Navani's actions in RoW

[Aldehyde1]

I'm late to this topic, but I was shocked at the sheer stupidity of Navani in Rhythm of War. When I search threads and posts from before, I see people saying that she engaged in a careful battle against Raboniel. This doesn't make sense to me. She gives Raboniel everything she wants and more, despite Raboniel making it blindingly obvious that she is going to use Navani's results to destroy humanity. What did she think would happen if she came up with what she thought was a weapon capable of killing gods while she knows Raboniel is carefully watching her every move? Couldn't she have just kept her revelation of using math to invert sound to to herself until she was safe (or dead, but still better to keep the secret that she knows is incredibly powerful out of the hands of the enemy)? Raboniel immediately broke her promise to leave the Tower after Navani first produced Warlight, but for some reason Navani is still motivated by her empty promise of "ending the war together" and simply hands over her extremely detailed notes right away. She even goes through all the effort of setting up traps in the hallway, but couldn't set one up to destroy the notebook. She wasn't even under any immediate threat. Raboniel makes it clear that she's happy to leave Navani safely alone because she thinks that her question was answered already with the first experiment. Raboniel isn't even harming any humans at the moment and all of Navani's family is safe. There's no reason to do what she did aside from making Navani feel like a cool scholar. This honestly ruined what up until then was a very enjoyable book for me, and felt like a very juvenile attempt to make the enemy more powerful before the climax.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Aldehyde1

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

12 minutes ago, Aldehyde1 said:

I'm late to this topic, but I was shocked at the sheer stupidity of Navani in Rhythm of War. When I search threads and posts from before, I see people saying that she engaged in a careful battle against Raboniel. This doesn't make sense to me. She gives Raboniel everything she wants and more, despite Raboniel making it blindingly obvious that she is going to use Navani's results to destroy humanity. What did she think would happen if she came up with what she thought was a weapon capable of killing gods while she knows Raboniel is carefully watching her every move? Couldn't she have just kept her revelation of using math to invert sound to to herself until she was safe (or dead, but still better to keep the secret that she knows is incredibly powerful out of the hands of the enemy)? Raboniel immediately broke her promise to leave the Tower after Navani first produced Warlight, but for some reason Navani is still motivated by her empty promise of "ending the war together" and simply hands over her extremely detailed notes right away. She even goes through all the effort of setting up traps in the hallway, but couldn't set one up to destroy the notebook. She wasn't even under any immediate threat. Raboniel makes it clear that she's happy to leave Navani safely alone because she thinks that her question was answered already with the first experiment. Raboniel isn't even harming any humans at the moment and all of Navani's family is safe. There's no reason to do what she did aside from making Navani feel like a cool scholar. This honestly ruined what up until then was a very enjoyable book for me, and felt like a very juvenile attempt to make the enemy more powerful before the climax.

It didn't bother me as much, because I saw it as a fundamental part of who Navani is. She's a scholar who has never had the time or self-confidence to engage in proper study and got put down by her husband about it, only to now have nothing but time and resources on her hands, in a field where nobody has ever done research before. It makes sense that she wouldn't be able to resist the temptation of experimenting and seeing what she can do, especially when she didn't even know she would get any results. Her actions were stupid for sure, just not out of character or particularly "this only happened so the plot gets furthered". Understanding Light, the pure tones of Shards, and anti-Investiture is important for the future of the cosmere, so it needed to be explained for more than just making the bad guys stronger before the climax. And the villains didn't get any stronger than the heroes also did, so it's still the same dynamic.

That's just my opinion though.

[Firesong she/her]

8 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

It didn't bother me as much, because I saw it as a fundamental part of who Navani is. She's a scholar who has never had the time or self-confidence to engage in proper study and got put down by her husband about it, only to now have nothing but time and resources on her hands, in a field where nobody has ever done research before. It makes sense that she wouldn't be able to resist the temptation of experimenting and seeing what she can do, especially when she didn't even know she would get any results. Her actions were stupid for sure, just not out of character or particularly "this only happened so the plot gets furthered". Understanding Light, the pure tones of Shards, and anti-Investiture is important for the future of the cosmere, so it needed to be explained for more than just making the bad guys stronger before the climax. And the villains didn't get any stronger than the heroes also did, so it's still the same dynamic.

That's just my opinion though.

Furthermore, discovering Anti-Voidlight would also give humanity a big advantage, as it would give them the ability to actually permanently kill the Fused. It would be worth anything to get that knowledge. As they would be completely and utterly incapable of victory without it. When your foe eternally reincarnates whenever killed, you get pretty desperate for a way to actually kill them. 

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Aldehyde1 said:

I'm late to this topic, but I was shocked at the sheer stupidity of Navani in Rhythm of War. When I search threads and posts from before, I see people saying that she engaged in a careful battle against Raboniel. This doesn't make sense to me. She gives Raboniel everything she wants and more, despite Raboniel making it blindingly obvious that she is going to use Navani's results to destroy humanity. What did she think would happen if she came up with what she thought was a weapon capable of killing gods while she knows Raboniel is carefully watching her every move? Couldn't she have just kept her revelation of using math to invert sound to to herself until she was safe (or dead, but still better to keep the secret that she knows is incredibly powerful out of the hands of the enemy)? Raboniel immediately broke her promise to leave the Tower after Navani first produced Warlight, but for some reason Navani is still motivated by her empty promise of "ending the war together" and simply hands over her extremely detailed notes right away. She even goes through all the effort of setting up traps in the hallway, but couldn't set one up to destroy the notebook. She wasn't even under any immediate threat. Raboniel makes it clear that she's happy to leave Navani safely alone because she thinks that her question was answered already with the first experiment. Raboniel isn't even harming any humans at the moment and all of Navani's family is safe. There's no reason to do what she did aside from making Navani feel like a cool scholar. This honestly ruined what up until then was a very enjoyable book for me, and felt like a very juvenile attempt to make the enemy more powerful before the climax.

Oh yes, finally somebody said this. I fully agree. Navani was simply stupid in that book. She never thought about the consequences of her actions, instead she handled the most important discovery in modern Cosmere to Fused and Odium on a silver plate. That was a big problem with RoW for me, and this made me very irritated in many places. She was constantly tricked and deluded by Raboniel, she knew Raboniel was manipulating her, she knew Raboniel lied to her and listened to her conversations with the Sibling, and yet she still did precisely what Raboniel wanted her to do, without even thinking about it. How could she ever believe that she was capable of hiding the truth in her cell, while being under constant observation? How could she believe that she could protect her notes with a simple cypher and some gibberish, while they have spren whose sole purpose is to decipher notes? How could she believe that she could hide her notes in her prison cell? How could she believe that Raboniel wanted to kill Odium, a god?

But I can understand why she behaved like that - she was never engaged in a big scientific work up until this point. She lacked experience. She was lured by Raboniel's sweet words, promises, lies and freedom to research things which fascinated her, but she couldn't grasp the consequences of her actions, because she didn't think like a scientist, she lacked basic knowledge of Cosmare and failed to understand what anti-light really is. What this discovery really meant.

"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should." - Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park.

Edited August 28, 2023 by alder24

[Firesong she/her]

20 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Oh yes, finally somebody said this. I fully agree. Navani was simply stupid in that book. She never thought about the consequences of her actions, instead she handled the most important discovery in modern Cosmere to Fused and Odium on a silver plate. That was a big problem with RoW for me, and this made me very irritated in many places. She was constantly tripped and deluded by Raboniel, she knew Raboniel was manipulating her, she knew Raboniel lied to her and listened to her conversations with the Sibling, and yet she still did precisely what Raboniel wanted her to do, without even thinking about it. How could she ever believe that she was capable of hiding the truth in her cell, while being under constant observation? How could she believe that she could protect her notes with a simple cypher and some gibberish, while they have spren whose sole purpose is to decipher notes? How could she believe that she could hide her notes in her prison cell? How could she believe that Raboniel wanted to kill Odium, a god?

But I can understand why she behaved like that - she was never engaged in a big scientific work up until this point. She lacked experience. She was lured by Raboniel's sweet words, promises, lies and freedom to research things which fascinated her, but she couldn't grasp the consequences of her actions, because she didn't think like a scientist, she lacked basic knowledge of Cosmare and failed to understand what anti-light really is. What this discovery really meant.

"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should." - Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park.

I mean, a lot of what Raboniel said was the truth, though. 

Quote

WeiryWriter

In a lot of Navani's viewpoints, Navani is very uncertain of how genuine is Raboniel being. Beyond the obvious deceit considering her true intentions. Did she really not know about Sunraiser being Elhokar's Blade, how true was her grief over her daughter's death, and with Venli what were her intentions, revealing the survival of the listeners and dismissing her from service. I just love Raboniel. I want to know everything about Raboniel.

Brandon Sanderson

I will only answer one of those. Her grief over her daughter's death was completely authentic, as was her desire for bringing an end to the war. That part of her is completely authentic and legitimate. Her motive is to make sure [the war] can't keep going; whether she's right in that, wether it can keep going or not, is a subject for discussion. But she believed this was the best way to make sure the fighting ended, that was her primary goal, and that was at cross purposes even at times even with Odium. So that is legit. Some of the other stuff I will leave subject to reader interpretation.

She was actually not the biggest fan of Odium and his intentions. I feel like she does actually want Odium gone as part of the reason for the war continuing for so long, and for the war happening in the first place, all goes back to Odium. So that was all rather genuine. I feel that her being excited by the idea that humans and Fused could join together (as a thematic connection to Stormlight and Voidlight being able to mix) was also genuine.

I do feel you are looking at her in the worst of lights, in assuming everything she said was a lie. 

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I mean, a lot of what Raboniel said was the truth, though. 

She was actually not the biggest fan of Odium and his intentions. I feel like she does actually want Odium gone as part of the reason for the war continuing for so long, and for the war happening in the first place, all goes back to Odium. So that was all rather genuine. I feel that her being excited by the idea that humans and Fused could join together (as a thematic connection to Stormlight and Voidlight being able to mix) was also genuine.

I do feel you are looking at her in the worst of lights, in assuming everything she said was a lie. 

No. I have no doubts that Raboniels feelings were true as she showed them, that she really wanted to end the war, no matter the outcome, that she wanted Odium gone, that she wanted to work with Navani as equal, and was fascinated by her work - but she also clearly deceived Navani, lied to her constantly, even admitted that Odium can't be killed by them - she lied about possibility of killing Odium, because she wanted Navani to be blinded by it. Navani, who already experienced a toxic and distrustful relationship with Gavilar, somehow forgot about all of this, and jumped straight into whatever Raboniel said to her, naive and trusting. That's irritating. That's where my problem is. That she didn't stop and think about what else Raboniel said to her, that could be a lie, after she was proven how deep Raboniel's manipulation reached, and she was outmatched costing another Sibling's node. Instead of working with Raboniel and creating Warlight, instead of jumping into that work to prove herself, Navani should have just thought about everything that happened since they started to work together, she should have thought why Raboniel wants anti-light so badly - then she might have realized that if she can made anti-Voidlight, then anti-Stormlight can be made too with the same method, and if that's possible, then spren can be killed permanently. That was so obvious and yet Navani was so surprised when Raboniel told her that.

She wanted to make notes? How about burning them, instead of handing them over to Raboniel as she had a flame to burn prayers? Dismantle the machine, change it, destroy the plate of anti-Voidlight, create false routes for them to follow, false machines. Such simple solutions she could have used if she wanted to pursue the research but would prevent this discovery to fall into Odium's hands, or at least delay them significantly. Instead she did exactly what Raboniel wanted her to do, and naively fell for her manipulations - for the third time. 

And I do have a slight problem with Navani considering Raboniel a hero at the end. Yes, she stood in her defense, she saved her life, but she also broke her trust in every single moment of their interaction. One good deed doesn’t erase hundreds of bad ones. That wasn't heroism, that wasn't a friendship, that was simply abuse.

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

 Navani, who already experienced a toxic and distrustful relationship with Gavilar, somehow forgot about all of this, and jumped straight into whatever Raboniel said to her, naive and trusting. That's irritating.

It is not naivitae, it is simply that Raboniel is the first person in her life that validates her as scientist and she can take it seriously.
Sure, Navani's subordinates were asking her for input, but that was something Navani was able to dismiss because of the difference in station.
But with Raboniel, Navani (or her inferiority complex more like it) has no way to dismiss it, because Raboniel has no reason to butter her up.

So of course she will try to do something. Combine it with the fact that they had no idea when help would be coming and they have to figure out a way to defend Sibling, of course she would try something.

And she did not even trust Raboniel that much, she kept lying to her as much as she could get away with, she used pretense of experimentation on fabrials to rig up traps and weapons (which she actually succefully used against Fused and Raboniel, and without them she would die).

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Instead of working with Raboniel and creating Warlight, instead of jumping into that work to prove herself, Navani should have just thought about everything that happened since they started to work together, she should have thought why Raboniel wants anti-light so badly - then she might have realized that if she can made anti-Voidlight, then anti-Stormlight can be made too with the same method, and if that's possible, then spren can be killed permanently. That was so obvious and yet Navani was so surprised when Raboniel told her that.

We the readers have the perspective that spren and Fused are basically the same thing, pieces of sentient Investiture. Navani has no idea about any of that, she does not know about Shards, Cognitive Shadows, nothing.

To her, spren are pieces of divinity, and yes they can be manipulated via emotions/actions and certain sounds. And Fused are 'souls' of ancient Singers possessing living ones. That sounds quite different.

But to jump from that information to "Fused are basically spren, hence what kills Fused kills spren" is not so obvious. It is obvious to us because we know a lot more than Navani.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

She wanted to make notes? How about burning them, instead of handing them over to Raboniel as she had a flame to burn prayers? Dismantle the machine, change it, destroy the plate of anti-Voidlight, create false routes for them to follow, false machines. Such simple solutions she could have used if she wanted to pursue the research but would prevent this discovery to fall into Odium's hands, or at least delay them significantly. Instead she did exactly what Raboniel wanted her to do, and naively fell for her manipulations - for the third time.

That is not at all what happens. She needed Raboniel to verify if anti-Voidlight could be created in the first place, and then Navani manipulated Raboniel to try and mix anti-Voidlight with Voidlight in an attempt to kill Raboniel.

