Different/Additional investiture in Lifeless

Aeoryi · September 6, 2023

So, I had this genius thought:

Lifeless require a breath to make, right? And the investiture keeps it alive, right? What happens if we put either:

Another type of investiture in place of the breath?
Sentient investiture (I was thinking unmade) in place of the normal breath?
Different Investiture alongside a breath?
Divine breath as well as a breath?

I think that if other types of investiture could be stuffed into a corpse, it would be very important in the future.

Note: these aren't cognitive shadows, nor stapling on a CS to a body, since it's just investiture in a long dead body.

Any thoughts?

Edited September 6, 2023 by Aeoliae

Njvodin · September 7, 2023

2 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

Another type of investiture in place of the breath?

I feel like this would be harder than using Breath, but it might certainly be possible. As an example, using Stormlight to Invest a singer Lifeless, and, assuming they have a perfect gemheart, you might be able to give them a Command. But it seems like it would be a lot more difficult if its two radically different Connections than to the Nalthian system. If it was, say, a Nalthian corpse, it may be easier. Just speculation though.

2 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

Sentient investiture (I was thinking unmade) in place of the normal breath?

Assuming the first one is possible, we could get an intelligent spren, as they are just Investiture, and smoosh them into a corpse (that sounds really gross, I'm sorry). As another example, you could get the Stormfather (dunno how you'd manage that, but I'm sure its possible), and smoosh him into Tanavast's corpse, and make a super Tanavast/SF .

2 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

Different Investiture alongside a breath?

While I feel like the first two are easy enough to do, this one would be hard, bordering on impossible, as the Connection and Intent of both Investitures would conflict and cause problems. If you could do something like harmonise the Tones of the types of Investiture, then you could perhaps make something new, but I'm not 100% on board with the possibility of this one.

2 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

Divine breath as well as a breath?

This could be interesting, but the way that I see it, a Divine Breath is just a super-Breath, it just automatically brings you up to the 5th Heightening, or whatever it is, while only being a single Berath. So, it'd just be the same as Investing a Lifeless with like a couple thousand Breaths (plus one), which is a tad expensive. It may do something though, as Returned are pretty much just Lifeless. Who knows?

Treamayne · September 7, 2023

3 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

And the investiture keeps it alive, right?

Lifeless are not alive (it's in the name after all) and Breath reanimates them, but does not sustain them. The Breath becomes an artifical soul to animate the body, but without cognitive identity or a spiritweb. Additional breaths would only be needed if enough damage was done to require more "animating force" (as per Vasher's explaination in Ch 46: The Law of BioChromatic Parallelism: the closer a host is to a living shape and form, the easier it is to Awaken.)

Warbreaker Annotation to Ch 33:

Spoiler

However, the more the Lifeless is damaged, the less like the shape of a living person it is, and the more difficult it is for the Breath to keep that body going. Powering a body with only one Breath is hard—it requires the body to work mostly on its own. When you power a cloak or something like that, the Breaths need to provide a lot of energy, since there’s no real muscles to use or skeletal structure to rely on.

So the more wounded a Lifeless becomes, the less well its Breath can keep it going. Eventually you’ll need to stick a second Breath into it, then a third, all the way up until that Lifeless is nothing more than a bunch of bones you’ve Awakened. At that point, you might as well be using sticks or cloth.

3 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

Another type of investiture in place of the breath?

It couldn't be just any investiture, it has to be a form of investiture that resides primarily in the Spiritual Realm to make an artificial Soul. WoB:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

That's a problem, since the various forms of investiture don't play very well together. In Awakening, you're basically giving something a counterfeit soul. (But without the skill or knowledge of something like an Essence Mark.)

3 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

Different Investiture alongside a breath?

Lifeless do not have a Spiritweb to which additional investiture can be attached. Something more would be required. WoB:

Spoiler

little wilson

Can a Mistborn turned into a Lifeless still use Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

*long-ish pause* Uh, no.

little wilson

So I would assume that is the same for a Feruchemist?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah if you-- taking some-- Yeah. No they can't.

