Shardblades, shardplate, and attempts to recreate them.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Yes another shard post but I didn't feel this one entirely fit with the one comparing Vivennas blade to Nightblood.  

This post I wanted to talk more about what makes them what they are.  

This has one large assumption and please correct me if I am wrong on this as a lot of my thoughts may not matter much past this.  

Constant investiture is what separates the big boys in blade form from children that are making up plate.  I assume being a splinter of a shard allows the spren who bond radiants with a sort of open connection of investiture.... or even just being created of pure investiture and thus no need to be refed with more investiture as time goes on?  

Blades aren't just a chunk of investiture, they are splinters capable of thought and intent and sentience. Something I don't know that lesser spren making up plate are capable of. 

Plate is a bit different in being made up of lesser spren. Perhaps less invested and less ability to stay manifested in the physical as well as the big brothers of the spren world who become blades?  

*Maybe this is beside the point, but could it be that shardplate stayed in the physical after the orders abandoned their oaths because the lesser spren weren't strong enough or capable of returning to the cognitive realm?  What makes plate grow back?  Is it stormlight pulling spren back from the cognitive to return to their place? Is it attracting new spren to take their place? 

 

When attempting to replicate shards I feel like understanding these things are important.  

We see that awakening is close!  But breaths run out. Nightblood doesn't have a constant flow of investiture naturally. His is created through the command to destroy and the fact that he drains the user.  Vivennas blade, I believe, is superior in that it doesn't drain from the user and instead takes its feeding from the colors of those it cuts. (This assumes that the color of the item is important in a way that would suggest it can fill in as a source of power and investiture.)

Both blades are sentient and capable of having the constant flow of investiture to stay working when needed. 

How could one replicate shardplate though?  

If it doesn't need to be sentient to the point that shardblades are then I guess it might be a bit easier. But if it still requires constant investiture to function then we I think we will be scratching our heads to figure it out. 

Could you push a bunch of breath into it and have it work?  Probably. Would it be as strong as if it were sentient?  Probably not. Does that sentience matter at all if there is no way to feed it the investiture needed to stay functional? Maybe not as well. 

The two blades we see are able to be sheathed by aluminum! This has to be 2 fold necessary.  #1 they can't cut through the aluminum so to protect the world from this incredible cutting force an aluminum sheath is important.  Regular awakened sheath would be less useful as it would eventually run out of breath and then be a huge liability to the person holding it once it was weak enough to be instantly sliced through.  #2 they won't decay while in aluminum similarly to hemalurgic spikes right?  There is no need to feed them continuous investiture while in their aluminum sheath. 

How could you stop awakened armor from leaking investiture?  Wrap it in aluminum?  Keep it in an aluminum box while not using it?  That could probably work pretty well but once it starts to get decayed how do you upkeep it?  

My ideas were simply reinfuse it with breaths.  Maybe there is a fabrial setup that could link it to gemstones as we see with deadplate already? 

Perhaps a different system all together could help feed it with the needed juice to stay put together?  Rub it down with liquid dor every now and then as a polish?  I don't know. Genuinly hoping to hear if anyone had ideas on that. 

Maybe the best way to make shardplate like stuff is just just make typical armor dipped in molten aluminum and reapplying the coating when necessary? 

[Quantus he/him]

47 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Plate is a bit different in being made up of lesser spren. Perhaps less invested and less ability to stay manifested in the physical as well as the big brothers of the spren world who become blades?  

*Maybe this is beside the point, but could it be that shardplate stayed in the physical after the orders abandoned their oaths because the lesser spren weren't strong enough or capable of returning to the cognitive realm?  What makes plate grow back?  Is it stormlight pulling spren back from the cognitive to return to their place? Is it attracting new spren to take their place? 

It's the same spren. Per WOB a radiant can summon their plate on Braize if they already have done so, but not if it's the first time.  This implies a permanent change and association.

47 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

When attempting to replicate shards I feel like understanding these things are important.  

