Wit Beyond Measure she/her Posted August 13, 2023 Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 Quote “How could you let it get this far, Saze?” Kelsier eventually asked. “This was almost the end.” “I had it in hand.” “Like hell you did. You’re lucky that lawman could function after what you put him through six years ago. Lucky that the other one was a Slider. I still can’t figure out how he managed that partial detonation in the ship’s hold.” “Luck is a different thing for a god who can see futures, I think,” Sazed replied softly. --LM 486, Kelsier epilogue From the Coppermind's article on Fortune: Quote The precise nature of Fortune and how it functions and is used, is currently unclear. Fortune has been described as "luck" by less cosmere-aware groups, such as the Terris three centuries after the Catacendre. However, it is clear from other individuals that are more cosmere-aware that Fortune is more than simple luck. It's a way of knowing things you would not know otherwise, and a way in which one can see the future. It is implied that Fortune is a thing one can access and draw upon. Someone drawing upon Fortune can lead to events that appear to be coincidences. Coincidences like making a series of investments that appear to be ridiculously fortunate and like pulling off the impossible with his bendalloy at the end of LM. With Fortune, Wayne could literally see the future without realizing it, which is why he made such great investments. Hoid trades his precious harmonica to Wayne for a rat. Are there other fortunes Wayne received? I'm dying to do an Era 2 re-read, now! My favorite thing was something I had noticed after my first read as sounding particularly prophetic, but that was before I realized that Sazed had essentially granted Wayne the gift of prophecy in LM by giving him so much Fortune. Wayne prophetically uses 17 or 17th a total of four times in this book alone, even though Marasi corrects him and says, dude, it's like supposed to be sixteen! Something is absolutely up with that. I cannot help but think we have a 17th Shard confirmed, and that Shard will mean a 17th godmetal. I'm not sure that's the case, but something is definitely up with seventeen. Here are the four quotes and my thoughts on them at the time... https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/123106-wayne-his-17th-metal-17th-shard/ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted August 13, 2023 Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 Nice theory I had thought of Fortune in the climax, but hadn't connected to his investments over the whole series. WHich would imply it goes back to SoS at least. . . 8 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said: I cannot help but think we have a 17th Shard confirmed, and that Shard will mean a 17th godmetal. Uh - maybe I'm underthinking this but wouldn't it be Harmony / Harmonium? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted August 13, 2023 Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 9 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said: From the Coppermind's article on Fortune: Coincidences like making a series of investments that appear to be ridiculously fortunate and like pulling off the impossible with his bendalloy at the end of LM. With Fortune, Wayne could literally see the future without realizing it, which is why he made such great investments. Hoid trades his precious harmonica to Wayne for a rat. Are there other fortunes Wayne received? I'm dying to do an Era 2 re-read, now! My favorite thing was something I had noticed after my first read as sounding particularly prophetic, but that was before I realized that Sazed had essentially granted Wayne the gift of prophecy in LM by giving him so much Fortune. Wayne prophetically uses 17 or 17th a total of four times in this book alone, even though Marasi corrects him and says, dude, it's like supposed to be sixteen! Something is absolutely up with that. I cannot help but think we have a 17th Shard confirmed, and that Shard will mean a 17th godmetal. I'm not sure that's the case, but something is definitely up with seventeen. Here are the four quotes and my thoughts on them at the time... https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/123106-wayne-his-17th-metal-17th-shard/ That's interesting. I didn't really thought about Wayne's investment in that way, I thought that fits perfectly with Wayne's character - he impersonated a guy who had stolen ideas from Tarcsel, he got shouted at by miss Tarcsel and felt bad for her. Later he got money and not only paid attention to her and recognized her (which made her day) but also invested in her to help her. I think he did it out of simple empathy, as he is a good guy, Fortune of course could only slightly help him. I doubt however that Sazed gave Wayne some Fortune or anything like that. Sazed realized only at the very end that the person that he needed wasn't just Wax, but Wayne too, he nearly missed that: Quote “I knew,” Harmony said softly, “that I had to bring Wax to Elendel. It is possible to see future needs. I understood it would be good to make