How Powerful is Marsh?

[Trusk'our he/him]

In TLM Marsh was pretty weak. He had used up most of his Atium and was in a weakened state. But what about after he had gotten more Atium and no longer had that weakness?

Honestly, I really wanted to see some of Marsh as a super powerful butt-kicking force for good, what with him being forced to carry out Ruin's will in tWoA and HoA. But we didn't get that.

Okay, we know that he has about three and a half centuries of experience using his powers.

 He has at least twenty-two Hemalurgic spikes that grant him Allomantic iron, steel, pewter, tin, bronze, brass, copper, zinc, duralumin, and Atium, and he also has access to Feruchemical gold, steel, pewter, Atium, and as TLM points to, probably Feruchemical duralumin (leaving seven mystery spikes left).

We also know that Marsh has access to Compounding and clearly knows how to use it.

He knows about Hemalurgy and is familiar enough with it to at least knows the Bind Points used to give people Metalborn powers.

Marsh has access to Cosmere-wide knowledge.

So, what kind of power level are we talking about with him? What kinds of Cosmere-wide entities do you think he could face and win? What would beat him?

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

In TLM Marsh was pretty weak. He had used up most of his Atium and was in a weakened state. But what about after he had gotten more Atium and no longer had that weakness?

Honestly, I really wanted to see some of Marsh as a super powerful butt-kicking force for good, what with him being forced to carry out Ruin's will in tWoA and HoA. But we didn't get that.

Okay, we know that he has about three and a half centuries of experience using his powers.

 He has at least twenty-two Hemalurgic spikes that grant him Allomantic iron, steel, pewter, tin, bronze, brass, copper, zinc, duralumin, and Atium, and he also has access to Feruchemical gold, steel, pewter, Atium, and as TLM points to, probably Feruchemical duralumin (leaving seven mystery spikes left).

We also know that Marsh has access to Compounding and clearly knows how to use it.

He knows about Hemalurgy and is familiar enough with it to at least knows the Bind Points used to give people Metalborn powers.

Marsh has access to Cosmere-wide knowledge.

So, what kind of power level are we talking about with him? What kinds of Cosmere-wide entities do you think he could face and win? What would beat him?

I don't think raw power and abilities matter anymore. He still lived for 350 years and his mind and soul is very strained, spiked by 22 times . He may feel better by the end of TLM, but he still isn't well and won't be. Not to mention he feels he needs to atone for all destruction he had caused under Ruin's control. Yes, he can do a lot with his knowledge and powers, but does he want to fight? I don't think so.

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Allomantic iron, steel, pewter, tin, bronze, brass, copper, zinc, duralumin, and Atium, and he also has access to Feruchemical gold, steel, pewter, Atium, and as TLM points to, probably Feruchemical duralumin (leaving seven mystery spikes left).

Five unknown spikes - don't forget that both eye spikes are H-Steel spikes storing A-Steel. Also, the Linchpin spike which stores an unknown non-allomantic/non-feruchemical quality but functions to prevent physical side effects from having more than four spikes in a person (my guess is Identity or Connection):

Spoiler

Coppermind:

Quote

The spikes create a chain in an Inquisitor's body, and there is a central spike or 'linchpin' that acts as a connector to the lower and upper spikes. If this spike is removed, the Inquisitor dies. A linchpin is needed to avoid deadly side effects if four or more spikes are used on an Inquisitor.^[11]

11-Hemalurgy Table

WoB:

Quote

17th Shard

So the linchpin spike is not always the same type of spike.

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't have to be. The linchpin spike is just, when you're putting that many spikes together into somebody it needs a spike to coordinate them all. That is part of what's holding their body together from all of this damage, and it doesn't have to be the healing spike. The nature of Feruchemy is separate from that, if that makes any sense. For instance, you could put a few spikes into an Inquisitor without a linchpin spike, and they wouldn't die.

