and as most spren discover.

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave.

Questioner

I thought I saw someone but I guess not.

Brandon Sanderson

It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. "Cognitive Shadow" is a very ambiguous term in the cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- It's the same thing with petrification, right? Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but... you are usually Invested with something, that's tied, and you're basically like pure Investiture then. You're tied to the thing you're Connected to. Most of the things that you're gonna see with that, travelling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it. You have seen people do it.

Questioner

Who?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher... You have seen people do it. But anyone who's got-- yeah.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

 

Now they aren't. They're connected to Roshar and Odium, but they aren't invested enough to cause problems. They can leave - but their spren in their gemheart are invested enough to stop them. This is a problem. They are tied to Roshar like no Singer or human is. 

That's true. He needs a strong way to manipulate his connection.

Wrong I'm afraid, in rythm of war Ralian says specifically that the gods of the listeners are not fused but instead the unmade. 

 

[Wit Beyond Measure she/her]

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Wrong I'm afraid, in rythm of war Ralian says specifically that the gods of the listeners are not fused but instead the unmade. 

 

Thanks! I couldn't find the quote you were speaking of, and it may just be that I was searching on the wrong word, "Unmade," to find the quote, but I did find a Venli quote saying much the same thing.

Quote

She knew the name, of course. As a keeper of songs, she knew the names of all nine Unmade—who were among the gods her people swore to never follow again.

--RoW 848

 

[alder24]

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Wrong I'm afraid, in rythm of war Ralian says specifically that the gods of the listeners are not fused but instead the unmade. 

I can't find that quote. Venli said something different, RoW ch 115:

Quote

“I’m not sure,” Venli said. “The humans found you. One Fused knew of you, but she is dead now. I don’t know who she told.”
“What is a Fused?”
“There’s a lot you don’t know,” Venli said. “Our gods have returned, terrible as warned. I was largely responsible for this, even if Rlain says he’s certain they would have found their way back anyway.”

Unmades were already on Roshar,they couldn't return, Fused weren't, they returned. Fused are gods of Singers too.

16 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Thanks! I couldn't find the quote you were speaking of, and it may just be that I was searching on the wrong word, "Unmade," to find the quote, but I did find a Venli quote saying much the same thing.

This quote, which I've already quoted in the previous post, literally said that 9 Unmades were just one of many gods of Singers. They weren't THE gods, but just AMONG the gods. Fused are counted as those gods too.

OB prologue:

Quote

“Ah, but this is for your good, and for ours.” He stood up. “We live without honor, for your gods once brought ours. Without them, we have no power. This world is trapped, Eshonai! Stuck in a dull, lifeless state of transition.”

[...]

“Our enslaved parshmen were once like you. Then we somehow robbed them of their ability to undergo the transformation. We did it by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren.”

Return of Fused is what allowed Heralds to be back on Roshar. Gavilar calls BAM a spren, not a god (she is one of their gods, among Fused). 

OB ch 48:

Quote

“That parshman crew,” he said. “What did they do to deserve such rough treatment?”
He didn’t actually expect an answer. But the parshwoman followed his gaze, then shook her head. “They harbored a false god. Brought him into the very center among us.”
“The Almighty?”
She laughed. “A real false god, a living one. Like our living gods.” She looked up as one of the Fused passed overhead.

Ch 51:

Quote

“You shouldn’t speak so casually about the Fused, human,” Sah said, standing up. “They’re dangerous.”
“Don’t know about that,” Moash said as two more passed overhead. “The one I killed went down easy enough, though I don’t think she was expecting me to be able to fight back.”
He handed his waterskin to the overseer as she came around for them; then he glanced at Sah, who was staring at him, slack-jawed.
Probably shouldn’t have mentioned killing one of their gods, Moash thought, walking to his place in line—last, closest to the sledge, so he stared at a sweaty parshman back all day

Ch 55:

Quote

Rlain’s people were gone. They had fallen to Alethi swords or had been consumed by the Everstorm, transformed into incarnations of the old listener gods. He was, as far as he knew, the last.

I-6, most definite proof:

Quote

“I said,” Ulim hissed, “that you were opening yourselves up. I didn’t say what would enter. Look, your gods need bodies. It’s like this every Return. You should be flattered.”
[...]
Ulim rippled away across the stones. Venli stepped up to the group of Fused. Two still had trouble moving. They lurched, stumbled, fell to their knees. A different two wore smiles, twisted and wrong.
The listener gods were not completely sane.