We see that awakening is close!  But breaths run out. Nightblood doesn't have a constant flow of investiture naturally. His is created through the command to destroy and the fact that he drains the user.  Vivennas blade, I believe, is superior in that it doesn't drain from the user and instead takes its feeding from the colors of those it cuts. (This assumes that the color of the item is important in a way that would suggest it can fill in as a source of power and investiture.)

Both blades are sentient and capable of having the constant flow of investiture to stay working when needed. 

How could one replicate shardplate though?  

If it doesn't need to be sentient to the point that shardblades are then I guess it might be a bit easier. But if it still requires constant investiture to function then we I think we will be scratching our heads to figure it out. 

Could you push a bunch of breath into it and have it work?  Probably. Would it be as strong as if it were sentient?  Probably not. Does that sentience matter at all if there is no way to feed it the investiture needed to stay functional? Maybe not as well. 

The two blades we see are able to be sheathed by aluminum! This has to be 2 fold necessary.  #1 they can't cut through the aluminum so to protect the world from this incredible cutting force an aluminum sheath is important.  Regular awakened sheath would be less useful as it would eventually run out of breath and then be a huge liability to the person holding it once it was weak enough to be instantly sliced through.  #2 they won't decay while in aluminum similarly to hemalurgic spikes right?  There is no need to feed them continuous investiture while in their aluminum sheath. 

How could you stop awakened armor from leaking investiture?  Wrap it in aluminum?  Keep it in an aluminum box while not using it?  That could probably work pretty well but once it starts to get decayed how do you upkeep it?  

My ideas were simply reinfuse it with breaths.  Maybe there is a fabrial setup that could link it to gemstones as we see with deadplate already? 

Perhaps a different system all together could help feed it with the needed juice to stay put together?  Rub it down with liquid dor every now and then as a polish?  I don't know. Genuinly hoping to hear if anyone had ideas on that. 

Maybe the best way to make shardplate like stuff is just just make typical armor dipped in molten aluminum and reapplying the coating when necessary? 

Even living Plate feeds off the Stormlight of the Radiant.  I think I'd go with a Scadrian Medallion-Fabrial design, so it runs on the Investiture of burning metals, instead of Breath-fuel.   

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

It's the same spren. Per WOB a radiant can summon their plate on Braize if they already have done so, but not if it's the first time.  This implies a permanent change and association.

Even living Plate feeds off the Stormlight of the Radiant.  I think I'd go with a Scadrian Medallion-Fabrial design, so it runs on the Investiture of burning metals, instead of Breath-fuel.   

I had thought about something like that. Do you think having a purpose for the fuel would matter?  Maybe investiture via nicrosil compounding would be easier to convince it to feed off of?  Or just any created loop with allomancy might help?  

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

Just something I'd like to point out and theorize about Vivennas Blade. Color serves some purpose in the Awakening, though it's unclear what it is. It doesn't power it for certain, as that's what the Breaths are for. I've toyed with the idea that Color is what enables the Breaths to puppeteer the object they've been put in to follow a Command, as while it's never required for transferring Commands, it's needed for Awakening. If this is the case, then maybe instead of needing a constant influx of Investiture like Nightblood, Vivenna's Blade can absorb more Color to maintain the Breaths it was originally Awakened with, with no need for more Investiture.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Just something I'd like to point out and theorize about Vivennas Blade. Color serves some purpose in the Awakening, though it's unclear what it is. It doesn't power it for certain, as that's what the Breaths are for. I've toyed with the idea that Color is what enables the Breaths to puppeteer the object they've been put in to follow a Command, as while it's never required for transferring Commands, it's needed for Awakening. If this is the case, then maybe instead of needing a constant influx of Investiture like Nightblood, Vivenna's Blade can absorb more Color to maintain the Breaths it was originally Awakened with, with no need for more Investiture.

The reasoning might be different but I think that the end result is similar. I think that Vivennas blade absorbing the color and maintaining its soul cutting properties while also not absorbing the investiture and life of the person holding her is strong proof that, when it comes to awakening a shardblade, Yesteels command and method outshine Shashara's original. 

I like hearing other ideas on what color does for it.  That could line up with the idea that gems on Roshar minus their color simply wouldn't work right.  Not only a lack of ability to hold light as well, but also that they would not be able to function.  