How can you call that naive? She literally used Raboniel to verify her theory, and then tried to kill her (temporarily at least). If she succeeded

• Raboniel would be removed from Tower for a while, stopping Siblings corruption
• Navani would be freed from her oversight and could work out how to weaponize anti-Light without risk of being discovered. (and to cover her tracks like you suggest)
• Navani's notes would be destroyed in the explosion, so Raboniel would not get the information on how to make anti-Light

Navani took a gamble and sadly it did not pay off, but she was not naive at all and did the things for her reasons not Raboniel's. She lured in Raboniel with honesty, and then used knowledge she kept from her to try and assassinate her.

Edited August 28, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration he/him]

Yeah Navani in RoW is probably the stupidest any character in SA has ever been, and I include Shallan in that assessment.

 

She admits that she still believes Vorinism, and yet when a literal demon from that religion offers her a deal she takes it.

 

I'm sorry but there are fewer red flags in a communist military parade.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Frustration

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, therunner said:

It is not naivitae, it is simply that Raboniel is the first person in her life that validates her as scientist and she can take it seriously.
Sure, Navani's subordinates were asking her for input, but that was something Navani was able to dismiss because of the difference in station.
But with Raboniel, Navani (or her inferiority complex more like it) has no way to dismiss it, because Raboniel has no reason to butter her up.

So of course she will try to do something. Combine it with the fact that they had no idea when help would be coming and they have to figure out a way to defend Sibling, of course she would try something.

And she did not even trust Raboniel that much, she kept lying to her as much as she could get away with, she used pretense of experimentation on fabrials to rig up traps and weapons (which she actually succefully used against Fused and Raboniel, and without them she would die).

It was naive to think that Raboniel will leave the tower (or whatever she'd promised her) after they merged lights. It was naive to think that what Raboniel wants her to make would be harmless to your side, and would be the key to liberation or even would kill a god. It was naive to think that she could hold secrets from Raboniel. She didn't make any real preparation to protect her discovery from falling into Fused hands. Few traps in a hallway isn't any kind of defense.

I agree with reasons why Navani did it, as I've said basically the same thing in my first post, but the trusting part was referring to trusting in her abilities to deceive Fused (I should be more clear with this one). With what? She did nothing which would stop them from learning about her discovery. The simplest thing was to destroy the plate she'd made, break the gem.

26 minutes ago, therunner said:

We the readers have the perspective that spren and Fused are basically the same thing, pieces of sentient Investiture. Navani has no idea about any of that, she does not know about Shards, Cognitive Shadows, nothing.

To her, spren are pieces of divinity, and yes they can be manipulated via emotions/actions and certain sounds. And Fused are 'souls' of ancient Singers possessing living ones. That sounds quite different.

But to jump from that information to "Fused are basically spren, hence what kills Fused kills spren" is not so obvious. It is obvious to us because we know a lot more than Navani.

That's why I said in the first post that she lacked basic knowledge of Cosmere. But this connection wouldn't be made through Fused, but through Odium - she believed that Odium can be killed via anti-light, she knew, or at least should have known, that spren are pieces of gods - if anti-light can kill a god, it can certainly kill a spren. That's the connection she should have made immediately.

38 minutes ago, therunner said:

That is not at all what happens. She needed Raboniel to verify if anti-Voidlight could be created in the first place

She didn't need her, she knew she succeeded because of how the Voidlight reacted to the sound. She knew it could be created because she held Gavilar's sphere with anti-Voidlight in it. 

40 minutes ago, therunner said:

and then Navani manipulated Raboniel to try and mix anti-Voidlight with Voidlight in an attempt to kill Raboniel.

She hoped to kill Raboniel with an accidental explosion, and then what? Hundreds of other Fused and Regals would be there to punish her, and discover what had happened. And Raboniel would simply Return during the next Everstorm. That was her whole plan? Making a weapon and literally announcing to your enemies that you did it and giving them your notes, plates and everything on a silver plate? That's the plan? To make them know? She did great. RoW ch 97:

Quote

Navani debated. She knew that Raboniel wasn’t lying; the Fused would rip this room apart to find Navani’s notes. Beyond that, she’d likely take away Navani’s ability to requisition supplies—halting her progress.
And she was so close.
With a sigh, Navani crossed the room and took her notebook—the one they’d named Rhythm of War—from a hidden spot under one of the shelves. Perhaps Navani should have kept all of her discoveries in her head, but she’d been unable to resist writing them down. She’d needed to see her ideas on the page, to use notes, to get as far as she had.

Burning notes sounds like a really good, yet simple idea, don't you agree?

 

41 minutes ago, therunner said:

• Raboniel would be removed from Tower for a while, stopping Siblings corruption

For a few days... And then what?

42 minutes ago, therunner said:

• Navani would be freed from her oversight and could work out how to weaponize anti-Light without risk of being discovered. (and to cover her tracks like you suggest)

Because there are no other Fused and Regals in the Tower that would immediately interrogate her to know what had happened. Because they wouldn't refuse Navani everything she would need to create more anti-light with an excuse that "they will wait for Raboniel's Return", or worse, Pursuer or Moash would assume control over the Tower and simply kill her as they weren't that lenient toward her as Raboniel. Because she didn't hand over all of her notes before Raboniel attempted to merge lights. Not a great plan. 

49 minutes ago, therunner said:

• Navani's notes would be destroyed in the explosion, so Raboniel would not get the information on how to make anti-Light

Unless she demanded them first, which she did. And unless Navani took notes with her when leaving the room - which she did. But the explosion also could have taken the only piece of equipment needed to create anti-light - she wouldn't be able to create any more anti-light if the explosion was as powerful as she'd hoped. 

50 minutes ago, therunner said:

Navani took a gamble and sadly it did not pay off, but she was not naive at all and did the things for her reasons not Raboniel's. She lured in Raboniel with honesty, and then used knowledge she kept from her to try and assassinate her.

And then what? Fused would leave the Tower saying "we tried but our leader is dead"?

Killing one person who would be back in a few days without any plan to follow it is pointless. Navani had no plan at all, she hadn't thought about the consequences of her discovery at all. There was no gamble because there was 0% chance for any favorable outcome. None. She made the discovery to announce to their enemies that anti-light exists and gave them all of the knowledge just like that. Even if she tied to hide or destroy her notes, but still tried to used anti-light to assassinate Raboniel, the very first thing Fused would do with her is to torture her untill she admits what she'd done - and Fused have 7000 years of experience in torturing people. She knows that, they would get that out of her. Using anti-light in such a way is a very, very stupid idea. 

RoW ch 102:

Quote

Raboniel had found the tone.
The tone that could kill spren.
Should Navani feel pride? Even in that time of near madness, her research had been so meticulous and well annotated that Raboniel was able to follow it. What had taken Navani days, the Fused replicated in hours, breaking open a mystery that had stood for thousands of years. Evidence that Navani was a true scholar after all?
No, she thought, staring at the ceiling. No, don’t you dare take that distinction for yourself. If she’d been a scholar, she’d have understood the implications of her work.
She was a child playing dress-up again. A farmer could stumble across a new plant in the wilderness. Did that make him a botanist?

 

[therunner he/him]

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

It was naive to think that Raboniel will leave the tower (or whatever she'd promised her) after they merged lights. It was naive to think that what Raboniel wants her to make would be harmless to your side, and would be the key to liberation or even would kill a god. It was naive to think that she could hold secrets from Raboniel. She didn't make any real preparation to protect her discovery from falling into Fused hands. Few traps in a hallway isn't any kind of defense

The first point I grant you, that was naive. The rest no.

She had no idea it would be harmful to her side, and Raboniel had little idea Navani's discovery would be actually useful. No one ever made anti-Light! Some experienced Cosmere scholars even doubted it was possible! Why should Navani know more than they? You expect unrealistic things.

And she did manage to hold some secrets from Raboniel (explosive nature of interaction, hiding her notes for weeks), so she was not naive in that way. She kept fewer than she wanted, because her enemy had more tools at her disposal.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

I agree with reasons why Navani did it, as I've said basically the same thing in my first post, but the trusting part was referring to trusting in her abilities to deceive Fused (I should be more clear with this one). With what? She did nothing which would stop them from learning about her discovery. The simplest thing was to destroy the plate she'd made, break the gem.

If the explosion was as large as the first one (the only example she had on hand), the plate and gem would be destroyed.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's why I said in the first post that she lacked basic knowledge of Cosmere. But this connection wouldn't be made through Fused, but through Odium - she believed that Odium can be killed via anti-light, she knew, or at least should have known, that spren are pieces of gods - if anti-light can kill a god, it can certainly kill a spren. That's the connection she should have made immediately.

Possible extrapolation true.
Of course if you don't know that gods are made out of same stuff (Investiture), then it is a bit greater stretch.

I do think she would have realized it eventually, but at the time she was tunnel focused on the fact it could kill Fused, and could help them in their situation. Remember that if Coalition looses Tower, the war is basically over. So protecting the Tower is the biggest priority, and everything else is secondary.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

She didn't need her, she knew she succeeded because of how the Voidlight reacted to the sound. She knew it could be created because she held Gavilar's sphere with anti-Voidlight in it.

She needed her to verify anti-Tone has effect on Fused. (and to test making of Warlight later on)
And she explicitly lured her in by feigning need for her to try and kill her.

And Navani did not know for sure Gavilar's sphere held anti-Voidlight, she assumed it but until the explosion she could not be really sure.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

She hoped to kill Raboniel with an accidental explosion, and then what? Hundreds of other Fused and Regals would be there to punish her, and discover what had happened. And Raboniel would simply Return during the next Everstorm. That was her whole plan? Making a weapon and literally announcing to your enemies that you did it and giving them your notes, plates and everything on a silver plate? That's the plan? To make them know? She did great. RoW ch 97:

Why would Fused and Regals punish her?
Rabonial has been established as a bit of a maverick by Fused standards and more feared than liked, and there is precedent for such accidental explosions.
So no, Navani would not be punished.

Raboniel would return soonest during next Everstorm yes, which still grants them 9 days at minimum without her. 9 more days where Sibling cannot be further corrupted.
And it would be possibly longer, depending on where the willing Singer would be.

And while enemy would have knowledge on the fact that anti-Light and Light can make a weapon, they would not have notes or plates because those would be destroyed in explosion or hidden again by Navani, as afterwards no one (outside of Navani) would know of their importance.

I explained the benefits of killing Raboniel already, feel free to re-read them.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

Burning notes sounds like a really good, yet simple idea, don't you agree?

Please read the sentence immediately after the one you highlighted

Quote

Navani debated. She knew that Raboniel wasn’t lying; the Fused would rip this room apart to find Navani’s notes. Beyond that, she’d likely take away Navani’s ability to requisition supplies—halting her progress.
And she was so close.
With a sigh, Navani crossed the room and took her notebook—the one they’d named Rhythm of War—from a hidden spot under one of the shelves. Perhaps Navani should have kept all of her discoveries in her head, but she’d been unable to resist writing them down. She’d needed to see her ideas on the page, to use notes, to get as far as she had.

Without those notes, there would be no anti-Light. If you ever tried to research something, you know you won't be able to make progress without making notes.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

For a few days... And then what?

Then they would try something else.
Do you raise same criticism to Kaladin when he was defending the nodes (as they would also only buy few days). Or Dalinar when he made the deal with Odium? Peace for 10 days and then what?

It would be 9 days during which Kaladin could get a small break to gather strength, and equipment. 9 days to signal someone. 9 days for Dalinar to notice and send help. Guaranteed 9 days where Sibling would not be further corrupted, and during which he could be convinced to bond someone which they thought could help.
During siege every single day counts.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

Because there are no other Fused and Regals in the Tower that would immediately interrogate her to know what had happened.

Sure they would interrogate her. And she would simply tell them she has no idea what exactly happened (kinda true) and that they had similar accident few weeks earlier, fact confirmed by independant interrogations.
Fused and Regals would have no way of knowing what happened there.

Quote

Because they wouldn't refuse Navani everything she would need to create more anti-light with an excuse that "they will wait for Raboniel's Return",

If they did refuse her to continue her experiments, she could still continue theoretical work.

Quote

or worse, Pursuer or Moash would assume control over the Tower and simply kill her as they weren't that lenient toward her as Raboniel.

Why would Pursuer or Moash kill her at that point? Pursuer does not care about her at all, he is fixated on Kaladin.
Moash was also fixated on breaking Kaladin. He could have killed her at any point during occupation, but he did not care until after Kaladin was taken care of.
So they would have no reason, yet.

Quote

Because she didn't hand over all of her notes before Raboniel attempted to merge lights.

Why does that matter? Those notes probably don't contain sentence 'this will blow up when mixed', or any hint that it is a possibility.
Raboniel red them, and if that was in there, she would not try what she did.

Quote

Not a great plan.

Yes a great plan, considering the situation she was working in.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

 Unless she demanded them first, which she did. And unless Navani took notes with her when leaving the room - which she did. .

So which is it? Navani is stupid because she handed over her notes to Raboniel, or that she took them back?
Because if her plan works, knowledge stays with Navani and no one else. She was successfully hiding the notebook for days or weeks, she could keep hiding it for few more days.

Quote

But the explosion also could have taken the only piece of equipment needed to create anti-light - she wouldn't be able to create any more anti-light if the explosion was as powerful as she'd hoped

She can make more, she is the one who figured out how to make the plates. And she can continue her theoretical work, which is what got her so far.

And loosing the ability to make it for a while, but giving Kaladin and Sibling several days of peace to plan is a worthwhile trade.

End game for Navani isn't 'make anti-Light and use it to fight', it's 'protect Sibling', because if Sibling is Unmade they are screwed. Her plan was working towards that goal, and she got relatively close.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

And then what? Fused would leave the Tower saying "we tried but our leader is dead"?

No that is obviously dumb thing to think would happen.

But Coalition gets more time. Sibling gets more time. And during that time, things can happen, like Coalition noticing the issue with Tower (and they were already suspicious by then) and sends help. Or they find the rest of nodes and figure out a way to seal them off or better protect them. Or how to infuse them with Stormlight to at least partially counteract the Unaming in progress.

There is a lot that could happen.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

Killing one person who would be back in a few days without any plan to follow it is pointless. Navani had no plan at all, she hadn't thought about the consequences of her discovery at all.

Yes she had plan (buy time to protect Sibling), and yes she did. She did not think all the consequences of her discovery, but frankly no one ever does.
See Oppenheimer and Manhatten project, they detonated first nuke not being fully sure (just pretty sure) it would not destroy the planet. That is faar riskier than what Navani did.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

 There was no gamble because there was 0% chance for any favorable outcome. None.