 

 

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Five unknown spikes - don't forget that both eye spikes are H-Steel spikes storing A-Steel. Also, the Linchpin spike which stores an unknown non-allomantic/non-feruchemical quality but functions to prevent physical side effects from having more than four spikes in a person (my guess is Identity or Connection):

So you claim that the linchpin spike holds no A/F power but also that Marsh has double A-steel? Math doesn't check out. Marsh had 11 spikes when made into inquisitor, the linchpin spike would be -1, so 10 spikes for 10 powers - 8 base physical and mental Allomantic powers (4 steel and 4 bronze), 1 for F-gold and 1 for A-Atium. There is no room for Marsh to have double A-steel in his eyes, as those spikes were given to him under TLR, so he needs all 4 physical powers to be included in those 10 spikes. His eyes have to contain both A-steel and A-iron.

He could get additional A-steel under Ruin's control but do we even know he had double A-steel at all?

Technically, from the list of powers in spikes we could exclude chromium, nicrosil, bendalloy and cadmium (metals were unknown back then) - that's 8 power so 34-8=26. 4 more powers are also needed to be taken away to match his 22 spikes - but that's assuming he doesn't have double powers. The most likely candidates in my opinion would be both electrum powers, A-aluminum, and therefore possibly F-aluminum too. But if his linchpin spike holds no A/F power, we need to subtract another power from 22 - no idea which one. But that's really speculative and under the assumption that he doesn't have spikes doubling his powers - we don't know that. 

[Treamayne]

AFAIK all Inquisitors had double steel for the eyes. . . 

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

8 base physical and mental Allomantic powers

What makes you think he had all eight base metals? We never had any indication of him using Bronze, Copper, Brass or Zinc before HoA. 

Edit: Obviously double bronze - since he was a natural Seeker.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Treamayne

[alder24]

Just now, Treamayne said:

AFAIK all Inquisitors had double steel for the eyes. . . 

I've never heard of that.

Just now, Treamayne said:

What makes you think he had all eight base metals? We never had any indication of him using Bronze, Copper, Brass or Zinc before HoA. 

Bronze? All inquisitors must have A-bronze to pierce copperclouds. HoA epigraphs ch 37:

Quote

Hemalurgic decay was less obvious in Inquisitors that had been created from Mistborn. Since they already had Allomantic powers, the addition of other abilities made them awesomely strong. In most cases, however, Inquisitors were created from Mistings. It appears that Seekers, like Marsh, were the favored recruits. For, when a Mistborn wasn't available, an Inquisitor with enhanced bronze abilities was a powerful tool for searching out skaa Mistings.

 

It just makes the most sense to give inquisitors all 8 base powers, as they would need them for their work and to rival Mistborn. Even copper to hide when approaching some hideouts or unsuspecting opponents, brass and zinc for interrogation or intimidation.

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Five unknown spikes - don't forget that both eye spikes are H-Steel spikes storing A-Steel. Also, the Linchpin spike which stores an unknown non-allomantic/non-feruchemical quality but functions to prevent physical side effects from having more than four spikes in a person (my guess is Identity or Connection):

Interesting. You know, I was always under the impression that the eye spikes grant physical Allomantic power plus the "natural" Steelsight due to Realmatics, and that the Linchpin spike also grants a power, it just happens to also coordinate the other spikes. So, do we know that those spikes don't grant powers, or is it an educated guess?

Also, I don't know that the Linchpin spike could hold Identity or Connection (at least as the main portion) as it is in the Physical Quadrant of where spikes can be placed on an Inquisitor.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think raw power and abilities matter anymore. He still lived for 350 years and his mind and soul is very strained, spiked by 22 times . He may feel better by the end of TLM, but he still isn't well and won't be. Not to mention he feels he needs to atone for all destruction he had caused under Ruin's control. Yes, he can do a lot with his knowledge and powers, but does he want to fight? I don't think so.

That's a good point about Marsh's mental and emotional wellbeing, not just his physical abilities or knowledge and experience. I guess it would be comparable to Rashek, though Marsh is a lot more selfless and determined than Rashek was.

Still, I don't think Marsh would hesitate too much to fight if it came down to it.

[Treamayne]

14 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

it just happens to also coordinate the other spikes.

It was in the WoB Quoted above. The linchpin spike's purpose was Connection - you can't get that by stealing A-Iron or A-Steel. . . 

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Bronze? All inquisitors must have A-bronze to pierce copperclouds. HoA epigraphs ch 37:

Quote

Hemalurgic decay was less obvious in Inquisitors that had been created from Mistborn. Since they already had Allomantic powers, the addition of other abilities made them awesomely strong. In most cases, however, Inquisitors were created from Mistings. It appears that Seekers, like Marsh, were the favored recruits. For, when a Mistborn wasn't available, an Inquisitor with enhanced bronze abilities was a powerful tool for searching out skaa Mistings.

