"Investiture" and its purpose

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

So we know and we have seen higher investiture does cooler stuff. But I am curious as to what that means for Scadrial?  

We see people having innate investiture stolen. I personally believe this gives us some insight on how nicrosil ferrings might work too. 

But what does that mean? 

We see the heightenings all start to compound and make people stronger not only in their personal physiques and mental but also in their awakening abilities.  6th heightening gives instinctive awakening which is, in my opinion, is a prime spot. 

But awakening is a bit different. You are gaining heightenings off of the back of Endowments own investiture and you are using it to fuel your power. 

With Scadrial your innate investiture would be tied directly to preservation and maybe ruin? 

So when these new spikes are being siphoned and moved over what could they do?  When given to someone with allomancy I anticipate we might see them walk upwards towards power levels seen by the bands. Maybe a coinshot with a spike holding 30 scadrians innate investiture would be able to push and pull on the metals inside someone else?  Maybe they gain steelsight like the bands did (which I personally think is different from spiked eyes sight). 

Maybe this is the way to making a pseudo lerasium?  Get enough pieces of Preservation into a spike or two and potentially be so close that you could snap into a mistborn?  

Couple this with the discussion about hemalurgic DNA @Trusk'our has going on elsewhere and you could be looking at new bloodlines of original mistborn levels of investiture from preservation.

[Trusk'our he/him]

26 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So when these new spikes are being siphoned and moved over what could they do?  When given to someone with allomancy I anticipate we might see them walk upwards towards power levels seen by the bands. Maybe a coinshot with a spike holding 30 scadrians innate investiture would be able to push and pull on the metals inside someone else?  Maybe they gain steelsight like the bands did (which I personally think is different from spiked eyes sight). 

Oh yeah, if you could find a way to supercharge Hemalurgic spikes (such as Blanking Identity and combining multiple donor's Investiture) you could do some crazy things. Ascended Steelsight BoM style should be possible with enough power, though it probably would have to be a lot- stronger than what the original Lerasium beads provided. Moving metal inside someone else's body would also be feasible, as would pushing on trace metals.

26 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Maybe this is the way to making a pseudo lerasium?  Get enough pieces of Preservation into a spike or two and potentially be so close that you could snap into a mistborn?  

Not sure that would work; you Snap because you have latent Investiture inside your Spiritweb that is large enough to become a functional Allomantic power. Sufficient trauma or some other extreme emotion (people have, apparently, Snapped due to sheer joy before in Scadrial's past) "unlocks" this Investiture, possibly programming at the same time.

So you'd get a powerful Hemalurgic spike, but it wouldn't increase your own Innate Investiture and make you Mistborn. Additionally, you couldn't become Mistborn via sheer Investiture inside the spikes as those are tied to specific Bindpoints; even if the spikes managed to "Snap" and become new powers, you likely couldn't use more than four at once due to Bindpoint placement.

Still, it's a cool idea, and one I hadn't considered before.

26 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Couple this with the discussion about hemalurgic DNA @Trusk'our has going on elsewhere and you could be looking at new bloodlines of original mistborn levels of investiture from preservation.

You can't actually increase the Allomantic or Feruchemical potential of a bloodline via Hemalurgy; it's been tired by the Steel Inquisitors before and it didn't work- for some reason, certain characteristics brought on by Hemalurgic spikes can be passed down, but not Invested powers.

Maybe if you Allomantically burn the spikes and fully splice them into your Spiritweb you could do that, but I doubt the cost- whatever it is- would be worth it. You may very well just mess up your Spiritweb and not get any powers out of it.

26 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

With Scadrial your innate investiture would be tied directly to preservation and maybe ruin? 

Yes, the more powerful your powers, the more Connected you are to the corresponding Shard. Ruin and probably not Preservation in this case due to the spike's Intent. Though I'm not fully certain at the moment- Hemalurgy's mechanism of Connection and Investiture still isn't fully understood.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Trusk'our

[therunner he/him]

8 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 Maybe a coinshot with a spike holding 30 scadrians innate investiture would be able to push and pull on the metals inside someone else? 

Highly unlikely.
We have seen (or heard about) such spikes in TLM, and they are barely able to grant powers for short amount of time. So at best, they would just function as a spike with power stolen from a Misting.

To push on metal in someone else you need to be TLR level Mistborn, and he was even beyond Lerasium Mistborns, so you would need a lot to get on that level.

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So we know and we have seen higher investiture does cooler stuff. But I am curious as to what that means for Scadrial?  

We see people having innate investiture stolen. I personally believe this gives us some insight on how nicrosil ferrings might work too. 

But what does that mean? 

We see the heightenings all start to compound and make people stronger not only in their personal physiques and mental but also in their awakening abilities.  6th heightening gives instinctive awakening which is, in my opinion, is a prime spot. 

But awakening is a bit different. You are gaining heightenings off of the back of Endowments own investiture and you are using it to fuel your power. 

