Kaladin Will Take Honor

[Shaggai]

How can it last across 8 more books?  Make the threat bigger.  That's always an answer.  I mean, look at what Sanderson has done with other works.  There was one thread a month or two back (can't remember the title, or who authored it because I am the worst) that predicted that we haven't even seen the Big Bad of the Stormlight Archive on screen yet based on when we generally see the true Big Bad make an on-screen appearance.  After all, Odium is, quite possibly, a catspaw for something else much bigger, much more dangerous.  Or the think of certain artifacts now unleashed on Roshar that have the potential for have disastrous consequences.  Nightblood consumes Investiture.  Can you imagine what would happen if Szeth wielded it against a Champion of Odium?  How strong could that make Nightblood?  (Or, if Nightblood doesn't gain strength by such consumption, what would the effects of such a battle be/do to Roshar?  Certainly nothing pretty.)

 

It's also important to remember that there are two separate arcs to the Stormlight Archive.  The threat of Odium is likely to, at the very least, be definitively handled by the end of Book 5.

 

Back to OP: I think it more likely for Kaladin to Hold the Shard of Odium than Honor when all is said and done.  No textual reason, just the feeling that I am left with after WoR (the kind of feeling that is often wrong, but comes up with weird and cool ideas to entertain me at the same time.)

Odium is already an incredibly Big Bad. I don't think that there's going to be anything bigger. The thing is, we haven't actually seen Odium yet. We've seen the Voidbringers, we've seen the Unmade, but we've never actually seen Odium. Odium is, at this point, not directly a problem. He's the threat behind all of the specific problems they're facing. Nightblood is unlikely to be a threat anywhere near the same level as the literal Shard of Hatred. As for your point about the two arcs, I think that's less evidence that Odium will cease to be a threat and more evidence that Odium will win the first arc.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Well there is the "force opposed to Adonalsium" and also the "God beyond" that are potential set ups for something beyond Odium in scope and power. They may not be villainous per se, but by their intents and actions, they need to be opposed by the heroes. 

[Shaggai]

Well there is the "force opposed to Adonalsium" and also the "God beyond" that are potential set ups for something beyond Odium in scope and power. They may not be villainous per se, but by their intents and actions, they need to be opposed by the heroes. 

In the Cosmere, but not the Stormlight Archive. Odium will certainly not be the Big Bad of Dragonsteel, but will most likely be the Big Bad of the Stormlight Archive.

[Left he/him]

Perhaps Bavadin will show up, free Odium from the improsenment forced on him during book 5 and then you have both of them to deal with during the back half?

[Shadowspren he/him]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the last trilogy planned for Scadrial have them using Allomancy to space travel? if so, could they merge Scadrial and Roshar to some extent? or maybe because people figure out how to space travel they travel to Roshar and therefore bring Harmony ver with them and the combine power of Cultivation, Honor and Harmony beat Odium. 

If Harmony were to go over to Roshar and Odium was pwning everyone then it would be his nature to put things back in harmony, possibly by assisting in the fight against Odium... 

Alternately we have to consider the existence of several more shards that we do not yet know of which could be key factors to the defeat of Odium. Also, when Brandon brings out the book about the origins of Hoid will probably reveal heaps about how things will or could go down.

[Kelek's Breath he/him]

The thing is, we haven't actually seen Odium yet. We've seen the Voidbringers, we've seen the Unmade, but we've never actually seen Odium.

 

I don't think we have seen The Voidbringers or the Unmade as of yet. We have seen some of the effects of the Unmade (the Thrill, the Death cries, Dalina's vision), but not the actual embodied Unmade. Who knows what havoc they will bring. And in my estimation, we have not seen the Voidbringers proper yet. The Parshendi are voidbringers in that they can link with Odium spren and take new Forms, but I don't think they are The Voidbringers (what am I basing this on? Random speculation and the Vorin Lore of being kicked out of the Tranquiline Halls by the Voidbringers).

In my opinion, If the Tranquiline Halls used to be Braize, and this was the original Planet of Rosharan humans, wouldn't the Voidbringers have kicked them out of there? These could not have been the Parshendi, who were always Roshar based.

Thus, if the first 5 book arc is only about stopping this Desolation (with the Unmade and Voidbringers), without Odium showing up, the next 5 book arc, can be about Odium actually making it over to Roshar from Braize.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Kelek's Breath

[Shaggai]

 

I don't think we have seen The Voidbringers or the Unmade as of yet. We have seen some of the effects of the Unmade (the Thrill, the Death cries, Dalina's vision), but not the actual embodied Unmade. Who knows what havoc they will bring. And in my estimation, we have not seen the Voidbringers proper yet. The Parshendi are voidbringers in that they can link with Odium spren and take new Forms, but I don't think they are The Voidbringers (what am I basing this on? Random speculation and the Vorin Lore of being kicked out of the Tranquiline Halls by the Voidbringers).

