Renarin, son of thorns

[The Sibling she/her]

So, I just wanted to make a small complaint about something in RoW. I kind of hate that the title that Renarin is given by Sja-anat is "Son of Thorns". I dislike this because it's clearly referring to the fact that Renarin's father is Dalinar, the Blackthorn (unless I missed something) and I feel that it's silly to give Renarin a title that says nothing about him as a person and only talks about who his father his. Renarin is such a great and rich character but he's always being overshadowed by his family members, specifically Adolin and Dalinar. 

Sadeas calls him useless, Kaladin calls him clumsy, Shallan thought he was weird and was super mean that one time (Gag him if you have to), and Dalinar is pretty terrible father during his early life. Renarin has faced so much, and he deserves for people to see him as who he is and not just in relation to Dalinar. Even when he joins that meeting with scholars (if I'm remembering correctly) everyone thinks it's weird and feminine until Dalinar shows up, because it's weird if Renarin does it, but if the Blackthorn's there than it can't be feminine. 

So when I saw that his title from Sja-anat was Son of Thorns, I was a little disappointed. Why does Kaladin get Stormblessed but all Renarin gets is "Son of this pretty cool guy who's strong and important".

One explanation would be that the titles given by Sja-anat/corrupted spren are just based on who your parents were/your heritage. But that doesn't really work because Tumi (Rlain's spren) calls Rlain "The Bridger of Minds". So Rlain gets a name that really says something about who he is, but Renarin doesn't?

Anyways, just wanted to see what people thought about this. Maybe it's no big deal and I'm blowing it out of proportion, so feel free to tell me that or contradict/correct anything that I just said.

Edit : Also, I just looked in The Coppermind and it says that Renarin's name was misinterpreted by Dalinar and Evi probably meant it to mean "Re, born unto Dalinar". So even his own name is all about Dalinar.

Edited August 30, 2023 by The Sibling

[alder24]

Well to be fair Renarin didn't have any opportunity to earn his own title. He did nothing grand or meaningful yet. Others are also called by titles like that by other invested beings - Son of Honor, Son of Odium, Son of Tanavast etc. Sja-Anat could be following a similar naming convention.

30 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

Edit : Also, I just looked in The Coppermind and it says that Renarin's name was misinterpreted by Dalinar and Evi probably meant it to mean "Re, born unto Dalinar". So even his own name is all about Dalinar.

Can this be foreshadowing? The only thing I can think of now is that Dalinar will Ascend to Honor and Renarin's title Son of Thorns will be the same as Kaladin's Son of Tanavast - which is unique and has importance to it.

[Treamayne]

31 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

Edit : Also, I just looked in The Coppermind and it says that Renarin's name was misinterpreted by Dalinar and Evi probably meant it to mean "Re, born unto Dalinar". So even his own name is all about Dalinar.

That seems like a fan theory that made it into the coppermind with no supporting evidence. I can see how it was deduced from the passage, but there are no WoBs and nothing in the text to indicate that was Evi's intention. OB Ch 52:

Spoiler

And little Renarin has never even met his father.”

“Renarin?” Dalinar said, trying to work out the name. He hadn’t picked that. “Rekher … no, Re…”

“Re,” Evi said. “From my language. Nar, after his father. In, to be born unto.”

Stormfather, that was a butchering of the language. Dalinar fumbled, trying to work through it. Nar meant “like unto.”

“What does ‘Re’ mean in your language?” Dalinar asked, scratching his face.

“It has no meaning,” Evi said. “It is simply the name. It means our son’s name, or him.”

Dalinar groaned softly. So the child’s name was “Like one who was born unto himself.” Delightful.

“You didn’t answer,” Evi pointed out, “when I asked after a name via spanreed.”

How had Navani and Ialai allowed this travesty of a name? Storms … knowing those two, they’d probably encouraged it. 

 

31 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

So when I saw that his title from Sja-anat was Son of Thorns, I was a little disappointed. Why does Kaladin get Stormblessed but all Renarin gets is "Son of this pretty cool guy who's strong and important".

How do we know Sja-Anat is the one using that title? The only in-text instance so far is from Tumi, and he does not attibute the title to Sja-Anat. RoW Ch 111:

Spoiler

The room went dark.

Then it shone as crystals grew out from his feet like … like stained glass windows, covering the floor. They showed a figure rising in blue-glowing Shardplate, and a tower coming alight.

Keep fighting, a voice said in his head. Salvation will be, Rlain, listener. Bridger of Minds. I have been sent to you by my mother, at the request of Renarin, Son of Thorns. I have watched you and seen your worthiness.

Speak the Words, and do not despair.

Again, it makes a logical deduction, but that is not definitive proof that Sja Anat devised that title. There are also no WoBs on the title. 

[Firesong she/her]

Renarin is going to play a bigger role in SA5 and in the second half, especially SA7. So he will become more important in the plot as it progresses. It just isn't his time to really shine yet, as his most important roles are coming later. You have to remember that this is an ongoing series, not a finished one. Brandon has future plans for where these characters are going. 