3 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

Divine breath as well as a breath?

Whether or not Divine Breath can be used to Awaken is a hearty debate on the forums already. We do not have an answer either way (we do know it can do things other than Heal somebody - but not what else can be done) - such as this thread.

But even if a Divine Breath could be used to awaken, you would have to find a way to acquire one - since any Returned that loses thier Divine Breath is dead. Also, when somebody is healed by Divine Breath - it is consumed by the process and the person being healed does not "receive" that divine breath - just the healing. WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Also, if you look, I've inputted in the last drafts a little hint here of Vasher being a Returned. He says he could have the Fifth Heightening if he wanted it, which is true. He has his Returned Breath suppressed, but if he let it out, he could instantly have the Fifth Heightening. However, he'd be instantly recognizable as Returned the moment he did that. Plus, he couldn't use that Returned Breath for Awakening things.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Twelve

Lightsong Hears Petitions

The concept of petitions—and the gods being able to heal someone one time—grew out of my desire to have something about them that was miraculous. Something obvious, something more than just an ability to make vague prophecies. Their Breath auras are amazing, true, but an Awakener with a lot of Breath can replicate that.

I took the idea of being able to die in order to heal from an idea discarded from Elantris. If you look at the deleted scenes (Caution: Spoilers for the ending of Elantris), you can read about how there was originally a subplot to the story where the Seons (the floating balls of light) could expend the Aon at their center and create a miraculous event one time. However, doing so would kill them. I eventually ended up not using this plot structure in the final draft, and so I cut all references to this ability from the book. I felt that it was too contrived in that novel.

I've always thought it was interesting conceptually, however, so I developed it into this book as an aspect of Returned that makes them different. They can create one miracle—and in this world, that one miracle has to be a healing. They can expend their divine Breath to heal someone.

This created another problem for readers, however. It became very difficult in the book to explain to them that a Returned could still Awaken things—but not by using the Breath granted to them by their Return. In other words, if a Returned gained a hundred extra Breaths, they could use them just like anyone else's. But if they give away the Breath they start with, it kills them.

Quote

Questioner

Can you use a Divine Breath to Awaken a Lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Quote

Extesian

Can you give away a Divine Breath to another human? If so would they have the same powers as a Returned or would they just 'store' it like an inanimate object that Breath is stored in when not Awakened? Does a human require a 'crack' in their spirit web to receive a divine Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

So, a Divine Breath-- you're kind of going along the wrong direction on that line of reasoning. Divine Breaths cannot be transferred. When they are used they immediately become kinetic Investiture and are activated. This manifests normally as healing the person, both body, mind, and soul; but you can't give it up, or transfer it in the same way you can regular Breaths.

52 minutes ago, Njvodin said:

This could be interesting, but the way that I see it, a Divine Breath is just a super-Breath, it just automatically brings you up to the 5th Heightening, or whatever it is, while only being a single Breath. So, it'd just be the same as Investing a Lifeless with like a couple thousand Breaths (plus one), which is a tad expensive. It may do something though, as Returned are pretty much just Lifeless. Who knows?

Divine Breath is a Splinter of Endowment - and rather different from normal breath. Returned are Cognitive Shadows reattached to their physical shell by the Splinter (Divine Breath) and not very much like a Lifeless at all. Lifeless are corpses animated with an artificial soul made of Breath. Awakening a Lifeless with breath that body formerly had can increase the Connection to the body's former Spirit Web, giving it more-than-normal awareness (but not quite a return to Sentience much less Sapience)- implied by WoB that this happened to Clod. A Returned is the original body reconnected (via Divine Breath) to the original Cognitive Identity and original Spiritweb.

Spoiler

WeiryWriter

What if the Lifeless is Awakened with their own Breath? (i.e. they gave it away right before they died and the person they gave it to then used it in the Awakening)

Brandon Sanderson

This has happened already in the world, and it does help.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

Aeoryi · September 7, 2023

Now that all my original ideas were debunked, what about the unmade "possessing" or being used somehow to create lifeless? Certain unmade have connections to the soul (Yelig-nar, re-shephir, BAM) and do you think they could do stuff to lifeless or even (unlikely) creating them?

alder24 · September 7, 2023

11 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

Another type of investiture in place of the breath?

