You can do WHAT with Unmade!?

[Frustration he/him]

So I just found out that you can still spike unmade to bind them to the physical realm.

Spoiler

Clowdtail12

I was just wondering if Sando [Brandon] has ever said what was behind the very ornate door under The First Capital [in The Way of Kings Prime]?

Brandon Sanderson

An Unmade was behind that door, spiked with crystal spikes to the wall, holding it and preventing it from going anywhere. I believe I talked about it on a stream somewhere.

This was very, very early Hemalurgy--and some of the things I was planning there are no longer canon. You probably could still spike an Unmade to bind it to the Physical Realm, though, so that part remains viable.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/514/#e16216

 

 

 

That raises so many questions: Can you do this with other spren, can you use this to shift Unmade from in between two realms entirely into one realm, etc.

 

Looks like hemalurgic enthusiasts get something else to look forward to.

[The Stormfather He/Him]

what?

that's cool.

could you spike a spren and turn it into a deadeye?

hemalurgy is so confusing.

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So I just found out that you can still spike unmade to bind them to the physical realm.

  Hide contents

Clowdtail12

I was just wondering if Sando [Brandon] has ever said what was behind the very ornate door under The First Capital [in The Way of Kings Prime]?

Brandon Sanderson

An Unmade was behind that door, spiked with crystal spikes to the wall, holding it and preventing it from going anywhere. I believe I talked about it on a stream somewhere.

This was very, very early Hemalurgy--and some of the things I was planning there are no longer canon. You probably could still spike an Unmade to bind it to the Physical Realm, though, so that part remains viable.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/514/#e16216

 

 

 

That raises so many questions: Can you do this with other spren, can you use this to shift Unmade from in between two realms entirely into one realm, etc.

 

Looks like hemalurgic enthusiasts get something else to look forward to.

I don't find it very surprising as that's precisely what Kelsier is right now - he's a "spren" bound to PR via Hemalurgic spike. 

[Frustration he/him]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't find it very surprising as that's precisely what Kelsier is right now - he's a "spren" bound to PR via Hemalurgic spike. 

I did not think of that, so I guess it's not that out of left field, but I'd argue he's more bound to his body by a spike not the PR. Which is a lot closer to regular Hemalurgy, than just shoving a spike into the ground or whatever it happens to be.

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ Male]

36 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So I just found out that you can still spike unmade to bind them to the physical realm.

  Hide contents

Clowdtail12

I was just wondering if Sando [Brandon] has ever said what was behind the very ornate door under The First Capital [in The Way of Kings Prime]?

Brandon Sanderson

An Unmade was behind that door, spiked with crystal spikes to the wall, holding it and preventing it from going anywhere. I believe I talked about it on a stream somewhere.

This was very, very early Hemalurgy--and some of the things I was planning there are no longer canon. You probably could still spike an Unmade to bind it to the Physical Realm, though, so that part remains viable.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/514/#e16216

 

 

 

That raises so many questions: Can you do this with other spren, can you use this to shift Unmade from in between two realms entirely into one realm, etc.

 

Looks like hemalurgic enthusiasts get something else to look forward to.

That has interesting potential.

[Duxredux he/him]

@Trusk'our, you have been summoned. Start from the top.

How much would it break to have the Stormfather physically bound to a single location?

[Frustration he/him]

8 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

@Trusk'our, .

How much would it break to have the Stormfather physically bound to a single location?

Yes.

[Trusk'our he/him]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

So I just found out that you can still spike unmade to bind them to the physical realm.

  Hide contents

Clowdtail12

I was just wondering if Sando [Brandon] has ever said what was behind the very ornate door under The First Capital [in The Way of Kings Prime]?

Brandon Sanderson

An Unmade was behind that door, spiked with crystal spikes to the wall, holding it and preventing it from going anywhere. I believe I talked about it on a stream somewhere.

This was very, very early Hemalurgy--and some of the things I was planning there are no longer canon. You probably could still spike an Unmade to bind it to the Physical Realm, though, so that part remains viable.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/514/#e16216

 

 

That raises so many questions: Can you do this with other spren, can you use this to shift Unmade from in between two realms entirely into one realm, etc.

Looks like hemalurgic enthusiasts get something else to look forward to.