It just makes the most sense to give inquisitors all 8 base powers

Oh, I would beleive that he had double Bronze - I was just pointing out that we do not see him using it before HoA. Also, not all Inquisitors had bronze, much less double bronze. 

Spoiler

Elladan259

I have a questions. I read in the book that under the Lord Ruler, the Steel Inquisitors had 9 spikes. So they had 8 spikes for the normal Allomantic abilities, and only one left. But they needed one more. One would be a Feruchemical spike which granted the user healing abilities. And the other one would be an atium spike. In the book they burned it often, but how? But then, how could they burn atium? They would have needed an atium spike (extremely expensive) and an Mistborn (because atium Mistings weren't discovered).

Somehow, the number of the spike just don't make sense. There should be 10. Do you have some ideas, or is it just an mistake by Brandon Sanderson? 

Peter Ahlstrom

The official answer is that the number varies depending on how many Mistings they can find and sacrifice. Not all Inquisitors will have all the same powers.

That's why Seekers or natural Mistborn were preferred - if a Bronze spike wasn't available - well, the initiate is already a Seeker and can get one later. . . 

They didn't all get the base eight, because not all 8 were always available at the time they were "initiated." And those four are the powers that were not confirmed on-screen for Marsh before HoA. 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Treamayne

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

It was in the WoB Quoted above. The linchpin spike's purpose was Connection - you can't get that by stealing A-Iron or A-Steel. . . 

I do not believe that is what that quote says. It says that the Linchpin spike doesn't have to be the same type of spike as the spike that provide F-gold. That means that a Linchpin spike can be from more than one type of metal, meaning that what it contains isn't as important as either its placement or the Intent of the placer.

Second, the Linchpin spike can be the spike that provides healing, which means that Linchpin spikes should be able to provide powers and act as a coordinator for the other spikes.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

In TLM Marsh was pretty weak. He had used up most of his Atium and was in a weakened state. But what about after he had gotten more Atium and no longer had that weakness?

Honestly, I really wanted to see some of Marsh as a super powerful butt-kicking force for good, what with him being forced to carry out Ruin's will in tWoA and HoA. But we didn't get that.

Okay, we know that he has about three and a half centuries of experience using his powers.

 He has at least twenty-two Hemalurgic spikes that grant him Allomantic iron, steel, pewter, tin, bronze, brass, copper, zinc, duralumin, and Atium, and he also has access to Feruchemical gold, steel, pewter, Atium, and as TLM points to, probably Feruchemical duralumin (leaving seven mystery spikes left).

We also know that Marsh has access to Compounding and clearly knows how to use it.

He knows about Hemalurgy and is familiar enough with it to at least knows the Bind Points used to give people Metalborn powers.

Marsh has access to Cosmere-wide knowledge.

So, what kind of power level are we talking about with him? What kinds of Cosmere-wide entities do you think he could face and win? What would beat him?

How are you defining "Power" here in the title? 

Just raw combat potential? Deep Cosmere knowledge? Wealth? Influence? 

I would think if pressed, he'd be a powerful combatant who could rival Heralds with his F speed and other combination of powers

He may rival many other Cosmere aware entities which may or may not give him an edge, though there is only (very) limited reason to think he's been off Scadrial

Influence? Well he's the personification of Death on at least 2 worlds, so would have influence on anyone who he reveals himself to and there is power in that as well.

[Trusk'our he/him]

5 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

How are you defining "Power" here in the title? 

Just raw combat potential? Deep Cosmere knowledge? Wealth? Influence? 

I would think if pressed, he'd be a powerful combatant who could rival Heralds with his F speed and other combination of powers

He may rival many other Cosmere aware entities which may or may not give him an edge, though there is only (very) limited reason to think he's been off Scadrial

Influence? Well he's the personification of Death on at least 2 worlds, so would have influence on anyone who he reveals himself to and there is power in that as well.

Okay, good point. The term "power" is a bit vague.

I suppose I mostly meant combat power were he to face other Invested entities in battle (cause that's the most fun ).