this choice, though one doesn’t always know why. Even if one is a god.” He hesitated. “I thought I only needed Wax. It seems that I was wrong.” Wayne tossed up a speed bubble, so that time didn’t move so quickly. He needed a moment to compose himself. “It should be Wax,” Wayne said. “He’s the one that fixes messes like this.” “No,” Harmony said. “You have practiced all your life with speed bubbles, Wayne. Wax would be brand new at them. You might be the only person in the world who could do this.” And I agree with Treamayne - 17th Shard is likely Harmonium and Harmoinum's god metal. In TLM both Atium and Lerasium returned, bringing the total god metal count back to 16 + 1 Harmonium = 17. We know from multiple WoBs that there were originally 16 Shards, so there is no way for some hidden Shard to suddenly appear. Spoiler Wetlander Please explain what you will about Shards and Splintering and Slivers. Brandon Sanderson An event happened long ago which destroyed something called Adonalsium into 16 pieces. And 16 people took up that power. Questioner People? Brandon Sanderson I call all intelligent species people. If someone takes up the power and lets go of it, it has the effect much like a balloon that's been stretched and then the air is let out. I call that a Sliver; based off of the Lord Ruler calling himself the "Sliver of Infinity". The Lord Ruler is someone who held the power and then released it. And so, current Slivers are the Lord Ruler, Kelsier, and there may be others around who at one point held the power and let go of it. A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness. Wetlander So is that like the mists and the Well? Are they... Brandon Sanderson They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other Splinters. Wetlander Are the highstorms related to the Splintering of Honor? Brandon Sanderson The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. You have seen Splinters quite a bit on various planets. Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wit Beyond Measure she/her Posted August 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Treamayne said: Nice theory I had thought of Fortune in the climax, but hadn't connected to his investments over the whole series. WHich would imply it goes back to SoS at least. . . Uh - maybe I'm underthinking this but wouldn't it be Harmony / Harmonium? Yes, I'd already forgotten when Wayne started investing, and it was much further back than I realized. He's had his "lucky hat" since before Alloy of Law, so perhaps Wayne has always had a bit of Fortune. We only really saw the payoff in LM, though. While I don't think anyone believes Harmony to be a 17th Shard, that would be a 17th godmetal, so I misspoke. Even so, I don't think Wayne's 17 is pointing toward Harmony. If it were, others would be saying 17 and not just Wayne. Marasi tells Wayne he's wrong, even, and everything in Era 2 is still essentially base 16. In fact, I don't think anything was base 16 until Era 2. Era 1 was all base 10 just like our standardized system of counting. So no, I don't believe that Harmony is the 17th. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: We know from multiple WoBs that there were originally 16 Shards, so there is no way for some hidden Shard to suddenly appear. Reveal hidden contents Wetlander Please explain what you will about Shards and Splintering and Slivers. Brandon Sanderson An event happened long ago which destroyed something called Adonalsium into 16 pieces. And 16 people took up that power. Questioner People? Brandon Sanderson I call all intelligent species people. If someone takes up the power and lets go of it, it has the effect much like a balloon that's been stretched and then the air is let out. I call that a Sliver; based off of the Lord Ruler calling himself the "Sliver of Infinity". The Lord Ruler is someone who held the power and then released it. And so, current Slivers are the Lord Ruler, Kelsier, and there may be others around who at one point held the power and let go of it. A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness. Wetlander So is that like the mists and the Well? Are they... Brandon Sanderson They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other Splinters. Wetlander Are the highstorms related to the Splintering of Honor? Brandon Sanderson The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. You have seen Splinters quite a bit on various planets. Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013) Yes, I definitely agree that the Shattering created 16 Shards, which is why Era 2 finally discovers all 16 and starts counting in base 16. Wayne's use of 17 seems prophetic because it hasn't happened yet, a new Shard being created like the group and this forum's namesake strive to create, a 17th Shard. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: I doubt however that Sazed gave Wayne some Fortune or anything like that. Sazed realized only at the very end that the person that he needed wasn't just Wax, but Wayne too, he nearly missed that. Oh, I had forgotten that quote! You are correct that Sazed didn't realize Wayne was the key until the end, and so Sazed almost surely did not deliberately give Wayne the Fortune. And yet, I still think that Wayne was the epitome of Fortune in LM especially, and I don't believe that to be coincidence. Here's a WoB that references Stormlight and explains how Fortune works in another character without the user knowing exactly the details but only what he needs to do and where he needs to be. So perhaps Sazed was doing things with Wax because Wayne always tags along, only Sazed didn't realize until later that the reason he sent Wax was to get Wayne there. I could be wrong, of course, but that seems to be how Fortune works. There are a ton of these about this particular non-Wayne character marked #fortune if you want to search, assuming you're up to date on the cosmere. Spoiler Questioner Hoid seems to know things that are not explained. He'll show up places, when the Herald showed up, or when Jasnah comes back. Is that something that's just not been explained yet? Or is that something that's a part of some magic system that we've heard about? Or is that something different? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, so, he has access to things that other people do not. It is explainable, but it has not been explained yet. He can be places he needs to be, but if you watch, he doesn't always know why he needs to be there. He's really good at covering that part up. But he does-- he knows he needs to be somewhere, and so he gets there. Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017) Edited August 13, 2023 by Wit Beyond Measure 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted August 13, 2023 Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 17 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said: Yes, I'd already forgotten when Wayne started investing, and it was much further back than I realized. He's had his "lucky hat" since before Alloy of Law, so perhaps Wayne has always had a bit of Fortune. We only really saw the payoff in LM, though. Yeah, I bet Wayne had a slightly higher Fortune than everyone else. I agree with that part. 11 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said: Yes, I definitely agree that the Shattering created 16 Shards, which is why Era 2 finally discovers all 16 and starts counting in base 16. Wayne's use of 17 seems prophetic because it hasn't happened yet, a new Shard being created like the group and this forum's namesake strive to create, a 17th Shard. Nobody discovered all 16 Shards on Scadrial. Nobody knew about Autonomy before she started messing things up. They use a base 16 numerical system because that's Preservation's number and there are 16 base metals in metallic arts. Not because they know how many Shards are out there - they don't know it at all. How do you create a new Shard? You can't just spawn a new Shard into existence. You need a near infinite amount of investiture for it, and you can't just give it to it. No, there is no new Shard being created without compromising the investiture held by all 16 Shards. You would need to Splinter a Shard into 2 smaller pieces and create 2 new one from that one (that's possible per WoB, but those 2 new mini-Shards would be half as powerful as regular Shards), but almost all Shards are accounted for, and nothing indicates something like this happened. This isn't happening. And no Splintered Shards was ever picked up, as far as we know. But in the same way a 2 mini-Shards are new Shards, bringing up the total count of Shards to 17, Harmony is also a new Shard holding 2 Shards. Harmony himself also increases the count to 17. There are some WoBs where Brandon talks how Harmony can be viewed both as a new Shard or as 2 Shards combined. 17th Shard is an organization with a non-interference policy. They aren't a Shard. They are a group of people. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong she/her Posted August 13, 2023 Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 20 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said: While I don't think anyone believes Harmony to be a 17th Shard, that would be a 17th godmetal, so I misspoke. Even so, I don't think Wayne's 17 is pointing toward Harmony. If it were, others would be saying 17 and not just Wayne. Marasi tells Wayne he's wrong, even, and everything in Era 2 is still essentially base 16. In fact, I don't think anything was base 16 until Era 2. Era 1 was all base 10 just like our standardized system of counting. So no, I don't believe that Harmony is the 17th. Evidence it was Base 10? I feel it is implied it is still Base-16, they just translated numbers. I don't think you are supposed to read that they changed the base of their number system, especially as they kept the same writing system. So I do think that this assumption is ultimately headcanon. And also, I doubt that Brandon is going to make some massive change to what has been canon for so long to be like "Oh, actually, everyone lied about 16, even Hoid and the other Shards", I feel it would be very cheap and a massive ret-con. Especially as even after the release of TLM he keeps saying 16 and even mentioned that "we only have one shard left to reveal" (we know 15) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted August 13, 2023 Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 5 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said: Wayne's use of 17 seems prophetic because it hasn't happened yet, a new Shard being created like the group and this forum's namesake strive to create, a 17th Shard. The 17th Shard (organization) definitely does not want to make a new Shard - that is very far from that group's goals. Spoiler Its members have a non-interventionist philosophy,[3] believing that the Shards were split up for a reason and that people shouldn't dabble in mixing them.