Ah, so you saw that one too. I found it a few days ago while trying to find some quote I remember vaguely that talked about Marsh having enough spikes to have his soul pinned to his body in such as way that he's more resistant to dying via lose of a Linchpin spike for a completely different topic (still haven't found it). But yeah, it's pretty neat.

As @Frustration mentioned, Kelsier's situation is a bit different; he has a physical body that he's been stapled to rather than being drawn into the PR by the spike itself (in fact, I suspect what the WoB says can be done with Unmade is what has already been done with Kel). 

This thing you can do with the Unmade is probably similar to how Ishar is experimenting with bringing Spren into the PR, probably by Connecting them to the PR and they automatically create bodies for themselves (which is probably how the Heralds themselves reincarnate- and probably where he got the idea from).

7 hours ago, The stormfather said:

what?

that's cool.

Yes, it is.

7 hours ago, The stormfather said:

hemalurgy is so confusing.

Yes, it is 

7 hours ago, The stormfather said:

could you spike a spren and turn it into a deadeye?

Almost certainly; a Deadeye seems to be the way it is because certain parts of the Spiritweb have been removed- Spiking a Spren in the right way would do just that (and probably worse, as it might take more from them).

So, if you really want to eliminate the Unmade from the scene, just spike them with a big ol' chunk of nicrosil (or maybe duralumin) and reduce them to a barely functional Deadeye. Brutal, but effective.

In fact, I think that you could turn a Listener or a Singer into Slaveform with H-duralumin by spiking their Connection and Identity out- the Everstorm healed that for the Singers, so reversing the process is likely possible. It would probably be evil, but technically could be done.

6 hours ago, Duxredux said:

How much would it break to have the Stormfather physically bound to a single location?

How much damage would it do to Roshar? Well, the Highstorm is what keeps the planet alive (supplies fresh crem for the ecosystem, brings water, and generates the planet's magnetic field), so locking the Stormfather to one location would probably spell the doom of the planet unless Cultivation took direct action (or unless a really cool plot sequence came to fruition).

It might end up being somewhat like how BAM's imprisonment hurt all of Roshar, but that severed all the Connections tied to her rather than causing a physical catastrophe, so the situation might just be different though, as you're not necessarily severing the Stormfather's Connections, you'd just be giving him a new one (I think).

But yeah, it would probably kill everybody .

6 hours ago, Duxredux said:

@Trusk'our, you have been summoned. Start from the top.

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

Yes.

Does this mean I'm unofficially the 17th Shard's expert on Hemalurgy now? 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Trusk'our

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

Does that mean you could spike a spren to bind it to the Cognitive Realm?

So many questions...

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Does that mean you could spike a spren to bind it to the Cognitive Realm?

So many questions...

Do you mean to bind them to a specific location in the CR? If so, yes- any Connection to a location or entity will trap you there or with them if it is strong enough, so spiking some Connection to a location into their system would do the trick.

Yumi spoilers;

Spoiler

We this in Yumi, where the two protagonists are unable to leave each other's presence due to their strong Connection.

 

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

1 minute ago, Trusk'our said:

Do you mean to bind them to a specific location in the CR? If so, yes- any Connection to a location or entity will trap you there or with them if it is strong enough, so spiking some Connection to a location into their system would do the trick.

Yumi spoilers;

  Hide contents

We this in Yumi, where the two protagonists are unable to leave each other's presence due to their strong Connection.

 

I know that works in the Physical Realm, but the CR might do some weird things with it.

But you do raise an interesting question. What would happen if you spiked someone with super strong Connection to a specific location? Wouldn't it trap them there? Is that why NPCs never seem to leave their spot?

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 minute ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

I know that works in the Physical Realm, but the CR might do some weird things with it.

True, but location is still a viable factor, so there's a good chance it could work.

1 minute ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

But you do raise an interesting question. What would happen if you spiked someone with super strong Connection to a specific location? Wouldn't it trap them there? 

I should think so, yes. They could probably just remove the spike (unless it's in a fatal location, such as the heart) to escape though.

2 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Is that why NPCs never seem to leave their spot?

Lol, exactly 

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

1 minute ago, Trusk'our said:

I should think so, yes. They could probably just remove the spike (unless it's in a fatal location, such as the heart) to escape though.

True.

Yumi spoilers:
 

Spoiler

The spirit monkeyed with Yumi and Painter's Connection without Hemalurgy, without an obvious way to remove it.

