Long Game 7: The Annealing of Luthadel

[Wyrmhero he/him]

it's day one, discussion was stalling, I did what I believed to be necessary to continue the conversation... In this game, almost all of the roles have major uses (not so much pewter), and I don't think that we actually want a day 1 kill... Unless you truly believe I am skaa. Give me a day to get some sleep (I'm running on almost none) and I'll be a better player

GM? Can vote changers change votes to or from nobody?

 

Misread that. For some reason my mind combined 'vote changers' to 'voters', and I was thinking 'why would Ashiok ask that? Of course you can change votes if you haven't voted before, or vote for no-one. How else would you place your first vote?'

 

I'll have to get back on you on that, just need to check how it was done in previous games.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Wyrmhero

[A Joe in the Bush]

Mesist removed the beaten-up, stetson-style hat from his head and turned it over in his hands. 

"What's wrong with it? Seems to be in decent care, as far as I can tell," he said with barely a glance towards Cadri.

 

"Sure, it's seen some wear, but that's what happens when you actually do something for a living; not that I suspect you know much about that."

 

As he replaced his hat, he scanned the room. He tried to catch everyone's eye. 

 

"Things seem a mighty touchy in here. That's understandable, what with things like murder and spies and such around. Now we got ourselves a good start on a lynch mob already. 

"Now, that ain't a reason for guilt. It just is what it is and I'd think that if the Skaa can pretend to be us so well as to be next in line for old Heron House here, then they probably don't have much to do with it. 

"That's why I'm thinking that Tormander needs to be watched a bit closer. He ain't given us much as far as reasoning and he's been mighty silent other than to change his mind (without explanation, I might add). 

"So what say you, Hyrun?"

 

Panda actually started making sense for once. So I had to retract my Vote. (Though honestly, it seems more suspicious that's he's playing Logically.)

[Theorymaker he/him]

"Yes, I will sit down, thank you," Sylinia said before sitting. "Do you think we should invite Lord Erikell over here too? He also seems to be bored writing on his tablecloth."

[Tulir he/him]

Another Vote Tally

 

Fien (1): Mesist, Cadri
Alden (0): Fain
Mesist (0): Tonul 
Fain (0): Fien
Sylinia (1): Mailu
Lord Heron (0): Jain
Ash (3): Ash, Fien, Jain, Mailu
Jain (0): Hyrun, Hadrian
Kalden (1): Tonul
Hadrian? (0): Kas.

Mailu (0): Sylina

Jae (1): Mailu, Alden

Cadri (0): Racine

Wandrin (1): Cat, Tonul

Cat (0): Kaldin

Hyrun (1): Mesist

 

Because Kaldin posted, I will retract my vote for Kalden and vote for the only other inactive, because he has been on.  Wandrin, do you have anything to add?

 

Edit:  Look at luckat's I still need to work on my Listmaking it appears

Another color problem.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Tulir

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Blue: You missed my vote for Jain. I hold to that decision because he still hasn't given us any information that we can use.

[Tulir he/him]

Apologies, that is now fixed

[luckat she/her]

@Tonul
Cadri voted for Mesist, not Fien, and a few of your vote totals haven't been updated.
 
By the way, here is a list of the people that have current votes on them. Normally I prefer to look at all of the votes that have happened, but since it's day 1, that's a little hard to look at to see who is currently ahead in votes.

Ashette (3): Ashette, Fien, Jain, Mailu
Wandrin (2): Cat, Tonul
Mesist (1): Tonul, Cadri
Jain (1): Hyrun, Hadrian
Jae (1): Mailu, Alden
Hyrun (1): Mesist
 
Also, it looks like New One is on the community index every half hour, on the dot, so I don't know what he's doing. He's posted elsewhere within the last day, but I don't know if he's looking at this game at all.

[Renegade he/him]

Okay, time to talk about voting shenanigans, because I've come up with a few things that I feel are important about this game's votes. First of all, there’s no way we can guarantee getting a no-lynch today (or any day, really), if any of you feel like we should do so.  We could in the past few games, with little/no vote-blocking roles, but in this game, I’d imagine that we have somewhere around 4-5 soothers/rioters (if the roles were distributed evenly, and that’s not counting Mistborn), as well as a kandra.  So votes are almost certainly going to end up being very skewed by the end of the cycle.  However, if we plan our votes out well enough, we might be able to use this to our advantage and start discerning which skaa and Houses have access to vote-altering abilities.

 

Now, the problem I see here with these vote-changing roles: unlike the Nobles, the skaa players have access to two “allied” teams: the skaa, and the House they’re in.  So if it comes down to a close lynch, since each skaa will be part of two groups, they will have a greater chance of garnering vote-support (either through actual votes or zinc/brass) and surviving.  I don’t really know how we can prevent this, other than going full-on bandwagon, which is a bad idea, unless we’re certain that player’s a skaa.  But what I’m saying is that, if it ends up being a close lynch (before vote-altering shenanigans/kandra), we need to see where those votes go.

