Why aren’t there new Yoki-Hijo?

[Ancient Elantrian Elan/Elan/Elan/Elan/Elan]

So, at the end of the book Hoid says there was no need for more Yoki-Hijo. What I’m wondering is why there aren’t more of them being made. If 16 can exist, why don’t more start appearing? I find it kinda sad that we get these two new cool magic stuffs, and then both of them are basically completely destroyed by the end of the book. Any opinions/ideas?

[Frustration he/him]

Personally I don't understand the reasoning.

The Yoki-Hijo were necessary because no one else could bind the spirits no matter how skilled they were.

But apparently you can just use TV dramas.

Because.

[Ravenclawjedi42]

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Personally I don't understand the reasoning.

The Yoki-Hijo were necessary because no one else could bind the spirits no matter how skilled they were.

But apparently you can just use TV dramas.

Because.

I think it was more curiosity as to why no new yoki-hijo were born. I think it has something to do with the Father Machine, as no new ones were born after its activation.

[Authorspren]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Personally I don't understand the reasoning.

The Yoki-Hijo were necessary because no one else could bind the spirits no matter how skilled they were.

But apparently you can just use TV dramas.

Because.

I actually don't think Yoki-Hijo are necessary to bind spirits. The machine was able to do it as well. I think that the Yoki-Hijo just had a much, much easier time binding spirits because they were so highly Invested and were raised from birth stacking rocks. Because spirits are so difficult to attract, and because rock stacking is a very difficult art, Yoki-Hijo eventually just became the only way their culture knew how to attract spirits.

I also think that rock stacking was the only method of art used at the time simply for convenience. Paint costs money and might not be available in small villages. Other problems would arise with other forms of art because of supply issues. The one thing universally present throughout the kingdom was rocks. The fact that stacks of rocks really can't be used for many things other than art probably helps.

However, spirits can be attracted to any form of art so long as it's sufficiently artistic. If TV dramas are sufficiently artistic, they'll attract spirits. Per WOB, the only reason painting does not attract spirits because the art of painting was commodified, which minimized its artistry. Perhaps now that the job of nightmare painter is no longer needed, painting can become a proper art again, which would probably cause it to begin attracting spirits.

One objection to this theory is that TV dramas are also made primarily for business purposes. My only explanation is that maybe there's still enough creativity left for it to count as art, since TV dramas don't need to exist. Nightmare painting, on the other hand, very much did need to exist and was more necessity than art.

[Duxredux he/him]

10 hours ago, Ancient Elantrian said:

So, at the end of the book Hoid says there was no need for more Yoki-Hijo. What I’m wondering is why there aren’t more of them being made. If 16 can exist, why don’t more start appearing? I find it kinda sad that we get these two new cool magic stuffs, and then both of them are basically completely destroyed by the end of the book. Any opinions/ideas?

I'll break down a few assumptions being made within the context of the book.

1. Yumi was "chosen" to become a yoki-hijo by an auspicious star seen at her birth. The question remains on if this has actual Realmatic significance or is the equivalent of the lottery by selecting which ever girl was born closest to the start sighting to become the next yoki-hijo.
2. Undeniably yoki-hijo have power and are highly Invested. Something is causing them to gain tremendous amounts of Investiture likely tied to the Shard Virtuosity. My take is that the rituals and strictures followed by the yoki-hijo do indeed allow them to gather Investiture and become more powerful to draw and bind entities of Investiture, the hijo. Now not every yoki-hijo has to follow the patterns that Liyun had Yumi follow so strictly to gain power, but I think there's decent evidence to point towards Yumi as the strongest of all the yoki-hijo not just in rock-stacking but in sheer Investiture.
3. When comparing the smaller rock stacking machine to Yumi's binding, yes, the rock stacking machine did work but the objects formed started to degrade with days or weeks while the objects formed by Yumi lasted far far longer. Again, evidence that while the yoki-hijo aren't strictly necessary to bind spirits, for the ancient society of Komashi they were almost certainly the most reliable source up until the Father Machine ate nearly everyone's souls and gained access to a similarly huge amount of Investiture
   1. I think a comparison the Awakening isn't out of the question. At the start of Warbreaker, Vasher has to use a lot of work arounds to get the Awakening to do the job well. He needs to carefully shape the straw into little men and use his own hair to get the Breath to stick to the straw to work the small amount of Investiture he had. Give him a lot of Investiture and he can brute force the process without needing to worry about the finer details even though those finer details could still make his Awakening more powerful and efficient. Continue up the Heightenings to Instinctive Awakening and Command Breaking. Instinctive Awakening has to do with knowing what Commands to use and being able to properly visualize the Command - and this likely ties to how strong the Command is and how hard the Command is to break as seen with Lightsong's priests work to break Vasher's squirrel. 
   2. It wouldn't surprise me if the yoki-hijo with their tremendous amount of Investiture gain the ability to impose incredibly strong Commands on the spirits to have them retain the various tools and objects for a very long time, and what Yumi did in defeating the Father Machine looked like Command Breaking on a gigantic scale. But then why do the yoki-hijo not draw the spirits that are currently serving as lifters or fliers in each town they visit? Probably Intent on the part of the yoki-hijo. The spirits that escaped to Yumi were probably able to do so because they wanted to escape and be drawn to Yumi.
4. So why would no more yoki-hijo be created? I think they almost certainly could, and perhaps in a future day when the rest of the Cosmere comes knocking on Komashi's door Yumi will have to train yoki-hijo to be magical girl fighters to defend Komashi. With all of the other tropes Brandon borrowed from Japanese anime, this isn't even a stretch, but certainly isn't guaranteed. Right now though, the yoki-hijo aren't vital to the infrastructure of Komashi, so I'd assume that there aren't any girls living the ritualistic life of the yoki-hijo to gain sufficient Investiture to really qualify as a yoki-hijo. The Sunlit Man spoilers:
   1. Spoiler