Couldn't you do something similar by connecting someone to a place, and if so, would they be able to get out of it?

[Frustration he/him]

32 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Does this mean I'm unofficially the 17th Shard's expert on Hemalurgy now? 

I was saying yes to how much damage would be done if the Stormfather was bound in one place, but that works too.

 

I have for a long time considered getting a group of people together with various fields of expertise in order to further our study of the Cosmere, so if that ever happens consider this your official invite.

[Trusk'our he/him]

31 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Couldn't you do something similar by connecting someone to a place, and if so, would they be able to get out of it?

Yeah, it's called unchained Bondsmithing 

I'm sure that there are other ways, but as of right I only know of Hemalurgy and Bondsmithing powers being able to pull of this feat. Also, F-duralumin may be able to help with this situation (yes, even against a Bondsmith), as you could just store the Connection away.

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I was saying yes to how much damage would be done if the Stormfather was bound in one place, but that works too.

Spoiler

 

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I have for a long time considered getting a group of people together with various fields of expertise in order to further our study of the Cosmere, so if that ever happens consider this your official invite.

Thank you! I'd be honored to share my opinions and insights should such a thing come around.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Trusk'our

[The Stormfather He/Him]

17 hours ago, Duxredux said:

 

How much would it break to have the Stormfather physically bound to a single location?

HEY!!!

why are you binding me to a single Location?

 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Do I get a specialty invite? I know Cosmere stuff.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Do I get a specialty invite? I know Cosmere stuff.

Well considering how it's likely to never actually happen I'd consider it more of a joke than a serious invitation, but if you really want one I won't say no.

*Hands bigmikey an overly decorated invitation*

[Quantus he/him]

Jumping in: I think Kelsier and the hypothetically Spiked UnMade are essentially the same and the Body is just and extra step/perk. 

Spikes Hold Investiture, just like Gems.  Once Kelsier was Spiked back into a Body*  he was officially In the Physical Realm, although he was trapped and immobile until the Spike got plugged into a person.  Trap an UnMade in a Gem, and they are locked in the Physical Realm and immobilized unless and until they get plugged into a Fabrial. Same thing, different materials.  So a Spike (Nricosil, Im guessing) provides a far less leaky storage than the average Gem, at the cost of more complicated Charging/Trapping requirements.

 

*How did that work, BTW? How did Kelsier "load" himself into a spike" when he had no body to Spike himself out of?

[alder24]

33 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Jumping in: I think Kelsier and the hypothetically Spiked UnMade are essentially the same and the Body is just and extra step/perk. 

I agree.

34 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Spikes Hold Investiture, just like Gems.  Once Kelsier was Spiked back into a Body*

*How did that work, BTW? How did Kelsier "load" himself into a spike" when he had no body to Spike himself out of?

You can spike a spren, a body doesn't matter, and that's what Kelsier was at the end of SH. I believe with a correct intent and maybe even command, you can use a spike to spike through all 3 realms, as that's what ripping off chunks of a spirit web does - it reaches into SR. With Kelsier I simply think that someone in PR (Spook) spiked a mistwraith, while Kelsier was just standing in front of it in CR and was dragged by a spike into the mistwraith's body. He wasn't "loaded" into a spike, rather than "nailed" into a body, just like Frustration's WoB is saying.

36 minutes ago, Quantus said:

So a Spike (Nricosil, Im guessing)

I believe Brandon said in a WoB that Kel's spike is made out of steel, but I can't find it.

[Trusk'our he/him]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

I believe Brandon said in a WoB that Kel's spike is made out of steel, but I can't find it.

It is in the eye socket, which is used for H-steel.

9 hours ago, Quantus said:

Jumping in: I think Kelsier and the hypothetically Spiked UnMade are essentially the same and the Body is just and extra step/perk. 

Spikes Hold Investiture, just like Gems.  Once Kelsier was Spiked back into a Body*  he was officially In the Physical Realm, although he was trapped and immobile until the Spike got plugged into a person.  Trap an UnMade in a Gem, and they are locked in the Physical Realm and immobilized unless and until they get plugged into a Fabrial. Same thing, different materials.  So a Spike (Nricosil, Im guessing) provides a far less leaky storage than the average Gem, at the cost of more complicated Charging/Trapping requirements.