[+Kelkamer]

On 9/8/2023 at 8:58 AM, Trusk'our said:

 

That's a good point about Marsh's mental and emotional wellbeing, not just his physical abilities or knowledge and experience. I guess it would be comparable to Rashek, though Marsh is a lot more selfless and determined than Rashek was.

Still, I don't think Marsh would hesitate too much to fight if it came down to it.

Makes me wish I could see Marsh and Vasher interact, with their long lives, deep Cosmere knowledge, and histories of combat.

[Trusk'our he/him]

11 hours ago, Kelkamer said:

Makes me wish I could see Marsh and Vasher interact, with their long lives, deep Cosmere knowledge, and histories of combat.

That certainly would be cool. Especially considering the fact that both Hemalurgy and Awakening have quite a few similarities.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

 

16 hours ago, Kelkamer said:

Makes me wish I could see Marsh and Vasher interact, with their long lives, deep Cosmere knowledge, and histories of combat.

Lets start the petition now with Brandon to get Ironeyes on Roshar and get him to embody death for a 3rd planet!

[Duxredux he/him]

On 9/12/2023 at 0:40 PM, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

 

Lets start the petition now with Brandon to get Ironeyes on Roshar and get him to embody death for a 3rd planet!

I'd guess that we would get Radiants or Fused invading Scadrial before Marsh goes off world. At present, Marsh considers himself the third leg to a tripod / stool to Sazed and Kelsier, neither of whom look particularly stable. Since Sazed and Kelsier are currently restricted to Scadrial, it would take extreme extenuating circumstances for Marsh to choose to leave at present.

As a side note, I wonder if we'll get any other mythological personifications persisting in the Cosmere. Maybe Soonie pups will end up as the Cosmere's version of teddy bears to the great annoyance of TenSoon.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

6 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I'd guess that we would get Radiants or Fused invading Scadrial before Marsh goes off world. At present, Marsh considers himself the third leg to a tripod / stool to Sazed and Kelsier, neither of whom look particularly stable. Since Sazed and Kelsier are currently restricted to Scadrial, it would take extreme extenuating circumstances for Marsh to choose to leave at present.

As a side note, I wonder if we'll get any other mythological personifications persisting in the Cosmere. Maybe Soonie pups will end up as the Cosmere's version of teddy bears to the great annoyance of TenSoon.

That is a fair point on the tripod sentiment, though I don't think Marsh is looking particularly stable either, so its all very tenuous! 

We know one of Kelsier's goals, so there seems to be to me a window for Marsh to leave world as well if Kelsier achieves his goal.

I do have to say that I'm so very scared for Sazed/Scadrial's future. The glimpses of Future Cosmere we've seen are so very bleak

[Trusk'our he/him]

19 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

We know one of Kelsier's goals, so there seems to be to me a window for Marsh to leave world as well if Kelsier achieves his goal.

I mean, Marsh himself isn't restricted from Worldhopping, so he wouldn't even need Kelsier's help to get off world if he didn't want it (WoB).

19 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

I do have to say that I'm so very scared for Sazed/Scadrial's future. The glimpses of Future Cosmere we've seen are so very bleak

I'm sorry to hear that. I'm going to be honest, I don't know that things are going to turn out wonderfully for Sazed; he's being corrupted by the powers he holds, and by all accounts Ati was a pretty good guy before taking up Ruin. But I don't know, perhaps Discord will break off of Harmony and become a Spren all on its own, leaving Sazed's Intent to be actually balanced, thus preventing him from going evil/crazy (personally, that's the scenario I'd like to see most). 

I think that things will turn out okay in the end though; that's sort of Brandon Sanderson's thing 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I mean, Marsh himself isn't restricted from Worldhopping, so he wouldn't even need Kelsier's help to get off world if he didn't want it (WoB).

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that Marsh was restricted from Worldhopping on his own. That was more a reply to the previous post where someone called out that Marsh viewed himself as part of the "tripod" with Saze/Kelsier and so wouldn't leave Scadrial until Kelsier found a way off. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

6 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that Marsh was restricted from Worldhopping on his own. That was more a reply to the previous post where someone called out that Marsh viewed himself as part of the "tripod" with Saze/Kelsier and so wouldn't leave Scadrial until Kelsier found a way off. 