I-11:

Quote

She started to wonder. So many of the Fused were obviously unhinged; perhaps their inordinately long lives had taken a toll on their psyches. Wouldn’t Odium need new leaders for his people? If she proved herself, could she claim a place among them?
New Fused. New … gods?

ch 111:

Quote

Neshua Kadal. Radiant Knight.
Without meaning to, she attuned the Rhythm of Awe. Around Kholin, the balcony was stable. Boards trembled and quivered at his feet, but did not move into the sky. The balcony railing had ripped apart to either side of him, but where he held to it with a firm grip, it remained secure.
He was her enemy, and yet …
Long ago, these humans had resisted her gods. Yes, the enslavement of her cousins—the singers—was impossible to ignore. Still, the humans had fought. And had won.
The listeners remembered this as a song sung to the Rhythm of Awe. Neshua Kadal.

ch 115:

Quote

One of the hulking Fused called for her. “You! Listener woman! Come!”
Venli attuned the Rhythm of Destruction. She would not be intimidated by these, gods though they be. She stepped up to this one and kept her head high.
The Fused handed her a sword in a sheath. She took it, then attuned Subservience. “I’ve used an axe before, but not—”

ch 116:

Quote

Odium stood beside Venli, a glowing force of burning gold. The first thunderclast left the city and placed something down on the ground: two of the Fused—gods with lithe bodies and little armor. They skirted the turncoat army, sliding along the rock with an uncanny grace.

 

Listener gods were both Fused and Unmades. They had to have contact with Fused because they included them in their songs "Our gods were born splinters of a soul,/Of one who seeks to take control."

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I can't find that quote. Venli said something different, RoW ch 115:

Unmades were already on Roshar,they couldn't return, Fused weren't, they returned. Fused are gods of Singers too.

This quote, which I've already quoted in the previous post, literally said that 9 Unmades were just one of many gods of Singers. They weren't THE gods, but just AMONG the gods. Fused are counted as those gods too.

OB prologue:

Return of Fused is what allowed Heralds to be back on Roshar. Gavilar calls BAM a spren, not a god (she is one of their gods, among Fused). 

OB ch 48:

Ch 51:

Ch 55:

I-6, most definite proof:

I-11:

ch 111:

ch 115:

ch 116:

 

Listener gods were both Fused and Unmades. They had to have contact with Fused because they included them in their songs "Our gods were born splinters of a soul,/Of one who seeks to take control."

 I'll see if I can find the quote I use the  Audiobook not the  Ebooks may take me longer.

 

  I would like to remind you that the listeners Left their gods 2000 years after fused stopped coming to roshar.  It wouldn't make sense for them to be so prominent in the songs. And if they were surely venli  Would have  Not been deceived so easily. 

[alder24]

51 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I would like to remind you that the listeners Left their gods 2000 years after fused stopped coming to roshar.  It wouldn't make sense for them to be so prominent in the songs. And if they were surely venli  Would have  Not been deceived so easily. 

No, you're wrong. The Last Legion had to leave Odium before or during Aharietiam. That's why they are mentioned so many times in their songs. They were familiar with both Fused, Voidspren and forms of powers, which all were included in their songs. Venli was deceived because she desired power, she desired to be a queen, despite warnings from songs. That's what I'm arguing here about. If that happened during the False Desolation, then Listeners wouldn't abandon their gods, Fused, as by this time they would have no idea who they were. They wouldn't have called Unmades as one of many gods they've abandoned.  Because Vanli and others call Fused so many times as the gods they've abandoned, the Last Legion must have left Odium before Aharietiam ended, with Fused still on Roshar. WoR ch 78:

Quote

“You spoke of the Parshendi,” Dalinar said. “This has to do with the red eyes?” Rlain nodded. “What does it mean, soldier?” Dalinar asked.
“It means our gods have returned,” Rlain whispered.
“Who are your gods?”
“They are the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy.” A different rhythm to his words this time, slow and reverent. He looked up at Dalinar. “They hate you and your kind, sir. This new form they have given my people . . . it is something terrible. It will bring something terrible.”

