evidence for time dilatation.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

@Firesong asked whether the thing in Canticle's core had so much Investiture that it is turning it into gravity.

Considering this I think we have evidence it has so much Investiture that it is slowing down time

1. Sigzil wondered how the Night Brigade got there so quickly. Answer: They didn't. His time had been running more slowly.
2. Sigzil wondered why somebody would travel with an outdated book. Answer: He wasn't. When he arrived, to him the book was current. Outside Canticle time just passed so much faster that it has become outdated.

[Gavtyven he/him]

Oh that's interesting, definitely something to ask Brandon at the next Q&A where Sunlit Man spoilers are allowed

[Tbug33]

I like this idea a lot. I think it sheds some light on something I found a bit confusing while reading - how long it takes for the Night Brigade to find Nomad/how long he stays on each planet. There's been a lot of discussion on timeline, but I think we can assume that it's been anywhere between 40-100 years since Noman began worldhopping. However, he says he's only been to tens of planets? That seems incredibly low to me. Especially given how quickly the Brigade found him this time. It indicates that he spent a while on each planet, perhaps a year at a time. That being said, Nomad does seem to want to move on as quickly as possible (given his talks with Aux at the beginning of the book) and that doesn't seem to be congruent with being on these planets for months or even years before leaving (however, it is possible that it takes that amount of time on certain planets to attain enough BEUs). But, it would makes sense that it has actually been months outside the planet's gravity, and that's why he was only able to spend a little amount of time there.

[Firesong she/her]

The thing is, tens could mean anything, it could even mean over a hundred. Rosharans just like dividing things up into tens. 

[therunner he/him]

That makes a lot of sense. Well spotted!

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

The thing is, tens could mean anything, it could even mean over a hundred. Rosharans just like dividing things up into tens. 

Still too low. Give him a hundred planets and a month on each and he has been on the run for 8 years.

[Firesong she/her]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

Still too low. Give him a hundred planets and a month on each and he has been on the run for 8 years.

Another thing, he probably stays on some larger planets for longer. Canticle is very small, and has very few settlements, so he would be easier to track. I also feel that he might just not know how many planets he has been to. So just defaults to tens as like, no matter how many he has been to, tens would be technically correct. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

5 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Another thing, he probably stays on some larger planets for longer. Canticle is very small, and has very few settlements, so he would be easier to track. I also feel that he might just not know how many planets he has been to. So just defaults to tens as like, no matter how many he has been to, tens would be technically correct. 

We are entering a territory where we would have to know how the tracking works. There must be some technological component, because he does not tell anybody where he will go, for the simple reason that he does not know himself. And we have no idea how well that mechanism works.

[Serack he/him]

Didn't the sample chapters or a WoB imply that Nomad has visited more cosmere planets than Hoid by the time of The Sunlit Man?

Edit:  I couldn't remember it in my read of the book itself, but it's right there, Hoid says he blieves Nomad seen more of the cosmere than he has.  When I first read that I took it to mean that during his nomadic run from the Night Brigade he had visited way more planets than Hoid, our prime planet hopper who had been doing it for millennia before he got started.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Serack

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Firesong said:

The thing is, tens could mean anything, it could even mean over a hundred. Rosharans just like dividing things up into tens. 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Still too low. Give him a hundred planets and a month on each and he has been on the run for 8 years.

Well, I don't recall the number of planets visited equated to the number of planets spent on-the-run. He could have visited a number of places, spending multiple years each before the event recounted in Ch 28 where he spoke to the NB without realizing they would start hunting him. If they have been using interstellar tech to hunt him down since that event, he's likely only been on-the-run for a small percentage of the time since he left Roshar. 

8 minutes ago, Serack said:

Didn't the sample chapters or a WoB imply that Nomad has visited more cosmere planets than Hoid by the time of The Sunlit Man?

Wit says it in Ch 10, but in a way that may imply he's not necessarly being truthful. 

Spoiler

Yet…I’d guess that, by now, you’ve seen more of the cosmere than I have.

Prevarication at its finest

[Tbug33]

Another idea is that he’s jumped more times than planets he’s visited. We’re not sure of how many planets are in the Cosmere to think about it statistically, but he could have jumped hundreds of times, but only visited “tens” of planets.

