Could you use painting to change a sprens shape?

[Elite01]

Alright, so I have been trying to think of ways that a painter's skillset could be useful in the wider cosmere. They no longer have nightmares to defend against so there aren't any super obvious answers. 

We know that spren on Roshar will change based on your perception if only slightly. I think in the first book there's a study where a flame spren will stay the exact height if you write down the measurements. So my question is how far does this go? 

If there was a flame spren and I started to do the same process used to mold nightmares (which is more a mental technique than a type of magic), could I change it's shape? Either make it smaller or larger? What about changing it's shape completely into a horse or something?

Basically, how far does a spren's reliance on people's perception go? And could a painter who's aware of this take advantage of it?

This is all leading to the biggest question which is could this be applied in combat somehow? Say a painter does this to a radiant's plate spren, could that create an opening in the armor? It's probably too invested but this is the only combat application I could think of. 

What do you guys think? 

 

[alder24]

16 hours ago, Elite01 said:

Alright, so I have been trying to think of ways that a painter's skillset could be useful in the wider cosmere. They no longer have nightmares to defend against so there aren't any super obvious answers. 

We know that spren on Roshar will change based on your perception if only slightly. I think in the first book there's a study where a flame spren will stay the exact height if you write down the measurements. So my question is how far does this go? 

If there was a flame spren and I started to do the same process used to mold nightmares (which is more a mental technique than a type of magic), could I change it's shape? Either make it smaller or larger? What about changing it's shape completely into a horse or something?

Basically, how far does a spren's reliance on people's perception go? And could a painter who's aware of this take advantage of it?

This is all leading to the biggest question which is could this be applied in combat somehow? Say a painter does this to a radiant's plate spren, could that create an opening in the armor? It's probably too invested but this is the only combat application I could think of. 

What do you guys think? 

No, at least not to the same degree as you could do with Nightmares. Maybe slight alterations to their form, like height, width etc, just what measuring them do, but that's it. First off, Nightmares aren't Spren, they are Cognitive Shadows like Heralds or Fused. Cognitive Shadows are susceptible to people's perception, but that's visible usually over longer periods of time. Secondly, Spren on Roshar have an oversight of three, active Shards, there is no Shard on Komashi anymore, and that's partially why they are so easy to mold. Nightmares have something else going on - they lack Identity and that's most likely why they are so easily shaped by painters. And you definitely can't affect a physical form of a Spren, they are made out of god metal, that's a different state entirely. Yumi ch 39:

Quote

This machine immediately began feeding on them, destroying their bodies and harvesting their Investiture. The result was the shroud, sprayed into the air, left to rain down and blanket the land. A dark miasma literally crafted from the dead, everyone’s Identities evaporated and transformed into this dark force. Imagine it like…the tar that decomposed bodies sometimes turn into over many years of incredible pressure. The shroud is that, except souls, left as refuse from the machine’s initial activation.

 

Spoiler

ArgentSun

The way Painter transforms nightmares into other things is reminiscent of the way spren are affected by perception - only much more extreme. Is perception (and the way the world is set up) the only important factor here, or is Painter using Investiture too somehow?

Brandon Sanderson

What's going on here is not Painter using Investiture really. It's the fact that the nightmares have less control over them from another source. Spren have an oversight from Honor, Cultivation, and Odium, and this is kind of leaving them less at the whims of other people's perception. The nightmares do not have that. I'm not going to say they don't have it at all, but Painter is not using Investiture, but the nightmares are specifically more susceptible to what's going on. So for instance, a good way to answer this is if he went and did this for a spren he would not have the same level of power.

Secret Project #3 Reveal and Livestream (March 22, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Spren are reflections of how people in the Physical Realm see things. So if you have a Cognitive Shadow, would their personality change based on what people in the Physical Realm see them as?

Brandon Sanderson

The short answer is, not as much as you're worried about, no more than we tend to change based on what people say to us and how we interact with the people around us.

The long answer is, over a long period of time, it can happen. And it's gonna depend on a number of factors. But we're talking a matter of centuries not years. The same sort of thing you see happening to Vessels of Shards can happen to Cognitive Shadows.

