Religion surprise

[jamesbondsmith He/him]

I feel like I made this point before, but I can't find it in my post history so it might have been in some other forum.

Was anyone else surprised to find out Brandon Sanderson was religious? I got through the entirety of the first Mistborn Trilogy and Reckoners, two books into Stormlight and I think I'd also read both Elantris and Warbreaker before discovering this, and I genuinely thought he disliked religion. So many characters use religion to justify either pointless/petty (e.g. Vorinism defining what you can eat by gender roles and denying women the use of a hand, Mistborn going full Life of Brian with the Church of the Survivor) or outright heinous things (Dilaf's attempted genocide against Elantris, the brutalities of the lighteyes/darkeyes system or the Lord Ruler's society) that I thought he was making a His Dark Materials type point about religion. And let's not forget the ardentia literally making an attempt at world domination in the backstory of the Stormlight Archive and the various examples of religious texts and doctrine being used to mislead people or refuse to believe what is going on.

[Firesong she/her]

He is religious, yes. But he is open about his belief about how some people use religion as a justification for terrible things, which is very much true. 

He does also in his books show religion as a valid road for finding comfort and guidance. For instance, many ardents are shown in a very positive light, as just good people that want to help grant spiritual guidance, for instance. 

It is ultimately a view that speaks about how religion can be used for good and evil alike. Which is the truth. 

[MikeGalager]

13 hours ago, jamesbondsmith said:

I feel like I made this point before, but I can't find it in my post history so it might have been in some other forum.

Was anyone else surprised to find out Brandon Sanderson was religious? I got through the entirety of the first Mistborn Trilogy and Reckoners, two books into Stormlight and I think I'd also read both Elantris and Warbreaker before discovering this, and I genuinely thought he disliked religion. So many characters use religion to justify either pointless/petty (e.g. Vorinism defining what you can eat by gender roles and denying women the use of a hand, Mistborn going full Life of Brian with the Church of the Survivor) or outright heinous things (Dilaf's attempted genocide against Elantris, the brutalities of the lighteyes/darkeyes system or the Lord Ruler's society) that I thought he was making a His Dark Materials type point about religion. And let's not forget the ardentia literally making an attempt at world domination in the backstory of the Stormlight Archive and the various examples of religious texts and doctrine being used to mislead people or refuse to believe what is going on.

 

In an interview, Sanderson said that he believes that religion can be a force for good or evil, depending on how it is used. He said that he wants his books to explore the complexities of religion, rather than simply making a point about whether it is good or bad. I think that Sanderson's approach is a wise one.

[AquaRegia he/him]

I can't think of any other author who has done a better job of showing the "shades of gray" we humans live in.  While Brandon's stories clearly have protagonists whom we root for, they are never perfect - they have flaws and weaknesses, and make poor decisions at times.  Likewise, his "villains" (if the word even applies) are never plain old evil; they have understandable worldviews and motivations, and their actions make sense in context.  In a way, every character is the "hero" of their own story.

Likewise, Brandon has shown a breathtaking ability to paint religion as the complex and nuanced human activity it is.  An unmitigated force for good?  Nobody with any sense could look at history and conclude that.  But always bad?  Millions worldwide are comforted and/or inspired to altruistic behavior by their religious beliefs.  Like everything else we do, it's complicated, imperfect... and sometimes beautiful.

The history and nature of the Shards in the Cosmere convinces me that one of Brandon's main goals as a writer is to explore the intersection of godlike power and flawed humans.  What an amazing job he's done so far, and I can't wait for more!

[Wayne's Pickle]

I wasn't terribly surprised Sanderson was religious based on his books. Especially when I read Mistborn I could see some LDS influence (At least to my surface level understanding of LDS doctrine). 

To explain Sanderson's variety of perspectives that he examines religion through: I believe I heard him say on a live stream that he uses writing and stories to explore how different people think and interact with the world. In an effort to understand people better he tries to immerse himself in a character that thinks differently from himself. Related to this, Sanderson has always said he doesn't take the CS Lewis approach of making his stories a metaphor/parable. 

[crudstunk]

Just to note that Ati and Leras are clearly allusions to the biblical Esau and Jacob, so are likely fraternal twins.