I don't know if this could work the way Hemalurgy is understood currently; Gemstones trap the entire entity while spikes rip off functional pieces. If you tried to trap someone in a spike you'd probably just rip a hole in their soul. Perhaps it could be done, but you'd need to do it in a manner currently unseen.

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

You can spike a spren, a body doesn't matter, and that's what Kelsier was at the end of SH. I believe with a correct intent and maybe even command, you can use a spike to spike through all 3 realms, as that's what ripping off chunks of a spirit web does - it reaches into SR. With Kelsier I simply think that someone in PR (Spook) spiked a mistwraith, while Kelsier was just standing in front of it in CR and was dragged by a spike into the mistwraith's body. He wasn't "loaded" into a spike, rather than "nailed" into a body, just like Frustration's WoB is saying.

It sounds like you'd have to travel to the Cognitive Realm to spike a Spren (or Cognitive Shadow for that matter), so Spook probably traveled through Harmony's Perpendicularity to spike a Connection off Kelsier and staple it to a Mistwraith that ate Kel's bones;

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/75/#e4359

Questioner

Supposing that a skilled Hemalurgist got hold of some a Shardblade or some Shardplate, how would he best use it assuming that the best way isn't to put it on and kill people with it.

Brandon Sanderson

That's probably the best way, to put it on and kill people with it. I'm not sure why a Hemalurgist would want one more than anyone else would because the metal is already Invested which means its not useful to him.

Questioner

So there is no way that he could use a Hemalurgic spike to take some power from the Spren that's crafting it.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, that's what you're saying. You want to grab something off the Spren? That's gonna be way harder than grabbing one that's not already made into something. So I don't see why he would want the Blade, just go grab it from them. Even then its going to be worse then, probably in most cases, a person. Maybe its possible that spiking yourself with a Spren would be valid, but you don't want to take it out of the Shardblade. That's gonna be harder, but you would probably have to go to the Cognitive either way to make it work, so yeah.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/121/#e4768

Mr. Suit

Can spren - like Syl - be pierced by hemalurgic spike? Will it give some effect?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. A spren can be pierced by Invested metal…

Oversleep

Could it be spiked?

Brandon Sanderson

Could a spike be used to give abilities to spren? That’s not going to work really well.

Oversleep

Could you steal from a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you could steal the Investiture of a spren. Any Investiture can be used in a spike if you know what you’re doing. It’s actually not that hard to use one on a spren.

Oversleep

Because I thought you said Hemalurgy needs moving blood.

Brandon Sanderson

It needs, uh, yeah… there are places where spren have more physical form, more tangible form.

Questioner

Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

No, no, no, not Roshar.

Questioner

The Cognitive Realm on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, if you go to the Cognitive Realm on Roshar the spren act differently than they do.

Oversleep

So you could spike in the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I’ll leave a RAFO with you on that. That’s your fifth one. So there are ways to get any Investiture into Hemalurgy if you know what you’re doing. But yeah this is not something that would be a common use for Hemalurgy. Let’s just say that.

Oversleep

We do not concern ourselves with common uses.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I know you don’t. But yeah Hemalurgy, when you’re spiking into somebody you… you’ll see when we get around to it.

 

9 hours ago, Quantus said:

Jumping in: I think Kelsier and the hypothetically Spiked UnMade are essentially the same and the Body is just and extra step/perk. 

I agree with this as well, though I think that Kelsier had a Connection spiked from him into a Mistwraith rather than him actually existing entirely within the spike itself.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

It is in the eye socket, which is used for H-steel.

Yes but no - in the Steel Inquisitor table it's used for Physical spikes: iron, steel, tin and pewter. But we've seen the use of spikes outside of their known applications, like pewter Blessings, so this could be any spike. Unlikely, but it is possible.

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

It sounds like you'd have to travel to the Cognitive Realm to spike a Spren (or Cognitive Shadow for that matter), so Spook probably traveled through Harmony's Perpendicularity to spike a Connection off Kelsier and staple it to a Mistwraith that ate Kel's bones;

It might be that Spook had to be in CR (but I think not when you don't want to steal anything), but I don't think he took Kelsier's Connection - it would rip it off his spirit web and give it to a Mistwraith - this Connection would no longer be "Connected" to Kelsier so he would not get nailed into Mistwraith's body. That's why I think this spike couldn't rip anything off Kelsier, because Kelsier would simply lose it. Your idea wouldn't Connect Kelsier to PR. The opposite might - spiking Mistwraith's Connection to PR out and giving it to Kelsier while nailing him into Mistwraith's body. Identity would match, and Kelsier's spirit would get Connected to the body with a physical spike alongside his new gained Connection.