That is actually possible. It is possible to Awaken with different types of investiture, like Stormlight, but it is so hard that not even Hoid knows how to do that. The easiest way is to convert Stormlight into Breaths, but then you're Awakening with Breaths. There are ways you could Awaken with different types of investiture, but both the means and effects of that are yet to be known. Maybe something like pure unkeyed Dor could be used, as it can fuel any invested art.

Spoiler

Ilkhan2016

Breath and Stormlight are both forms of Investiture. AFAIK you can power any of the magic systems from any form of Investiture. Zahel is on Roshar, I believe, primarily due to how easy Investiture (Stormlight) is to come across.

AFAIK the form of Investiture doesn't change anything about the abilities. For example, Szeth was sucked out of Stormlight when he drew Nightblood; and Azure used Stormlight to Awaken in Shadesmar.

/u/mistborn is that right?

Brandon Sanderson

Brandon Sanderson

You can make a Returned feed off of Stormlight very easily. You can't use Stormlight to power Awakening very easily, but if you still have those Breaths, you can use them and reclaim them.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

11 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

Sentient investiture (I was thinking unmade) in place of the normal breath?

That won't work, at least not like you want it to. Investiture resists investiture, so you can't use sentient soul, like an Unmade to Awaken. However, maybe you could do something like Kelsier - stample Unmade's soul into a physical body - in that case you have an Unmade with a body or something like that. Weird, but not what you're asking for.

Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he?

Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

11 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

Different Investiture alongside a breath?

Kind of possible. Like it can certainly be invested, but it's hard to say what would stick to the Breath, expanding its artificial soul. Basically that's what reinvesting a damaged Lifeless with another Breath does, or Awakening Lifeless with more Breaths than necessary could do. You could give a Lifeless Malwish medallions, and that could make them "stop being a Lifeless" which likely means it would expand their soul to sapient levels.

Spoiler

AndyGranny

If you used a Lifeless body, would a Lifeless be able to access an untapped metalmind...

Brandon Sanderson

An unkeyed type of metalmind?

AndyGranny

Thank you, I could not think of that word. Would they be able to access an unkeyed metalmind if the intent when the Lifeless was created, if the intent was that they could...

Brandon Sanderson

Right, I see what you're getting at. Yes, they could. As they could access and use any tool that is appropriate for what they're Commanded to do, they could indeed access a metalmind in the same way.

In fact, doing so may, depending on the metalmind, be dangerous for keeping your Lifeless a Lifeless.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

Spoiler

TurtletheFlsh

What would happen if you created a Lifeless with more Breath then is necessary? Would they be more or completely human or just a Lifeless that's holding more Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

Lifeless with more Breath are an interesting situation. It's quite possible for the BREATH to start taking on a personality, much like a Cognitive Shadow, related to the individual. Whether or not it is actually them, though, is a big question. Note, this doesn't always happen. Often, dumping a lot of Breath in them is like sticking it in an inanimate object with no Command.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 24, 2015)

11 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

Divine breath as well as a breath?

Nope, Divine Breath doesn't stick to the soul, it becomes kinetic when Returned transfers it and you can't invest a Lifeless with it. Unless you're Endowment:

Spoiler

ReaderAt2046

What would happen if, right after someone died, they were made into a Lifeless, and then Endowment tried to Return that person?

Brandon Sanderson

Oooh...now that's a spicy one. Endowment's gift of a superpowered Breath would come down, strike the Lifeless, and all kinds of craziness would occur. You'd end up with a drab god, which would be hilarious.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

11 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

I think that if other types of investiture could be stuffed into a corpse, it would be very important in the future.

Not to corpse, but to the soul. If Lifeless were to somehow inhale Stormlight it would be stuck in his body, and won't affect his soul (unless he would be able to heal) - medallions do that. But if you get investiture to attach to his soul, that's game changer.