Yes there was favorable outcome, killing Raboniel protects Sibling for a time and gives them space to figure out better tactics. It is not so difficult.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

 She made the discovery to announce to their enemies that anti-light exists and gave them all of the knowledge just like that.

Don't straw man her actions.
She made the discovery to try and figure out a way to destroy Odium. She used that discovery to try and kill Raboniel.
She let Raboniel read her notes to lure her in her trap, but she took the knowledge back immediately. If the plan work, enemy would not have knowledge at all.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

 Even if she tied to hide or destroy her notes, but still tried to used anti-light to assassinate Raboniel, the very first thing Fused would do with her is to torture her untill she admits what she'd done - and Fused have 7000 years of experience in torturing people.

Why would they immediately torture her? They know she cooperated with Raboniel, they would learn quickly there similar accident happened earlier and Coalition does not know why the accident happened.
They have no reason to torture her or suspect Navani or suspect that the explosion was caused by such a monumental discovery.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

RoW ch 102:

Quote

Raboniel had found the tone.
The tone that could kill spren.
Should Navani feel pride? Even in that time of near madness, her research had been so meticulous and well annotated that Raboniel was able to follow it. What had taken Navani days, the Fused replicated in hours, breaking open a mystery that had stood for thousands of years. Evidence that Navani was a true scholar after all?
No, she thought, staring at the ceiling. No, don’t you dare take that distinction for yourself. If she’d been a scholar, she’d have understood the implications of her work.
She was a child playing dress-up again. A farmer could stumble across a new plant in the wilderness. Did that make him a botanist?

 

Not sure why you are highlighting that. That is clearly her inferiority complex talking.
Do we take Kaladins thoughts about how he is useless and should kill himself seriously? No we don't, because we understand it is not true.

And the above is not true about Navani. She is scholar, probably among the best in Cosmere. She understands a lot about her work, but not all because she is not perfect (and she was working under non-ideal conditions).

Frankly I don't mind that people criticize Navani, she is not perfect. But I don't like how people ignore her intentions and plans to make her look dumb, and don't give her any credit for her successes or benefit of doubt that perhaps she had a plan (which she often does and it is actually said in the book!).

Ending hot take: Navani at the end of RoW is more worthy of being Bondsmith than Dalinar was at the end of WoR.

Edited August 29, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

Just to be clear - it's fine that you disagree with me. It's your opinion and I respect that. I'm trying to explain my position and my problems with Navani's actions. She got played so easily by Raboniel, believed in her lies, and never considered the consequences of her actions. She had never thought about what anti-light really meant. Her plan was just bad. She was great in the first half of RoW, but then she jumped from the top of Urithiru straight into the bottom of the sea in my opinion. I see why she failed like she did, which I explained in the first post, but I've expected more from her, she should be able to do more than that. Her emotions took control over her, she tried to prove that she is a worthy scientist, but she did exactly the opposite. That's my opinion. It's fine that you have a different one and I'm glad you've enjoyed her in RoW. 

 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

She had no idea it would be harmful to her side, and Raboniel had little idea Navani's discovery would be actually useful.

That's the point. She should have thought about why Raboniel wants it, thinking that Raboniel has a malicious intent. Rabioniel said she wants to kill Odium, how could Navani ever believe in that, even if Raboniel was partially honest? Raboniel knew no amount of anti-Voidlight would ever kill Odium, mortals can’t do that - Raboniel lied to Navani, and Navani fell for that obvious lie without questioning it.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

And she did manage to hold some secrets from Raboniel (explosive nature of interaction, hiding her notes for weeks), so she was not naive in that way. She kept fewer than she wanted, because her enemy had more tools at her disposal.

That was their notebook, they were writing notes together iirc, or at least Raboniel referred to it as their notebook. Navani hid no notes from Raboniel. And that’s my problem. The only thing Navani needed to do is to burn notes after the discovery of anti-light - if she understood implications of that discovery, but she didn't.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Possible extrapolation true.
Of course if you don't know that gods are made out of same stuff (Investiture), then it is a bit greater stretch.

You don't need to know that. Navani knew two things - Odium "can" be killed by anti-Voidlight, and spren are pieces of their gods. It's easy to make a hypothesis that Voidspren can be killed by anti-Voidlight, if they're pieces of Odium.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

I do think she would have realized it eventually, but at the time she was tunnel focused on the fact it could kill Fused, and could help them in their situation. Remember that if Coalition looses Tower, the war is basically over. So protecting the Tower is the biggest priority, and everything else is secondary.

 

She didn't know that until Raboniel actually killed her daughter in front of her. Navani was only told that it can kill Odium, not Fused.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

She needed her to verify anti-Tone has effect on Fused. (and to test making of Warlight later on)
And she explicitly lured her in by feigning need for her to try and kill her.

In my opinion her plan of killing Raboniel was really stupid, so everything she did to accomplish that was also stupid. 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

And Navani did not know for sure Gavilar's sphere held anti-Voidlight, she assumed it but until the explosion she could not be really sure.

She knew, RoW ch 76:

Quote

"I thought if I could discover this opposite Light, then we would have power over the gods themselves. Would that not be the power to end a war?”
Storms. That was what he’d wanted. That was what Gavilar had been doing.
Gemstones. Voidlight. A strange sphere that exploded when affixed to a fabrial … when mixed with another Light …
Gavilar Kholin—king, husband, occasional monster—had been searching for a way to kill a god.
Suddenly, the extent of his arrogance—and his magnificent planning— snapped together for Navani. She knew something Raboniel did not. There was an opposite to Voidlight. It wasn’t Stormlight. Nor was it this new mixed Light they’d created. But Navani had seen it. Held it. Her husband had given it to Szeth, who had given it to her.
By the holiest name of the Almighty … she thought. It makes sense. But like all great revelations, it led to a multitude of new questions. Why? How?

 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Why would Fused and Regals punish her?

Interrogate, and then punish if they found her guilty. She was the last person who spoke with Raboniel - many would be rightfully suspicious and I see no reason why they wouldn't at least lock her in a cell until Raboniel returns. That's the smart thing to do.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

And while enemy would have knowledge on the fact that anti-Light and Light can make a weapon, they would not have notes or plates because those would be destroyed in explosion or hidden again by Navani, as afterwards no one (outside of Navani) would know of their importance.

They would - Raboniel read her notes, Navani handed them to her willingly. Raboniel knew and could recreate that, slower without notes but still she was able to do that. 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

I explained the benefits of killing Raboniel already, feel free to re-read them.

The only point you have is potential delay in Unmaking - but Navani was unable to contact anybody, as the Sibling not only was observed, but unwilling to speak to Navani. Navani had no way of communicating with Kaladin at all, and therefore all she would accomplish was a few day delay with no plan to use that situation to their advantage. 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Please read the sentence immediately after the one you highlighted

Quote

Navani debated. She knew that Raboniel wasn’t lying; the Fused would rip this room apart to find Navani’s notes. Beyond that, she’d likely take away Navani’s ability to requisition supplies—halting her progress.
And she was so close.
With a sigh, Navani crossed the room and took her notebook—the one they’d named Rhythm of War—from a hidden spot under one of the shelves. Perhaps Navani should have kept all of her discoveries in her head, but she’d been unable to resist writing them down. She’d needed to see her ideas on the page, to use notes, to get as far as she had.

Without those notes, there would be no anti-Light. If you ever tried to research something, you know you won't be able to make progress without making notes.

Burn her notebook AFTER she discovered anti-light, to prevent the knowledge from falling into Fused hands... Of course she needed it before. 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Then they would try something else.
Do you raise same criticism to Kaladin when he was defending the nodes (as they would also only buy few days). Or Dalinar when he made the deal with Odium? Peace for 10 days and then what?

Dalinar didn't make peace for 10 days - the war is still going on. He will fight and then they will have peace, no matter the outcome. That's future planning. Navani had no plans for what would happen after killing Raboniel. Nothing to follow.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Sure they would interrogate her. And she would simply tell them she has no idea what exactly happened (kinda true) and that they had similar accident few weeks earlier, fact confirmed by independant interrogations.
Fused and Regals would have no way of knowing what happened there.

Yes, they don't know, that's why they would suspect Navani was somehow involved. After all, she was already caught red handed plotting against Raboniel and communicating with Kaladin through the Sibling. They knew she was working against them, and at the very least, they would lock her up in a cell, waiting for Raboniel's return. At worst, some crazy Fused would assume she did it and kill her or torture her. 

3 hours ago, therunner said:

If they did refuse her to continue her experiments, she could still continue theoretical work.

And how would she liberate the Tower with her theoretical work? Sure she could, but Raboniel already knows anti-light can be made and how to make it. It was too late to think about the consequences of her discovery.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Why would Pursuer or Moash kill her at that point? Pursuer does not care about her at all, he is fixated on Kaladin.
Moash was also fixated on breaking Kaladin. He could have killed her at any point during occupation, but he did not care until after Kaladin was taken care of.
So they would have no reason, yet.

Because they knew it's the best way to hurt Dalinar, but Raboniel refused to do that. The only way Navani lived so long is because Raboniel protected her. Kill Raboniel, Navani is left without protection. Others wouldn't care about that and would just kill her using Raboniel's absence as an opportunity. Moash literally went to Raboniel to kill Navani - Odium ordered him to do that. RoW ch 102:

Quote

“The best way to distract the Bondsmith is to kill his wife,” the voice said. Rough, cold. “I am therefore here to perform the act that you have so far refused to do.” 
[...]
“My orders are from Odium himself,” Moash said

 

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Why does that matter? Those notes probably don't contain sentence 'this will blow up when mixed', or any hint that it is a possibility.
Raboniel red them, and if that was in there, she would not try what she did.

So which is it? Navani is stupid because she handed over her notes to Raboniel, or that she took them back?
Because if her plan works, knowledge stays with Navani and no one else. She was successfully hiding the notebook for days or weeks, she could keep hiding it for few more days.

My point is that Navani should do everything that is possible to deny them this knowledge. Everything. Not give them her notes to read while sipping tea on a comfy chair. Burn them, throw them behind boxes in the hallway instead of returning with them to Raboniel, and pretend they were destroyed in the explosion. Something other than what she did. The plan to kill Raboniel was still stupid but she did nothing to prevent them from quickly recreating that experiment. She didn't even try to hide her notes after taking them from Raboniel, she just gave them back to her. That was sooooo stupid. So no, she wasn't successful at hiding her notes at all - she gave them back immediately.

Navani hid no notes from Raboniel, they were working on them together, Raboniel knew Navani was making notes, and knew she had them in this room. That's no success. She wouldn't be able to hide those notes. And she gave them to Raboniel, Raboniel knew how to make anti-light, they made it together.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

She can make more, she is the one who figured out how to make the plates. And she can continue her theoretical work, which is what got her so far.

She can't make more, Fused wouldn't allow her to have any equipment, especially the same one that was involved in Raboniel's death. Raboniel can make it, not Navani. 

3 hours ago, therunner said:

And loosing the ability to make it for a while, but giving Kaladin and Sibling several days of peace to plan is a worthwhile trade.

End game for Navani isn't 'make anti-Light and use it to fight', it's 'protect Sibling', because if Sibling is Unmade they are screwed. Her plan was working towards that goal, and she got relatively close.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Or they find the rest of nodes and figure out a way to seal them off or better protect them. Or how to infuse them with Stormlight to at least partially counteract the Unaming in progress.

Not really, they knew where the last node is for a some time, Raboniel delayed them to manipulate Navani. They wouldn't be able to counteract Unmaking.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Yes she had plan (buy time to protect Sibling), and yes she did. She did not think all the consequences of her discovery, but frankly no one ever does.
See Oppenheimer and Manhatten project, they detonated first nuke not being fully sure (just pretty sure) it would not destroy the planet. That is faar riskier than what Navani did.

The Manhattan project was the exact opposite. They thought about the possibility of igniting the atmosphere, they calculated the safety factor to be 5000, which meant that it was practically impossible for them to ignite the atmosphere - and that's the conclusion they've reached. They did their homework.

Navani did nothing like that. She didn't think about any consequences of anti-light discovery, nor for what it could be used for. She just made it just as Raboniel wanted. Anti-light safety factor is 0 because they've used it to kill spren. Navani failed. 

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Don't straw man her actions.
She made the discovery to try and figure out a way to destroy Odium. She used that discovery to try and kill Raboniel.
She let Raboniel read her notes to lure her in her trap, but she took the knowledge back immediately. If the plan work, enemy would not have knowledge at all.

Raboniel would know. That's why that plan was stupid. She fully trusted Raboniel's words that it could kill Odium, instead of looking for hidden reasons.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Why would they immediately torture her? They know she cooperated with Raboniel, they would learn quickly there similar accident happened earlier and Coalition does not know why the accident happened.
They have no reason to torture her or suspect Navani or suspect that the explosion was caused by such a monumental discovery.

Raboniel would know....

And that's why they would imprison her because Navani would be suspected of being involved in that accident (as she conveniently left the room just right before the explosion) and was already caught conspiring against them. That's enough reasons to torture her if I were unstable Fuesed.

"Oh look - she left the room just before the explosion with a book, better let her go and don't question her or look into that book..." The first thing they would do is capture her, take that book from her, decipher it and question Navani. She had no way of hiding her discovery even if she was successful in killing Raboniel. 

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Not sure why you are highlighting that. That is clearly her inferiority complex talking.

Because I agree with that. She had finally thought about the consequences of her discovery and realized what a terrible mistake she had made. Inferiority complex or not, giving anti-light to Fused was a disastrous mistake. 

3 hours ago, therunner said:

And the above is not true about Navani. She is scholar, probably among the best in Cosmere. She understands a lot about her work, but not all because she is not perfect (and she was working under non-ideal conditions).

Up until this point she didn't do any serious scientific work on her own, she always had a team of people to which she gave an idea and they worked on all problems with that. She didn't know how to do a project like that, and how to assess risk and predict consequences. She had failed because of lack of knowledge and experience with scientific work. She clearly learnt from her mistakes by the end, that’s good, that's character development. For that she deserved credits. But she fully deserves condemnation for giving up the secret of anti-light directly into Fused hands. She failed.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Frankly I don't mind that people criticize Navani, she is not perfect. But I don't like how people ignore her intentions and plans to make her look dumb, and don't give her any credit for her successes or benefit of doubt that perhaps she had a plan (which she often does and it is actually said in the book!).

She had a plan, it was a very bad plan. 

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Ending hot take: Navani at the end of RoW is more worthy of being Bondsmith than Dalinar was at the end of WoR.