[Firesong she/her]

57 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Well, I don't recall the number of planets visited equated to the number of planets spent on-the-run. He could have visited a number of places, spending multiple years each before the event recounted in Ch 28 where he spoke to the NB without realizing they would start hunting him. If they have been using interstellar tech to hunt him down since that event, he's likely only been on-the-run for a small percentage of the time since he left Roshar. 

Wit says it in Ch 10, but in a way that may imply he's not necessarly being truthful. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Yet…I’d guess that, by now, you’ve seen more of the cosmere than I have.

Prevarication at its finest

The way I saw what he meant, is Sigzil has been to more planets, but hasn't necessarily seen more, as he doesn't stay as long as Hoid. But he is also able to go to many planets that Hoid can't go to or would have no desire to go to. Due to how Skips work. 

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

The way I saw what he meant, is Sigzil has been to more planets, but hasn't necessarily seen more, as he doesn't stay as long as Hoid. But he is also able to go to many planets that Hoid can't go to or would have no desire to go to. Due to how Skips work. 

That's assuming that Skips are not how Hoid has also been travelling (at least some of the time):

Spoiler

Questioner

I know Hoid jumps around and meets various people that are very influential in the various books. I'm curious as to how he knows who he needs to meet, how's he lead to them.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a RAFO, but it is a question you're supposed to be asking-- You know what a RAFO is?

Questioner

No.

Brandon Sanderson

It means Read and Find Out. If you watch at the end of this book he's not always certain why he needs to be where he needs to be. So there is some measure-- something is going on here but it is not made clear yet and I don't want to clear it up with you quite yet.

As I mentioned elsewhere:

5 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I posit that Skipping is like "Skip toward <known location>" and you go there (but not necessarily a specific coordinate "there") - but when skipping with Intent (running away in this instance) and no Command of Destination - the resulting Skip is more random (and possibly influnced by SR Connection - the same way Shallan drew Ash before meeting her) the Skip takes you somewhere you will need to be without you knowing what that Connection will become.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

7 hours ago, Tbug33 said:

Another idea is that he’s jumped more times than planets he’s visited. We’re not sure of how many planets are in the Cosmere to think about it statistically, but he could have jumped hundreds of times, but only visited “tens” of planets.

Not if you want him visiting two new planets, Canticle and the Sho Del world, in a row with any reasonable likelihood.

[danex he/him]

interesting idea, but I think the conversation with Hoid largely debunks it. Hoid was off world, he wouldn’t have been affected by the time dilation, meaning that conversation wouldn’t have been possible.

you could argue that weird connection things were happening that made hoid also slow down, but that also doesn’t track. hoid only has connection to sig, and at this point Sig doesn’t have any sort of connection to the planet other than linguistic, so it couldn’t be transferring via that chain. so if there was any sort of time dilation happening, it would have to be via said gravitation distortion alone, no connection shenanigans, which again, would mean hoid wouldn’t be affected. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

16 minutes ago, dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex said:

interesting idea, but I think the conversation with Hoid largely debunks it. Hoid was off world, he wouldn’t have been affected by the time dilation, meaning that conversation wouldn’t have been possible.

you could argue that weird connection things were happening that made hoid also slow down, but that also doesn’t track. hoid only has connection to sig, and at this point Sig doesn’t have any sort of connection to the planet other than linguistic, so it couldn’t be transferring via that chain. so if there was any sort of time dilation happening, it would have to be via said gravitation distortion alone, no connection shenanigans, which again, would mean hoid wouldn’t be affected. 

1. Hoid is a Mistborn and understands the effects of Investiture to a high degree. If he needs to slow down the flow of time for himself, all it takes are a few flakes of metal.
2. We are talking about FTL here. I am reluctant to make any conclusions about time from that.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

There is one very strong problem with this theory.

Offworlders would notice it. Night Brigade soldiers would know if there is some abnormal time dilatation during comunications with their ship. And Scadrians would notice this too, especially if they have satelites around planet, what they may have.

[Steelsight he/him]

53 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

There is one very strong problem with this theory.

Offworlders would notice it. Night Brigade soldiers would know if there is some abnormal time dilatation during comunications with their ship. And Scadrians would notice this too, especially if they have satelites around planet, what they may have.