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Lifeless do not have a Spiritweb to which additional investiture can be attached. Something more would be required. WoB:

They kind of do have, their Breaths are artificial spiritweb. This WoB isn't about that, as Mistbornness comes from the spirit web, which is separated from the body in the moment of death - therefore a Mistborn body turned into Lifeless won't be a Mistborn as the whole soul of a Mistborn is gone.

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Awakening a Lifeless with breath that body formerly had can increase the Connection to the body's former Spirit Web, giving it more-than-normal awareness (but not quite a return to Sentience much less Sapience)- implied by WoB that this happened to Clod.

I'm not really sure if that's what Brandon meant - Clod is Arsteel, who was Returned. He died while dueling with Vasher, who transferred his Breaths into Arsteel and killed him while he was incapacitated with pleasure. Those Breaths are gone, but they somewhat help him become a better Lifeless. For Clod to be Awaken with Arsteel's original Breath it would require him to gave up his Breath before his first death and Return, reclaim it somehow (Returned lose memories), and then gave it to someone again before Vasher killed him (to Denth, a person needs to receive that Breath to Awaken him into a Lifeless, but why would he do that, when he wasn't expecting to fight Vasher) - that's possible but very complicated and unlikely, so I hardly believe that was the case, and Brandon might just made a mistake. But again, that's possible, so who knows.

Spoiler

Joeh42

In Warbreaker, is Clod the Lifeless body of Arsteel? I like this idea because Arsteel would have had some Breaths within him when he died, as this is how Vashir defeated him and Denth, and this could help explain why he seems to be a little more self-aware than most Lifeless. Could you respond to this idea?

Brandon Sanderson

I confirmed in the Warbreaker annotations that Clod is Arsteel.

Clod is more self-aware than most Lifeless. There is something left of Arsteel within Clod. The Breaths that Vasher gave him when he killed him do have an effect on this.

Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Jan. 10, 2011)

RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 30, 2015)

But then if they knew who they were before death (at least to some degree), and were real siblings, and Arsteel's original Breath was preserved for so long that he was turned Lifeless with it, I think that they might have tried to turn themselves into Returned purposefully, without Endowment's involvement. They would need to gather thousands of Breaths and then kill each other, becoming a Cognitive Shadow. This is possible:

Spoiler

Questioner

Because Zahel was especially Invested when he died, he became that other soul. Does that mean that Elend wasn't actually...?

Brandon Sanderson

Zahel is a special case. What happened with him is, on his planet, he was specifically chosen by the Shard to be Returned. That happens, you don't have to be specifically Invested for that. The god gives them that. Now, to become a Cognitive Shadow, which is what certain people in the cosmere are, you need a powerful amount, an enormous amount.

Questioner

So not the bead?

Brandon Sanderson

Not just being a Mistborn, not just... he wasn't even close to being where he needed to be, if you want to end up as a Cognitive Shadow. You need to do some special hoops. We're talking, drawing forth the power of a Shard, or being endowed with the power of a Shard, or a certain number of Breaths would do it. There is a threshold that you could get, you're gonna end up as a Cognitive Shadow.

FanX 2021 (Sept. 17, 2021)

Spoiler

EogelAorist

Denth and Shashara, and Arsteel and Yesteel, are referred to and refer to themselves as siblings, despite being Returned. Does that mean they have knowledge of who they were while alive, and Vasher is the only Scholar who doesn't?

Brandon Sanderson

Oooh, what a wonderful question. What a wonderful question! Guess what! RAFO. You are supposed to be noticing and asking that. You're supposed to be asking some of these questions about them and about the scholars and about poor Vasher and how this all plays together.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

6 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

what about the unmade "possessing" or being used somehow to create lifeless? Certain unmade have connections to the soul (Yelig-nar, re-shephir, BAM) and do you think they could do stuff to lifeless or even (unlikely) creating them?