[Quantus he/him]

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

 

I don't know if this could work the way Hemalurgy is understood currently; Gemstones trap the entire entity while spikes rip off functional pieces. If you tried to trap someone in a spike you'd probably just rip a hole in their soul. Perhaps it could be done, but you'd need to do it in a manner currently unseen.

I agree with this as well, though I think that Kelsier had a Connection spiked from him into a Mistwraith rather than him actually existing entirely within the spike itself.

Gemstones trap the entirety of a pure Cognitive Investiture entity, as opposed to the full Three Realms existence of a PR mortal.  So in theory it should be the same as the Spike ripping all that off and leaving all the Physical Body parts (ie. the parts that got futzed with to make Koloss back in the day) behind.  In Kel's case, death simply did that first so he just skipped a step. 

That being said, I do think you can contain a complete Spiritweb in a Spike, especially if it's already been liberated from it's meat-gundam.  It could take an Atium spike that doesnt have the same spiritweb sector limitations, and it would take very specific Intent, but I do think it should be within the reach of (late-stage) Hemalurgy as a system.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

11 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes but no - in the Steel Inquisitor table it's used for Physical spikes: iron, steel, tin and pewter. But we've seen the use of spikes outside of their known applications, like pewter Blessings, so this could be any spike. Unlikely, but it is possible.

True, it's possible it could be one of the other metals. I find it particularly interesting that it's likely one of those spikes as opposed something like duralumin or nicrosil (probably. Maybe you can put those in the eye, but based on the Hemalurgy table I find it somewhat unlikely), as the things they take aren't related to spiritual attributes (such as messing with Connection).

As you mentioned, pewter can be used for Kandra Blessings, so perhaps there is more leniency to Hemalurgy's use with particular metals than the other Metallic Arts; essentially, if you have the right Command and enough skill, you might be able to hotwire extra pieces of Spiritweb with a metal that wouldn't normally be tied to that particular attribute.

11 hours ago, alder24 said:

It might be that Spook had to be in CR (but I think not when you don't want to steal anything), but I don't think he took Kelsier's Connection - it would rip it off his spirit web and give it to a Mistwraith - this Connection would no longer be "Connected" to Kelsier so he would not get nailed into Mistwraith's body. That's why I think this spike couldn't rip anything off Kelsier, because Kelsier would simply lose it. Your idea wouldn't Connect Kelsier to PR. The opposite might - spiking Mistwraith's Connection to PR out and giving it to Kelsier while nailing him into Mistwraith's body. Identity would match, and Kelsier's spirit would get Connected to the body with a physical spike alongside his new gained Connection.

This now makes more sense in my opinion my original idea. I adopt it for my current head cannon of how Kelsier got his body back 

11 hours ago, Quantus said:

Gemstones trap the entirety of a pure Cognitive Investiture entity, as opposed to the full Three Realms existence of a PR mortal.  So in theory it should be the same as the Spike ripping all that off and leaving all the Physical Body parts (ie. the parts that got futzed with to make Koloss back in the day) behind.  In Kel's case, death simply did that first so he just skipped a step. 

That being said, I do think you can contain a complete Spiritweb in a Spike, especially if it's already been liberated from it's meat-gundam.  It could take an Atium spike that doesnt have the same spiritweb sector limitations, and it would take very specific Intent, but I do think it should be within the reach of (late-stage) Hemalurgy as a system.  

Perhaps this could be the case, but if it could be done it would likely require a hack of some kind; Hemalurgy does not typically steal from the Cognitive Aspect, only the Spiritual Aspect.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80/#e5282

Questioner

With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets?

Brandon Sanderson

So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one.

Bystander

There's still things to decide upon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/66/#e3165

ccstat

Vasher uses Awakening in a very interesting way, off-stage, to modify the memories of the girl he rescues. Can Hemalurgy do the same thing if used carefully?

Brandon Sanderson

*long pause* No, I don't really think that it can. Nobody has asked that before, but just looking at the way the magics work, I don't think that is something that Hemalurgy is capable of doing.