In my opinion, If the Tranquiline Halls used to be Braize, and this was the original Planet of Rosharan humans, wouldn't the Voidbringers have kicked them out of there? These could not have been the Parshendi, who were always Roshar based.

Thus, if the first 5 book arc is only about stopping this Desolation (with the Unmade and Voidbringers), without Odium showing up, the next 5 book arc, can be about Odium actually making it over to Roshar from Braize.

Stormform are a kind of Voidbringer.

[Paragrin she/her]

Braize is Damnation, not the Tranquiline Halls.

[Kelek's Breath he/him]

Braize is Damnation, not the Tranquiline Halls.

Oh, thanks for explaining this. I kind of get confused, because I figure that it became Damnation after Odium chased out the humans and they fled to Roshar. I have asked for help in the Question & Answer post, to see if someone can help me understand better.

[weebojello]

Oh, thanks for explaining this. I kind of get confused, because I figure that it became Damnation after Odium chased out the humans and they fled to Roshar. I have asked for help in the Question & Answer post, to see if someone can help me understand better.

 

I thought the same as you. Did I miss the WOB on this?

[Shaggai]

I thought the same as you. Did I miss the WOB on this?

I believe WoR says that Braize is another word for Damnation. However, it's unknown if it was originally the Tranquiline Halls.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Shaggai

[kaellok he/him]

I believe WoR says that Braize is another word for Damnation. However, it's unknown if it was originally the Tranquiline Halls.

Kaladin says that Braize is another word for Damnation in text.  WoB is:

 

 

Q:  So there are two other planets in the Roshar system, are they the Tranquiline Halls and Damnation that you mentioned in TWoK?

A:  There has been in the past knowledge of other planets in the system and that has indeed influenced the mythology of the world.

[weebojello]

Ahh, good to know. I had always kind of assumed that humans originated on Braize, Odium came, they moved to Roshar. This made the Tranqualine Halls now Damnation. The Heralds, while being human, might have been born on Braize, which is why they go back. I've never really understood if that was part of the Oathpact, or part of the agreement between Odium / Honor that the Heralds as part of the Oathpact adhere too.

[Left he/him]

Ahh, good to know. I had always kind of assumed that humans originated on Braize, Odium came, they moved to Roshar. This made the Tranqualine Halls now Damnation. The Heralds, while being human, might have been born on Braize, which is why they go back. I've never really understood if that was part of the Oathpact, or part of the agreement between Odium / Honor that the Heralds as part of the Oathpact adhere too.

That is a theory that floats around quite a bit, but the honest answer- I think- is that we don't know enough to say what really happened. There might be a wob that says something different, but the ones I remember are painfully ambiguous.

[kaellok he/him]

Ahh, good to know. I had always kind of assumed that humans originated on Braize, Odium came, they moved to Roshar. This made the Tranqualine Halls now Damnation. The Heralds, while being human, might have been born on Braize, which is why they go back. I've never really understood if that was part of the Oathpact, or part of the agreement between Odium / Honor that the Heralds as part of the Oathpact adhere too.

Side note: Odium is not a part of the Oathpact.  WoB on the subject make it seem like it is between the Heralds and Honor.  There is one that may imply the Radiants are also a part of the Oathpact.  There is nothing that I have seen that suggests that Odium is.  The confusion regarding this is when Honor speaks in one of Dalinar's visions, saying that there are certain rules that Odium may be bound by.  However, the language used there always seemed to indicate to me that it's something that applies to all Shards/Shardholders, and thus not a part of the Oathpact at all.

[Moogle]

Side note: Odium is not a part of the Oathpact.  WoB on the subject make it seem like it is between the Heralds and Honor.  There is one that may imply the Radiants are also a part of the Oathpact.  There is nothing that I have seen that suggests that Odium is.  The confusion regarding this is when Honor speaks in one of Dalinar's visions, saying that there are certain rules that Odium may be bound by.  However, the language used there always seemed to indicate to me that it's something that applies to all Shards/Shardholders, and thus not a part of the Oathpact at all.

 

Odium is, however, "bound" to the Greater Roshar system (as per the letters between Hoid/probably-Frost). Honor, being all about binding things, is definitely the likely culprit there (though I've seen theories that Odium isn't 'bound', but rather will not leave because he Invested on Roshar and won't give up his power).