[4] 5 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said: I'd already forgotten when Wayne started investing, and it was much further back than I realized. He's had his "lucky hat" since before Alloy of Law, so perhaps Wayne has always had a bit of Fortune. Well, since we never confirmed Wayne's Resonance - I wonder if maybe part of the Slider Resonances has to do with Fortune (and the aspect depends on with which second ability it is resonating). WoBs: Spoiler Quote Questioner I have a question about Wayne, are his skills of taking another personality, is it his trait, or something magical? Brandon Sanderson It is not magical, he’s just really good at it. Quote timi1993 What's [Wayne's] effect from his Twinborn abilities? Brandon Sanderson I don't think I've released that yet. Quote Argent Yeah I can see that. And Wayne? Brandon Sanderson So Wayne's is not as obvious. I'll go ahead and RAFO that right now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wit Beyond Measure she/her Posted August 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Treamayne said: The 17th Shard (organization) definitely does not want to make a new Shard - that is very far from that group's goals. Reveal hidden contents Its members have a non-interventionist philosophy,[3] believing that the Shards were split up for a reason and that people shouldn't dabble in mixing them.[4] Well, since we never confirmed Wayne's Resonance - I wonder if maybe part of the Slider Resonances has to do with Fortune (and the aspect depends on with which second ability it is resonating). WoBs: Hide contents Thank you! Edited August 13, 2023 by Wit Beyond Measure I put my message inside the quote, accidentally. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our he/him Posted August 26, 2023 Report Share Posted August 26, 2023 On 8/12/2023 at 10:08 PM, Wit Beyond Measure said: With Fortune, Wayne could literally see the future without realizing it, which is why he made such great investments. Hoid trades his precious harmonica to Wayne for a rat. Are there other fortunes Wayne received? I agree on Wayne's Resonance being a higher-than-average Fortune. We've also seen him in SoS jump through a window and manage to set up a Speedbubble at just the right size to only capture himself and the Marksman, which in his words was "right lucky". As a side note, I'm pretty sure that Wax's Resonance is having a higher skill with precision, at least with firearms. we've heard Miles talk about seeing Wax making basically impossible shots in AoL and he literally shot one of his own bullets in midflight to change its trajectory and his Tarson in the head from the side. That takes great skill and great natural talent- talent in the form of a Resonance, possibly. Both these Resonances would fit with their powers pretty well in my opinion; Wax's powers are the ability to form a Spiritual Conneciton to metals near him and to exert physical force on them and the ability to increase his mass. Aiming better seems to fit with that. Wayne's powers are the ability to have his Physical Aspect rewritten to align with his Spiritual Aspect and the ability to warp spacetime. Fortune is just being able to "sense" subconsciously certain things in the future to a degree, so that fits decently with his portfolio as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ale the Metallic Conjurer he/him Posted August 3 Report Share Posted August 3 Until we know more about Fortune, I'll err on the possibility Sazed directly gave Wayne Fortune. Even though he's certainly capable of doing so, it seems like Fortune isn't the power to see future possibilities. It sounds more like Hoid's "sense" of "I know where I need to be, but not why," just like the island of Avalon from Gargoyles. So I'm hesitant about Sazed giving Wayne the same "sense." However, I'm very confident Sazed was lying to Wayne about his true role in Sazed's gambit. The epilogue definitely told me Sazed was nudging and arranging things with unparalleled future sight, even as far back as Wayne first working with Wax. And when he was blinded for a year, he was relying on his own sense of Fortune. I think Sazed was arranging the circumstances for Wayne to become so rich he can buy absurd amounts of bendalloy, knowing he might be the hero to partially detonate the bomb. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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