If the color is indeed guiding intent or something similar then I could see how the theory crosses over. 

WoBs state that in some cases the color of the gem is the only thing structurally that makes it different from other gems. But the two could work differently.  Color guiding an intent or helping to "puppeteer" makes a lot of sense in this. Breaths are all the same and ropes are all ropes. But commands guided with color could be an explanation of how it works indeed. 

 

[Treamayne]

22 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think that Vivennas blade absorbing the color and maintaining its soul cutting properties while also not absorbing the investiture and life of the person holding her is strong proof that, when it comes to awakening a shardblade, Yesteels command and method outshine Shashara's original. 

Two points:

1. We do not know that Azure's blade was a Yesteel creation or using his method(s) - it could easily be something that she and Vasher worked on together when preparing to confront Yesteel
2. We do not know what aspects are different or which portion(s) of those changes resulted in a difference. After all, we have a WoB stating that Nightblood's nature is not just because of Shashara's intent, visualization,  and command. WoBs

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

asmodeus

If the only variable we change, during the creation of Nightblood, is to use a different Allomantically-viable metal (say, iron or bronze instead of steel), but keep everything else constant (the same Breaths, same people doing the same visualization, and whatever other factors were involved), would it have manifested different powers/capabilities?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Most likely.

 

Quote

howtofall

We know that the effects of various magic systems are changed by their interactions with metals (Scadrial’s three obviously, as well as fabrials on Roshar). So my question is: when a piece of metal is Awakened, does the type of metal change the nature of the Awakened object in any meaningful way?

For example, If Nightblood had been made of iron or tin rather than steel...

Brandon Sanderson

It would most likely change what is happening with Nightblood to use different materials, and that includes different types of metal.

Quote

Questioner

If Vasher and Shashara had Awakened a non-weapon in exactly the same way as Nightblood (say a shield), would the object exhibit the same properties as Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

So, if you said "destroy evil" to a shield... no, it wouldn't be exactly the same. The Command is the most important part of all of this, but the shape, how the weapon perceives itself, how you perceive it, is all gonna play into this. They're playing with some real dangerous stuff when they made Nightblood. And it didn't go as intended.

 

So, every factor matters. Nightblood is as he is not because of any one factor - but because the type of materials (blade and handle), shape (and the cognitive perception of that shape), number of breaths, color drained to awaken him, visualization used, and Command all came together into that result.

Change any one component and you do not get Nightblood - you get something different.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The reasoning might be different but I think that the end result is similar. I think that Vivennas blade absorbing the color and maintaining its soul cutting properties while also not absorbing the investiture and life of the person holding her is strong proof that, when it comes to awakening a shardblade, Yesteels command and method outshine Shashara's original. 

Actually draining of color changes something in the soul, I think it does drain a tiny portion of investiture from it:

Spoiler

tallakahath

So, on Nalthis, in the Warbreaker universe, when the color's pulled out of something, is that a physical or chemical change or is that a perceptual change?

Brandon Sanderson

It is actually a physical change, but the spirit of the thing is changing, and it's filtering through to the Physical Realm.

tallakahath

So, if I do that on a carrot, I can break beta carotin? If I do that on a piece of metal, I can reduce it and charge my battery that way?

Brandon Sanderson

Potentially, yeah! Yeah, that would work, you're changing it's Spiritual nature.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

 

11 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I like hearing other ideas on what color does for it. 

There is this WoB:

Spoiler

Kurkistan

Do Breaths inherently possess the ability to interpret and carry out commands, or does the Awakener need to impart that decision making ability on Awakened objects?

If the Awakener does need to impart the decision-making ability, then does Awakening consist of an Awakener copying a portion of his/her Cognitive aspect (as determined by his/her visualization and verbal Command) onto the Cognitive aspect of the object being Awakened, with Breath then providing the "juice" for the object to actually follow its Command: powering both physical motion and "cogitation" based upon the copied Cognitive aspect?

If so, is that copying what drains color?

Brandon Sanderson

You're very close here.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)