Brandon, just by writing fantasy, is automatically stepping out of his belief system. Fantasy generally demands the presence of supernaturally powerful beings with flaws.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

On 5/10/2024 at 3:19 PM, crudstunk said:

Fantasy generally demands the presence of supernaturally powerful beings with flaws.

I wouldn’t agree with that. If you are using the presence of magic or people getting close to destroy the world, then you could say the very same about reality, though I wouldn’t say it myself for either. People having flaws or the unexplained existing in a story is not proof of flaws in whatever god exists in the story, just as the fact that there are bad people and as of yet unexplained sciences in real life is not proof against a loving god existing. 

Edited May 13 by Thaidakar the Ghostblood

[Treamayne]

On 9/4/2023 at 1:41 PM, jamesbondsmith said:

I think I'd also read both Elantris and Warbreaker before discovering this, and I genuinely thought he disliked religion.

Of note, in case you have not read the Annotations (Please see below), Brandon actually discusses this in the Annotations to Elantris (Ch 6):

Spoiler

Annotations are free on the website, designed to be read after the story, but with spoiler tags for certain things in case somebody wants to read them side-by-side with the story (in fact Warbreaker is free on the website, and lets you bounce back and forth easily - Ch 1, Annotations to Ch 1, Ch 2, etc. 

He used to write them while doing the copy edit as a way of addressing things that could not make it into the story directly, or just providing insight into why he wrote what he wrote. Anyway, here's part of the Annotations to Elantris Ch 6:

Quote

Speaking of the “I will show you the way to destroy a nation line,” this concept–that line, actually–was one of the first things I came up with in my mind while imagining Hrathen. The way that he logically approaches something that would seem daunting–even impossible–to an outsider is a strong part of what defines who he is. I also really enjoy finding opportunities to show how Hrathen sees the world. Whenever I place him on the Elantris city wall and let him inspect the defensibility of the city, I give a clue as to how he was trained, and how he thinks. I don’t believe that Sarene ever pauses to consider just how weakly fortified the city of Kae is–but Hrathen thinks about it on at least three separate occasions.

I worry, just a bit, that people will read this book and think that I’m anti-religion. Those of you who know me will realize how opposite this is of the truth–I’m actually rather devout in my own beliefs. However, because of this devotion, that I understand religion and the power it can have over people. I think that something so potentially good also provides great potential for evil. And, as a firm believer in religion–and religious freedom–I can think of few things quite as frightening or as evil as a religion gone bad.

I am not anti-religion. In fact, I’m not even really anti Shu-Dereth. I tried to construct a religion in Shu-Dereth that had some very interesting, and valid, teachings. However, like some very good religions in our own world, an evil–or even misguided–leadership can transform good teachings into a force for destruction and evil.

 

 

[Forts Board]

Does anyone else feel like the name of this topic is the name of a smoothie somewhere?

[jamesbondsmith He/him]

On 5/16/2024 at 12:58 AM, Treamayne said:

Of note, in case you have not read the Annotations (Please see below), Brandon actually discusses this in the Annotations to Elantris (Ch 6):

  Hide contents

Annotations are free on the website, designed to be read after the story, but with spoiler tags for certain things in case somebody wants to read them side-by-side with the story (in fact Warbreaker is free on the website, and lets you bounce back and forth easily - Ch 1, Annotations to Ch 1, Ch 2, etc. 

He used to write them while doing the copy edit as a way of addressing things that could not make it into the story directly, or just providing insight into why he wrote what he wrote. Anyway, here's part of the Annotations to Elantris Ch 6:

 

 

Thanks for the link. I think part of the reason that I thought he was anti-religion is because the use of religion to justify practices ranging from dumb to evil is one of the main reasons why I'm not religious, so it resonated with me. That, and I kind of feel that a being with the power to create an entire universe has more important issues to deal with than whatever I want out of life. 

On 5/19/2024 at 5:24 AM, Forts Board said:

Does anyone else feel like the name of this topic is the name of a smoothie somewhere?

All I can think of for that flavour is communion wine chucked in a blender with those wafers I've heard about (I'm not religious in the slightest, no idea what either of those taste like) and it sounds kind of gross.