What? No way. Navani almost bullied the Sibling into the bond. She still has to prove herself to the Sibling by changing the way she treats spren and fabrials, then she will be worthy.

[Frustration he/him]

10 hours ago, therunner said:

Not sure why you are highlighting that. That is clearly her inferiority complex talking.

It's not an inferiority complex if it's true.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

Ending hot take: Navani at the end of RoW is more worthy of being Bondsmith than Dalinar was at the end of WoR.

When you bypass one of the few remaining checks on Bondsmith powers you aren't worthy.

 

Now instead of arguing about whether what Navani did was stupid or not, I will rather posit what a smart person would have done in the same situation.

 

When the Fused invaded every effort should have been made to stop them and make their occupation harder.

Navani did this perfectly.

 

When surrendering to the Fused Raboniel offers her a deal, one that she has no real benefit from accepting, and one with no obvious benefit to Raboniel.

The smart thing to do would be to dismiss the deal outright. Anytime your opponent offers you a deal you should assume that they have their best interests at heart, not yours. If you can't find how they benefit that's a reason to be more cautious, not less.

This is where any argument of Navani not being a complete idiot falls apart. She accepted the deal, not for any tactical reason, not because it's a good deal for her, but because she couldn't deal with not getting to play with fabrials.

[therunner he/him]

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

Just to be clear - it's fine that you disagree with me. It's your opinion and I respect that. I'm trying to explain my position and my problems with Navani's actions. She got played so easily by Raboniel, believed in her lies, and never considered the consequences of her actions. She had never thought about what anti-light really meant. Her plan was just bad. She was great in the first half of RoW, but then she jumped from the top of Urithiru straight into the bottom of the sea in my opinion. I see why she failed like she did, which I explained in the first post, but I've expected more from her, she should be able to do more than that. Her emotions took control over her, she tried to prove that she is a worthy scientist, but she did exactly the opposite. That's my opinion. It's fine that you have a different one and I'm glad you've enjoyed her in RoW.

Fair.
I think people are judging her overly harshly, and frankly misremember the circumstances.

And I would say she succeeded as scientist and more than proved her worth. Measure of scientist isn't 'thinking through all possible political, military and real life implications' because that simply is not possible. Job of scientist is to discover and understand the world. She did that, and she did something no one else ever did. If that is not success worthy of a scientist then nothing is. Her failures have nothing to do with science.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's the point. She should have thought about why Raboniel wants it, thinking that Raboniel has a malicious intent. Rabioniel said she wants to kill Odium, how could Navani ever believe in that, even if Raboniel was partially honest? Raboniel knew no amount of anti-Voidlight would ever kill Odium, mortals can’t do that - Raboniel lied to Navani, and Navani fell for that obvious lie without questioning it.

What? She did question Raboniel!
At first she cooperates solely because Raboniel is threatening her scientists, and she intentionally has her scientist (and herself) do meaningless work. She used the fact that they still had access to fabrials to supply Kaladin with crucial equipment (the glove and working gemstones) without which Kaladin would have died. Used it to prepare traps before the Pillar room, which helped in the end give her enough time to bond Sibling and save the freaking Tower.

Then the research into Lights is intentionally done so she can reverse what happened to the Tower, and she did succeed in that and without the research she would not (because she would be unable to attune Rhythm of Tower). Without Raboniels knowledge, and idea that Lights can mix, she would have ever succeeded in time.
Application to kill Odium was secondary to her research.

Navani never believed that Raboniel would leave the Tower if she did as asked (RoW pg 767), she reasoned (logically I should add) that Raboniel knows more than she does and so she could get more out of the interaction.

So yeah, Raboniel manipulated Navani and got anti-Light out of it. Navani manipulated Raboniel and got anti-Light, knowledge of merging Lights and saved the Tower.
One side got more, and it ain't the Fused.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

That was their notebook, they were writing notes together iirc, or at least Raboniel referred to it as their notebook. Navani hid no notes from Raboniel. And that’s my problem. The only thing Navani needed to do is to burn notes after the discovery of anti-light - if she understood implications of that discovery, but she didn't.

Ehm no, Navani was hiding the notebook:

Quote

With a sigh, Navani crossed the room and took her notebook - the one they'd named Rhythm of War - from a hidden spot under one of the shelves.

She gave it to Raboniel simply because Raboniel would have found it.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

You don't need to know that. Navani knew two things - Odium "can" be killed by anti-Voidlight, and spren are pieces of their gods. It's easy to make a hypothesis that Voidspren can be killed by anti-Voidlight, if they're pieces of Odium.

Sure it is easy, when you are not under siege, trying to figure out a way to save the centerpoint of your side (the Tower), supply the one remaining soldier (Kaladin), and protect people in your care.
Navani had a lot on her plate.

On top of that, it is not that easy to let go of preconceived notions, scientist or not. For us it is easy to see that hypothesis, because we have no emotional bond to any of those concepts, nor did we live with them for ~50 years. IRL it takes decades before revolutionary theories are accepted and taken for granted.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

She didn't know that until Raboniel actually killed her daughter in front of her. Navani was only told that it can kill Odium, not Fused.

She literally just discovered the Light. It's not like she had days to think about it.
She does not know that Fused are made out of the same stuff as Odium, and she only sees Raboniel's reaction to the anti-Tone not even minutes before Raboniel kills her daughter.
Navani had no evidence and no reason to make that conclusion.
We do, she does not.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

In my opinion her plan of killing Raboniel was really stupid, so everything she did to accomplish that was also stupid.

Why is it stupid to kill enemy commander and the only one capable of subverting the Tower?

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

She knew, RoW ch 76:

Alright. That still leaves the point that she used it to try and kill Raboniel.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

Interrogate, and then punish if they found her guilty. She was the last person who spoke with Raboniel - many would be rightfully suspicious and I see no reason why they wouldn't at least lock her in a cell until Raboniel returns. That's the smart thing to do.

Alright, so she is locked and can continue to do some minor research, and she bought Tower a few days.
How is it worse than her current position?

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

They would - Raboniel read her notes, Navani handed them to her willingly. Raboniel knew and could recreate that, slower without notes but still she was able to do that.

You underestimate how easy it would be.
Sure they would do it eventually, but honestly, eventually they would figure it out anyway. Once they would see Fused being killed permanently someone would realize what is happening, and they would either use spies or research to get that knowledge.

At most, Coalition would have a few months were they would kill Fused and they would not be able to kill spren.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

The only point you have is potential delay in Unmaking - but Navani was unable to contact anybody, as the Sibling not only was observed, but unwilling to speak to Navani. Navani had no way of communicating with Kaladin at all, and therefore all she would accomplish was a few day delay with no plan to use that situation to their advantage.

Sibling could communicate what happened to Kaladin, and Kaladin could come up with a plan.
She would have bought them crucial advantage, it is not her fault if they would be unable to exploit it.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

Burn her notebook AFTER she discovered anti-light, to prevent the knowledge from falling into Fused hands... Of course she needed it before.

She discovered anti-Tone in the middle of the night, and the next day Raboniel came to her, shortly after Navani just started thinking about how to use anti-Tone to create anti-Light.
The sphere Raboniel made was the first anti-Light made!

How could she destroy the notebook after she discovered anti-Light, when she only confirmed the discovery with Raboniel?! And the notebook only contained notes on anti-Tone and perhaps some speculation, if even that considering she was only thinking about it when Raboniel arrived.

Seriously, how can you miss that?

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

Dalinar didn't make peace for 10 days - the war is still going on. He will fight and then they will have peace, no matter the outcome. That's future planning. Navani had no plans for what would happen after killing Raboniel. Nothing to follow.

Ah, true, my memory betrayed me.
Though I will point out that those plans possibly include him becoming immortal servant of Odium, with little provisions of how that will affect freaking Stormfather.
That is concerningly large hole.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, they don't know, that's why they would suspect Navani was somehow involved. After all, she was already caught red handed plotting against Raboniel and communicating with Kaladin through the Sibling. They knew she was working against them, and at the very least, they would lock her up in a cell, waiting for Raboniel's return. At worst, some crazy Fused would assume she did it and kill her or torture her.

And after quick interrogation of her and others, they would find out that accident like that happened once before and they don't know the cause.
So, Navani would be perhaps under more suspicion, but there would no evidence.

And she cannot control what Fused would do to her. Do you blame Kaladin for endangering Lirin, Hesina and all the Radiants in infirmary because he is fighting back? Because that is worse than Navani possibly putting herself in danger.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

And how would she liberate the Tower with her theoretical work? Sure she could, but Raboniel already knows anti-light can be made and how to make it. It was too late to think about the consequences of her discovery.

How would she liberate Tower without knowledge of merging Lights which she got from Raboniel?

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

Because they knew it's the best way to hurt Dalinar, but Raboniel refused to do that. The only way Navani lived so long is because Raboniel protected her. Kill Raboniel, Navani is left without protection. Others wouldn't care about that and would just kill her using Raboniel's absence as an opportunity. Moash literally went to Raboniel to kill Navani - Odium ordered him to do that. RoW ch 102:

And how was Navani supposed to know that?
She cannot act on information she does not have.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

My point is that Navani should do everything that is possible to deny them this knowledge. Everything. Not give them her notes to read while sipping tea on a comfy chair. Burn them, throw them behind boxes in the hallway instead of returning with them to Raboniel, and pretend they were destroyed in the explosion. Something other than what she did. The plan to kill Raboniel was still stupid but she did nothing to prevent them from quickly recreating that experiment. She didn't even try to hide her notes after taking them from Raboniel, she just gave them back to her. That was sooooo stupid. So no, she wasn't successful at hiding her notes at all - she gave them back immediately.

Again, those notes were not even day old. She did not have any opportunity to destroy them, until she and Raboniel created anti-Light Navani did not even know her technique with anti-Tone would work.

And re-read the chapter (around pg. 1048) with anti-Light discovery, Navani has no opportunity to do anything you suggest.
She cannot keep the notes hidden, Raboniel knows every room Navani has access to and would found them.
She cannot burn them, or throw them behind boxes because immediately after the explosion happens guards grab her and haul her into the room.

Then there are guards in the room (not good opportunity to hide anything) and after they are sent away Raboniel immediately forces her to repeat the experiment, kills her daughter and ask for notes back.
She could try and pretend they were destroyed, and Raboniel would simply have her person searched and notes found.

Navani never had opportunity to do anything you propose. Not one thing.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

Navani hid no notes from Raboniel, they were working on them together, Raboniel knew Navani was making notes, and knew she had them in this room. That's no success. She wouldn't be able to hide those notes. And she gave them to Raboniel, Raboniel knew how to make anti-light, they made it together.

Once again, yes Navani was hiding the notebook:

Quote

With a sigh, Navani crossed the room and took her notebook - the one they'd named Rhythm of War - from a hidden spot under one of the shelves.

 

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

She can't make more, Fused wouldn't allow her to have any equipment, especially the same one that was involved in Raboniel's death. Raboniel can make it, not Navani.

And Raboniel can't make it until she is reborn, and recreates equipment, which can take additional days.
Navani will be able to make more once she is freed.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not really, they knew where the last node is for a some time, Raboniel delayed them to manipulate Navani. They wouldn't be able to counteract Unmaking.

And without Raboniel they would be unable to corrupt that node, so the plan would have saved Sibling for some time.
And Navani would not know that infusing it with Stormlight would not counteract Unmaking, does not mean she could not try.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

The Manhattan project was the exact opposite. They thought about the possibility of igniting the atmosphere, they calculated the safety factor to be 5000, which meant that it was practically impossible for them to ignite the atmosphere - and that's the conclusion they've reached. They did their homework.

Navani did nothing like that. She didn't think about any consequences of anti-light discovery, nor for what it could be used for. She just made it just as Raboniel wanted. Anti-light safety factor is 0 because they've used it to kill spren. Navani failed.

I'm sorry, I must have forgotten the part were Navani isn't working under threat during enemy occupation, and has teams of dozens of specialist to help her do calculations and think about the problem from multiple angles.

Do you see the problem here? Not to mention she only figured out anti-Tone one day before Raboniel asked her to make anti-Light for the first time. The calculation that nuke coud ignite atmosphere were done in 1942, and idea of nuclear bomb came in 1934. So, yeah, I am willing to cut Navani some slack here, because she did not have 8 years to think about it.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

Raboniel would know. That's why that plan was stupid. She fully trusted Raboniel's words that it could kill Odium, instead of looking for hidden reasons.

And that's why they would imprison her because Navani would be suspected of being involved in that accident (as she conveniently left the room just right before the explosion) and was already caught conspiring against them. That's enough reasons to torture her if I were unstable Fuesed.

"Oh look - she left the room just before the explosion with a book, better let her go and don't question her or look into that book..." The first thing they would do is capture her, take that book from her, decipher it and question Navani. She had no way of hiding her discovery even if she was successful in killing Raboniel. 

And Raboniel would not tell them until after being reborn, and then she would still keep protective hand over Navani.

Good thing the two Fused in leadership positions there are Leswhi (who won't torture her) and Pursuer (who is focused on Kaladin and won't care about Navani).

And neither did she have any way of hiding the discovery at all because it all happened so fast. It wasn't lack of trying, simply lack of opportunity.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

Because I agree with that. She had finally thought about the consequences of her discovery and realized what a terrible mistake she had made. Inferiority complex or not, giving anti-light to Fused was a disastrous mistake.

But she did not ' give it ' to Fused!
She discovered anti-Tone, and couple of hours later (during which she mostly slept) Raboniel asked her to try and make anti-Light using that process.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

Up until this point she didn't do any serious scientific work on her own, she always had a team of people to which she gave an idea and they worked on all problems with that. She didn't know how to do a project like that, and how to assess risk and predict consequences. She had failed because of lack of knowledge and experience with scientific work. She clearly learnt from her mistakes by the end, that’s good, that's character development. For that she deserved credits. But she fully deserves condemnation for giving up the secret of anti-light directly into Fused hands. She failed.

Do you see any arti-fabrians assess risks or predict consequences? I mean, the levitation glove was originally quite horribly designed and it was Navani suggestion that made it practical.

She discovered something no one in ~7000 years did, that is monumental scientific success.

Militarily, her enemy getting access to that knowledge is failure yes, but that has nothing to do with science.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

She had a plan, it was a very bad plan.

It was the best plan she could make under the circumstances, better than doing nothing.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

What? No way. Navani almost bullied the Sibling into the bond. She still has to prove herself to the Sibling by changing the way she treats spren and fabrials, then she will be worthy.