      There was a question on how hard spren, hijo, Nightmares, and Shades were to comparatively manipulate. Maybe the Night Brigade will come visit Komashi and will meet their match against magical girls in overly ornate outfits. There probably won't be a transformation sequence though.
      
      Oh no. Not unless they actually armor themselves with hijo transformed into their clothing. *face palm* and *face desk*. Invested clothing to resist the Shades is actually reasonable.

       

One option for the TV dramas drawing the hijo is that they aren't actually drawn to the TV but to the performers in their film studios. It would be kind of odd if they were drawn to the very thing that they were powering and introduces a small chicken - egg problem.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Duxredux

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Ancient Elantrian said:

So, at the end of the book Hoid says there was no need for more Yoki-Hijo. What I’m wondering is why there aren’t more of them being made. If 16 can exist, why don’t more start appearing? I find it kinda sad that we get these two new cool magic stuffs, and then both of them are basically completely destroyed by the end of the book. Any opinions/ideas?

It's because Yoki-Hijo are chosen by Spirits, blessed by them, Invested and Connected by and to them in some way, and now Spirits simply don't need them, as TV dramas are good enough for them, and some have chosen to become hion permanently. Society itself has no need for Yoki-Hijo as well, no need for light, flying devices etc, only for hion, but this is provided because Spirits voluntarily have chosen to remain as hion. Nobody needs to convince them to become "useful" anymore. 

And I'm just saying - Nightmare Painting isn't invested art. It's just using perception and imaging to shape Cognitive Shadows, who on Komashi have no identity and no Shard presence, therefore there are very susceptible to perception.

[Frustration he/him]

8 hours ago, Authorspren said:

I actually don't think Yoki-Hijo are necessary to bind spirits. The machine was able to do it as well. I think that the Yoki-Hijo just had a much, much easier time binding spirits because they were so highly Invested and were raised from birth stacking rocks. Because spirits are so difficult to attract, and because rock stacking is a very difficult art, Yoki-Hijo eventually just became the only way their culture knew how to attract spirits.

The machine was also made from spirits so it was an artificial Yoki-Hijo in a sense.

 

And I just had a thought, if TV dramas could work why on earth did none of the spirits escape before Yumi?

[Duxredux he/him]

On 10/19/2023 at 8:20 AM, Frustration said:

The machine was also made from spirits so it was an artificial Yoki-Hijo in a sense.

 

And I just had a thought, if TV dramas could work why on earth did none of the spirits escape before Yumi?

My assumption is the relative strength needed to pull a spirit from the machine. A general analogy is the difference between taking over a Koloss as a powerful Soother compared to wresting a Koloss from the control of an Inquisitor or Ruin. The machine didn't draw the spirits because they were interested in rock stacking, somehow it drew them without their consent, against their will to imprison them, otherwise they would never have come to Yumi begging to be freed. What the yoki-hijo and the Machine did is probably a heavily Invested version of what any artist could do - with the caveat that huge amounts of Investiture let you break a lot of rules.