Create Lifeless, no - investiture of Unmade would resist being changed like that - you would basically need Odium to kill an Unmade, take their investiture and use it to create a Lifeless of some sort. But I think Unmade would be able to possess or influence a Lifeless - like Thrill for example. Lifeless is very little invested, he wouldn't resist Unmade's influence that much, but I don't know how hard it would be to create specific emotions in Lifeless, but that should be somewhat possible. Vivenna saw emotions in Clod, so they can feel but it's weirder for them - Warbreaker, ch 31:

Quote

She glanced upward, and saw something almost human in Clod’s eyes as he raised his sword against the three. It was the first emotion she’d seen in any Lifeless, though she might have imagined it.
Determination.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Lightsong Sees the Lifeless and Takes Command of Them

They keep them in the dark. This is a bad idea. They don't realize it, but the Lifeless are far more aware than everyone assumes. Clod in this book is a foreshadowing of that, and there won't be much more about it in the rest of the novel. It's one of the focus points for the sequel, if I ever write it. (Which will actually have a Lifeless as a viewpoint character, if I can find a way to swing it.)

Warbreaker Annotations (March 21, 2011)

But Yelig-Nar doesn't possess, he consumes the soul - and he would consume Lifeless single Breath almost immediately, so that isn't a very useful host for him.

Spoiler

asmodeus

Do those consumed by Yelig-nar (like Aesudan, Amaram) appear briefly in Shadesmar after they die, but before they pass onto the beyond?

Brandon Sanderson

Yelig-nar consumes them entirely, like Nightblood.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

If BAM would find a way to Awaken with Voidlight, she could create her own Lifeless with Voidlight she can access, but once again, that's very hard to do. Maybe Sja-Anat too, depending on how she accesses investiture.

Edited September 7, 2023 by alder24
added WoBs

Treamayne · September 7, 2023

8 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

Now that all my original ideas were debunked,

I'm sorry if I discouraged you, and I wouldn't go that far - the reasons we talk this out as a group is to refine ideas. For example, you may consider that if the act of creating a Lifeless requires Investiture that is primarily in the SR - whaere have we seen similar? Then you use Coppermind and Arcanum to look up and follow ideas and discover that we do already know of a similar process - Skeletals.

Spoiler

Bluebar

How does [Bloodsealing] actually work with [the skeletals]? Does it trap something inside the bones like a Command?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it works very similar to making Lifeless. Slight variations, but you are basically animating the bones by using Investiture that doesn't actually belong to them and tricking them into thinking that it does for a little bit of time and making it think it's alive again. And the fact that it's bones is really important for that, for Bloodsealing. But it's working in a similar way. The distinction is that with Lifeless you are actually using part of their own soul, right? And with Bloodsealing you're not.

So that gives you another datapoint to refine your theory(ies).

Quote

8 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

what about the unmade "possessing" or being used somehow to create lifeless? Certain unmade have connections to the soul (Yelig-nar, re-shephir, BAM) and do you think they could do stuff to lifeless or even (unlikely) creating them?

I thought that point was covered above when I noted that Lifeless requires an Investiture that resides primarily in the SR an can function as an artificial soul. Sapient spren (of any type - Seon, Skaze, Unmade, etc) and Cognitive realm entities. Thus, I doubt thay could animate a lifeless (nor would they want to do so).

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

They kind of do have, their Breaths are artificial spiritweb.

I'm not sure about that. Brandon was very specific to say soul not spiritweb. He then further (as quoted above) says "part of their own soul." So, we know that soul =/= spiritweb, though they are related (and very likely one is a component of the other). We know aspects of the spiritweb survive death as a sort-of SR "corpse."

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm.