You cannot bully spren into bond.
And you cannot swear Oaths unless you truly understand them.

By end of RoW Navani was demonstrating leadership and uniting skills for decades. She ran kingdom when Gavilar neglected it, she was connecting scientists so they could work together and reach conclusions they never could on their own.

By end of WoR Dalinar was a former bloodthirsty warlord, former drunk, and failed at uniting high princes.

Note: I like Dalinar, he is probably my favourite character in SA, but man, he does not have too many successes under his belt when he becomes Radiant.

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

It's not an inferiority complex if it's true.

Good thing it is not true then.

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

When you bypass one of the few remaining checks on Bondsmith powers you aren't worthy.

She did not bypass anything. She swore an Oath and it was accepted.

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

When surrendering to the Fused Raboniel offers her a deal, one that she has no real benefit from accepting, and one with no obvious benefit to Raboniel.

The smart thing to do would be to dismiss the deal outright. Anytime your opponent offers you a deal you should assume that they have their best interests at heart, not yours. If you can't find how they benefit that's a reason to be more cautious, not less.

Not true, Raboniel has more knowledge than Navani does, so it makes sense for Navani to try and mine her for that information (and she gets information on making of original Fabrials, Tones of Roshar, mixing of Light, Light reacting to Tones and Rhythms), while stonewalling her own side (which she does). Additionally, accepting the deal grants her access to fabrials, which she can (and does) use to help resistance (Kaladin).

And you assume that Raboniel would take no for an answer, which is stupid I think.

Quote

This is where any argument of Navani not being a complete idiot falls apart. She accepted the deal, not for any tactical reason, not because it's a good deal for her, but because she couldn't deal with not getting to play with fabrials.

No you completly misreprensent her reasoning.

The deal was about Navani working for Raboniel on fabrial design. She accepted because she notes that Raboniel would learn their functioning anyway, simply by interogatting her scholars and experimenting with existing pieces (which is true). In that scenario Raboniel would get what she wants (from the deal as stated) anyway, and Navani would have nothing.
Accepting the deal, Navani can stonewall by having her scholars do busy work (which she does), and at the same time learn from Rabonial and maintain access to tools and equipment.

Later on, she accepts research into Lights because that is the only way she can learn anything that could help save Tower. And notably it does.

Had she refused, she would not have knowledge of Rhythms or their merging, would not be in position to bond Sibling, and could not purge Tower and get it fully functional. As a result, even if Kaladin swore 4th Ideal, Tower would be impossible to hold, because Kaladin is still just one person and has to sleep. Unmade Sibling could simply close him off in some room and have him starve.

Navani bonding Sibling was key to Coalition winning in RoW, and it would not be possible without her working with Raboniel.


And regarding anti-Light, I will add that death of Fused hurts Odium's forces more than death of Spren hurts Coalition, because no more Fused are being created, but spren are procreating.
So over time, anti-Light is an advantage for Coalition, even when both sides have the knowledge.

Edited August 30, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Fair.
I think people are judging her overly harshly, and frankly misremember the circumstances.

And I would say she succeeded as scientist and more than proved her worth. Measure of scientist isn't 'thinking through all possible political, military and real life implications' because that simply is not possible. Job of scientist is to discover and understand the world. She did that, and she did something no one else ever did. If that is not success worthy of a scientist then nothing is. Her failures have nothing to do with science.

I can accept that division.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

What? She did question Raboniel!
At first she cooperates solely because Raboniel is threatening her scientists, and she intentionally has her scientist (and herself) do meaningless work. She used the fact that they still had access to fabrials to supply Kaladin with crucial equipment (the glove and working gemstones) without which Kaladin would have died. Used it to prepare traps before the Pillar room, which helped in the end give her enough time to bond Sibling and save the freaking Tower.

Then the research into Lights is intentionally done so she can reverse what happened to the Tower, and she did succeed in that and without the research she would not (because she would be unable to attune Rhythm of Tower). Without Raboniels knowledge, and idea that Lights can mix, she would have ever succeeded in time.
Application to kill Odium was secondary to her research.

I'm not talking about those actions. Yes, she clearly mistrusted Raboniel and tried to work against her. I'm talking about the time when Raboniel said she wanted to kill Odium and Navani blindly believed that. 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Ehm no, Navani was hiding the notebook:

Quote

With a sigh, Navani crossed the room and took her notebook - the one they'd named Rhythm of War - from a hidden spot under one of the shelves.

She gave it to Raboniel simply because Raboniel would have found it.

"the one they'd named Rhythm of War" - My point was that Raboniel knew about the notebook, she knew it's in the room and she was involved in some way with it (don't remember now clearly but she calls the notebook "theirs" on multiple occasions). Navani was unable to completely hid the notebook from Raboniel, because she knew it was there. My problem is that she gave it to Raboniel, she didn't try to destroy it, conseal the knowledge of anti-light. 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Sure it is easy, when you are not under siege, trying to figure out a way to save the centerpoint of your side (the Tower), supply the one remaining soldier (Kaladin), and protect people in your care.
Navani had a lot on her plate.

That doesn't matter. She was able to madly jump into work to discover anti-light without thinking about any of those things, she should have thought first that if Raboniel claims that a god can be killed by it, then spren who are "tiny gods" or "pieces of gods" can be killed as well. Just thinking about the possibilities anti-light brings would lead her to this revelation. She should have thought about consequences of her great discovery, and consequences about letting Fused know about it.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

She didn't know that until Raboniel actually killed her daughter in front of her. Navani was only told that it can kill Odium, not Fused.

She literally just discovered the Light. It's not like she had days to think about it.
She does not know that Fused are made

You claimed that Navani knew Fused can be killed by anti-light before she discovered it, I proved you wrong:

On 29.08.2023 at 9:44 AM, therunner said:

I do think she would have realized it eventually, but at the time she was tunnel focused on the fact it could kill Fused, and could help them in their situation

 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Why is it stupid to kill enemy commander and the only one capable of subverting the Tower?

Because Odium is the commander, because Raboniel will return in a few days, and there are hundreds of other Fused ready to step in and assume control. 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Alright, so she is locked and can continue to do some minor research, and she bought Tower a few days.
How is it worse than her current position?

Because Fused know of anti-light.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

You underestimate how easy it would be.
Sure they would do it eventually, but honestly, eventually they would figure it out anyway. Once they would see Fused being killed permanently someone would realize what is happening, and they would either use spies or research to get that knowledge.

At most, Coalition would have a few months were they would kill Fused and they would not be able to kill spren.

No because Raboniel read her entire process, saw the plate, how it works and helped to make anti-light. It would take them at most a few days to replicate that, and Raboniel had dozens or more scientists to help. 

The Coalition would have no idea about anti-light, because Navani was the only one who knew and was trapped in the Tower.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Sibling could communicate what happened to Kaladin, and Kaladin could come up with a plan.

Sibling was barely present anymore and retreated. They would say anything about Navani as they didn't trust her anymore. Navani was alone.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

She discovered anti-Tone in the middle of the night, and the next day Raboniel came to her, shortly after Navani just started thinking about how to use anti-Tone to create anti-Light.
The sphere Raboniel made was the first anti-Light made!

How could she destroy the notebook after she discovered anti-Light, when she only confirmed the discovery with Raboniel?! And the notebook only contained notes on anti-Tone and perhaps some speculation, if even that considering she was only thinking about it when Raboniel arrived.

Seriously, how can you miss that?

Did you really misunderstand me here? After she discovered the tone, before Raboniel visited her. The very first thing Navani should have done was to burn her notes after she created the plate. 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

And after quick interrogation of her and others, they would find out that accident like that happened once before and they don't know the cause.
So, Navani would be perhaps under more suspicion, but there would no evidence.

That's enough to prevent her from doing anything at all, which is my point.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

And how was Navani supposed to know that?
She cannot act on information she does not have.

She didn't but you claimed they had no reasons to kill her. I proved you wrong:

On 29.08.2023 at 9:44 AM, therunner said:

Why would Pursuer or Moash kill her at that point? Pursuer does not care about her at all, he is fixated on Kaladin.
Moash was also fixated on breaking Kaladin. He could have killed her at any point during occupation, but he did not care until after Kaladin was taken care of.
So they would have no reason, yet.

 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Again, those notes were not even day old. She did not have any opportunity to destroy them, until she and Raboniel created anti-Light Navani did not even know her technique with anti-Tone would work.

And re-read the chapter (around pg. 1048) with anti-Light discovery, Navani has no opportunity to do anything you suggest.
She cannot keep the notes hidden, Raboniel knows every room Navani has access to and would found them.
She cannot burn them, or throw them behind boxes because immediately after the explosion happens guards grab her and haul her into the room.

Then there are guards in the room (not good opportunity to hide anything) and after they are sent away Raboniel immediately forces her to repeat the experiment, kills her daughter and ask for notes back.
She could try and pretend they were destroyed, and Raboniel would simply have her person searched and notes found.

Navani never had opportunity to do anything you propose. Not one thing.

There are a lot of things Navani managed to do after the discovery of anti-tone (I specify it for you, I used anti-light to talk about both tone and light), she even washed - that's plenty of time to BURN HER NOTES! RoW ch 97 (please use ch, not pages):

Quote

The next day—washed and feeling slightly less insane—Navani incremented. She tested how loud the tone needed to be to produce the desired effect. She measured the tone on different sizes of gemstones and on a stream of Voidlight leaving a sphere to flow toward a tuning fork.
She did all of this in a way that—best she could—hid what she was doing from her watching guard. Hunched over her workspace, she was relatively certain the Regal there wouldn’t be able to tell she’d made a breakthrough. The one last night hadn’t watched keenly; he’d been dozing through much of it.
Confident that her tone worked, she began training herself to hum the tone the plate made. It did sound the same, but somehow it wasn’t the same. As when measuring spren—which reacted to your thoughts about them—this tone needed Intent to be created. You had to know what you were trying to do

 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

She cannot keep the notes hidden, Raboniel knows every room Navani has access to and would found them.

That's precisely my point. That's why she didn't hide her notes, that's why she should have burnt them.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

She cannot burn them, or throw them behind boxes because immediately after the explosion happens guards grab her and haul her into the room.

There was a guard hauling her along - that's enough to search for an opportunity to throw her notes behind boxes, and did it when that guard was distracted. She didn't even think of that.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Once again, yes Navani was hiding the notebook:

Quote

With a sigh, Navani crossed the room and took her notebook - the one they'd named Rhythm of War - from a hidden spot under one of the shelves.

 

Please read that quote again, instead of pointlessly quoting it. She gives them to Raboniel in that quote. She hid nothing. 

3 hours ago, therunner said:

And Raboniel can't make it until she is reborn, and recreates equipment, which can take additional days.
Navani will be able to make more once she is freed.

How did Navani planned to free herself? She didn't. She had no idea what was going to happen on that day. If she didn't discover anti-light on that day, Raboniel wouldn't order Pursuer and Moash to destroy the last node and kill Kaladin, and the Tower would remain under occupation. Navani would make no anti-light in her prison cell.

Navani had no idea that she would accidentally free the Tower. She made no plans for that. She was Fortunate it worked out like that, but was a single step away from total disaster. It was so close for Odium to have Kaladin, the Tower and anti-light, with Navani being killed, that it’s crazy.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

And without Raboniel they would be unable to corrupt that node, so the plan would have saved Sibling for some time.
And Navani would not know that infusing it with Stormlight would not counteract Unmaking, does not mean she could not try.

Yes, a few more days. Nothing would change. And yes, Navani could try, nothing would change. Brilliant plan.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

I'm sorry, I must have forgotten the part were Navani isn't working under threat during enemy occupation, and has teams of dozens of specialist to help her do calculations and think about the problem from multiple angles.

Do you see the problem here? Not to mention she only figured out anti-Tone one day before Raboniel asked her to make anti-Light for the first time. The calculation that nuke coud ignite atmosphere were done in 1942, and idea of nuclear bomb came in 1934. So, yeah, I am willing to cut Navani some slack here, because she did not have 8 years to think about it.

I'm not because she had never thought about any unforeseeable consequences of her discovery. She just thought "I know anti-light can be made, I'm gonna make it" and she made it. It's a great discovery for sure, but she failed to account for reality.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

And Raboniel would not tell them until after being reborn, and then she would still keep protective hand over Navani.

Good thing the two Fused in leadership positions there are Leswhi (who won't torture her) and Pursuer (who is focused on Kaladin and won't care about Navani).

And neither did she have any way of hiding the discovery at all because it all happened so fast. It wasn't lack of trying, simply lack of opportunity.

Bad thing Odium overruled them all. And Raboniel could return in the old way, just like Pursuer did. There is also a way for Fused to communicate with souls on Braize - Raboniel could have sent them messages about discovery that way too.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

But she did not ' give it ' to Fused!
She discovered anti-Tone, and couple of hours later (during which she mostly slept) Raboniel asked her to try and make anti-Light using that process.

Not at all, leaving the plate with anti-tone like that in the open, working on it the next day, asking for more equipment drawing attention of Raboniel and giving her the notebook just like that definitely wasn't a gift for Fused. 

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Do you see any arti-fabrians assess risks or predict consequences? I mean, the levitation glove was originally quite horribly designed and it was Navani suggestion that made it practical.

Yes we do, even Navani used to do that when she was worried in WoR that attractor Fabrial will drain their blood. Back then she was able to think about unforeseeable consequences under the pressure of battlefield conditions.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

She discovered something no one in ~7000 years did, that is monumental scientific success.

Yes it is, I'm not denying this.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

You cannot bully spren into bond.
And you cannot swear Oaths unless you truly understand them.

I said "almost".

And Navani swore 1 ideal, Dalinar 2, Dalinar was clearly more worthy than Navani, because Stormfather accepted those words.

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I'm not talking about those actions. Yes, she clearly mistrusted Raboniel and tried to work against her. I'm talking about the time when Raboniel said she wanted to kill Odium and Navani blindly believed that.

Raboniel does not say she wants to kill Odium when first proposing anti-Light (ch 76), she mentions that Honor was killed and engages in speculation on how it could have happened.
Navani on her own then extrapolates that Odium could perhaps be killed in that way, which motivates her research. Nowhere does she trust that Raboniel wants to kill Odium.

The mistake she makes is thinking that they could make enough anti-Light to hurt Odium, which Raboniel points out, and not in believing that Raboniel wants to kill Odium.