[teknopathetic he/him]

I wonder if we might start getting TV Writer Yoki Hijo. Perhaps the 16 most artistic people might start becoming invested.

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

I don't think that being born as a Yoki-Hijo is actually a special condition. It's just that people born under the right conditions got trained, and became highly Invested due to the whole summoning spirits thing.

But I could be wrong.

[Treamayne]

On 11/1/2023 at 9:49 AM, NerdyAarakocra said:

I don't think that being born as a Yoki-Hijo is actually a special condition. It's just that people born under the right conditions got trained, and became highly Invested due to the whole summoning spirits thing.

But I could be wrong.

The Yoki-Hijo are invested before beginning training, but they did gain investiture over time (but that was possibly due to the Shroud). A common theory is that they have a Splinter of Virtuosity (similar to a Returned's Divine breath), which is why their numbers were limited. 

Spoiler

Quote

Argent

If we are looking at very highly Invested beings, we have Yumi, and we are told that she is more Invested than Elantrians, more Invested than Returned. Let's compare Yumi, Elantrians, and Heralds. Who is most Invested, who is least Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Of those, probably Heralds... The thing is, the Heralds varied. How in tune and aligned they are with their oaths, their promise... It wasn't Oaths, but they did promise certain things when they became Heralds. It was pre Knights Radiants, it's not as formalized as Oaths. How in line with the power of Honor, how in line with the kind of natural Investiture of Roshar--which is separate from Honor, Cultivation and Odium--are they, how can they draw upon that. I will call them the least of the three though.

Argent

So Heralds on the bottom, and Yumi on top, and Elantrians in the middle?

Brandon Sanderson

Yumi on top, but Yumi's very close to an Elantrian. They're within the same conversation. And most of the yoki-hijo were traditionally in the past less, they've gained Investiture over time.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

Quote

Cheyenne Sedai

Could the yoki-hijo do other magical effects at some point, other than binding the spirits?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they definitely could.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Maybe there aren't any new one's because they haven't been born yet. 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Maybe there aren't any new one's because they haven't been born yet. 

The book in the epilogue said they don't need Yoki-Hijo anymore, Spirits simply don't have any reason to choose new ones:

Quote

Oh, and if you’re worried, the planet didn’t end up needing yoki-hijo to appease the spirits anymore. Turns out the things really, really like historical dramas.

 

[trav]

Spirits choose Yoki-Hoji

Yoki-Hijo attract spirits to grant wishes

 

Sounds kind of stupid and circular. I doubt "the spirits" actually choose the Yoki-Hijo. More like they exist, get pointed out (by the spirits) and then selected.
There may be more Invested people now, but how would they know? They grow up that way and never even recognize they are different from anyone else.
The OG Yoki-Hijo are also dead and the actual process of creating them may not even exist anymore.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, trav said:

Spirits choose Yoki-Hoji

Yoki-Hijo attract spirits to grant wishes

Sounds kind of stupid and circular.

Yoki-Hijo don't grant Spirits' wishes, they grant people's wishes. Yoki-Hijo can attract and communicate with Spirits, they are the bridge between people and Spirits. People need Spirits to survive, Spirits don't need people, they like what people create. Being Yoki-Hijo is clearly an invested art, not available to everybody, and the book itself said multiple times that Yoki-Hijo are chosen (however it was done by biased Yumi and the people of Torio). That's not stupid and circular. Ch 35:

Quote

Painter forced his eyes open and grabbed his sack of rocks, collected in haste on his way to the shroud. He calmed his frantic breathing and started stacking, and each stone placed reminded him of her. Yumi would have been proud of the twelve-stone height he obtained, and the way he chose rocks of irregular size, looking to make not only a pile, but a tower.
The shroud didn’t move. Though it had bowed for her, it didn’t notice him. Painter was forced to admit the truth. Yumi had been special. Being yoki-hijo wasn’t merely about stacking rocks, but about the power the spirits had given her. He could do nothing to disrupt the shroud without being Connected to her, just as he could never have attracted spirits without being Connected to her.

 

[trav]

On 11/6/2023 at 3:01 PM, alder24 said:

Yoki-Hijo don't grant Spirits' wishes

You misunderstand.

If spirits are the ones that choose Yoki-hijo then why must Yoki-hijo perform anything to attract them. Yoki-hijo are chosen by something above spirits. By a Shard or its remnants. The process is not specified. Priests will point out the signs that someone is a Yoki-hijo. If there are no priests then who would read the signs and train the Yoki-hijo? Outside of her invested art Yumi was not aware that she was special. If no one introduced the current Yoki-hijo to the invested art then they would most likely never even notice that they are different from normal people.