Ah, I see. But yeah, he's probably not going to leave Scadrial unless he has a pretty compelling reason.

[coja2311]

On 8-9-2023 at 7:26 AM, Trusk'our said:

In TLM Marsh was pretty weak. He had used up most of his Atium and was in a weakened state. But what about after he had gotten more Atium and no longer had that weakness?

Honestly, I really wanted to see some of Marsh as a super powerful butt-kicking force for good, what with him being forced to carry out Ruin's will in tWoA and HoA. But we didn't get that.

Okay, we know that he has about three and a half centuries of experience using his powers.

 He has at least twenty-two Hemalurgic spikes that grant him Allomantic iron, steel, pewter, tin, bronze, brass, copper, zinc, duralumin, and Atium, and he also has access to Feruchemical gold, steel, pewter, Atium, and as TLM points to, probably Feruchemical duralumin (leaving seven mystery spikes left).

We also know that Marsh has access to Compounding and clearly knows how to use it.

He knows about Hemalurgy and is familiar enough with it to at least knows the Bind Points used to give people Metalborn powers.

Marsh has access to Cosmere-wide knowledge.

So, what kind of power level are we talking about with him? What kinds of Cosmere-wide entities do you think he could face and win? What would 

The whole concept of power level doesn’t really apply to someone like marsh, because he can store “power” in his metal minds. With the help of compounding he can effectively turn money/metals in more feruchemical speed and strength. Compound enough speed/strength and he becomes the flash, with super strength and atium.
At which point power comparison is meaningless and the question becomes can his opponent be incapacitated through physical means? If yes then Marsh win. If no Marsh can run away very fast. 

So depending on how much he has stored, I would rank him anywhere between grumpy mistborn to Hoid tier. 

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 hours ago, coja2311 said:

The whole concept of power level doesn’t really apply to someone like marsh, because he can store “power” in his metal minds. With the help of compounding he can effectively turn money/metals in more feruchemical speed and strength. Compound enough speed/strength and he becomes the flash, with super strength and atium.
At which point power comparison is meaningless and the question becomes can his opponent be incapacitated through physical means? If yes then Marsh win. If no Marsh can run away very fast. 

So depending on how much he has stored, I would rank him anywhere between grumpy mistborn to Hoid tier. 

Yes, his Compounding is a huge advantage; know for a fact that he can Compound steel and pewter, and possibly others as well. So I'd definitely rank him higher than a disgruntled Mistborn for combat purposes at least.

It's important to note that Compounding isn't infinite or unbeatable though; There are practical limitations to tapping (F-steel can only make you go so fast before wind resistance burns you up, F-pewter has limits based on how big you can make your muscles before you lose maneuverability, etc.) and there is also a limit to how much Feruchemical power you can carry around on your person due to space in your Metalminds.

But still, those limitations aren't that big from what we've seen thus far.

Also, welcome to the 17th Shard! I'm honored to have my thread be the first for you to post on 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

It would be very interesting to see a reflex test for someone compounding Feruchemical steel vs. a highly invested person like a Herald or Returned. We've seen them all move with blinding speed "on screen" before, though its unclear to what level. 

I also wonder if Feruchemical brass to store the warmth of going too fast with Feruchemical steel would help there. 

Marsh really just needs to get himself another 10 spikes to be a Hemalurgic Fullborn 

On 9/16/2023 at 10:01 AM, coja2311 said:

The whole concept of power level doesn’t really apply to someone like marsh ... At which point power comparison is meaningless and the question becomes can his opponent be incapacitated through physical means? If yes then Marsh win. If no Marsh can run away very fast. 

So depending on how much he has stored, I would rank him anywhere between grumpy mistborn to Hoid tier. 

I agree generally, especially if they don't know Marsh is coming. Not quite as easy if the opponent were stocked up with a healing investiture like Stormlight, but potentially. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

13 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Marsh really just needs to get himself another 10 spikes to be a Hemalurgic Fullborn 

It's possible that's already been done. . .

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/312/#e8954

Questioner

Did Harmony give Ironeyes full Mistborn powers, or anything other than what he has with his spikes...

Brandon Sanderson

Just what he has with the spikes, I believe. No-- okay let's say this: Harmony did not do anything... That doesn't mean that Marsh hasn't done things himself.