Though it is possible that perhaps they could make enough to harm the Vessel at least, seeing what Nightblood did. Theoretically, it could kill the Shard too, but they would have to somehow convert gigantic amount of Investiture directly in SR.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

"the one they'd named Rhythm of War" - My point was that Raboniel knew about the notebook, she knew it's in the room and she was involved in some way with it (don't remember now clearly but she calls the notebook "theirs" on multiple occasions). Navani was unable to completely hid the notebook from Raboniel, because she knew it was there. My problem is that she gave it to Raboniel, she didn't try to destroy it, conseal the knowledge of anti-light.

She knew there is a notebook, and she did not have chance to destroy the notebook.

Rhythm of War as whole was shared yes, but clearly the last notes on anti-Tone and speculation on anti-Light were not part of it, because Navani was intentionally hiding it, since, you know, the notes are described as hidden.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

That doesn't matter. She was able to madly jump into work to discover anti-light without thinking about any of those things, she should have thought first that if Raboniel claims that a god can be killed by it, then spren who are "tiny gods" or "pieces of gods" can be killed as well. Just thinking about the possibilities anti-light brings would lead her to this revelation. She should have thought about consequences of her great discovery, and consequences about letting Fused know about it.

Of course it matters!
You say she should have thought more about, but she already had a lot of other things on her plate, that are a bit more important.
Not to mention she did not even start direct research into anti-Light, she was focused on anti-Tones, and it is 'luck' that the first approach she proposed actually worked.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

You claimed that Navani knew Fused can be killed by anti-light before she discovered it, I proved you wrong:

And I acknowledged I was wrong.

Question, how can you simultaneously blame her for not realizing that anti-Light can kill spren, but at the same time acknowledge she did not even make connection to killing Fused.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Because Odium is the commander, because Raboniel will return in a few days, and there are hundreds of other Fused ready to step in and assume control.

Ehm, Raboniel is also commander. Saying Odium is commander is like saying 'Dalinar is commander' in reply to the fact that killing Mink would be useful.

Raboniel was the one that pushed for operation to take Tower, it was her plan. She was the primary commander on the ground.
And sure, Odium could send someone, but that someone cannot corrupt Sibling, which is the entire point of killing Raboniel.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Because Fused know of anti-light.

No, Raboniel does, and cannot share that knowledge for several days.
In the meantime, the only one who knows about anti-light is Navani.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

No because Raboniel read her entire process, saw the plate, how it works and helped to make anti-light. It would take them at most a few days to replicate that, and Raboniel had dozens or more scientists to help.

I doubt that Raboniel remembers exactly the process.

And again, it was a gamble to protect Sibling and Tower.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

The Coalition would have no idea about anti-light, because Navani was the only one who knew and was trapped in the Tower.

Yeah, and Navani was working towards liberating the Tower.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Sibling was barely present anymore and retreated. They would say anything about Navani as they didn't trust her anymore. Navani was alone.

Sibling would not have to talk to Navani at all, just to Kaladin or Dabbid. After removing Raboniel, others can take initiative.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Did you really misunderstand me here? After she discovered the tone, before Raboniel visited her. The very first thing Navani should have done was to burn her notes after she created the plate.

No I did not.

You were saying that Navani should destroy the notes after discovering anti-Light. I am saying that Navani at that point had no idea if the anti-Tone would work to create anti-Light. So of course she would not destroy the notes yet.

Discovery of anti-Tone is not the same thing as discovery of anti-Light.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's enough to prevent her from doing anything at all, which is my point.

No its not, she can still continue to do research, just only theoretical like she was for multiple days.
She cannot take notes though, so she would be slowed down somewhat.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

She didn't but you claimed they had no reasons to kill her. I proved you wrong:

Yes you did I know.
But the problem is that we are discussing Navani's actions and behavior, so the fact they had reason to kill her is beside the point if she does not know that fact, which she does not.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

There are a lot of things Navani managed to do after the discovery of anti-tone (I specify it for you, I used anti-light to talk about both tone and light), she even washed - that's plenty of time to BURN HER NOTES! RoW ch 97 (please use ch, not pages):

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's precisely my point. That's why she didn't hide her notes, that's why she should have burnt them.

She has no reason to burn the notes yet!

Anti-Tone discovery is not the same as anti-Light so using it interchangeably is a poor form at best.

She did not discover anti-Light, she had theories only at the moment. And since she did not know it would kill Fused or Spren yet, she had zero reason to.
She spent days focused just on making anti-Tone and researching Tones, she was only starting to focus on anti-Light itself. Even on that day she was focusing on learning to create the Tone without the plate, not on making anti-Light. That happened only after Raboniel forced her to.

The fact that her first idea on how to make it worked out is both great luck and horrible luck.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

There was a guard hauling her along - that's enough to search for an opportunity to throw her notes behind boxes, and did it when that guard was distracted. She didn't even think of that.

No its not, don't be disingenuous.

You expect guard to not pay attention to her? You keep claiming how she is prime suspect and they would treat her with suspicion, but at the same time the guard is not paying enough attention to notice her hiding the notes?

The guard was not distracted at any point after the explosion, the first thing they do is grab Navani and drag her in the room.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Please read that quote again, instead of pointlessly quoting it. She gives them to Raboniel in that quote. She hid nothing.

I am sorry, did you miss the part about notes being hidden?
If the notes are hidden, she had to have hidden them. It is not that difficult. If she hid nothing as you say, why are notes hidden? Who hid them if not Navani?

She gives them to her because she knows they would be found during in-depth search, so she would only delay the inevitable.

Perhaps you should read the quote again.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

How did Navani planned to free herself? She didn't. She had no idea what was going to happen on that day. If she didn't discover anti-light on that day, Raboniel wouldn't order Pursuer and Moash to destroy the last node and kill Kaladin, and the Tower would remain under occupation. Navani would make no anti-light in her prison cell.

Yeah, she improvised on that day, and did not know she would make anti-Light that day. So why do you keep blaming her for not hiding the discovery?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Navani had no idea that she would accidentally free the Tower. She made no plans for that. She was Fortunate it worked out like that, but was a single step away from total disaster. It was so close for Odium to have Kaladin, the Tower and anti-light, with Navani being killed, that it’s crazy.

Navani did not 'accidentally' free the Tower, it was her goal the entire time.
She cooperated with Raboniel to get access to equipment and information, which she did get and was crucial for Kaladin. She cooperated on research into Light to hopefully learn how to purge Sibling of Voidlight, which she did learn and did after bonding Sibling. She was doing everything she could in her position to work towards freeing the Tower, and she succeeded.

Yeah, the end was kinda lucky, but so was Kaladin swearing 4th Oath at basically last few seconds, which was almost literal divine intervention.
At least what Navani did with Sibling was the direct results of actions she took until that point.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, a few more days. Nothing would change. And yes, Navani could try, nothing would change. Brilliant plan.

You don't know nothing would change.
What Navani knows, is that unless Raboniel is removed it is entirely possible they lose on that very day, because of the nodes. Every day Raboniel is there is a risk, and every day she is not is another day Tower is safe.

What would you do? Wait until Raboniel corrupts the Tower? Is that your suggestion?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I'm not because she had never thought about any unforeseeable consequences of her discovery. She just thought "I know anti-light can be made, I'm gonna make it" and she made it. It's a great discovery for sure, but she failed to account for reality.

No she did not think that, don't make stuff up.
Re-read the passage where Raboniel has her make anti-Light for the first time.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Bad thing Odium overruled them all. And Raboniel could return in the old way, just like Pursuer did. There is also a way for Fused to communicate with souls on Braize - Raboniel could have sent them messages about discovery that way too.

And Navani does not know that Odium would overrule them in that specific way, so why are you criticizing her for that? Is she supposed to just know what the enemy is planning, and the rivalry within the Fused?

Why would they return her the old way, when they have no idea on what she knows?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not at all, leaving the plate with anti-tone like that in the open, working on it the next day, asking for more equipment drawing attention of Raboniel and giving her the notebook just like that definitely wasn't a gift for Fused.

Good thing that:

• She did not work on it longer than necessary, and was instead learning to hum the tone.
• She did not leave the plate in the open, she hid it under several different ones.
• It was not the request for equipment that drew Raboniel's attention, it was primarily the fact that guards outside felt the effects of anti-Tone, something Navani had no way of predicting since to her the sounds are exactly the same (since they actually are the same on physical level).Why do you think she left her alone for days and came basically at first opportunity after Navani created anti-Tone?
• Gives her the notebook only after realizing that Raboniel will find it anyway. Notebook which at that point contains primarily information on anti-Tones, not anti-Light.

So exactly as you say it was not gift for Fused. Glad you see it that way.

But seriously, at least criticize her for things that actually happen in the book.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes we do, even Navani used to do that when she was worried in WoR that attractor Fabrial will drain their blood. Back then she was able to think about unforeseeable consequences under the pressure of battlefield conditions.

No, that was not something she came up with on the spot, they theorized that earlier.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes it is, I'm not denying this.

You were denying it:

Quote

She is scholar, probably among the best in Cosmere. She understands a lot about her work, but not all because she is not perfect (and she was working under non-ideal conditions).

On 29/08/2023 at 2:01 PM, alder24 said:

Up until this point she didn't do any serious scientific work on her own, she always had a team of people to which she gave an idea and they worked on all problems with that. She didn't know how to do a project like that, and how to assess risk and predict consequences. She had failed because of lack of knowledge and experience with scientific work. She clearly learnt from her mistakes by the end, that’s good, that's character development. For that she deserved credits. But she fully deserves condemnation for giving up the secret of anti-light directly into Fused hands. She failed.

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

And Navani swore 1 ideal, Dalinar 2, Dalinar was clearly more worthy than Navani, because Stormfather accepted those words.

Different Spren have different standards, and Sibling is clearly quite fearful of bonding anyone.

Sibling accepted her words, so Navani is worthy then. So I don't know why you say she is not, considering the above quote suggests that 'worthiness' is simply spren accepting words.

To summarize:

• Navani does not believe that Raboniel wants to kill Odium, because Raboniel never says that. So that criticism is invalid. She is wrong in thinking they could create enough anti-Light to kill Odium, however she lacks the knowledge to realize that (and has no way of having or obtaining that knowledge). This criticism is not valid, because it rests on something that never happened.
• Navani does try to hide the notes on anti-Tones and is intentionally hiding her work from guards, including hiding the plate that produces anti-Tone among several others that are useless. Criticizing her for not doing these things when she does them, is rendering that argument invalid.
• Navani has only several hours between making anti-Tone for the first time, and trying unproven experimental method to try and create anti-Light. She succeeded for good or ill, however to criticize her for not destroying notes on something that is not itself dangerous (anti-Tones) is disingenuous. She did not even know that anti-Tone has unpleasant effect on Fused/Voidspren, so she has no reason to think that anti-Tone alone is dangerous in any way. Once she learns any of that, it's too late.
• She spends vast majority of her time during occupation working towards goal of freeing the Tower, and her cooperation with Raboniel is part of those efforts (to obtain knowledge to reverse Siblings corruption). She succeeded in that, and without those efforts Tower would have fallen to Odium and Sibling would be Unmade.

So yeah, she did not achieve perfect victory, but she stopped Odium from winning the war (because that is what would have happened if they took the Tower).
The only thing that marres the victory is the fact that Odium's forces obtained knowledge on anti-Light. However, even if that did not happen, once Coalition would start using it to kill Fused permanently, Odium's forces would figure it out. So at worst she just hastened the inevitable.

Edited August 30, 2023 by therunner

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

There is a lot going an with Navani in RoW. Not least of which is the constant threat to the lives of her people (literally right down the hall) as well as the Sibling's approaching death. So, torturous conditions to begin with. On top of that, add decades of trauma from Gavilar..who verbally beat her down into believing that she is really kind of stupid and definitely not worthy of being a "real scholar." Navani is a genius. She may have one of the keenest minds in all of the Cosmere, and yet she'd been made to feel worthless for a very, very long time.

I don't know if anyone on this thread has dealt with that kind of trauma personally, or even tangentially through someone you care about sharing what it's like, but calling Navani the stupidest character in SA as if her life is a vacuum and none of what she has, and is experiencing, are relevant is deeply offensive. It disregards the realities of regular trauma, not to mention the trauma of war. On top of all of that, her opponent was a femalen who is over 7,000 years old and also happens to be a genius. I don't think anyone on this thread could take what Navani did and come out on top. 

As far as not destroying the notebook..it's a literary device. The enemy was going to find anti-light eventually and Sanderson blended Navani into that plot. Personally I would rather her character not be subjected to psychological torture for weeks on end, but it's a book about war, so it is what it is.

Navani most certainly made mistakes, no question, but to come out swinging that she's stupid and should have done better while simultaneously ignoring her life and lived experience is juvenile at best, and cruel at worst.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Navani is a genius. She may have one of the keenest minds in all of the Cosmere,

I know it is a bit of a tangent, but I would sure love a chapter of Navani and a certain Arcanum author talking and comparing notes. . . 

White Sand Spoilers:

Spoiler

Obviously Khriss from Taldain - also seen on Scadrial and Silverlight Scholar extraordinare.

Or - take it up a notch and include Zahel in this hypothetical convesation. Interesting and fun!

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I know it is a bit of a tangent, but I would sure love a chapter of Navani and talking and a certain Arcanum author and comparing notes. . . 

White Sand Spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Obviously Khriss from Taldain - also seen on Scadrial and Silverlight Scholar extraordinare.

Or - take it up a notch and include Zahel in this hypothetical convesation. Interesting and fun!

 

I seriously hope there are several such discussions in the years ahead. 

[Config2]

2 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

There is a lot going an with Navani in RoW. Not least of which is the constant threat to the lives of her people (literally right down the hall) as well as the Sibling's approaching death. So, torturous conditions to begin with. On top of that, add decades of trauma from Gavilar..who verbally beat her down into believing that she is really kind of stupid and definitely not worthy of being a "real scholar." Navani is a genius. She may have one of the keenest minds in all of the Cosmere, and yet she'd been made to feel worthless for a very, very long time.

I don't know if anyone on this thread has dealt with that kind of trauma personally, or even tangentially through someone you care about sharing what it's like, but calling Navani the stupidest character in SA as if her life is a vacuum and none of what she has, and is experiencing, are relevant is deeply offensive. It disregards the realities of regular trauma, not to mention the trauma of war. On top of all of that, her opponent was a femalen who is over 7,000 years old and also happens to be a genius. I don't think anyone on this thread could take what Navani did and come out on top. 