[Ookla she/her]

On 5/20/2024 at 12:54 PM, jamesbondsmith said:

That, and I kind of feel that a being with the power to create an entire universe has more important issues to deal with than whatever I want out of life. 

As someone who is deeply religious, it's this exact fact that helps me believe in a loving God. The way I see it, He has many more important things to do, but He loves me enough to keep an eye on my personal needs anyway.

On 5/20/2024 at 12:54 PM, jamesbondsmith said:

the use of religion to justify practices ranging from dumb to evil is one of the main reasons why I'm not religious

This is extremely valid! Religious people throughout history have done awful things in the name of "God", and I think Sanderson is recognizing that in his books--not all religions lead to good things. Sometimes corruption creeps in, and what started as something good twists into something evil. We've seen it in history, and we see it represented in Sanderson's books. As a religious person, I try to view it as a warning of what pitfalls to avoid--the God I believe in would never ask me to do something hateful or hurtful to another.

Anyhow. I'll step off my soapbox now. You're welcome to take or leave my opinions as you will; all I want to do is offer my perspective, not to try and convert you or something. The 17th Shard is a place for geeking, not proseletyzing, and I hope I haven't accidentally come off the wrong way. If I have, please tell me, and I'll try to fix it and express myself differently.

(Also, I don't know what communion wafers taste like, either, and I don't drink wine. Some other religious soul will have to tell you what a wafer-and-wine smoothie would taste like. )

[Treamayne]

On 5/21/2024 at 7:49 PM, Ookla said:

This is extremely valid! Religious people throughout history have done awful things in the name of "God", and I think Sanderson is recognizing that in his books--not all religions lead to good things. Sometimes corruption creeps in, and what started as something good twists into something evil. We've seen it in history, and we see it represented in Sanderson's books. As a religious person, I try to view it as a warning of what pitfalls to avoid--the God I believe in would never ask me to do something hateful or hurtful to another.

This reminds me of a great section from Iron Druid (spoilered for those that do not care - quotes sub-spoilered)

Spoiler

In Iron Druid, every Religion with enough Human Faith is represented. The protagonist (Atticus, the Iron Druid) meets gods and religious figures from many pantheons, not just the Tuatha De Danann (including, but not limited to: Mary, Jesus, Odin, Ganesha, Zeus, Bacchus, Thor, Monkey King, Perun, Zhang Guo Lao, Väinämöinen, etc.) More detail in the Recommended Reading thread under Urban Fantasy.

There are a couple scenes over the series (nine books - complete) with Atticus and Jesus, but in the first time on-screen (with implied history to their relationship) we get this part that I was reminded of (Book 3, Hammered Ch 10, slight spoilers - language warning)

Spoiler

"Have you ever heard about an organization calling themselves the Hammers of God?”

A thoughtful crease appeared between Jesus’s eyes. “Are you speaking of the old Swedish witch hunters?”

“No, they’re contemporary witch hunters, based in Russia.”

The crease deepened. “Hold on a moment. They sound like assholes.”

I blinked, uncertain I’d heard him correctly. “I beg your pardon?”

Jesus grimaced and pointed at his head. “It’s this tiny human brain—I have to have a filing system for all this information or I can’t keep track of it all. It sounds like these guys would be filed under Assholes Who Do Evil $__t in My Name.”

“Jesus. I mean, wow. That’s the name of one of your files?”

“One of my largest, unfortunately. But I have it broken down into subfolders. Here we are. Assholes Who Think They’re Entitled to Judge and Kill People in My Name.” He closed his eyes briefly and then opened them again. “Yes, now I know who you’re talking about."

Slightly more spoilers (Book Eight)

Spoiler

Some of the Hammers get a redemption arc in this book, with them having learned hypocrisy is a thing. They go from "All magic except ours is EVIL" to "Protect people from things doing Evil with Magic"

Slight Spoilers, Staked Ch 1:

Spoiler

“Rabbi Yosef Bialik,” I said. “What are you doing here?”

“Sharing breakfast, I hope,” he replied. “I assure you that I have no wish to fight. Our past quarrels can remain in the past.”