We do not know whether or not Yoki-hijo exist anymore. If new ones exist. Or if the process required to even have Yoki-hijo exists anymore.
Having no need of them does not mean that there aren't any. The world moved on when Elantrians became powerless. They still existed. Returned were made even before a cult formed around them. There was never a need for Returned either.

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, trav said:

If spirits are the ones that choose Yoki-hijo then why must Yoki-hijo perform anything to attract them.

Because Spirits like art. They won't be following Yoki-Hijo like a flock of seagulls, waiting for her to command them. Simple. Spirits aren't there to serve humans, you need to attract them (maybe they exist primarily in CR and Yoki-Hijo pulls them into PR, maybe they are in the ground doing Spirit things and emerge as they are being attracted), please them and in return for the spectacle and the gift, they will serve people for a few years. Yoki-Hijo being invested and chosen by Spirit doesn't mean Spirits can't have a whim or can't do their own thing somewhere else. Not to mention Spirits are perceived as divine, thus it makes perfect sense that they would require you to gain their attention first - perception affects Splinters.

6 minutes ago, trav said:

Yoki-hijo are chosen by something above spirits. By a Shard or its remnants.

There is no proof for that and Virtuosity is Splintered, there is no proof that her remnants are somewhat active in such a way. Spirits are her Splinters so Spirits chosing Yoki-Hijo fits with your speculation.

7 minutes ago, trav said:

The process is not specified. Priests will point out the signs that someone is a Yoki-hijo. If there are no priests then who would read the signs and train the Yoki-hijo? Outside of her invested art Yumi was not aware that she was special. If no one introduced the current Yoki-hijo to the invested art then they would most likely never even notice that they are different from normal people.

That's possible but also Yoki-Hijo would still have this ability inside her spirit web. Training and having an invested art are two different things. 

13 minutes ago, trav said:

We do not know whether or not Yoki-hijo exist anymore. If new ones exist. Or if the process required to even have Yoki-hijo exists anymore.

Yumi exists, so theoretically Yoki-Hijo still exists  But this is true. They might be still being chosen but because they aren't needed, nobody trains them, thus they don't know they are Yoki-Hijo. It's likely that sooner or later they would realize they can attract Spirits or maybe have a talent for art, or can communicate with them, and they would realize what they are. I admit it's possible that they are still being made but they just aren't needed to appease the Spirits anymore.

However, if there was some kind of automated system for choosing Yoki-Hijo, why were there only 14 of them in the time of Yumi, not a full set of 16? It makes more sense if capricious Spirits decided that 14 is enough for whatever reason. Spirits are like Spren, there are similarities between spren deciding to bond Radiants and Spirits deciding to create Yoki-Hijo.

[Treamayne]

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

However, if there was some kind of automated system for choosing Yoki-Hijo, why were there only 14 of them in the time of Yumi, not a full set of 16? It makes more sense if capricious Spirits decided that 14 is enough for whatever reason. Spirits are like Spren, there are similarities between spren deciding to bond Radiants and Spirits deciding to create Yoki-Hijo.

Without going too far off-topic, I'd like to point out that we do not actually know there were only 14 YH when Father Machine was activated (YNP Ch 24):

Spoiler

“And how many yoki-hijo are there?” the scholar shouted back. “Sixteen at most! We currently have only fourteen. How long did the people of this town wait between visits of the yoki-hijo? Months? Years? These machines can be placed in every town and village, working all day.”

All we really know is that the Father Machine, through his puppet scholors, claims that there were only 14. It could have been that when the YH freed themselves from FM's control, two went to the Beyond before FM was able to set up the Prisons. FM would not want the YH to know it was possible for them to purposefully pass Beyond, so these may be lies perpetuated to continue the charade.