 

The way Odium waits between Desolations for the Heralds to leave suggests Odium is bound to rules which force him to wait on the Heralds. This may not be the "Oathpact" (since Odium wasn't part of it originally and we have nothing to suggest he joined), but the Oathpact itself may be a subset of the actual binding of Odium. Honor says in the visions that they should choose a champion, and it may be that the Heralds were always Honor's champion(s), except then they quit so Honor is trying to get people to choose different ones now. Becoming a 'champion' of Honor might mean joining the Oathpact.

 

(And before anyone brings up the fact that Honor didn't imply this/used a singular, I note that Honor was a moron. He was incapable of communicating clearly during the visions. I could do better than him at explaining the situation with Odium and the nature of Shards with like five paragraphs! Instead he just gave Dalinar some glimpses of history and spoke cryptically. He didn't even explain what caused the Recreance, just showed it happening! Gah!)

 

I mean, if the Oathpact wasn't related to the cycle of Desolations/Odium, why would the Heralds be so eager to get out of it? The only explanation I can think of is that it relates to their torture in Damnation, which is very clearly related to Odium/the Desolations.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Moogle

[kaellok he/him]

Right, Moogle.  I tend to view it as the Oathpact is a prison, Odium is a prisoner, the Heralds are the doors to the prison, and a Desolation is a prison riot (it's not the prettiest picture I have ever used, but I haven't come up with a better one yet).   

 

And I totally agree about Honor's stupidity--when you're trying to save the world from literally ending (not just war, or famine, or end of humans/people, but end of entire world) the last thing you want to do is be vague in how to not die.

[weebojello]

Cryptic to us, but cryptic to someone versed in the Oathpact and the rules? Also knowing that Cultivation is also still around? Honor certainly made some assumptions regarding a lot of the information shared to Dalinar.

 

1) Dawnchat!

2) Assumed knowledge of events not named - Recreance, etc.

 

Honor can / should have done better. The idea that Odium is bound to the Roshar system by the author of the 2nd letter is interesting. There was a WOB that Odium desires essentially to shatter *all* shards - having succeeded at 3 of the other 15. This means that Cultivation is due next. By Wyndle, we know that Cultivation is feeling fairly hopeless / indifferent. We also know that Odium needs a lot of time to recover from shattering a shard.

 

Hence, Odium isn't really bound to the Roshar system, but has been building power to shatter Cultivation, and then if there are no other shards in the system, will probably leave and go to another system. Harmony being at the top of the list of Odium has always feared happening.

 

Back to the recent posts:

I had the general sense that Honor / Odium had an agreement of sorts. Honor, in holding up his end of the bargain, does the Oathpact where the Heralds fulfill Honor's stated purpose in the agreement with Odium. The horror of unending immortality with torture was too much in the end for the Heralds.

 

Really fascinating. I'm hoping in Dalinar's book we get some clues as to the original intent / agreement of all this to help us put things in context!

[Kelek's Breath he/him]

 

(And before anyone brings up the fact that Honor didn't imply this/used a singular, I note that Honor was a moron. He was incapable of communicating clearly during the visions. I could do better than him at explaining the situation with Odium and the nature of Shards with like five paragraphs! Instead he just gave Dalinar some glimpses of history and spoke cryptically. He didn't even explain what caused the Recreance, just showed it happening! Gah!)

.

 There has to be some significance as to why Honor can't give any more useful information. He always tells Dalinar, at the end of the visions things like:

"I will give you what I can, I am sorry for not giving you more",

"I wish I could help you",

"I have said that I cannot be of much help to you",

then, in the vision of the True Desolation in TWoK, Tanavast says "I can't leave much. Just these few images, given to you".

 

Is Honour constrained by an agreement with Odium to the type of help he can provide? He also says 2 conflicting things about seeing the future. He claims that He is not good at seeing the future, but Cultivation is better (TWoK pg 1244 paperback), but also says "to speak of what might be is forbidden" (TWoK pg.374 paperback). It's one thing to say that I am no good at seeing the future, and another to say it is forbidden to talk about the future. If Odium and Honour had an agreement, maybe they both agreed that they cannot help their agents too much, except by granting them power/slivers of themselves. Maybe there was a 'no interference rule', whereby the Shards are not allowed to pass any knowledge of ways to win the battle, except the very basics. This would also explain why, when the Heralds walked away, Tanavast could do nothing to reprimand them or bring them back. His hands may have been tied.

 

On another wild tangent, the Heralds may be tied to the Oathpact, but they may not be Honour's champions. Their duty is to show up before the Desolation begins, thus Heralding it, and prepare the humans on Roshar. Maybe humans as a whole are Honour's champions, and as such, Desolations need to wipe out the whole of humanity, to succeed. The Oathpact may just be that Honour has bound them to this task for as long as Odium is attacking the humans.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Kelek's Breath