Also, yeah, Renarin was given a title before he really did anything big to earn it yet. I bet that he will get a more personal title in the future. We also don't have full context on Son of Thorns yet. It could have far deeper meaning than you hypothesize. I actually interpreted it by the rough childhood he experienced, and maybe some connection to Cultivation, as he is bonded to a Mistspren (which seem to be pretty close to Cultivation), and Cultivation does talk about thorns a lot. 

And yeah, @Treamayne is right, Renarin meaning "son of Dalinar" (meaning is descriptive, not prescriptive, so it still would mean what Evi meant it to mean, even if the actual linguistics and etymology say otherwise. It just would have more than one meaning) is a fan-theory, it has evidence, but it still ultimately comes from theorizing off of why she put the Nar into the name. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Firesong

[The Sibling she/her]

5 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Again, it makes a logical deduction, but that is not definitive proof that Sja Anat devised that title. There are also no WoBs on the title. 

Yeah I know this. I guess that I sort of assume due to the similar nature of the titles and the fact that Sja-anat sent Tumi that the titles had similar origins, but it is definitely a good point. We don't know that Sja-anat came up with that title, it might just be what Tumi calls Rlain. 

5 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

That seems like a fan theory that made it into the coppermind with no supporting evidence. I can see how it was deduced from the passage, but there are no WoBs and nothing in the text to indicate that was Evi's intention.

 

I didn't actually check the text, I just noticed it in the coppermind. I hope that Renarin's name is foreshadowing something else or means something else. Also I would be happy if Renarin's name really was just gibberish and made no sense because that would be fine too.

4 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Also, yeah, Renarin was given a title before he really did anything big to earn it yet. I bet that he will get a more personal title in the future. We also don't have full context on Son of Thorns yet. It could have far deeper meaning than you hypothesize. 

I totally hope that he gets a better title later. and if it does have a deeper meaning, that would be great. On of the reasons I was hesitant to post about this was because I figured that the title just meant something more than what I had interpreted it as. So I hope this is true. 

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Well to be fair Renarin didn't have any opportunity to earn his own title. He did nothing grand or meaningful yet.

Fair enough. I don't think that there are any moments in Renarin's life that really jump out at me as so important that his title should be based around them, but I think that there's enough in his life to work with. He comforted Dalinar and supported his brother, fought the thunderclast with Hrdalm and found the drawers full of gemstones in Urithiru. He bonded a corrupted spren (was he the first to do that? I can't remember) and he healed lots of people. Maybe none of these are super spectacular title worthy events, but I think that they make more sense to me then just calling him son of thorns. Although at this point, this is really just an opinion. I don't like his title and I think it should be based off of one of his accomplishments, but if someone argued that they thought Dalinar was an important pat of his life and deserves to be in his title, I would pretty much just have to agree to disagree. 

Also, like, he can see the future? That's pretty cool. Seer of the future is a dumb name but maybe something like that?

[Treamayne]

20 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Renarin meaning "son of Dalinar" is a fan-theory, it has evidence, but it still ultimately comes from theorizing off of why she put the Nar into the name. 

Exactly. More specifically, while some people think it has the meaning shown in the Coppermind - others recognize that she was unfamiliar with Alethi naming conventions or name meanings (whichis why she chose "Re" a Riran name with no meaning) - and it is more likely that it would require better understanding than she had to pruposely evoke that meaning. It is more likely that "nar" was being used to honor Dalinar in the same was modern children are named after a parent, grandparent, other-family, etc. 

Not so much "Re, son of Dalinar" as "Renarin, his own person" (with a nod to his dad thrown in). I prefer "Renarin, unique" interpretation as foreshadowing on how he was the first Radiant of an enlightened Spren. 

4 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

Also, like, he can see the future? That's pretty cool. Seer of the future is a dumb name but maybe something like that?

That seems to be a feature of being a Truthwatcher bonded to an Enlightened Mistspren. If you re-read the RoW quote above, you see that Rlain willalso be able to see glimpses in stained-glass-visions (specifically, in that one he sees Kaladin's 4th Oath and the liberation of the Tower). 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Treamayne
Second Quote

[Ravenclawjedi42]

14 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

He bonded a corrupted spren (was he the first to do that? I can't remember)

I remember a WoB that said that he was the first Truthwatcher to bond a corrupted/enlightened spren, but I don’t think we know if there were others in other orders.

[The Sibling she/her]

Just now, Ravenclawjedi42 said:

I remember a WoB that said that he was the first Truthwatcher to bond a corrupted/enlightened spren, but I don’t think we know if there were others in other orders.

Huh. Wonder if we'll see others. I'm interested to find out how the corrupted spren work for other orders. Thanks!

[Firesong she/her]

Just now, Ravenclawjedi42 said:

I remember a WoB that said that he was the first Truthwatcher to bond a corrupted/enlightened spren, but I don’t think we know if there were others in other orders.