 

Also, I'd like to encourage people to voice their opinions about how we should go about playing the game.  RP is nice, but it's not going to help us find or lynch the skaa.  We need new ideas from everyone (sans skaa) so we can formulate a plan to succeed.  Not as individual Houses, but as the Noble faction.  If you have any thoughts of trying to win as an individual House, get those thoughts out of your head.  We only need to look back on MR 1 to see what that got us in.  If someone's trying to get it into your head to win solely as a House, rather than as the Nobles, KILL THEM!!!  Okay, maybe not, but don’t listen to them.  Believe me, it’s a bad idea.  The skaa are just as great a threat, if not more of one, in this game as in any previous game, and if we work as individual Houses, we’ll get little done.

[Wyrmhero he/him]

Day 1 will finish in just about 24 hours guys! Get those votes in!

 

Also, with regards to Zinc and how it works... You can only Riot a person who has voted, and you must Riot them to another person. You cannot Riot another person's into a no vote, but you can target yourself with it and simply nullify your vote.

 

Oh, and if anyone has any lynch/night death requests, feel free to send them in.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Wyrmhero

[Tulir he/him]

Day 1 will finish in just about 24 hours guys! Get those votes in!

 

Also, with regards to Zinc and how it works... You can only Riot a person who has voted, and you must Riot them to another person. You cannot Riot something into a no vote.

Umm, doesn't it end in 1 hour?

 

Edit:  Saw the 3 day cycle length right now, assumed it was 2.  Sorry

Edited July 23, 2014 by Tulir

[A Joe in the Bush]

"Yes, I will sit down, thank you," Sylinia said before sitting. "Do you think we should invite Lord Erikell over here too? He also seems to be bored writing on his tablecloth."

 

"Well that depends on who Lord Erikell is." *Checks Player list, sees that it's Kasimir* "Yes, we could invite him over too I suppose. But First, I have a proposition for you. These Skaa, have infiltrated several of the houses. I would like for our houses to ally with eachother to Root out the Skaa, So I propose a Mutual Non-Agreesion Treaty, Till the Skaa are dead."

[Ashiok]

"I would accept that Treaty (if I survive the day). Everybody should post their acceptance of that treaty, and those who don't are probably skaa. Also, it's boring sitting alone, and I just finished another book. Anybody want to join me?" Ashette seemed to be talking to thin air, but surely somebody would hear her

[A Joe in the Bush]

Hmm, so Ashette is a Tin-eye, since they heard my Whispered conversation from halfway across the room.

 

 In the RP, I was still talking to Theorymaker. But anyone shoudl feel free to join on as well.

[Ashiok]

Or am I just RPing a tineye? For RPpurposes, I will be, but that doesn't mean that I am/am not a tineye...

Also, I never saw anything about whispering and/or my separation from your conversation, but oh well

Edited July 23, 2014 by Ashiok

[Lightsworn Panda he/him]

Hey, I did say I was going to be a non-erratic player in the sign-ups   

 

Ash, saying that you voted yourself to provoke conversation doesn't help. In fact, it contradicts your earlier argument of being erratic.

[Ashiok]

I began to contradict myself from lack of sleep. That problem has been fixed

[Araris Valerian he/him]

We have a guess of 8 houses in total, perhaps, and you guys may not agree with this, but if we could have people post House 1, House 2 and so forth such that you only posted a House # when nobody from your house had made such a post, once nobody was making a post like that we would have a total count for the number of houses, without either side, skaa or noble, having gained any redundant information.

If that was poorly worded; I'm in House 1, if you are in a different house then post House 2 until a single member from each house has added to the count. This does NOT benefit the nobles over the skaa, so there is no reason for anyone to sabotage this.

House1

[Ashiok]

That lets everybody know who is in which great house, which we don't want to do b/c the skaa could easily take out a great house

[Araris Valerian he/him]

I wasn't asking for anyone to reveal WHAT house they are in. Only that they are in a house nobody in the count has already been in. I don't see how that would reveal the entirety of any great houses' members or even a single one of them. The skaa can already kill several of the High Lords simply because their identies have been revealed.

[A Joe in the Bush]

Here Ashiok, We have 1 person from each house number their house. Araris Chose 1. No one else from his house will take a Number.

 

And While I like this plan, I don't see how it helps us that much. We already know there's 8 houses. Math has proven that.

[twelfthrootoftwo]

If the known house lords don't participate, I think the only sensitive information that is revealed is that none of the posters are in the same house. So we need to decide whether revealing that information is worth the absolute certainty of number of houses.

Personally, I agree with Joe. We have a pretty good assessment of how many houses there are; we don't stand to gain much.

Edit: blue

Edited July 23, 2014 by twelfthrootoftwo

[Theorymaker he/him]

"A Mutual Non-Aggression Treaty," Sylinia repeated. "That might be possible, but I'm afraid that you should let the House Leaders deal with it." Edit: Happy Frog tune in on you House Doc.-Theory

 

If we really want to be doing treaties the House Leaders should be talking to each other about them. Also if Minor Houses want treaties they could discuss this publicly, but I would rather advise them to set up Tineye PMs with those they want treaties with.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Theorymaker

[Aonar he/him]

I think I get where you're going with this, Araris, and It's a far better plan than Jaelre's was (although still not perfect), but I don't think it's necessary to begin with.