With Scadrial your innate investiture would be tied directly to preservation and maybe ruin? 

So when these new spikes are being siphoned and moved over what could they do?  When given to someone with allomancy I anticipate we might see them walk upwards towards power levels seen by the bands. Maybe a coinshot with a spike holding 30 scadrians innate investiture would be able to push and pull on the metals inside someone else?  Maybe they gain steelsight like the bands did (which I personally think is different from spiked eyes sight). 

Maybe this is the way to making a pseudo lerasium?  Get enough pieces of Preservation into a spike or two and potentially be so close that you could snap into a mistborn?  

Couple this with the discussion about hemalurgic DNA @Trusk'our has going on elsewhere and you could be looking at new bloodlines of original mistborn levels of investiture from preservation.

Being at higher Heightening doesn't make your Awakening stronger, but you just understand it more, and unlock more ways in which you can Awaken (but an Awaken cloak would be as strong at the 1 Heightening as it is at 10 Heightening). I think the same would be with Scadrial - having more Preservation's innate investiture would make you instinctively better at Allomancy/Feruchemy - you would just understand it better and come up with better tricks (like Vin and horseshoe trick) but it won't make it stronger. What you want is already given by Hemalurgic spikes giving you Allomantic powers - raw investiture alone won't make you stronger at Allomancy, you need this to be coded into the power to make you stronger. You're just more invested. You're not stealing Connection to Preservation (that's what gives you Allomancy) but just raw investiture.

But the question is if Hemalurgy corrupts stolen pieces of soul into Ruin's investiture, which I think is a valid question. In that case every spike would increase your connection to Ruin, not Preservation and this might make you understand Hemalurgy slightly better (not a lot in my opinion).

The steelsight can be learnt by any Coinshot/Lurcher/Mistborn: 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody–at least, nobody the heroes know–is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

The Well of Ascension Annotations (Nov. 11, 2007)

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

Being at higher Heightening doesn't make your Awakening stronger, but you just understand it more, and unlock more ways in which you can Awaken (but an Awaken cloak would be as strong at the 1 Heightening as it is at 10 Heightening). I think the same would be with Scadrial - having more Preservation's innate investiture would make you instinctively better at Allomancy/Feruchemy - you would just understand it better and come up with better tricks (like Vin and horseshoe trick) but it won't make it stronger. What you want is already given by Hemalurgic spikes giving you Allomantic powers - raw investiture alone won't make you stronger at Allomancy, you need this to be coded into the power to make you stronger. You're just more invested. You're not stealing Connection to Preservation (that's what gives you Allomancy) but just raw investiture.

But the question is if Hemalurgy corrupts stolen pieces of soul into Ruin's investiture, which I think is a valid question. In that case every spike would increase your connection to Ruin, not Preservation and this might make you understand Hemalurgy slightly better (not a lot in my opinion).

Interesting. So by taking a Set style spike filled with a lot of unprogrammed Investiture you still think that there could be an increase in learning? That fits pretty well.

I bet that it would also make you somewhat healthier (though admittedly not much, as 30 Scadriens of Investiture doesn't even equal 30 Nathian Breaths), since the extra Investiture would act a bit like having some of the Heightenings.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Interesting. So by taking a Set style spike filled with a lot of unprogrammed Investiture you still think that there could be an increase in learning? That fits pretty well.

I bet that it would also make you somewhat healthier (though admittedly not much, as 30 S

cadriens of Investiture doesn't even equal 30 Nathian Breaths), since the extra Investiture would act a bit like having some of the Heightenings.

I thought, and I could be wrong, that there is an invested hierarchy.  

Nathian with a single breath > Scadrian > drab. 

Say that because lifesense doesn't work on drabs but it does on other people from the cosmere.  

I thought that there was a WoB that said what the set did letting people live after spiking their innate investiture was worse than what a drab experiences giving up their breath.  

With no way to know the gaps and the inbetweens it could easily be taken either way. Perhaps the Set is taking just as much as a breaths worth.  They could be taking more or they could be taking less. 

But scadrial native has enough to trigger lifesense. And a person spiked of innate investiture by the Set is worse off than a drab. 

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Nathian with a single breath > Scadrian > drab. 

Nalthian with a Breath > Scadrian >= Rosharan > minor (or non) Shard world inhabitant > drab > spiked but alive.

Spoiler

Questioner

In the last panel we talked a lot about people from different planets using magic systems on other planets, one of the things I've been thinking about, we've been thinking about, talking about Breath, and people being born with Breath, is that something specific to Nalthis or do, technically, other people on other planets have a Breath as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question and that is a Nalthian thing. Now, everyone in the cosmere to an extent has Investiture, the Nalthian Breath is part what everyone has and then a little extra, plus the ability to share it around. So a person who gives up their Breath on Nalthis is actually going below what a normal person has. But a normal person on Nalthis has more than somebody-- So if you were for instance to pick a world like Sixth of the Dusk, where there's not a Shard in residence, and you compared them to a Nalthian, Nalthian has an Investiture advantage over them. When they've given up their Breath, they have an Investiture disadvantage.