“You’re alone?” I asked, scanning my surroundings. The last time I’d seen him, more than a decade ago, he had ganged up on me with the rest of the Hammers of God.

“I’m alone.”

“Well, sit down then, and tell me what you want.”

<snip>

“Don’t get me wrong, Rabbi, it’s great to see you when you’re not trying to kill me, but…what do you want?”

“I wish to deliver an apology.”

<snip>

“It was that episode and the next one, with that man who claimed to be Jesus—”

“Uh, that really was Jesus.”

“As you say.”

“Well, I’m pretty sure he would say it too. And to be clear, Rabbi, his existence doesn’t negate or invalidate—much less eradicate—the existence of your god. Or any of my gods, or anyone else’s. He just is. As is Yahweh and Brighid and Odin and the rest.”

He nodded,  “I can accept that now. I couldn’t back then. It requires a flexibility of thought, yes? A certain openness to the idea that people must walk their own road to salvation and not necessarily follow me on mine. I had taken my faith too far.” He shook his head. “It is difficult for me, now, to think of my younger self. I wince at the memories. I was filled with so much anger and had lost the contemplative peace of Kabbalism. But those encounters with you—and watching, from afar, how the Sisters of the Three Auroras conducted themselves afterward, among other things—caused me to reevaluate. I saw that I was wrong to judge them. I should not have judged them. That is the business of a perfect being, yes?”

“I suppose it is. Does that mean the Hammers of God don’t hunt witches anymore, despite that line in Exodus about not suffering a witch to live?”

He sipped his coffee before answering. “Some still do. I personally do not. But I have convinced many of them that focusing on clear evil—demons walking this plane, for example—is much more morally defensible than pursuing witches who may yet be redeemed.”

“That’s good to hear.”

“Yes, I think it is good. I do not know if it will ever be enough to pay for what I did—guilt is a heavy burden. "

 

 

 

Edited July 21 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Ookla she/her]

33 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

This reminds me of a great section from Iron Druid (spoilered for those that do not care - quotes sub-spoilered)

  Hide contents

In Iron Druid, every Religion with enough Human Faith is represented. The protagonist (Atticus, the Iron Druid) meets gods and religeous figures from many pantheons, not just the Tuatha De Danann (including, but not limited to: Mary, Jesus, Odin, Ganesha, Zeus, Bacchus, Thor, Monkey King, Perun, Zhang Guo Lao, Väinämöinen, etc.) More detail in the Recommended Reading thread under Urban Fantasy.

There are a couple scenes over the series (nine books - complete) with Atticus and Jesus, but in the first time on-screen (with implied history to their relationship) we get this part that I was reminded of (Book 3, Hammered Ch 10, slight spoilers - language warning

  Hide contents

"Have you ever heard about an organization calling themselves the Hammers of God?”

A thoughtful crease appeared between Jesus’s eyes. “Are you speaking of the old Swedish witch hunters?”

“No, they’re contemporary witch hunters, based in Russia.”

The crease deepened. “Hold on a moment. They sound like assholes.”

I blinked, uncertain I’d heard him correctly. “I beg your pardon?”

Jesus grimaced and pointed at his head. “It’s this tiny human brain—I have to have a filing system for all this information or I can’t keep track of it all. It sounds like these guys would be filed under Assholes Who Do Evil rust in My Name.”

“Jesus. I mean, wow. That’s the name of one of your files?”

“One of my largest, unfortunately. But I have it broken down into subfolders. Here we are. Assholes Who Think They’re Entitled to Judge and Kill People in My Name.” He closed his eyes briefly and then opened them again. “Yes, now I know who you’re talking about."

Slightly more spoilers (Book

  Hide contents

Some of the Hammers get a redemption arc in this book, with them having learned hypocrisy is a thing. They go from "All magic except ours is EVIL" to "Protect people from things doing Evil with Magic"

Slight Spoilers, Staked Ch 1:

  Hide contents

“Rabbi Yosef Bialik,” I said. “What are you doing here?”

“Sharing breakfast, I hope,” he replied. “I assure you that I have no wish to fight. Our past quarrels can remain in the past.”