Oversleep

Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there

That's why a Returned is the original SR Identity and CR Identity reconnected to their body by the Divine Breath. So, a Lifeless must use the artificial soul to reconnect fragments of the original spiritweb to the body - but because it is lacking the Spiritual Identity portion of the Spiritweb and the Cognitive Identity (unless parts were returned through some other method like animating with previously Connected breath) the Soul and Spiritweb fragments will have lost the portions that require Identity, like Invested nature (Metallic Arts, etc.) and can't gain access to invested arts that require an Identity unless additional measures are taken to restore/replace an SR/CR Identity (in which case you are no longer really in the "lifeless" category - hence his comment about an unkeyed metalmind (probably an AluminumMind) leading to no longer being lifeless)

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I'm not really sure if that's what Brandon meant - Clod is Arsteel, who was Returned. He died while dueling with Vasher, who transferred his Breaths into Arsteel and killed him while he was incapacitated with pleasure. Those Breaths are gone, but they somewhat help him become a better Lifeless. For Clod to be Awaken with Arsteel's original Breath it would require him to gave up his Breath before his first death and Return, reclaim it somehow (Returned lose memories), and then gave it to someone again before Vasher killed him (to Denth, a person needs to receive that Breath to Awaken him into a Lifeless, but why would he do that, when he wasn't expecting to fight Vasher) - that's possible but very complicated and unlikely, so I hardly believe that was the case, and Brandon might just made a mistake. But again, that's possible, so who knows.

That is a whole lot of speculation. All I was trying to say was that the breath that animated Arsteel's Corpe into the Lifeless Clod was somehow Connected to Arsteel before that event. It's possible (probable?) that if one of the five scholars was the Awakener (Denth - and very likely) that there was also a different-than-normal technique involved inteh process since each of he five scholars mucked about in Lifeless techniques at some time or another. . .

alder24 · September 7, 2023

24 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Lifeless requires an Investiture that resides primarily in the SR an can function as an artificial soul.

I disagree. Per WoBs you can use something like Stormlight to Awaken, so there is a way to make Lifeless without Breaths. Plus, while Breaths are innate investiture - part of a soul - they are also more physical, stuck mostly in the Physical Realm. That means Breaths themself don't reside primarily in the SR, but when used they reach through to the SR - which can be done with other sources. Moreover any investiture left alone would eventually develop sentience - and with that a soul. So I believe any type of investiture could be used to replace Breaths in Awakening, but it's really hard to get there.

Spoiler

Questioner

With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets?

Brandon Sanderson

So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one.

Bystander

There's still things to decide upon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

13 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

So, a Lifeless must use the artificial soul to reconnect fragments of the original spiritweb to the body - but because it is lacking the Spiritual Identity portion of the Spiritweb and the Cognitive Identity (unless parts were returned through some other method like animating with previously Connected breath) the Soul and Spiritweb fragments will have lost the portions that require Identity, like Invested nature (Metallic Arts, etc.) and can't gain access to invested arts that require an Identity unless additional measures are taken to restore/replace an SR/CR Identity

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. Do you say that the Breath reconnects the entire spirit web of a deceased person that resides in SR? No, because upon death the spirit web and mind are separated from their body. However this body would be considered an inanimate object now, with some sort of cognitive manifestation and traces of soul - that soul will have some connection or be tied to identity of a deceased person, but will be completely lacking the ability of invested arts - as that part of the spirit web was separated from it (that part is the spiritual corpse now - Breaths don't reach there when creating Lifeless).

I disagree it's about identity, I think it's about healing - if you provide Lifeless with a method of healing, they could rebuild the original soul from the traces left in the body's soul - or maybe grow soul from Breath given to it (as per Arsteel, for his Breath to help in becoming a Lifeless, it must have some connection to him or his body, not important, but it remembers to whom it belonged to). Of course that's a bit speculative.

31 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

That is a whole lot of speculation. All I was trying to say was that the breath that animated Arsteel's Corpe into the Lifeless Clod was somehow Connected to Arsteel before that event. It's possible (probable?) that if one of the five scholars was the Awakener (Denth - and very likely) that there was also a different-than-normal technique involved inteh process since each of he five scholars mucked about in Lifeless techniques at some time or another. . .

I think "their own Breath" refers to the Breath they were born with, not some random Breath they had for a few weeks from some random dude. In that case Arsteel, as Returned, wasn't attached to any Breath like that except for the Breath he was born with before Returning. So this WoB suggests that he was made into Lifeless with the Breath he was born with. I think that's likely, considering the origins of Idrian and Hellaran religions - Idrians value their Breath like their soul. It might be that back in the days similar religious practice was present and Arsteel was always careful not to lose his original Breath. Of course, yes, that's speculation.