It's possible there were only 14, or 15 or the full 16. Unreliable narrator is still a thing to consider.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Without going too far off-topic, I'd like to point out that we do not actually know there were only 14 YH when Father Machine was activated (YNP Ch 24):

We do know that. ch 32:

Quote

“I could see that,” Design said, rolling her eyes as if they were supposed to understand why. “She’s Connected to you, obviously. I could see that without the device. And a few others. Then there are these thirteen odd lines…”
“Thirteen?” Yumi said, standing up from her stool.
“Yup!” Design said. “Connection lines are easy to see at times, but notoriously hard to read. I don’t know what these are Connected to. Didn’t look like family though. More a thematic Connection…”
“Yumi?” he asked.
“There are currently thirteen other yoki-hijo,” Yumi said. “Where? Where are they?”

ch 49:

Quote

The machine evaporated the population of Torio, feeding upon their power and spitting out the shroud as a byproduct. Well, as Yumi and Painter had both guessed (despite lacking all the information), there were some people the machine couldn’t harvest or control: the yoki-hijo.
They were superficially killed during the machine’s initial activation like everyone else. However, after a short time these fourteen souls pulled themselves free of the shroud and re-formed. They came back from the dead, refusing to be controlled.
All fourteen women were beings of incredible willpower. Highly Invested at birth by the spirits, they presented a legitimate threat to the machine. It could not harvest their energy and could not keep them contained in the shroud. The most the machine could do to them was siphon off a tiny bit of their memories.

This time it is Hoid who claims that Yoki-Hijo are invested at birth by the Spirits, which should settle earlier debate.

Edit: Before any of you say Hoid is an unreliable narrator:

Spoiler

SleepoPeepo

How is Hoid able to talk about events that he wasn’t present for in such great detail, including a person’s internal thoughts and emotions?

Brandon Sanderson

A combination of things. One, he was there for some of it. Two, in some cases he was there kind of. And in other cases, artistic liberty.

He is, particularly in [Tress of the Emerald Sea], taking some artistic liberties. Now you can assume he has tried very hard to get his stories right when he is taking artistic liberties to the point that you can take most of it as canon, even in Tress. Did I get to the point in Tress about the Dougs? I don't think I did. There's a point, for instance, in Tress where Hoid's like, "I can't remember all these people's names. I'm going to all them all Doug." He does things like that--him acknowledging that he's telling the story after the fact. But he has a supernatural ability to retain stories and get close to the actual soul of the story. You may view all of these things as canon except for some of the places where he obviously fudges a little.

Secret Project #3 Reveal and Livestream (March 22, 2022)

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by alder24

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

We do know that. ch 32:

ch 49:

This time it is Hoid who claims that Yoki-Hijo are invested at birth by the Spirits, which should settle earlier debate.

Edit: Before any of you say Hoid is an unreliable narrator:

  Hide contents

SleepoPeepo

How is Hoid able to talk about events that he wasn’t present for in such great detail, including a person’s internal thoughts and emotions?

Brandon Sanderson

A combination of things. One, he was there for some of it. Two, in some cases he was there kind of. And in other cases, artistic liberty.

He is, particularly in [Tress of the Emerald Sea], taking some artistic liberties. Now you can assume he has tried very hard to get his stories right when he is taking artistic liberties to the point that you can take most of it as canon, even in Tress. Did I get to the point in Tress about the Dougs? I don't think I did. There's a point, for instance, in Tress where Hoid's like, "I can't remember all these people's names. I'm going to all them all Doug." He does things like that--him acknowledging that he's telling the story after the fact. But he has a supernatural ability to retain stories and get close to the actual soul of the story. You may view all of these things as canon except for some of the places where he obviously fudges a little.

Secret Project #3 Reveal and Livestream (March 22, 2022)

 

Understood, and I agree with all of that  - none of which means it is impossible that there were 16 Yoki-Hijo at the time Father Machine was activate and that two of those sixteen passed beyond before the prisons were created to contain the YH that slipped FM's control (all of which was centuries before Hoid or the events of the story).

I am also not saying it is wrong that there were 14 - I am merely trying to point out that the number is not a Fact - it is what we know, from the sources we have and may not be entirely correct.

We can only say for certain that there are 14 at the time of the story - and the indications are that it was that way at the time Father Machine was activated. But since Father Machine, though his puppet Shroud constructs, is the source of that information it should be considered likely-but-not-definite.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Understood, and I agree with all of that  - none of which means it is impossible that there were 16 Yoki-Hijo at the time Father Machine was activate and that two of those sixteen passed beyond before the prisons were created to contain the YH that slipped FM's control (all of which was centuries before Hoid or the events of the story).

I am also not saying it is wrong that there were 14 - I am merely trying to point out that the number is not a Fact - it is what we know, from the sources we have and may not be entirely correct.

We can only say for certain that there are 14 at the time of the story - and the indications are that it was that way at the time Father Machine was activated. But since Father Machine, though his puppet Shroud constructs, is the source of that information it should be considered likely-but-not-definite.