 

[bmcclure7]

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, you're wrong. The Last Legion had to leave Odium before or during Aharietiam. That's why they are mentioned so many times in their songs. They were familiar with both Fused, Voidspren and forms of powers, which all were included in their songs. Venli was deceived because she desired power, she desired to be a queen, despite warnings from songs. That's what I'm arguing here about. If that happened during the False Desolation, then Listeners wouldn't abandon their gods, Fused, as by this time they would have no idea who they were. They wouldn't have called Unmades as one of many gods they've abandoned.  Because Vanli and others call Fused so many times as the gods they've abandoned, the Last Legion must have left Odium before Aharietiam ended, with Fused still on Roshar. WoR ch 78:

 

1. The "many" could be the other voidspren.

2. If they diverged so early how did the singers not find them after 2,000 years?

3. If they had any idea what the fused were why was venli so clueless when ulim brings up her ancestors? 

4.  The song said that the gods controlled them, Not that they killed them and took their place.

 

5.  Ancient and given to hate,  This description is vague and could describe any Spren of odium. 

[alder24]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

1. The "many" could be the other voidspren.

Which were also trapped with Fused on Braize. And I've already proven with numerous quotes that Fused are their gods...

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. If they diverged so early how did the singers not find them after 2,000 years?

Because this region of Rohar is abandoned by all after the shattering of Stormseat. Even their songs said that the Last Legion was sent to fight in the farthest plains. And we have no idea what Singers did in the meantime.

4 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. If they had any idea what the fused were why was venli so clueless when ulim brings up her ancestors? 

When and where she was clueless? She defended her ancestorswith knowledge... You need to start providing quotes or at least chapter numbers. It's really hard to remember everything from 4 books, each 1500 pages long. RoW ch 52:

Quote

“I know much about too many things,” the woman said. “Would you like to learn how to obtain a form of power, Venli?”
Venli looked back. “We abandoned those. They are dangerous. They let the old gods control our ancestors.”
“Isn’t it odd,” Axindweth said, “how much stock you put in what your ancestors said? A dusty old group of people that you’ve never met? If you gathered a collection of listeners from the other families, would you let them decide your future? That’s all they were, your ancient ancestors. A random group of people.”
“Not random,” Venli said to Praise. “They had strength. They left their gods to find freedom.”
“Yes,” Axindweth said. “I suppose they did.”
Venli continued on her way. Stupid human.

RoW ch 73:

Quote

But she forced herself to listen to what her ancestors had done, four hundred of them striking out alone, wearing dullform.
The fools were inbred, then, Ulim said. No wonder …
“These people created us,” she whispered. Her mother continued singing, and didn’t seem to have heard the interruption. “They were not fools. They were heroes. Their primary teaching, preserved in everything we do, is to never let our gods rule us again. To never take up forms of power. To never serve Odium.”

 

19 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4.  The song said that the gods controlled them, Not that they killed them and took their place.

Songs omitted many other things, like how to take a new form... Control doesn't have to be literal, just Fused ordering Singers around is control. 

21 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

5.  Ancient and given to hate,  This description is vague and could describe any Spren of odium. 

The soul of ancient. Spren aren't souls of ancient, Fused are, Fused literally are the souls that were left from what used to be an ancient Singer. And I've provided you with tons of other quotes that further my claim.

 

 

Another proof was at the end of the Last Desolation. This quote said "wars", the False Desolation was 2000 years after the Last Desolation, which was the last war of many wars which were one shortly after another. The False Desolation was a lonely conflict, without a chain of wars right before it. RoW ch 11: 

Quote

They were good questions. Venli hummed to Annoyance—at herself, not at Shumin. When her ancestors had first broken away in an ultimate act of bravery and sacrifice, it had been at the end of the wars between humans and singers. The listeners were able to escape in the confusion, a loose thread no one thought to tie up

[bmcclure7]

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

Which were also trapped with Fused on Braize. And I've already proven with numerous quotes that Fused are their gods...

Because this region of Rohar is abandoned by all after the shattering of Stormseat. Even their songs said that the Last Legion was sent to fight in the farthest plains. And we have no idea what Singers did in the meantime.

When and where she was clueless? She defended her ancestorswith knowledge... You need to start providing quotes or at least chapter numbers. It's really hard to remember everything from 4 books, each 1500 pages long. RoW ch 52:

RoW ch 73:

 

Songs omitted many other things, like how to take a new form... Control doesn't have to be literal, just Fused ordering Singers around is control. 

The soul of ancient. Spren aren't souls of ancient, Fused are, Fused literally are the souls that were left from what used to be an ancient Singer. And I've provided you with tons of other quotes that further my claim.

 

 

Another proof was at the end of the Last Desolation. This quote said "wars", the False Desolation was 2000 years after the Last Desolation, which was the last war of many wars which were one shortly after another. The False Desolation was a lonely conflict, without a chain of wars right before it. RoW ch 11: 

1. We already know pocket of voidspren survive desolations so it's more then possible for some to be around during the false desolation. 