Bystander

So we're not Drabs?

Brandon Sanderson

So we're not Drabs. That's exactly it. We're not Drabs.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

On all the cosmere worlds, it seem as if-- do all the humans have what you call innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see...

*thinks*

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet.

Questioner

Because when they don't have Breath anymore, they would get Drabs, and those don't have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar.

Questioner

Which Shard is that?

Brandon Sanderson

You'll have to read and find out. *gives card*

So yes, I don't think you've seen any worlds where they don't.

Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Volratho

If someone was tapping gold, would spiking a separate ability out of them kill them? Or would it work at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to spike someone without killing them. But they'd never be the same. It would be worse than being a drab.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Nalthian with a Breath > Scadrian >= Rosharan > minor (or non) Shard world inhabitant > drab > spiked but alive.

Yes, and Scadriens vary in Investiture as well; the stronger the Allomantic potential, the more Invested they are.

Quote

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Dec. 29, 2009)

Brandon Sanderson

The Sliding Scale of Allomantic Potential

Noblemen, despite what Spook says in this chapter, are not immune to the mistsickness. The rumor Spook is referencing does have merit, however. You see, since the mists are Snapping people and awakening the Allomantic potential within them, it will affect far fewer noblemen than skaa. Why? Because a lot of the noblemen have already Snapped. They were beaten as children to bring out the powers.

However, that won't stop all of them from being affected by the mistsickness, because the mistsickness is also awakening Allomantic potential that would otherwise be too subtle to be brought out. Pretend there's a sliding scale of Allomantic potential. 100% means you're an Allomancer—in this series, only two people have hit 100%—Vin and Elend. Buried within a lot of people, however, is enough of a touch of Preservation's power to hit, say, 50% on the relative scale of Allomantic power. These people, when beaten and made to pass through something traumatic, awaken to their Allomantic abilities.

There are a lot of people out there, however, with something more like 20% to 30%. These are the people the mists are Snapping—since the mists are, themselves, partially the power of Preservation, they can touch people and increase their Allomantic potential slightly and then bring it to the forefront.

I imagine that most actual Allomancers are more Invested than Nalthians with their single Breath, though non-Allomancers (and Feruchemists) would be less Invested.

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I imagine that most actual Allomancers are more Invested than Nalthians with their single Breath, though non-Allomancers (and Feruchemists) would be less Invested.

Possibly - in OB in the Riino's Lighthouse scene, Kaladin, as a knight Radiant, proved that he is invested enough to be considered of some higher Heightening. Being a Radiant invests you at least to the 1st Heightening. We also know that a Mistborn is as invested as a Radiant. A full Feruchemist would be definitely as invested as a Mistborn, they're basically the same thing from the spirit web perspective.

OB ch 97:

Quote

“How? Impossible. Unless … you’re Invested. What Heightening are you?” He squinted at Kaladin. “No. Something else. Merciful Domi … A Surgebinder? It has begun again?”

 

Spoiler

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

Questioner

Is a Mistborn Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

The Mistborn, while they're burning the metal. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no.

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

Questioner

Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Possibly - in OB in the Riino's Lighthouse scene, Kaladin, as a knight Radiant, proved that he is invested enough to be considered of some higher Heightening. Being a Radiant invests you at least to the 1st Heightening. We also know that a Mistborn is as invested as a Radiant. A full Feruchemist would be definitely as invested as a Mistborn, they're basically the same thing from the spirit web perspective.

OB ch 97:

 

  Hide contents

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

Questioner

Is a Mistborn Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

The Mistborn, while they're burning the metal. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no.

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

Questioner

Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

I wonder if the reason Radiants don't experience agelessness despite their Invested nature is because they are close to the power on a spiritual level, but not a physical one- their Spren's Nahel Bond means that the Radiant is in close proximity a large mass of Investiture (similar to metal being inside a person's body puts it in close proximity to their Spiritweb and makes it more difficult to affect with Investiture), but without it being in the physical Realm it may simply not provide that kind of benefit.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Trusk'our said:

I wonder if the reason Radiants don't experience agelessness despite their Invested nature is because they are close to the power on a spiritual level, but not a physical one- their Spren's Nahel Bond means that the Radiant is in close proximity a large mass of Investiture (similar to metal being inside a person's body puts it in close proximity to their Spiritweb and makes it more difficult to affect with Investiture), but without it being in the physical Realm it may simply not provide that kind of benefit.

Or they aren't invested enough. Returned, with their 2000 Breaths worth Divine Breath, are only a weak CS, Heralds or Fused are more invested than them. Radiants aren't. I doubt they are even close to 1000 Breaths. I would say Radiants are between 1st and 2nd Heightening.