As far as not destroying the notebook..it's a literary device. The enemy was going to find anti-light eventually and Sanderson blended Navani into that plot. Personally I would rather her character not be subjected to psychological torture for weeks on end, but it's a book about war, so it is what it is.

Navani most certainly made mistakes, no question, but to come out swinging that she's stupid and should have done better while simultaneously ignoring her life and lived experience is juvenile at best, and cruel at worst.

Thanks for saying this. 

I think people are underestimating the literary device thing a lot. ROW is very, very long. Just keeping it simple in terms of how that information was quantified from a storytelling perspective is a good call. I think Sanderson could have done more to explain that Navani was careful (something more akin to what Shai does in Emperor's Soul), but again, ROW is really long and Sanderson has stated repeatedly that he was really uncomfortable writing so much science into the book.

I also think people misunderstand how fevered creation works. You don't operate rationally. I've done scientific work, and re-examined it a year later to find obvious conclusions that didn't even cross my mind in the first pass. It's not stupidity, it's pre-occupation.

[alder24]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

To summarize:

• Navani does not believe that Raboniel wants to kill Odium, because Raboniel never says that. So that criticism is invalid. She is wrong in thinking they could create enough anti-Light to kill Odium, however she lacks the knowledge to realize that (and has no way of having or obtaining that knowledge). This criticism is not valid, because it rests on something that never happened.
• Navani does try to hide the notes on anti-Tones and is intentionally hiding her work from guards, including hiding the plate that produces anti-Tone among several others that are useless. Criticizing her for not doing these things when she does them, is rendering that argument invalid.
• Navani has only several hours between making anti-Tone for the first time, and trying unproven experimental method to try and create anti-Light. She succeeded for good or ill, however to criticize her for not destroying notes on something that is not itself dangerous (anti-Tones) is disingenuous. She did not even know that anti-Tone has unpleasant effect on Fused/Voidspren, so she has no reason to think that anti-Tone alone is dangerous in any way. Once she learns any of that, it's too late.
• She spends vast majority of her time during occupation working towards goal of freeing the Tower, and her cooperation with Raboniel is part of those efforts (to obtain knowledge to reverse Siblings corruption). She succeeded in that, and without those efforts Tower would have fallen to Odium and Sibling would be Unmade.

So yeah, she did not achieve perfect victory, but she stopped Odium from winning the war (because that is what would have happened if they took the Tower).
The only thing that marres the victory is the fact that Odium's forces obtained knowledge on anti-Light. However, even if that did not happen, once Coalition would start using it to kill Fused permanently, Odium's forces would figure it out. So at worst she just hastened the inevitable.

It's time to end this. This is spiraling into a heated storm of misunderstanding, pointless comments and repetition.

• Most of my criticism for Navani starts after the discovery of Warlight. Up until this point Navani was perfectly dealing with the invasion and Raboniel. I have nothing bad to say about this. 
• Navani was told by Raboniel that she wanted anti-light because it can kill/harm or give them power over Odium - RoW ch 76. Raboniel later admitted to lying to her in RoW 97:

  Quote

  “Honor was killed using some process we do not yet understand. I assume, from things I have been told, that some opposite was used to tear his power apart. I thought if I could discover this opposite Light, then we would have power over the gods themselves. Would that not be the power to end a war?”

  [...]

  “This is why,” Navani said, kneeling beside the two. “Your god hinted that anti-Voidlight was possible, and you suspected what it would do. You captured the tower, you imprisoned and pushed me, and possibly delayed the corruption of the Sibling. Because you hoped to find this anti-Voidlight. Not because you wanted a weapon against Odium. Because you wanted to show a mercy to your daughter.”
  “We could never create enough of this anti-Light to threaten Odium,” Raboniel whispered. “That was another lie, Navani. I’m sorry. But you took my dream and you fulfilled it."

• Navani should have either dismissed that possibility, as Raboniel lied to her countless times already, or thought of other reasons why Raboniel wanted anti-light so badly - then she would have realized the importance of this discovery and that this could kill spren. She failed here which is why she gave Fused this knowledge later. 

• Navani should have done everything possible to prevent the knowledge of anti-tone and anti-light from falling into Raboniel's hands. Everything, that includes not trying to discover it under occupation and constant supervision. Instead of fervorously jumping into research without thinking, she should have thought a lot about the consequences of this discovery, and ways to prevent it from falling into Fused hands. Burn notes instead of washing herself, make just one single cut on anti-Odium tone plate which would ruin it, but still allow her to easily and quickly recreate it if needed. HIde her notes and let Fused search the room, wasting hours. She didn't do that. She didn't hide her notes when Raboniel requested them, but immediately gave them to her. She did nothing to prevent this discovery from falling into Fused hands because she was unaware of the danger it posed, because she didn't think about consequences of her actions - she was madly focused only on a way to make an anti-Odium tone. RoW ch 97:

  Quote

  Navani entered a feverish kind of study—a frantic near madness—as the work consumed her. Before, she had organized. Now she merely fed the beast. She barely slept.
  The answer was here. The answer meant something. She couldn’t explain why, but she needed this secret. Food became a distraction.
  Time stopped mattering. She put her clocks away so they wouldn’t remind her of human constructs like minutes and hours. She was searching for something deeper. More important.

• She made a great and brilliant scientific discovery. But she failed to prevent this knowledge from falling into Fused hands, which is a huge oversight. She failed to properly assess risks and failed to realize who big this discovery was, which is another huge oversight. It was partially because she wasn't experienced in working alone on a big project like that, she lacked proper Cosmere knowledge, she was played by Raboniel, and was blindly focused on discovering the secret, because she knew anti-light existed. And also partially because she wanted to prove herself as a scholar, RoW ch 84:

  Quote

  Navani found herself in a curious situation. Forbidden to take part in the administration of the tower, forbidden direct contact with her scholars, she had only her research to occupy her. In a way, she had been given the gift she’d always wished for: a chance to truly see if she could become a scholar.

• Her plan to kill Raboniel was just bad. It relied on giving them the knowledge of anti-tones and anti-lights, which is the biggest flaw, and if successful it would only delay Sibling's unmaking (at best), while Navani would be stuck without any way to follow it or make and use anti-Voidlight.

• If Navani were able to keep the knowledge of anti-light secret, it would  have given the Coalition immense advantage, and a real means to end the war and force Odium into the duel. It would take Fused months or years to recreate that process as they would have no idea how Navani managed to do that. Navani failed here.

 

That's all from me. You all are free to disagree, that's fine, you can see those events differently.

[Frustration he/him]

12 hours ago, therunner said:

She did not bypass anything. She swore an Oath and it was accepted.

Because Brandon put his hand on the scales to get the outcome he wanted.

The Sibling outright says she isn't worthy then immediately changes it's mind because... Tones or something.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

 Not true, Raboniel has more knowledge than Navani does, 

That makes it worse, not better

12 hours ago, therunner said:

Not true, Raboniel has more knowledge than Navani does, so it makes sense for Navani to try and mine her for that information (and she gets information on making of original Fabrials, Tones of Roshar, mixing of Light, Light reacting to Tones and Rhythms), while stonewalling her own side (which she does).

No she doesn't.

The first thing she does with Warlight and anti-light is to immediately hand it to Raboniel.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

And you assume that Raboniel would take no for an answer, which is stupid I think.

She outright said that Navani could work in the laundry instead.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

The deal was about Navani working for Raboniel on fabrial design. She accepted because she notes that Raboniel would learn their functioning anyway, simply by interogatting her scholars and experimenting with existing pieces (which is true). In that scenario Raboniel would get what she wants (from the deal as stated) anyway, and Navani would have nothing.

So obviously Raboniel wasn't interested in fabrials(which she wasn't). And wanted something else instead that she couldn't get without Navani(which she couldn't).

12 hours ago, therunner said:

Later on, she accepts research into Lights because that is the only way she can learn anything that could help save Tower. And notably it does.

No it's not.

There are two much easier and more reliable methods.

1. Break the Garnets, which will end the suppression.

2. Get Chiri Chiri from Theylanah, who can drain the voidlight.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

Had she refused, she would not have knowledge of Rhythms or their merging, would not be in position to bond Sibling, and could not purge Tower and get it fully functional. As a result, even if Kaladin swore 4th Ideal, Tower would be impossible to hold, because Kaladin is still just one person and has to sleep. Unmade Sibling could simply close him off in some room and have him starve.

Kaladin could break the Garnets, freeing the other Radiants. Not to mention you can't trap someone with a Shardblade in a stone room.

Then he can get Chiri Chiri and drain any excess Voidlight if that's still an issue.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

And regarding anti-Light, I will add that death of Fused hurts Odium's forces more than death of Spren hurts Coalition, because no more Fused are being created, but spren are procreating.

So over time, anti-Light is an advantage for Coalition, even when both sides have the knowledge.

That is objectively not true anti-light is ten thousand times more helpful to Odium than the coalition.

In order to kill fused you need Voidlight and Raysium. Two things which only Odium has.

To kill spren you need Raysium and Stormlight, which Odium has relatively easy access to.

 

Not to mention that unlike spren Fused become more insane as they are killed. Or that Nightblood can permanently kill Fused but any Fused that tried to use it would die. Or the fact that there are more Fused than Spren.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Frustration

[Aldehyde1]

On 8/30/2023 at 8:52 AM, JohnnyKaizen said:

There is a lot going an with Navani in RoW. Not least of which is the constant threat to the lives of her people (literally right down the hall) as well as the Sibling's approaching death. So, torturous conditions to begin with. On top of that, add decades of trauma from Gavilar..who verbally beat her down into believing that she is really kind of stupid and definitely not worthy of being a "real scholar." Navani is a genius. She may have one of the keenest minds in all of the Cosmere, and yet she'd been made to feel worthless for a very, very long time.

I don't know if anyone on this thread has dealt with that kind of trauma personally, or even tangentially through someone you care about sharing what it's like, but calling Navani the stupidest character in SA as if her life is a vacuum and none of what she has, and is experiencing, are relevant is deeply offensive. It disregards the realities of regular trauma, not to mention the trauma of war. On top of all of that, her opponent was a femalen who is over 7,000 years old and also happens to be a genius. I don't think anyone on this thread could take what Navani did and come out on top. 

As far as not destroying the notebook..it's a literary device. The enemy was going to find anti-light eventually and Sanderson blended Navani into that plot. Personally I would rather her character not be subjected to psychological torture for weeks on end, but it's a book about war, so it is what it is.

Navani most certainly made mistakes, no question, but to come out swinging that she's stupid and should have done better while simultaneously ignoring her life and lived experience is juvenile at best, and cruel at worst.

Her people's lives aren't under imminent threat. Raboniel isn't harming any humans in the Tower at the moment. Furthermore, she thinks Navani has already answered her question after the discovery of Warlight. After that, she tells Navani that she has earned her respect and can do whatever she wants, at least until Raboniel finishes killing the tower. It seems like a lot of the discussion since I posted this has centered around the notebook and what happens once it's discovered. While that does annoy me, my main problem is even before that, Navani does not stop to think for even a second about the obvious consequences of her actions. After the discovery of Warlight, Raboniel blatantly tells her that she omitted her true goals to mislead Navani, is going to break her promise to leave the Tower and continue working to destroy Navani's allies, and that Navani should not be so trusting (people keep calling Raboniel a genius, despite her doing her best to demonstrate to Navani that she absolutely should not be trusted). So at this point, Navani knows that:

a) Raboniel cannot be trusted and will happily omit the true implications of what she asked Navani to achieve her true goals.

b ) She knows that the most likely outcome by far is that the Sibling is unmade and the Tower falls, cutting her off from her allies permanently.

c) Her actions are being monitored. At best, her findings have no way of reaching her allies.

d) I can forgive her for not figuring out the implications of anti-Voidlight, but she does know it's a powerful weapon Raboniel wants. See point a.

Based on these 4 pieces of information, the blindingly obvious conclusion is that if you undertake research into this mysterious weapon, it will be discovered by an enemy that will abuse the weapon in some way. Sure enough, that's exactly what happens and Navani is somehow surprised at every step. I find it highly reductive to handwave away all of this as the result of "trauma" because there are many other characters in SA with  tragic pasts who are manipulated in ways that are actually plausible (not to mention that of all the main characters except Adolin, she probably has the best life. She had a normal childhood, a good marriage initially which turned into a condescending one, and now has a loving family again that actively supports her scholarly ambitions anyway). Navani never stopped over the weeks she was working and thought, "Hmm, I have a loving family that supports me now but is in danger. Should I keep working on a dangerous weapon that will probably fall into the hands of enemy who has shown she will happily lie to and exploit me?" I think what you're saying is how it should have been written. If Raboniel had actually threatened people close to Navani, or perhaps pretended to go along with Navani so Navani could plausibly think Raboniel was trustworthy, then I would understand the storyline.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Aldehyde1

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

People are hyper focused on Navani being "stupid" or "naive" and/or "not worthy" as if her story isn't a near parallel to Dalinar's in many broad strokes? 

Sadeas : Dalinar :: Raboniel: Navani

• Sadeas and Raboniel are both dark mirrors of Dalinar and Navani respectively.
• Both Sadeas and Raboniel can see this, know this, and USE this to manipulate their counterpart into doing very stupid things (looked at with reader's knowledge and distance to situations)
• Not only manipulate them into doing "stupid things", but doing them repeatedly and being burned by the other repeatedly nearly catastrophically

Also - the Stormfather did NOT want to bond Dalinar at the end of WoR either. Dalinar essentially bullied/forced the bond as much or more than Navani did at the end of RoW with the Sibling.

If anyone is going to crap all over Navani, please be sure to spread it to Dalinar as well because they are literary parallels in these books, and one does NOT deserve the hate if the other isn't getting it as well

[MistbornMathematician]

I would like to throw my hat into the ring of this (rather contentious) issue, and claim that much of the questions posed throughout this debate can be answered, in my opinion, by the notion that Navani isn't actually that smart. 