2.First she was clueless and shocked when ulim revealed that he reported to her  ancestors ( First interlude for venli oathbringer)

Then again when her companion became fused. 

Even after she had been the situation explained to her she didn't understand and tried to reverse the process.  (Second interlude oathbringer )

3. Again the the songs say nothing about the ghost of there ancestors or about them killing there hosts bodies or else venli wouldn't be so confused.  

Those are rather big details to leave out. 

5. "Spren aren't souls of ancient" yes there souls (self aware investiture) and there ancient. So the description still applies.

6. We don't know that nothing says that the singers and humans lived in peace pre false desolation.

Considering that BoM was connect to all the singers I think we can speculate  That humans and singers were still in conflict after the desolations. 

 

[Wit Beyond Measure she/her]

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

Fused are gods of Singers too.

I wholeheartedly agree and have always agreed with that statement.

The Coppermind says, "Since the listeners recall this story about throwing off the Fused," citing WoR I-4, where WoR never says "Fused" but instead talks of abandoning the forms their gods gave them. BAM and the Unmade are their gods, as Venli confirms, and so WoR I-4 could easily have been talking about the False Desolation, as Ulim tells Venli. So, yes, "gods" could mean Fused or could mean the Unmade or Odium. The premise on which the Coppermind concludes that the listeners became listeners before the False Desolation is unproven to me until I see a direct quote from WoR that proves the Coppermind's premise to be true, that the Last Legion threw off the Fused when becoming listeners.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Wit Beyond Measure

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. We already know pocket of voidspren survive desolations so it's more then possible for some to be around during the false desolation. 

Stormspren, who came from Everstorm closing in on Roshar in CR. RoW ch 86:

Quote

She didn’t quite understand his explanations of what was happening. But she knew a storm was mounting in Shadesmar. In fact, the storm had been building for generations—growing in fury, intensity. It barred the way to Damnation.
That storm was where Ulim had originally come from. There were also thousands of another kind of spren in the storm: stormspren. Mindless things like windspren or flamespren.
Venli had to find a way to pull those stormspren across and capture them. To that end, a large portion of the roiling storm had been broken off by the god of gods, the ancient one called Odium. This storm was his strength, his essence. Over painful months, he’d moved the storm across the landscape— unseen—until it arrived here. Kind of. Almost.

 

8 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.First she was clueless and shocked when ulim revealed that he reported to her  ancestors ( First interlude for venli oathbringer)

That wasn't Venli but Demid:

Quote

We must be away and see what your ancestors need us to do.”
“Our ancestors?” Demid said. “What do the dead have to do with this?”

 

10 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Then again when her companion became fused. 

Even after she had been the situation explained to her she didn't understand and tried to reverse the process.  (Second interlude oathbringer )

Yes, because songs don't tell how Fused entered Singers' body and Ulim had lied to her. In this very chapter Venli calls Fused Listeners gods - quote is in my post above.

12 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. Again the the songs say nothing about the ghost of there ancestors or about them killing there hosts bodies or else venli wouldn't be so confused.  

Those are rather big details to leave out. 

I think the bigger detail that songs leave out is how to take a new form, like a workform. Wouldn't you say that's more important? We know songs omitted multiple details, it's not surprising that they omitted what Fused did with Singer's body but still call them terrible at every occasion. But they also talked about the origins of Fused in Songs of Secrets.

26 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

6. We don't know that nothing says that the singers and humans lived in peace pre false desolation.

Considering that BoM was connect to all the singers I think we can speculate  That humans and singers were still in conflict after the desolations. 

Conflict isn't equal to Desolation. There was no major conflict between Singers and Humans before the False Desolation because spren weren't massively bonding with humans, like what happened in the response to the False Desolation. And Singers without forms of power stood no chance against the small force of Radiants present.

 

26 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

The Coppermind says, "Since the listeners recall this story about throwing off the Fused," citing WoR I-4, where WoR never says "Fused" but instead talks of abandoning the forms their gods gave them. BAM and the Unmade and Odium are their gods, as Venli confirms, and so WoR I-4 could easily have been talking about the False Desolation, as Ulim tells Venli. So, yes, "gods" could mean Fused or could mean the Unmade or Odium. The premise on which the Coppermind concludes that the listeners became listeners before the False Desolation is unproven to me until I see a direct quote from WoR that proves the Coppermind's premise to be true, that the Last Legion threw off the Fused when becoming listeners.