[Trusk'our he/him]

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Or they aren't invested enough. Returned, with their 2000 Breaths worth Divine Breath, are only a weak CS, Heralds or Fused are more invested than them. Radiants aren't. I doubt they are even close to 1000 Breaths. I would say Radiants are between 1st and 2nd Heightening.

But if Radiants were that Invested they'd feel a lot younger and would be able to run around even while being quite old. I suppose it could just be harder to notice since it's a gradual increase in Investiture, but my guess is that the actual Investiture in their Spiritweb isn't nearly as large as what their Spren has or even a first Heightening Awakener. The difference between physicla and spiritual Investiture could be partially to blame, but I suspect that this is more likely.

Additionally, do we know that Fused and Heralds are more Invested than Returned? Perhaps their levels of Innate Investiture are comparable, though Connection seems to be more important than raw Investiture for their survival; Fused feed directly off of Odium and the Heralds have the Oathpact. I don't know that massive quantities of Investiture would be necessary to have that Connection, though Returned do need lots of extra Investiture to do their thing and heal someone, so perhaps Returned are more Invested passively.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

But if Radiants were that Invested they'd feel a lot younger and would be able to run around even while being quite old.

No. The 1st Heightening gives you something like 10 more years. That's not so much that people would notice how long they are living. 

7 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Additionally, do we know that Fused and Heralds are more Invested than Returned?

Yes, from what Vasher said in RoW ch 15:

Quote

“The Fused?” Kaladin asked. “That’s what they are?”
“Yeah,” he said. “Most of us stop aging when it happens, gaining a kind of immortality.” “
Is there a … way to kill something like you? Permanently?”
“Lots of ways. For the weaker ones, just kill the body again, make sure no one Invests the soul with more strength, and they’ll slip away in a few minutes. For stronger ones … well, you might be able to starve them. A lot of Type Twos feed on power. Keeps them going.
“These enemies of yours though, I think they’re too strong for that. They’ve lasted thousands of years already, and seem Connected to Odium to feed directly on his power. You’ll have to find a way to disrupt their souls. You can’t just rip them apart; you need a weapon so strong, it unravels the soul.” He squinted, looking off into the distance. “I know through sorry experience those kinds of weapons are very dangerous to make, and never seem to work right.”

Yumi spoilers:

Spoiler

From Yumi WoBs we know that Heralds are more invested than Returned, but Elantrian is even more invested than them.

Spoiler

Argent

If we are looking at very highly Invested beings, we have Yumi, and we are told that she is more Invested than Elantrians, more Invested than Returned. Let's compare Yumi, Elantrians, and Heralds. Who is most Invested, who is least Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Of those, probably Heralds... The thing is, the Heralds varied. How in tune and aligned they are with their oaths, their promise... It wasn't Oaths, but they did promise certain things when they became Heralds. It was pre Knights Radiants, it's not as formalized as Oaths. How in line with the power of Honor, how in line with the kind of natural Investiture of Roshar--which is separate from Honor, Cultivation and Odium--are they, how can they draw upon that. I will call them the least of the three though.

Argent

So Heralds on the bottom, and Yumi on top, and Elantrians in the middle?

Brandon Sanderson

Yumi on top, but Yumi's very close to an Elantrian. They're within the same conversation. And most of the yoki-hijo were traditionally in the past less, they've gained Investiture over time.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No. The 1st Heightening gives you something like 10 more years. That's not so much that people would notice how long they are living. 

Yes, from what Vasher said in RoW ch 15:

Yumi spoilers:

  Hide contents

From Yumi WoBs we know that Heralds are more invested than Returned, but Elantrian is even more invested than them.

  Hide contents

Argent

If we are looking at very highly Invested beings, we have Yumi, and we are told that she is more Invested than Elantrians, more Invested than Returned. Let's compare Yumi, Elantrians, and Heralds. Who is most Invested, who is least Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Of those, probably Heralds... The thing is, the Heralds varied. How in tune and aligned they are with their oaths, their promise... It wasn't Oaths, but they did promise certain things when they became Heralds. It was pre Knights Radiants, it's not as formalized as Oaths. How in line with the power of Honor, how in line with the kind of natural Investiture of Roshar--which is separate from Honor, Cultivation and Odium--are they, how can they draw upon that. I will call them the least of the three though.

Argent

So Heralds on the bottom, and Yumi on top, and Elantrians in the middle?

Brandon Sanderson

Yumi on top, but Yumi's very close to an Elantrian. They're within the same conversation. And most of the yoki-hijo were traditionally in the past less, they've gained Investiture over time.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

 

Where do you think the GodKing sits in the lineup?  Considering he has at least 25x the investiture of the returned themselves?  

All of these other beings seem to have a way to come back or heal. Do you think the God King or anyone with 50,000+ breaths would have some sort of passive healing vs all but the most dangerous weapons as Vasher said?  

Also there is definately a difference between the innate investiture and kinetic. A lot of these example mix both don't they?  That is where the Nalthian system fails. They don't really have kinetic investiture to use right? They simply supply so much innate investiture that even inanimate objects start to become awake enough to follow commands. 