 

We know:

 

Houses Tuy and Elariel have three players, as Lesser Great Houses. 

 

Houses Seeris and Urbain have four players, as Great Houses.

 

Unknown Houses will have two players as Lesser Houses.

 

2(4)+2(3)+X2=22

 

X, in this case must equal 4, making it eight Houses in total. As I see it, this is fact. You can't cheat math.

 

So, we really don't gain anything from telling one person from each House. The Skaa don't really gain anything, but we don't get anything from it either. Other than the names of eight people who are probably not part of the same House of course, but really, how useful is that? 

 

 

Theory: That only works if said Minor House has a Tineye. There's two-three Tineyes, but almost two thirds of the players are in the Greater Houses... At absolute best, (an unlikely scenario) there would still be one Minor House sans-Tineye. Honestly, the very idea of a non-RP treaty is a touch silly; we should all be focusing on our primary objective (removing the Eliminators) right now anyway, and anyone who says otherwise is probably a Skaa.  

Edited July 24, 2014 by AonarFaileas

[Shivertongue he/him]

Theory: That only works if said Minor House has a Tineye. There's two-three Tineyes, but almost two thirds of the players are in the Greater Houses... At absolute best, (an unlikely scenario) there would still be one Minor House sans-Tineye. Honestly, the very idea of a non-RP treaty is a touch silly; we should all be focusing on our primary objective (removing the Eliminators) right now anyway, and anyone who says otherwise is probably a Skaa.  

 

Agreed. There is the secondary objective to being the most populous House at the end of the game, but the skaa are trying to kill us all. We can worry about who's the strongest after the dust has settled and the skaa are slain. I'll basically consider the whole thing a victory if we manage to get them all... and I get to live for once.

[Kasimir he/him]

"My Lord?" the steward waited until Kassel had glanced up and nodded, giving him permission to continue. "Lady Seeris and Lord Tormander extend their invitation to join them at their table." The steward frowned down at the smudged tablecloth, and Kassel found himself sheepishly trying to hide his scrawlings with his hand, further smudging ink everywhere.

"I understand," he said. "Please tell the esteemed Lord and Lady that I will be joining them shortly."

He frowned. What could it be?

First, I agree with everyone else that we don't stand to gain much from your plan, Araris. We've had GM confirmation of the House membership numbers, and from there, we can easily work out concrete House numbers. The mathematics doesn't lie In fact, the worry is that it serves to easily identify and put members of Lesser Houses at risk, given there's only two of them. (Assuming we are even being truthful.) My suspicion is that the skaa will be aiming primarily for unpenetrated Houses, particularly unpenetrated Great Houses. Here's my reasoning.

There are only three in-game (exluding good ol' reasoning) ways of determining if someone is skaa.
1. Lynching them. (Very terminal, very permanent.)
2. Obligation. Use it right, and you'll be able to get an answer of the player's allegiances.
3. Genealogy.

If I were a Great House Lord, I wouldn't speak of my powers in case my House was skaa-penetrated. No point in making it easier for them. But in which case, I think it makes unpenetrated Great Houses a particular threat. If the skaa want to deny us effectiveness in having those powers used, the first thing would be to take down the unpenetrated Great Houses (if any) for fear of the fact they hold those powers, and to flood the other Houses with powers and to bring them into skaa-controlled Houses, where they stand a better chance of being misdirected or destroyed.

Note: There are many other ways the skaa could play this. I'm just bringing up a possibility. But I just brought this up because I'd like to mention that even in this picture, unpenetrated Lesser Houses do suffer quite a risk, whether from skaa or their fellow nobles.

Which brings me to my second point. Maybe let's go for the elephant in the room.

I absolutely agree: we need to focus on finding and removing the skaa. At the same time, given this metagame, I can understand why we're all still being somewhat cagey. No offense, but the last time I got an alliance together to work against the 17S, Maili broke it because he wanted his faction to win. I can understand his position. Awes was willing to use Wilson to whittle down the Idrians before the colossal backstabs happened. And Meta noted that if we'd offered to make him King of Alethkar, he would've been greatly tempted to work with the Ghostbloods.

It's by no means a condemnation. Frankly, all I care about is us finding and removing the skaa. And preferably, I'd like to do so effectively without the worry of anyone making deals with the skaa or doing all sorts of things to get their House ahead which could mess with us trying to find the skaa and actually take them out. The knowledge that this has happened in factional games (or at least games with a factional win condition, even if secondary) is going to make everyone especially wary about putting themselves on the line.

To be perfectly honest, I think treaties, RP or otherwise, are meaningless. You have no reason to believe the other person will honour them, and if you do have reason, then you never needed the treaty to begin with. But if it gives people the psychological comfort we need to get to work and actually focus on finding the skaa among us, who am I to gainsay that?

Edited July 24, 2014 by Kasimir