Only quote from WoR? Really? OB prologue doesn't count? Where Gavilar said "your gods bring my gods" and Eshonai said "we abandon those gods, they tried to destroy you". Or OB ch 55, of Rlain saying that his people were transformed into incarnations of their gods isn't proof? And what are Fused? Incarnations in Singers body.

Quote

Rlain’s people were gone. They had fallen to Alethi swords or had been consumed by the Everstorm, transformed into incarnations of the old listener gods. He was, as far as he knew, the last.

Again, If the Last Legion was during the False Desolation, by this time Singers would simply forget about Fused and all forms that came from Voidspren, as Listeners songs were created when the Last Legion abandoned Odium. The songs clearly talked about Fused as one of Singers gods, how they command Singers and how Singers always obey, and in detail describe every form of power Singers had. We saw in OB that Fused and Voidspren command Singers, not Unmades, so this checks out, as there were no Fused nor Voidspren on Roshar during the False Desolation. I think both OB and RoW give us enough proofs that the Last Legion abandoned Odium during or before Aharietiam, not later. Even WoR said "Warriors, touched by the gods" not "the god" - only BAM was providing forms of power to Singers during the False Desolation, one god, not many, not even Odium was able to reach Roshar back then. 
 

 

If you both still disagree, it's better to drop it as we won't reach a conclusion that will satisfy all of us.

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Stormspren, who came from Everstorm closing in on Roshar in CR. RoW ch 86:

 

That wasn't Venli but Demid:

 

Yes, because songs don't tell how Fused entered Singers' body and Ulim had lied to her. In this very chapter Venli calls Fused Listeners gods - quote is in my post above.

I think the bigger detail that songs leave out is how to take a new form, like a workform. Wouldn't you say that's more important? We know songs omitted multiple details, it's not surprising that they omitted what Fused did with Singer's body but still call them terrible at every occasion. But they also talked about the origins of Fused in Songs of Secrets.

Conflict isn't equal to Desolation. There was no major conflict between Singers and Humans before the False Desolation because spren weren't massively bonding with humans, like what happened in the response to the False Desolation. And Singers without forms of power stood no chance against the small force of Radiants present.

 

Only quote from WoR? Really? OB prologue doesn't count? Where Gavilar said "your gods bring my gods" and Eshonai said "we abandon those gods, they tried to destroy you". Or OB ch 55, of Rlain saying that his people were transformed into incarnations of their gods isn't proof? And what are Fused? Incarnations in Singers body.

Again, If the Last Legion was during the False Desolation, by this time Singers would simply forget about Fused and all forms that came from Voidspren, as Listeners songs were created when the Last Legion abandoned Odium. The songs clearly talked about Fused as one of Singers gods, how they command Singers and how Singers always obey, and in detail describe every form of power Singers had. We saw in OB that Fused and Voidspren command Singers, not Unmades, so this checks out, as there were no Fused nor Voidspren on Roshar during the False Desolation. I think both OB and RoW give us enough proofs that the Last Legion abandoned Odium during or before Aharietiam, not later. Even WoR said "Warriors, touched by the gods" not "the god" - only BAM was providing forms of power to Singers during the False Desolation, one god, not many, not even Odium was able to reach Roshar back then. 
 

 

If you both still disagree, it's better to drop it as we won't reach a conclusion that will satisfy all of us.

Gavalar is a unreliable narrator.  I wouldn't acpect his opinion on the gods.

You have a good point about the songs. Someone should ask Brandon.  

Still considering that the hole point of the songs was to prevent them from summon the gods it would be odd for them to not include  "they will kill you and steal your body ".

Wars do not equal desolation necessarily.  

 

We know BoM commanded the singers and by that logic the fused don't grant forms of power against there will. So it couldn't be them. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by bmcclure7

[alder24]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Gavalar is a unreliable narrator.  I wouldn't acpect his opinion on the gods.

That's why I gave you dozens of different quotes. Read them again. Venli calls Fused "Listener's gods" on multiple occasions.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Still considering that the hole point of the songs was to pretent they from summon the gods it would be odd for them to not include  "they will kill you and steal your body ".

Why? If the point was to prevent the from summoning their gods, warning them which form is from gods and how to avoid gods' return is far better than telling them something that they wouldn't experience anymore. 

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

We know BoM commanded the singers and by that logic the fused don't grant forms of power against there will. So it couldn't be them. 

Voidspren do grant forms, they are also Singers' gods. Everything checks out.