“You’re alone?” I asked, scanning my surroundings. The last time I’d seen him, more than a decade ago, he had ganged up on me with the rest of the Hammers of God.

“I’m alone.”

“Well, sit down then, and tell me what you want.”

<snip>

“Don’t get me wrong, Rabbi, it’s great to see you when you’re not trying to kill me, but…what do you want?”

“I wish to deliver an apology.”

<snip>

“It was that episode and the next one, with that man who claimed to be Jesus—”

“Uh, that really was Jesus.”

“As you say.”

“Well, I’m pretty sure he would say it too. And to be clear, Rabbi, his existence doesn’t negate or invalidate—much less eradicate—the existence of your god. Or any of my gods, or anyone else’s. He just is. As is Yahweh and Brighid and Odin and the rest.”

He nodded,  “I can accept that now. I couldn’t back then. It requires a flexibility of thought, yes? A certain openness to the idea that people must walk their own road to salvation and not necessarily follow me on mine. I had taken my faith too far.” He shook his head. “It is difficult for me, now, to think of my younger self. I wince at the memories. I was filled with so much anger and had lost the contemplative peace of Kabbalism. But those encounters with you—and watching, from afar, how the Sisters of the Three Auroras conducted themselves afterward, among other things—caused me to reevaluate. I saw that I was wrong to judge them. I should not have judged them. That is the business of a perfect being, yes?”

“I suppose it is. Does that mean the Hammers of God don’t hunt witches anymore, despite that line in Exodus about not suffering a witch to live?”

He sipped his coffee before answering. “Some still do. I personally do not. But I have convinced many of them that focusing on clear evil—demons walking this plane, for example—is much more morally defensible than pursuing witches who may yet be redeemed.”

“That’s good to hear.”

“Yes, I think it is good. I do not know if it will ever be enough to pay for what I did—guilt is a heavy burden. "

 

 

 

I love those quotes! I have to admit, the usage of the language in that first one is hilariously ironic! Thanks for sharing this; I might have to look that series up!

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

On 5/20/2024 at 11:54 AM, jamesbondsmith said:

the use of religion to justify practices ranging from dumb to evil is one of the main reasons why I'm not religious

I would remind you that people have used many many many different beliefs and ideas to justify practices that range from dumb to evil as well. Science, for example, and patriotism for another. That doesn't mean that science or patriotism are bad, but it does mean that they can be misused. The same is true for religion.

[Forts Board]

I agree with this (assuming I'm reading it correctly.) As a religious person, "Religious People" who use that as an excuse to do terrible things make me sick. 

... But I think Religion is a really good thing, most of the time

Edited May 22 by Forts Board

[The Stormfather He/Him]

I think its not really good or bad, religion is just sort of there.

[clowncarcrash]

I don't think I was that surprised to find out he was Mormon. The only thing that really surprises me is when his books get surprisingly horny which I don't expect from a Mormon writer. Like any scene with Blushweaver.

[Custodis]

I have read this thread and I am strongly surprised. But positively surprised

In the US unlike Poland you have many religions, churches, groupings. It seems to me that it is much easier to gain distance and a different perspective in such a place. In Poland, you are either a Catholic who blindly follows an institution or you sincerely hate the institution. There is rarely anything in between. 

This also shows the maturity of the author. It's nice to know that the author is trying to create an original and realistic world without pushing his agenda into it. 

[frivle]

I have looked at many different authors approach to religion and each has a good perspective, but I think none are quite as balanced as Sanderson's.

In general sci/fi authors paint religion in a negative light, though not always. Anne McCaffrey avoids it at all costs. C.S. Lewis has already been mentioned, and though I love his writing, there is a niche for it. Tolkien is a lot more subtle with religion in middle earth, but it is there. Especially in the fall of Numenor.

None of those have the diversity that Sanderson does or tackles the same issues with traditions, doctrine, or belief. I think Sanderson's books are excellent about finding the shape and process and workings of religion. What it does for a person and for a people.

I could wax poetic, but I will leave it at that. I would love to hear what y'all think about religion in fictional works in general. I love the concept of how to believe when the Almighty is dead. Okay, enough geeking out.