But Yumi said there were 13 other Yoki-Hijo and her memory is from before the Father Machine was activated. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by alder24

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

But Yumi said there were 14 other Yoki-Hijo and her memory is from before the Father Machine was activated. 

Where please? Here are the references I can find:

Spoiler

Ch 2 - Liyun:

Quote

“Never,” Yumi whispered.

“You were honored, of all the children born that year,” Liyun said, “to be given this calling, these powers. One of only fourteen currently living.”

“I know.”

“You are special.”

She would have preferred to be less special—but she felt guilty the moment she thought it.

Ch 22 - Hwanji

Quote

“Oh,” Hwanji said, looking away. “Most of them, Honored One. Of the fourteen current yoki-hijo, I think there is just one other orthodox. It…well, you wouldn’t know this, but the reform movement isn’t exactly new. It’s a couple hundred years old now. Almost everyone else feels that there’s no reason to be quite so strict with the yoki-hijo.”

Ch 24 - Scholar:

Quote

“And how many yoki-hijo are there?” the scholar shouted back. “Sixteen at most! We currently have only fourteen. How long did the people of this town wait between visits of the yoki-hijo? Months? Years? These machines can be placed in every town and village, working all day.”

Ch 28 - Painter (repeating what he heard from Hwanji)

Quote

“I could never. Yumi, maybe we could…”

What? Travel the space between planets? Even if the government allowed a couple of youths to do something like that—which was highly unlikely—she was still a yoki-hijo. One of only fourteen on her whole world.

Ch 39 - Hoid

Quote

The machine evaporated the population of Torio, feeding upon their power and spitting out the shroud as a byproduct. Well, as Yumi and Painter had both guessed (despite lacking all the information), there were some people the machine couldn’t harvest or control: the yoki-hijo.

They were superficially killed during the machine’s initial activation like everyone else. However, after a short time these fourteen souls pulled themselves free of the shroud and re-formed. They came back from the dead, refusing to be controlled.

All fourteen women were beings of incredible willpower. Highly Invested at birth by the spirits, they presented a legitimate threat to the machine. It could not harvest their energy and could not keep them contained in the shroud. The most the machine could do to them was siphon off a tiny bit of their memories.

So, to control them, it created prisons in the form of fake towns. Servants, compelled by the machine, emerged from the shroud. Buildings, plants, and vehicles were recreated from the substance of souls, and a careful perimeter was erected. The walls Masaka found? Those projected (by making images out of the shroud) a perfectly realistic, yet fake landscape.

These places were fourteen nature preserves, you might say, each designed for a single occupant. 

Please note the very specific wording - these 14 souls. . . 

Also note that Liyun tells Yumi "you are one of 14" (paraphrased) early on that first day, possibily indicating that Father-Machine-through-Liyun tells here this every day. reinforcing the story it wants believed (true or not).

Edited November 23, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Where please?

In the quote I've posted earlier, ch 32:

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

We do know that. ch 32:

Quote

“I could see that,” Design said, rolling her eyes as if they were supposed to understand why. “She’s Connected to you, obviously. I could see that without the device. And a few others. Then there are these thirteen odd lines…”
“Thirteen?” Yumi said, standing up from her stool.
“Yup!” Design said. “Connection lines are easy to see at times, but notoriously hard to read. I don’t know what these are Connected to. Didn’t look like family though. More a thematic Connection…”
“Yumi?” he asked.
“There are currently thirteen other yoki-hijo,” Yumi said. “Where? Where are they?”

 

And yeah, I meant 13 in the previous post. Sorry.

Edited November 23, 2023 by alder24

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

In the quote I've posted earlier, ch 32:

And yeah, I meant 13 in the previous post. Sorry.

Right, but that's still "currently" and my whole point was:

20 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Without going too far off-topic, I'd like to point out that we do not actually know there were only 14 YH when Father Machine was activated

(not to mention that was Design telling Yumi, not Yumi stating the number(s) of YH)

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Right, but that's still "currently" and my whole point was:

But her "currently" is 1700 years ago, before the activation of the Father Machine. Her memories of Yoki-Hijo are of the distant past not present. She still doesn't know what's going on with her and Nikaro in this chapter. Her knowledge of 13 other Yoki-Hijo predates the Father Machine - that's my point.

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

(not to mention that was Design telling Yumi, not Yumi stating the number(s) of YH)

Read it again please, Yumi said there are 13 other Yoki-Hijo, not Design.