Do you think that the innate investiture at those levels would impact the abilities of kinetic investirure from other sources?  Say you had a plain old pewter arm who happened to land 50,000 breaths.  Do you think it would supercharge his pewter usage?  Do you think while using kinetic investiture in addition to all of those breaths that simple thug could heal through more devastating attacks?  Could they, overtime, heal the withered husk of a shardblade cut arm or legs? 

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Where do you think the GodKing sits in the lineup?  Considering he has at least 25x the investiture of the returned themselves?  

Possibly the most invested person, maybe except for Dawnshards.

17 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

All of these other beings seem to have a way to come back or heal. Do you think the God King or anyone with 50,000+ breaths would have some sort of passive healing vs all but the most dangerous weapons as Vasher said?  

No self-healing, even passive one. That's not how Breaths work. But he is so invested that upon his death he would turn into CS.

Spoiler

vandar10

Could someone with enough Breaths use part of them to heal himself without the help of a Returned?? Could the God King have healed himself without Lightsong with enough knowledge?

Brandon Sanderson

The nature of the Warbreaker magic is tied to the shard of Endowment, which is about giving. There are, therefore, things you cannot do for yourself.

[...]

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Because Zahel was especially Invested when he died, he became that other soul. Does that mean that Elend wasn't actually...?

Brandon Sanderson

Zahel is a special case. What happened with him is, on his planet, he was specifically chosen by the Shard to be Returned. That happens, you don't have to be specifically Invested for that. The god gives them that. Now, to become a Cognitive Shadow, which is what certain people in the cosmere are, you need a powerful amount, an enormous amount.

Questioner

So not the bead?

Brandon Sanderson

Not just being a Mistborn, not just... he wasn't even close to being where he needed to be, if you want to end up as a Cognitive Shadow. You need to do some special hoops. We're talking, drawing forth the power of a Shard, or being endowed with the power of a Shard, or a certain number of Breaths would do it. There is a threshold that you could get, you're gonna end up as a Cognitive Shadow.

FanX 2021 (Sept. 17, 2021)

 

19 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Also there is definately a difference between the innate investiture and kinetic. A lot of these example mix both don't they?  That is where the Nalthian system fails.

Both kinetic and static investiture work with the Nalthian system, but Surgebinders or Mistborn use relatively small amount of investiture so it doesn't change anything.

Spoiler

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

22 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Say you had a plain old pewter arm who happened to land 50,000 breaths.  Do you think it would supercharge his pewter usage? 

No.

22 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think while using kinetic investiture in addition to all of those breaths that simple thug could heal through more devastating attacks? 

No. Breaths don't heal.

23 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Could they, overtime, heal the withered husk of a shardblade cut arm or legs? 

No.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

34 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Possibly the most invested person, maybe except for Dawnshards.

No self-healing, even passive one. That's not how Breaths work. But he is so invested that upon his death he would turn into CS.

  Reveal hidden contents

vandar10

Could someone with enough Breaths use part of them to heal himself without the help of a Returned?? Could the God King have healed himself without Lightsong with enough knowledge?

Brandon Sanderson

The nature of the Warbreaker magic is tied to the shard of Endowment, which is about giving. There are, therefore, things you cannot do for yourself.

[...]

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Because Zahel was especially Invested when he died, he became that other soul. Does that mean that Elend wasn't actually...?

Brandon Sanderson

Zahel is a special case. What happened with him is, on his planet, he was specifically chosen by the Shard to be Returned. That happens, you don't have to be specifically Invested for that. The god gives them that. Now, to become a Cognitive Shadow, which is what certain people in the cosmere are, you need a powerful amount, an enormous amount.

Questioner

So not the bead?

Brandon Sanderson

Not just being a Mistborn, not just... he wasn't even close to being where he needed to be, if you want to end up as a Cognitive Shadow. You need to do some special hoops. We're talking, drawing forth the power of a Shard, or being endowed with the power of a Shard, or a certain number of Breaths would do it. There is a threshold that you could get, you're gonna end up as a Cognitive Shadow.

FanX 2021 (Sept. 17, 2021)

 

Both kinetic and static investiture work with the Nalthian system, but Surgebinders or Mistborn use relatively small amount of investiture so it doesn't change anything.

  Reveal hidden contents

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

No.

No. Breaths don't heal.

No.

Higher heightening interact with Awakening in a way that makes the awakener far more proficient. Do you think these sorts of interactions are shard dependent?  Vasher and twinsoul are both great examples of exploiting one shards investiture to fuel another system entirely. 

Are understanding the magic via supercharged investiture and performing better two different things?

I imagine that if you rewired some breaths and used them to supplement what is already burning allomamtically they could boost the effectiveness of that power.  