Throughout the earlier books, she fills the role of a rich patron, often making fairly surface-level observations and even (in some cases, especially in TWoK) coming up with ideas she's somewhat surprised to see have already been thought up by other people. As time progresses, she inserts herself more and more into the science she oversees, double-checking calculations and acting as a (highly successful) manager. This research she does in RoW is, in fact, the first true scientific work she has personally done herself, and even then, much of the difficult part was done before her. Her own work was completed with the knowledge (or, at least, the strong opinion) that what she was striving for was possible at all. This is a significant difference. She did not discover anti-light -- she just independently found a method of creating it. Similar criticism can be levied at modern institutions for placing more emphasis on being the first person to prominently find something experimentally rather than being the first person to demonstrate theoretical existence, but that's a bit of a tangent. It is my belief that, knowing what Navani knew, nearly anyone in her employ could have done what she did scientifically. Where Navani's strengths came in (as opposed to what other people could have done in her situation) was when she escaped, using her resourcefulness and determination to succeed where many others would have given up or simply been too traumatized to try.

Narratively, looking at her history, when Gavilar breaks her down and compares her to anti-light, calling her nothing more than someone who liked science because it was cool, I would say he was largely correct at that point. I also believe that this is, as is (kind of) directly stated by her internal monologue, the reason she began investing herself more and more into scientific endeavors and taking on more and more actual responsibility. I also believe that she is likely quite jealous of Jasnah, who is the brilliant world-renowned woman of science that Navani wishes she was. 

Navani is a gifted manager, an intelligent woman several steps away from brilliance, who wishes nothing more than to be the genius scientist that her daughter is. When given a chance, the first real chance in her life, to work on the cutting-edge of arcane research, all while she is being praised and complemented for her intelligence as she continues this research, it is not only realistic that she would be somewhat naive and make rather foolish decisions, but it would be (in my opinion) unrealistic should she not have acted that way.

Why does she convince the Sibling to bond with her? Likely because she admires Dalinar, is jealous of Jasnah, and wants to be considered "worthy", both as a scientist and in the general sense. Becoming a Bondsmith would make her more similar to Dalinar, superior (in terms of radiant order) to Jasnah, and objectively "worthy" from the perspective of everyone around her. Plus, honestly, it was the only real option at the time. The Stormfather could have refused, the Sibling really couldn't have.

If there is one condemnation Navani deserves from all of this, it is only that she appears to believe that her bond wasn't actually one born from mutual desperation, and is indeed an honor she entirely deserves. The honorable thing to do would have been to offer to safely break their bond after the tower was restored, but (as far as I remember) she doesn't suggest this. That is the one and only thing that she did that I believe could really be considered truly wrong, but even so, it makes a lot of sense when considering her aforementioned relationships to Dalinar, Jasnah, and her own sense of self-worth.

2 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

People are hyper focused on Navani being "stupid" or "naive" and/or "not worthy" as if her story isn't a near parallel to Dalinar's in many broad strokes? 

<...>

If anyone is going to crap all over Navani, please be sure to spread it to Dalinar as well because they are literary parallels in these books, and one does NOT deserve the hate if the other isn't getting it as well

This seems a bit reductionist to me, though. They do have parallels, yes, but these parallels do not necessarily imply that they deserve the same levels of judgement for their mistakes or should be seen to have the same level of "worthiness". 

3 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Also - the Stormfather did NOT want to bond Dalinar at the end of WoR either. Dalinar essentially bullied/forced the bond as much or more than Navani did at the end of RoW with the Sibling.

This, however, I completely disagree with. The Stormfather could have refused without ensuring his own destruction. The Sibling could not have. The ability to say "no" without severe consequences is an extremely important one. Moreover, Dalinar was healing with stormlight before forcing the bond in full, and he also was experiencing significant unease with touching a shardblade. This implies that the bonding process was already starting at this point. Navani, however, did not have any of that. 

A better comparison would be Dalinar pushing the Stormfather to complete a half-built bond before the Stormfather was entirely comfortable with that, and Navani saying "bond me or we both die, also no take-backsies" when there was nothing at all between them before. 

[therunner he/him]

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

 

• Most of my criticism for Navani starts after the discovery of Warlight. Up until this point Navani was perfectly dealing with the invasion and Raboniel. I have nothing bad to say about this.

Ok.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

Navani was told by Raboniel that she wanted anti-light because it can kill/harm or give them power over Odium - RoW ch 76.

No. This is factually not true. If it is, please quote it.
Raboniel said that the anti-Light could provide power over gods, which also means over Cultivation, remnants of Honor (since she knows that it is still somewhat active through Dalinar).
She never says that she wants power over Odium specifically.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

• Raboniel later admitted to lying to her in RoW 97:

The lie was about making enough light, not about the fact that anti-Light can be dangerous, nor about misleading Navani about the goal.
As your own quote says.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

Navani should have either dismissed that possibility, as Raboniel lied to her countless times already, or thought of other reasons why Raboniel wanted anti-light so badly - then she would have realized the importance of this discovery and that this could kill spren. She failed here which is why she gave Fused this knowledge later. 

Navani's entire plan is to discover it in secret, the reason it failed is that anti-Tone sounds different to Fused than to humans, something she could not know.
Navani saw that she actually has advantage over Raboniel, since she possibly has evidence anti-Light actually can exist, and wanted to exploit that advantage.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

Navani should have done everything possible to prevent the knowledge of anti-tone and anti-light from falling into Raboniel's hands. Everything, that includes not trying to discover it under occupation and constant supervision. 

I can see the argument that she should have waited. Of course she does not know if there will be after, nor if she will even be succesful.
You seem to assume that Navani knows she will succeeded, when in-fact she still doubs herself at that point. She does not know she will be successful, so she can experiment freely.

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Instead of fervorously jumping into research without thinking, she should have thought a lot about the consequences of this discovery, and ways to prevent it from falling into Fused hands.

Like hiding her research notes (which she did), masking her research by pretending to do other things (which she did), or like hiding her actual research among failures (which she did)?
What else she should have done?

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

Burn notes instead of washing herself, make just one single cut on anti-Odium tone plate which would ruin it, but still allow her to easily and quickly recreate it if needed.

But what reason she has to burn notes? Seriously, it is just research on anti-Tones at that point, and some speculation, nothing else. So from her perspective it is something that might lead to anti-Light, and the only effect is that it pushes away Voidlight a bit.
That is not dangerous discovery at all.

Cutting the plate would do exactly nothing to it, it would be trivial to replicate even with the cut. If she could easily recreate it, so could anyone else, especially Fused since the plate makes the exact same physical Tone as the Pure Tone of Odium, it is the Intent when using the plate that renders it anti-Tone. There is no anti-Tone plate, only Tone plate and Intent when using it.
So the plate is just plate that makes Pure Tone of Odium, without Intent it is not dangerous, nor difficult to recreate.

Again, she does not know she will succeed.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

HIde her notes and let Fused search the room, wasting hours. She didn't do that. She didn't hide her notes when Raboniel requested them, but immediately gave them to her.

The notes were hidden! How can she hide notes from Raboniel, when they are already hidden, the last sentence makes zero sense.

And yeah, she could waste a few hours, and the end result would be the same, except Raboniel would trust her less. So, she did the right choice.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

She did nothing to prevent this discovery from falling into Fused hands because she was unaware of the danger it posed, because she didn't think about consequences of her actions

She did many things to prevent the discovery of her research, I literally listed them for you. Let me list it again

• She pretended to do other research at the time (thermal effect on Tones).
• She did not leave the plate with the Tone in the open, she hid it under several different ones.
• She was hiding the notes from Raboniel (of course as prisoner there are limits to that).

The primary reason she was found out was that anti-Tone sounds different to Fused, something she had no way of knowing. Without that, she would continue her research with Fused none the wiser.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

She made a great and brilliant scientific discovery. 

Yes.

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But she failed to prevent this knowledge from falling into Fused hands, which is a huge oversight.

Not oversight, failing. She was trying to keep it hidden, she failed, because of effects outside of her knowledge and control (anti-Tone effect on Fused).
Many characters in SA fail, like Dalinar with uniting, Kaladin with protecting people, etc.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

She failed to properly assess risks and failed to realize who big this discovery was, which is another huge oversight. It was partially because she wasn't experienced in working alone on a big project like that,

It has nothing to do with lack of experience, very few scientist, especially in pre 20th century era did anything like risk assessment.
A lot still don't.

Do you blame Einstein for not properly assessing risks and publishing theory that leads to atomic bomb?
Do you blame the people who did publish article on chain reaction that they did not consider the risk of setting fire to the atmosphere?

If not, then you don't have grounds to blame Navani because they did the same exact thing.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

she lacked proper Cosmere knowledge

Yes, she had no way of having it, no reason to criticize her for that. If anything, that is reason for less criticism since that is what science is researching something you don't have knowledge of.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

• she was played by Raboniel

As was Raboniel played by Navani, since Warlight discovery allowed Navani to purge the Tower.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

• and was blindly focused on discovering the secret, because she knew anti-light existed. And also partially because she wanted to prove herself as a scholar

If motivation is cause for critcism that is a bit ridiculous.
And its not like wanting to prove yourself is bad on its own.

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

Her plan to kill Raboniel was just bad. It relied on giving them the knowledge of anti-tones and anti-lights, which is the biggest flaw, and if successful it would only delay Sibling's unmaking (at best), while Navani would be stuck without any way to follow it or make and use anti-Voidlight

Her plan was improvised on the spot. She did not give them that knowledge purposefully, she just tried to leverage the situation to some advantage.

Slowing down unmaking is higher priority than continuing research into anti-Light won't you agree?

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

If Navani were able to keep the knowledge of anti-light secret, it would  have given the Coalition immense advantage, and a real means to end the war and force Odium into the duel. It would take Fused months or years to recreate that process as they would have no idea how Navani managed to do that.

Citation needed that it would take Fused months or years.

Fused could simply pay Ghostbloods to obtain the information, they have already initiated contact with them, and Fused can provide Mraize with items he is interested in.
And since Coalition is no longer friendly to Ghostbloods, it is actually in their interest to start contact with Fused.

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

Because Brandon put his hand on the scales to get the outcome he wanted.

That is criticism of writing, not Navani.

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The Sibling outright says she isn't worthy then immediately changes it's mind because... Tones or something.

You mean they change their mind after Navani starts singing Rhythm of the Tower? One that Sibling did not hear since Honor was killed? Loss of which crippled them?
That is quite a bit of reason to change their mind.

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That makes it worse, not better

Huh? Working with someone who knows more than you in hopes of stealing that knowledge makes it worse? How?

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No she doesn't.

Yes Raboniel does have more knowledge. She teaches Navani a lot. Try re-reading those chapters.

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

The first thing she does with Warlight and anti-light is to immediately hand it to Raboniel.

No, neither of these happen in the book. Try again.

What actually happens is that Navani first makes Warlight with Raboniel, she could not make it on her own.

Later she is forced into making anti-Light by Raboniel, she does not hand it over.

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She outright said that Navani could work in the laundry instead.

And you blindly trust Raboniel on that? Don't you criticize Navani for taking Raboniel at her word?
So which is it, Raboniel is trustworthy or not?

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So obviously Raboniel wasn't interested in fabrials(which she wasn't). And wanted something else instead that she couldn't get without Navani(which she couldn't).

Not true, Raboniel was partially interest in fabrials, even if it was not her main goal. She notes multiple times that modern fabrials are very impressive.

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No it's not.

Yes it is her motivation, Navani literally says so.

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There are two much easier and more reliable methods.

1. Break the Garnets, which will end the suppression.

2. Get Chiri Chiri from Theylanah, who can drain the voidlight.

Neither of which Navani can achieve, since

1. She cannot go into the pillar room, no human can. So she has no way of breaking the garnets.
2. She has no way of contacting outside of world, much less getting Chiri-Chiri.

So they are not easier methods, because they are outright impossible in Navani's position.

And if they break the garnets, they will guarantee that Tower will no longer have protection against Odium's forces.
It would be smart to try to break them once it is clear they cannot win, but to try earlier is stupid considering the risks and benefits.

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

Kaladin could break the Garnets, freeing the other Radiants. Not to mention you can't trap someone with a Shardblade in a stone room.

Then he can get Chiri Chiri and drain any excess Voidlight if that's still an issue.

How is Kaladin to get into the most guarded room in the entire Tower when he has next to no abilities?
He is nearly killed in most of his confrontations, and this would be far worse. And he cannot get Chiri Chiri, he has no idea where it is.

And yeah, stone cannot stop Shardblade. But godspren in physical form could, which is what Sibling is. Or they could Invest the stone.

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

That is objectively not true anti-light is ten thousand times more helpful to Odium than the coalition.

In order to kill fused you need Voidlight and Raysium. Two things which only Odium has.

To kill spren you need Raysium and Stormlight, which Odium has relatively easy access to.

You need Raysium if you don't have pressure differential.
If you do have, Investiture will flow naturally. Or you can have small device that will play Tone of Odium, forcing anti-Voidlight out of the gemstone.
There are ways, and they don't rely on extremely rare metal that Odium explicitly does not like to give out.

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Not to mention that unlike spren Fused become more insane as they are killed.

Dead Fused is better than insane Fused.
Raboniel was insane for a time and got better, so insanity is not guarantee that Fused is off the board for good.

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Or that Nightblood can permanently kill Fused but any Fused that tried to use it would die.

There is only one Nightblood and can be wielded only by Radiant and only for short time.
Anti-Light can be wielded by anyone, without any risk to them.

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Or the fact that there are more Fused than Spren.

Citation needed.

13 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said:

I would like to throw my hat into the ring of this (rather contentious) issue, and claim that much of the questions posed throughout this debate can be answered, in my opinion, by the notion that Navani isn't actually that smart.

Except of course for the fact that per the narrative Navani actually is that smart.
Her scientist go to her for advice when stuck. Her engineers go to her for ideas on how to improve desings.
So they clearly value her input, and think she is capable of insights they are not.

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Narratively, looking at her history, when Gavilar breaks her down and compares her to anti-light, calling her nothing more than someone who liked science because it was cool, I would say he was largely correct at that point.

Except of course that he is not correct on that point at all.
Hell, Gavilar is wrong on every single character description he makes in prologues!  And he is wrong in most of his assumptions too.

He is wrong about who sent Szeth and why.
He is wrong about Eshonai and her reason for being there, or that Listeners trust them.
He is wrong in his assessment of Dalinar.
He is wrong about Jasnah and her capabilities.
He is wrong about Navani (as stated above).
He completely misunderstands Oathpact, and reasoning behind Radiant Oaths.
He considers Heralds his peers and does not recongnize them when they stand in front of him even when they talk about Oathpact, binding of BAM!

If anyone is dumb its Gavilar. He is vain, over-ambitious man with delusions of grandeur, outright godcomplex, who thinks the worst of everyone around him, and uses that to think better of himself.

Edited August 31, 2023 by therunner