So, the long answer is yes, but it's not an immediate worry. It's not like people start thinking of you and it shifts you because your perception of yourself is enough strong usually that it rebuffs these sorts of things, being self-aware does that. And a lot of the influence to spren and things like that happen during kind of formative not-quite-self-aware times, if that makes sense.

If you were to become a Cognitive Shadow right now, it wouldn't be a major concern, but in a thousand years, you may look back and say "wow, I was shaped by public perception in ways that I wasn't expecting".

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 9/22/2023 at 2:43 PM, Elite01 said:

Alright, so I have been trying to think of ways that a painter's skillset could be useful in the wider cosmere. They no longer have nightmares to defend against so there aren't any super obvious answers. 

We know that spren on Roshar will change based on your perception if only slightly. I think in the first book there's a study where a flame spren will stay the exact height if you write down the measurements. So my question is how far does this go? 

If there was a flame spren and I started to do the same process used to mold nightmares (which is more a mental technique than a type of magic), could I change it's shape? Either make it smaller or larger? What about changing it's shape completely into a horse or something?

Basically, how far does a spren's reliance on people's perception go? And could a painter who's aware of this take advantage of it?

This is all leading to the biggest question which is could this be applied in combat somehow? Say a painter does this to a radiant's plate spren, could that create an opening in the armor? It's probably too invested but this is the only combat application I could think of. 

What do you guys think? 

As @alder24 mentioned, Spren aren't naturally going to be as susceptible to this kind of technique as the Nightmares were.

I think perhaps if you were to fiddle with the Spren by Hemalurgically excising its Identity and then painting it that you could alter it to a greater extent though. Maybe you could shape and condition them to become a dangerous ally for yourself, particularly if it were a highly Invested type of Spren or if you were in Shadesmar.

[Treamayne]

17 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I think perhaps if you were to fiddle with the Spren by Hemalurgically excising its Identity and then painting it that you could alter it to a greater extent though. Maybe you could shape and condition them to become a dangerous ally for yourself, particularly if it were a highly Invested type of Spren or if you were in Shadesmar.

To be fair, Trusk, isn't "use Hemalurgy" your answer to everything?

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

To be fair, Trusk, isn't "use Hemalurgy" your answer to everything?

Lol, basically 

But hey, it's by far one of the easiest magic systems to get ahold of if not the easiest, which makes its use very plausible. Plus, it can directly change even the most core aspects of pretty much anything pretty with a functioning Spiritweb pretty much any way to want, so there's that too.

[Treamayne]

31 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

But hey, it's by far one of the easiest magic systems to get ahold of if not the easiest, which makes its use very plausible. Plus, it can directly change even the most core aspects of pretty much anything pretty with a functioning Spiritweb pretty much any way to want, so there's that too.

And it only costs your life, soul and sense of self (with few distinct exceptions).SP4 Spoiler

Spoiler

Much like the similar mechanics of the Cinderhearts and how they warp the body around them to continue functioning after impaling the chest - and cause the Constructs Charred to lose control of their emotions, become violent and be controlled from somebody else . . . 

Edit: Sorry - mistracked which spoiler section was which

Edited October 5, 2023 by Treamayne

[Trusk'our he/him]

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

And it only costs your life, soul and sense of self (with few distinct exceptions).

Spoiler

Much like the similar mechanics of the Cinderhearts and how they warp the body around them to continue functioning after imapling the chest - and cause the Constructs Charred to lose control of their emotions, become violent and be controlled from somebody else . .

. 

Meh, there are a few kinks in the system to work out, but that's the fun part.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

29 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

SP 4:

Spoiler

Much like the similar mechanics of the Cinderhearts and how they warp the body around them to continue functioning after impaling the chest - and cause the Constructs Charred to lose control of their emotions, become violent and be controlled from somebody else . . . 

Cough Cough, this is only Yumi section, not Sunlit Man.

Edit: @Trusk'our could you edit your post and hide Treamayne's quote in a spoiler box too?

Edited October 5, 2023 by alder24

[Treamayne]

23 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Cough Cough, this is only Yumi section, not Sunlit Man.

Edit: @Trusk'our could you edit your post and hide Treamayne's quote in a spoiler box too?

So very sorry I screwed that up. With my luck, you have not yet read it either.

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

So very sorry I screwed that up. With my luck, you have not yet read it either.

Nah, I've read that much in preview chapters. It's fine.