We don't know how far the time dilatation extends around the planet, so whatever satelites the Scadrians may have or soldiers communicating with the Night Brigade ship may still get caught up in it.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

32 minutes ago, Steelsight said:

We don't know how far the time dilatation extends around the planet, so whatever satelites the Scadrians may have or soldiers communicating with the Night Brigade ship may still get caught up in it.

No way. We here on Earth need to compensate already in our satelites time dilatation, even so small. If Canticle have larger (what this topic sugests) Scadrians and Night Brigade needet to adjust their technology accordingly and it would be seen.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Bzhydack

[Steelsight he/him]

19 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

No way. We here on Earth need to compensate already in our satelites time dilatation, even so small. If Canticle have larger (what this topic sugests) Scadrians and Night Brigade needet to adjust their technology accordingly and it would be seen.

Huh. I'm not a physicist/astrophysicist so I'll have to take you at your word. I guess this theory can't be true without some serious Cosmere physics shenanigans.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

15 minutes ago, Steelsight said:

Huh. I'm not a physicist/astrophysicist so I'll have to take you at your word. I guess this theory can't be true without some serious Cosmere physics shenanigans.

Im not specialist either, I simply know that.

[king of nowhere]

I think the history of canticle mostly disproves that notion, though - or at least proves it to be minor.

we know that those threnodites came to canticle after the evil appeared. we don't seem to have strict chronology for when it appeared, but it was much after the shattering. centuries, not millennia, before the current timeline.

the beaconites know of threnody because of the chorus, but they say it's been long enough that they have no oral memory of it. so, many generations. centuries.

so, you see the problem. the threnodites left their planet no more than a millennia ago, and they spent no less than two centuries on canticle. if your theory was right and nomad/sigzil spent his day on canticle while months passed on the outside, then the threnodites should have felt they were on the planet by a generation at most, probably less. instead, we could rule out any time dilation effect greater than 5 to 1. this, in turn, mostly removes time dilation as an explanation for why the night brigade came so quickly.

my pet theory is that they track him by reading some kind of residue where he skips to the next planet. last planet they were very close, and he had to skip in an emergency. but the brigade was right after him, and they could quickly calculate his new destination, and get there as fast as their spaceship could travel. normally, nomad could lose himself in a planet, and the brigade would spend months to find him.

also, while he has visited tens of planets (how many are there in the cosmere anyway?) nothing forbids him from having visited the same planet multiple times.

[Trizee]

In the epilogue Zellion is off planet, and counts heartbeats to know when to summon Aux back from protecting the beaconites. If time on Canticle were dilated, Zellion's count would be totally off and he would have exposed the beaconites to the sun...

Edited October 5, 2023 by Trizee

[+Oltux72 he/him]

12 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

No way. We here on Earth need to compensate already in our satelites time dilatation, even so small. If Canticle have larger (what this topic sugests) Scadrians and Night Brigade needet to adjust their technology accordingly and it would be seen.

That is because gravity obeys the square of the distance rule. Investiture need not do that (note: that is not the whole reason you need to adjust in satellites. They are also affected by being in motion as special relativity acts. But that part is unaffected. They expect it and will still see it.)

8 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

so, you see the problem. the threnodites left their planet no more than a millennia ago, and they spent no less than two centuries on canticle. if your theory was right and nomad/sigzil spent his day on canticle while months passed on the outside, then the threnodites should have felt they were on the planet by a generation at most, probably less. instead, we could rule out any time dilation effect greater than 5 to 1. this, in turn, mostly removes time dilation as an explanation for why the night brigade came so quickly.

Yes. You cannot have orders of magnitude here. But even an effect like 1:3 is important.

1 hour ago, Trizee said:

In the epilogue Zellion is off planet, and counts heartbeats to know when to summon Aux back from protecting the beaconites. If time on Canticle were dilated, Zellion's count would be totally off and he would have exposed the beaconites to the sun...

50:50 chance. It little worse because of the storm and you needing time to get away.

But yes, you cannot get orders of magnitude of dilatation. They would have simply died of suffocation in the shelter.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

That is because gravity obeys the square of the distance rule. Investiture need not do that (note: that is not the whole reason you need to adjust in satellites. They are also affected by being in motion as special relativity acts. But that part is unaffected. They expect it and will still see it.)

Doesnt matter. Still they need to calculate this potential time dilatation, regardles of origin.