So healing and pewter never quite worked like that.  What about steel sight?  It seems to be more of an unlocking of understandings according to the idea that even an era 2 allomancer could unlock the ability to see trace metals (or axi? These two things seem to be either the exact same or totally different and I am not 100% convinced either way as Kel doesn't mention lines as he has no ability to push and pull on metal anymore but sees the same way inquisitors do.)  Would having a supercharged spirit web with so much investiture make burning the metals more of an instinctive thing?  

We hear a ton about instinctive burning and it seems that most allomancers reach that point (especially pewter) eventually. But in awakening it requires the 6th heightening. Perhaps awakening did not come into existance until the first person obtained the 6th heightening?  It is something that can be taught but it was unknown until the first person broke through to the instinctive stage?  

A kid could learn to build a block house on their own but how much faster can they accomplish that if they have a parent to show them how?  

I kind of view investiture the same way at those higher levels.  

Where is the line between shards and their investiture working on outside systems drawn?  It is possible to fuel other systems with other shards. Heck, it is possible to fuel a system belonging to something outside of Adonalsium entirely as we see with Aetherbound powers being fueled by a shards investiture.  

I find it hard to believe that having the 10th heightening wouldn't unlock some insight and power to other magics.  Doesnt a Dawnshard supercharge everything? 

All that said.  I think it would be a large waste to "burn breaths" or something. But the heightening and being that invested should have some sort of impact on even other non Endowment systems no? 

[Trusk'our he/him]

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Where do you think the GodKing sits in the lineup?  Considering he has at least 25x the investiture of the returned themselves?  

As @alder24 mentioned, GodKing is less Invested that a Dawnshard, but more Invested than basically any other non-Shardic entity.

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

All of these other beings seem to have a way to come back or heal. Do you think the God King or anyone with 50,000+ breaths would have some sort of passive healing vs all but the most dangerous weapons as Vasher said?  

The Heightenings do increase the rate of healing, though we don't know how much exactly- it's probably comparable to Allomantic pewter, where it will boost your natural healing but you won't regenerate lost limbs or anything. Additonally, Shardblade or Hemalurgic injuries almost certainly wouldn't heal as they are spiritual and not physical, so a boost to natural healing likely wouldn't work.

Becoming Highly Invested would potentially help block a Shardblade attack in the first place though, due to more interference that the blade has to pass through. It almost certainly wouldn't stop the blade altogether, but it should help.

Also, it might be possible to Awaken a Blade-deadened limb and restore it to functionality since it's still physically intact after having been killed. Might be some weird ramifications for that.

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Also there is definately a difference between the innate investiture and kinetic. A lot of these example mix both don't they?  That is where the Nalthian system fails. They don't really have kinetic investiture to use right? They simply supply so much innate investiture that even inanimate objects start to become awake enough to follow commands. 

Yes, Radiants, Metalborn, they have a mixing of the two, but primarily Kinetic Investiture is what they use. Awakening is almost entirely Innate, which is one of the things that makes it so unique; the only times I'm aware of Breaths not being considered Static Investiture is during the process of being transferred from one body to another (or to an object) or when a Divine Breath is being used to heal another.

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think that the innate investiture at those levels would impact the abilities of kinetic investirure from other sources?  Say you had a plain old pewter arm who happened to land 50,000 breaths.  Do you think it would supercharge his pewter usage?  Do you think while using kinetic investiture in addition to all of those breaths that simple thug could heal through more devastating attacks?  Could they, overtime, heal the withered husk of a shardblade cut arm or legs? 

There probably would be an increase to the efficiency of the Pewterarm's Allomantic powers; all the Static Investiture they collected and pooled inside themselves would probably draw them closer to the Spiritual Realm, and as we see with Savants that is at least part of the reason they are so much more efficient with their Investiture usage than non-Savants (WoB). So yes, there would likely be some benefit to the Pewterarm's Allomantic abilities whilst holding enough Breaths, though the Awakening and other aspects of holding those Breaths would probably outweigh those benefits significantly. Think of it like a typical Resonance; cool to have and undoubtedly useful, but the actual powers that lead to it are way more useful in most cases.

Also, the Pewterarm could probably learn to Command those Breaths to be used as Allomantic fuel. Expensive to be sure, but because you already have the power on you and don't have to draw it at a fixed rate from good ol' Pres, you could use it like Feruchemy and burn through it as fast as you wanted, allowing you to pull a maneuver like the ones in TLM with the Purified Dor (as a side note, we don't actually know how far a single Breath would go as Allomantic fuel- it could be a minute of normal burning or it could be an hour of flaring for all we know). If the Pewterarm doesn't feel like burning though a small town's economy in the span of a few minutes (okay, still don't actually know how far they'd go), they could instead burn their metals as normal and only use up a small amount of their Breaths on top of that to gain a smaller (though far more sustainable and efficient) edge.

As Vasher proved in Warbreaker, losing a small fortune to perform a single life-saving feat is still worth it.

6 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Higher heightening interact with Awakening in a way that makes the awakener far more proficient. Do you think these sorts of interactions are shard dependent?  Vasher and twinsoul are both great examples of exploiting one shards investiture to fuel another system entirely. 