Treamayne · September 7, 2023

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I disagree. Per WoBs you can use something like Stormlight to Awaken, so there is a way to make Lifeless without Breaths. Plus, while Breaths are innate investiture - part of a soul - they are also more physical, stuck mostly in the Physical Realm. That means Breaths themself don't reside primarily in the SR, but when used they reach through to the SR - which can be done with other sources. Moreover any investiture left alone would eventually develop sentience - and with that a soul. So I believe any type of investiture could be used to replace Breaths in Awakening, but it's really hard to get there.

I agree that regular breaths and regular awakening are primarily PR manifestations of Endowment's Investiture. What I was saying was that Lifeless are "sticky" because the breath that was used for that awakeneing has transitioned to the SR to become the artifical soul mentioned in the WoB. That's why it cannot be recovered. So, any investiture that cannot transition in that way won't make a lifeless - which also explains why it "would be hard" to try using Stormlight, for example, to create Lifeless. However, something like the Dor that can already make the transition and affect spiritwebs (AonDor, Bloodsealing, Forgery, etc) has a better chance of substituting because the nature of the Dor already allows it to transition to the SR and affect the Spiritweb.

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

So, a Lifeless must use the artificial soul to reconnect fragments of the original spiritweb to the body - but because it is lacking the Spiritual Identity portion of the Spiritweb and the Cognitive Identity (unless parts were returned through some other method like animating with previously Connected breath) the Soul and Spiritweb fragments will have lost the portions that require Identity,

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. Do you say that the Breath reconnects the entire spirit web of a deceased person that resides in SR? No, because upon death the spirit web and mind are separated from their body. However this body would be considered an inanimate object now, with some sort of cognitive manifestation and traces of soul - that soul will have some connection or be tied to identity of a deceased person, but will be completely lacking the ability of invested arts - as that part of the spirit web was separated from it (that part is the spiritual corpse now - Breaths don't reach there when creating Lifeless).

What I was trying to convey is that I think in a regular Lifeless awakening, the "artificial soul" mentioned in the WoB only reconnects a very small fragment of the original body's spiritweb "corpse" and that using additional methods reconnect either more or different fragments (possibly restoring some Connection or other spiritweb traits). It would require very specific Intent and Command to try reconnecting Identity, and without that any invested art requiring Identity would not be accessible to a Lifeless.

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I disagree it's about identity, I think it's about healing - if you provide Lifeless with a method of healing, they could rebuild the original soul from the traces left in the body's soul - or maybe grow soul from Breath given to it (as per Arsteel, for his Breath to help in becoming a Lifeless, it must have some connection to him or his body, not important, but it remembers to whom it belonged to). Of course that's a bit speculative.

Two theories, both possible (and possibly both wrong) but not mutually exclusive since it could be some combination. We can't relly extrapolate until we have more data.

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I think "their own Breath" refers to the Breath they were born with, not some random Breath they had for a few weeks from some random dude. In that case Arsteel, as Returned, wasn't attached to any Breath like that except for the Breath he was born with before Returning. So this WoB suggests that he was made into Lifeless with the Breath he was born with. I think that's likely, considering the origins of Idrian and Hellaran religions - Idrians value their Breath like their soul. It might be that back in the days similar religious practice was present and Arsteel was always careful not to lose his original Breath. Of course, yes, that's speculation.

Disagree. I think it has to do with Connection. Of course, their original breath would have connection. But we also know that transfered breath changes its identity key, but that does not mean previous Connections are severed. I think the WoB simply means that breath retaining some Connection to the body influences how the lifeless reconnects to the Spiritweb fragments (or which fragments to which it reconnects). Again, we can't really extrapolate more without further data.

alder24 · September 7, 2023

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I agree that regular breaths and regular awakening are primarily PR manifestations of Endowment's Investiture. What I was saying was that Lifeless are "sticky" because the breath that was used for that awakeneing has transitioned to the SR to become the artifical soul mentioned in the WoB. That's why it cannot be recovered.