Well, Mistspren are basically the only True Spren that allow Sja-Anat to Enlighten them. 

[Ravenclawjedi42]

Just now, The Sibling said:

Thanks!

You’re welcome!

 

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

Well, Mistspren are basically the only True Spren that allow Sja-Anat to Enlighten them. 

Not necessarily. Just because they’re the only ones you see doesn’t mean that there aren’t others.

[Firesong she/her]

Just now, Ravenclawjedi42 said:

You’re welcome!

 

Not necessarily. Just because they’re the only ones you see doesn’t mean that there aren’t others.

Brandon actually explained that it is like that due to the fact Mistspren are about looking for truth and questioning their current truths. Thus they are more open to finding new experiences and questioning their beliefs. Which I feel implies that there wouldn't be many, if any, non-mistspren that allowed her to corrupt them. 

[Treamayne]

12 minutes ago, Ravenclawjedi42 said:

I remember a WoB that said that he was the first Truthwatcher to bond a corrupted/enlightened spren, but I don’t think we know if there were others in other orders.

Here is that WoB:

Spoiler

Oversleep

Will there be Enlightened spren of other Radiant Orders than Truthwatchers, and why does Sja-anat like Truthwatchers so much?

Brandon Sanderson

The reason Sja-anat likes Truthwatcher spren the most is because they are the most willing. And she considers what she's doing offering Enlightenment, not corrupting. And she considers their willingness to be a part of this. Outside observers might consider her methods less... involving less volition on the parts of some of the spren that she touches. They might argue with her on that point. In this case, as it comes with the two Truthwatcher spren that you see in the books, they both went to what they are willingly. Fully willingly to become what they are. They are, you might say, participants in her plans. So that's why she wants them.

Note how he artfully dodges the questoin on other True Spren. Also:

Spoiler

Wyndlerunner

So Renarin is not a normal Truthwatcher, whether you want to call him Corrupted or Enlightened. Is he the first Truthwatcher of this kind to have existed?

Brandon Sanderson

What an excellent question. Yes he is

 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

I would be stunned if this title was exclusively because he is Dalinar's son. Renarin is definitely one of, and there is an argument that his is the most, important character(s) on Roshar. 

And I agree that it feels reductive to name Renarin based on his father, but even if this title was only because of that, he will most definitely be given other titles in the coming days.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

On 8/31/2023 at 0:39 AM, The Sibling said:

So, I just wanted to make a small complaint about something in RoW. I kind of hate that the title that Renarin is given by Sja-anat is "Son of Thorns". I dislike this because it's clearly referring to the fact that Renarin's father is Dalinar, the Blackthorn (unless I missed something) and I feel that it's silly to give Renarin a title that says nothing about him as a person and only talks about who his father his. Renarin is such a great and rich character but he's always being overshadowed by his family members, specifically Adolin and Dalinar. 

Sadeas calls him useless, Kaladin calls him clumsy, Shallan thought he was weird and was super mean that one time (Gag him if you have to), and Dalinar is pretty terrible father during his early life. Renarin has faced so much, and he deserves for people to see him as who he is and not just in relation to Dalinar. Even when he joins that meeting with scholars (if I'm remembering correctly) everyone thinks it's weird and feminine until Dalinar shows up, because it's weird if Renarin does it, but if the Blackthorn's there than it can't be feminine. 

So when I saw that his title from Sja-anat was Son of Thorns, I was a little disappointed. Why does Kaladin get Stormblessed but all Renarin gets is "Son of this pretty cool guy who's strong and important".

One explanation would be that the titles given by Sja-anat/corrupted spren are just based on who your parents were/your heritage. But that doesn't really work because Tumi (Rlain's spren) calls Rlain "The Bridger of Minds". So Rlain gets a name that really says something about who he is, but Renarin doesn't?

Anyways, just wanted to see what people thought about this. Maybe it's no big deal and I'm blowing it out of proportion, so feel free to tell me that or contradict/correct anything that I just said.

Edit : Also, I just looked in The Coppermind and it says that Renarin's name was misinterpreted by Dalinar and Evi probably meant it to mean "Re, born unto Dalinar". So even his own name is all about Dalinar.

Well, Renarin hasn't done anything major yet. He is a just a Radiant who helps in the war. Obviously he will be referred to as the 'son of thorns' when Dalinar is basically creating a new religion. It's like how the public will think of teft as kal's second in command

[ProfessorMLyon he/him]

Thorns have a symbolic meaning of adversity, dificulty, sorrow and sacrifice. They protect the plants they are attached to from those creatures that would eat it. We are four books into the Stormlight Archive and we still know very little about him. He has only had just a few point of view and nothing really about his history. I'm holding out that title really describes Renarin as who he is and not just Dalinar's son. 

[The Sibling she/her]

1 hour ago, ProfessorMLyon said:

I'm holding out that title really describes Renarin as who he is and not just Dalinar's son. 

I hope so! It is a cool title and I would love to have it mean something more related to who Renarin is as a person.