Are understanding the magic via supercharged investiture and performing better two different things?

I imagine that if you rewired some breaths and used them to supplement what is already burning allomamtically they could boost the effectiveness of that power.  

So healing and pewter never quite worked like that.  What about steel sight?  It seems to be more of an unlocking of understandings according to the idea that even an era 2 allomancer could unlock the ability to see trace metals (or axi? These two things seem to be either the exact same or totally different and I am not 100% convinced either way as Kel doesn't mention lines as he has no ability to push and pull on metal anymore but sees the same way inquisitors do.)  Would having a supercharged spirit web with so much investiture make burning the metals more of an instinctive thing?  

We hear a ton about instinctive burning and it seems that most allomancers reach that point (especially pewter) eventually. But in awakening it requires the 6th heightening. Perhaps awakening did not come into existance until the first person obtained the 6th heightening?  It is something that can be taught but it was unknown until the first person broke through to the instinctive stage?  

A kid could learn to build a block house on their own but how much faster can they accomplish that if they have a parent to show them how?  

I kind of view investiture the same way at those higher levels.  

Where is the line between shards and their investiture working on outside systems drawn?  It is possible to fuel other systems with other shards. Heck, it is possible to fuel a system belonging to something outside of Adonalsium entirely as we see with Aetherbound powers being fueled by a shards investiture.  

I find it hard to believe that having the 10th heightening wouldn't unlock some insight and power to other magics.  Doesnt a Dawnshard supercharge everything? 

I think that holding a lot of Breaths could potentially enhance other Invested powers and knowledge, though it wouldn't be very efficient; there would be not extra Connection granted by those Breaths to those systems, so innate knowledge probably wouldn't be happening. However, enough Investiture would start to expand your mind and draw you closer to the Spiritual Realm, which may be able to give you a universal edge when it comes to Investiture efficiency and learning how to use those powers.

But if it does work that way, you'd need a lot- a LOT- of Breaths, likely far more than the GodKing himself- enough that you'd start to pseudo- ascend and become a sort of Cosmeric demigod. Actually, come to think of it, this may have basically been what Telsin did in TLM, though obviously with Autonomy's Shardic intervention instead of through Bio-Chromatic Breaths.

These are my takes anyway.

[therunner he/him]

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

There probably would be an increase to the efficiency of the Pewterarm's Allomantic powers; all the Static Investiture they collected and pooled inside themselves would probably draw them closer to the Spiritual Realm, and as we see with Savants that is at least part of the reason they are so much more efficient with their Investiture usage than non-Savants (WoB). So yes, there would likely be some benefit to the Pewterarm's Allomantic abilities whilst holding enough Breaths, though the Awakening and other aspects of holding those Breaths would probably outweigh those benefits significantly. Think of it like a typical Resonance; cool to have and undoubtedly useful, but the actual powers that lead to it are way more useful in most cases.

I don't think holding Breaths would boost your other Invested Arts.
One, there is no evidence of that in Hoid.
Two, the WoB says that savants are more Connected to the Shard, that is the primary reason for increased efficiency. Holding Investiture won't Connect you closer to another Shard.

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Also, the Pewterarm could probably learn to Command those Breaths to be used as Allomantic fuel.

I don't think so.
Purified Investiture can be used as fuel by anyone, but Breaths are keyed Investiture. If it was as easy as Commanding Breaths, than Ghostbloods would not need Purified Dor.

And nature of Endowments Investiture is that you give it away to use it. So that alone probably prohibits just burning through it.

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Higher heightening interact with Awakening in a way that makes the awakener far more proficient. Do you think these sorts of interactions are shard dependent? 

Yes, I would say they are unique to Shard. So far this interaction is literally just a facet of Endowment Invested Art (Awakening). No other Art has such expression.

Oaths don't make Allomancers better at Allomancy, why would Heightening?

Quote

Vasher and twinsoul are both great examples of exploiting one shards investiture to fuel another system entirely.

Not exactly. Twinsoul is using Unkeyed Investiture, which technically belongs to no Shard.
Vasher, we don't know how he does what he does, but he is specifically not using it to fuel another system. He does not know how to awaken Stormlight, he just eats it, like Nightblood does.

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Are understanding the magic via supercharged investiture and performing better two different things?

I would say so yes. Misting can understand all they want about Allomancy, but without closer Connection to Preservation/Harmony, they won't be any more powerful.

Quote

I imagine that if you rewired some breaths and used them to supplement what is already burning allomamtically they could boost the effectiveness of that power.  

That would probably require Unkeyeing Breaths first, and then it's just like using Purified Dor.

Quote

So healing and pewter never quite worked like that.  What about steel sight?  It seems to be more of an unlocking of understandings according to the idea that even an era 2 allomancer could unlock the ability to see trace metals (or axi? These two things seem to be either the exact same or totally different and I am not 100% convinced either way as Kel doesn't mention lines as he has no ability to push and pull on metal anymore but sees the same way inquisitors do.)  Would having a supercharged spirit web with so much investiture make burning the metals more of an instinctive thing?  