I agree, I argue that you can do it with any type of investiture, as long as you figure out how to Awaken with it.

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

What I was trying to convey is that I think in a regular Lifeless awakening, the "artificial soul" mentioned in the WoB only reconnects a very small fragment of the original body's spiritweb "corpse" and that using additional methods reconnect either more or different fragments (possibly restoring some Connection or other spiritweb traits). It would require very specific Intent and Command to try reconnecting Identity, and without that any invested art requiring Identity would not be accessible to a Lifeless.

I disagree. Lifeless has its own Identity, different from a body and a person Awakening (but using Breath of the person to whom that body belongs might help to reduce the differences in Identity). I disagree that Investing or healing Lifeless more, or whatever, would somehow connect that Lifeless to the spiritual corpse, spirit web, lingering in the SR. I don't think it would be that easy, I don't think this connection would be restored and souls reconnected. But maybe something can be done around it in some way. It's hard to say, now, we can both be right, after all Brandon said this, so there is something to your idea.

Quote

sonofstannis

What if he instead were reincarnated as a lifeless? Is there a way he could reclaim it then?

Brandon Sanderson

Lifeless have someone else's investiture replacing their own. (As opposed to Returned, who are augmented.) Depends on how much of them is left, and if they can achieve sapience again, but I'd say this is unlikely.

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Disagree. I think it has to do with Connection. Of course, their original breath would have connection.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. I think the Breath you were born with has some connection to you, greater than any Breath you receive later, and thus this connection helps in those situations.

What also helps is that Breaths carry something from you into the next person, a small piece of your mindset, your personality etc (I don't know how to call it, but you're influencing this Breath in the tiniest way). But it's up to question if that's applied to only original Breaths or every Breath you have - if this is happening with every Breath, would that fragment of the previous owner get overwritten by you when you gave this Breath to another person, or would it hold two fragments, one of your and the other of the previous wearer (that doesn't make sense).

Spoiler

Ghero6

In Vahr's case, did collecting Breath from other rebel-minded people strengthen his determination and resolve?

Brandon Sanderson

It would have had an influence on him, but you would need the numbers of Breaths that he had for any effect to manifest. It's basically a non-issue in the current book, but it could be an issue in some of the things that will happen in the next book.

Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Jan. 10, 2011)

Treamayne · September 7, 2023

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

What also helps is that Breaths carry something from you into the next person, a small piece of your mindset, your personality etc (I don't know how to call it, but you're influencing this Breath in the tiniest way). But it's up to question if that's applied to only original Breaths or every Breath you have - if this is happening with every Breath, would that fragment of the previous owner get overwritten by you when you gave this Breath to another person, or would it hold two fragments, one of your and the other of the previous wearer (that doesn't make sense).

I wonder if it is not-so-much something of the person being transfered, rather the mindset/method of transfer imarting a fraction of Intent to the breath. In singles, dozens or scores, the fractions of Intent are too small to notice - but in the hundreds of aligned intents would influence the Intent of an awakening using those breaths?

alder24 · September 7, 2023

Just now, Treamayne said:

I wonder if it is not-so-much something of the person being transfered, rather the mindset/method of transfer imarting a fraction of Intent to the breath. In singles, dozens or scores, the fractions of Intent are too small to notice - but in the hundreds of aligned intents would influence the Intent of an awakening using those breaths?

Whatever it was, Vahr gave 1000 Breaths to Vasher, and for Vahr it was too small to have any effect as well as for Vasher. So you would probably need multiple thousands of them or tens of thousands to see any effect.

Treamayne · September 7, 2023

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Whatever it was, Vahr gave 1000 Breaths to Vasher, and for Vahr it was too small to have any effect as well as for Vasher. So you would probably need multiple thousands of them or tens of thousands to see any effect.

Well, we also don't know what percentage of that thousand shared a similar "rebellious" intent. . . Vahr did buy some and acquire others through dealings with the underground. That was why I said at least hundreds.

Different/Additional investiture in Lifeless

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