Why would it?
Breaths don't grant greater understanding on conscious level, and only grant instinct when it comes to Awakening. Since they are part of Endowments Invested Art.

Quote

We hear a ton about instinctive burning and it seems that most allomancers reach that point (especially pewter) eventually.

Instinctive burning is not something Allomancers reach eventually, they can do it even before they realize they have power.

And Instinctive burning can also be triggered by simple survival instinct, like with Pewter.

Quote

But in awakening it requires the 6th heightening. Perhaps awakening did not come into existance until the first person obtained the 6th heightening?  It is something that can be taught but it was unknown until the first person broke through to the instinctive stage?  

Awakening is much more complex than Allomancy. You need proper Command and Intent any time you use Breaths. Allomancer just burns metal and stuff happens.

Awakening (Nalthian) existed ever since Endowment settled on Nalthis. When people first learned about it is open question, but it seems to be relatively recent.

Quote

 It is possible to fuel other systems with other shards. Heck, it is possible to fuel a system belonging to something outside of Adonalsium entirely as we see with Aetherbound powers being fueled by a shards investiture.  

As far as we know, it is not possible. In theory any Shard could manually fuel any other Invested Art as long as it does not go against their Intent.

But mortal cannot just take e.g. Mists and use it to fuel Surgebinding, nor can Radiant take in Stormlight and use it to fuel Allomancy (as far as we know).  You need purified Investiture for such uses. Even Aetherbound used purified Investiture, and not one keyed to a Shard.

There are clearly some possibilities of crossover that are more feasible than others. Ruin can fuel Allomancy for example (either manually or Hemalurgically).
Surges can use Voidlight, if the Radiant has bond with Voidspren.

But in both of those cases wielder needs Connection to both Shards involved, and the Shards involved are settled in the same system, possibly meaning that their Invested Arts are intertwined on some level.

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I find it hard to believe that having the 10th heightening wouldn't unlock some insight and power to other magics.

But the heightening and being that invested should have some sort of impact on even other non Endowment systems no? 

Again, why would it unlock any insight to other Invested Art?

Breaths, Heightening both are just a part of Awakening, particular Invested Art. So of course Heightening can do things within that Invested Art. You can think of it like Oaths in Surgebinding. Oaths have no effect on Invested Arts other than Surgebinding, why should Heightening have on other Invested Arts?

Quote

Doesnt a Dawnshard supercharge everything? 

Dawnshard is not just a bunch of Investiture worth several thousand Breaths, they are much more than that.

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by therunner

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 9/14/2023 at 2:09 AM, therunner said:

Two, the WoB says that savants are more Connected to the Shard, that is the primary reason for increased efficiency. Holding Investiture won't Connect you closer to another Shard.

Ah, I hadn't seen that before but now that you mention it, yes, that seems to be how that works.

Honestly, this is way cooler; it seems to point toward Connection being something that draws you closer to the Spiritual Realm, which has a whole lot of implications.

Probably going to make some posts about it. Thanks @therunner! 

[therunner he/him]

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Ah, I hadn't seen that before but now that you mention it, yes, that seems to be how that works.

Honestly, this is way cooler; it seems to point toward Connection being something that draws you closer to the Spiritual Realm, which has a whole lot of implications.

Probably going to make some posts about it. Thanks @therunner! 

No problem, looking forward to what you come up with

Though I would think that not necessarily every Connection draws you closer towards SR, only some do. And since Shards are primarily in SR, Connections to them could possibly draw person closer to SR.

Connection to another person, probably not so much.

[Argenti he/him]

On 9/28/2023 at 4:15 PM, therunner said:

Though I would think that not necessarily every Connection draws you closer towards SR, only some do. And since Shards are primarily in SR, Connections to them could possibly draw person closer to SR.

You can have a connection the PH (CS lack this) so definitely not every connection drags you into the SR

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 hours ago, Argenti said:

You can have a connection the PH (CS lack this) so definitely not every connection drags you into the SR

Probably, though Connection to a Shard should do it since they primarily exist in the SR.

That makes me wonder if Connecting to Dominion or Devotion would draw you closer to the CR. Maybe you could see and physically interact with Spren as Lift does if you did so.

[Argenti he/him]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

That makes me wonder if Connecting to Dominion or Devotion would draw you closer to the CR. Maybe you could see and physically interact with Spren as Lift does if you did so.

Now that would be funky.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Probably, though Connection to a Shard should do it since they primarily exist in the SR.

That makes me wonder if Connecting to Dominion or Devotion would draw you closer to the CR. Maybe you could see and physically interact with Spren as Lift does if you did so.

17 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Now that would be funky.

To be fair, Seons and Skaze already have a bit of that going on. . .

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

To be fair, Seons and Skaze already have a bit of that going on. . .

You mean because they are in the PR?