Artificially Creating Slivers

[Trusk'our he/him]

A Sliver is created when a person wields enough Investiture. It doesn't have to be full Shard, just a lot, such as from the Well of Ascension. I suspect that if an organization (or someone like Rashek with superpowered Compounding) were to find a way to fill a huge Metalmind (100-1,000 tons amount of metal) to the brim with Investiture, someone could tap it and expand themselves into Sliverhood.

This would be hard to do (and probably not worth doing for most cases), but I think it's hypothetically possible with enough Compounding (or enough Identity-Blanked Feruchemists working in unison over a long enough period of time) and enough metal.

What do you guys think?

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

A Sliver is created when a person wields enough Investiture. It doesn't have to be full Shard, just a lot, such as from the Well of Ascension. I suspect that if an organization (or someone like Rashek with superpowered Compounding) were to find a way to fill a huge Metalmind (100-1,000 tons amount of metal) to the brim with Investiture, someone could tap it and expand themselves into Sliverhood.

This would be hard to do (and probably not worth doing for most cases), but I think it's hypothetically possible with enough Compounding (or enough Identity-Blanked Feruchemists working in unison over a long enough period of time) and enough metal.

What do you guys think?

Sure, it'll just take a metal mind the size of a Scadrian Continent (or larger) and the lifetime of an atium compounder - but totally plausible.

Realistically speaking - a Sliver is a being that has held the majority of a Shard (at least enough to transcend conciousness to the Spiritual realm), then released that power.

Sure, there is a wishy washy definition spectrum range where Brandon has implied that some Cosmere Realmatics Scholars might argue that Stormfather counts as a Sliver, or Dalinar or Hoid (DawnSliver?) - but the actual Confirmed "this person is a Sliver" list only includes those that have held Shardic power for some length of time. Telsin was confirmed to be on her way to becoming an Avatar - and she referenced herself as a Sliver, but she was not (she just wanted to mimic TLR's "Sliver of Infinity" moniker).

I would link all the WoBs - but they areleady all linked on the Coppermind page that I did link.

[Trusk'our he/him]

46 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Sure, it'll just take a metal mind the size of a Scadrian Continent (or larger) and the lifetime of an atium compounder - but totally plausible.

Realistically speaking - a Sliver is a being that has held the majority of a Shard (at least enough to transcend conciousness to the Spiritual realm), then released that power.

Sure, there is a wishy washy definition spectrum range where Brandon has implied that some Cosmere Realmatics Scholars might argue that Stormfather counts as a Sliver, or Dalinar or Hoid (DawnSliver?) - but the actual Confirmed "this person is a Sliver" list only includes those that have held Shardic power for some length of time. Telsin was confirmed to be on her way to becoming an Avatar - and she referenced herself as a Sliver, but she was not (she just wanted to mimic TLR's "Sliver of Infinity" moniker).

I would link all the WoBs - but they areleady all linked on the Coppermind page that I did link.

Eh, I don't know that you'd need that much metal to become a Sliver, though you'd need a lot. Far more than would be possible in practical application (so I don't see it really happening anytime soon. Probably ever, actually), though a continent's worth seems a bit overkill to me.

Another possibility for becoming a Sliver; what if you had a really, really large chunk of Allomantically viable metal that you pierced your body with, then burned with duralumin to use up all at once?

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Another possibility for becoming a Sliver; what if you had a really, really large chunk of Allomantically viable metal that you pierced your body with, then burned with duralumin to use up all at once?

That would still be a bare fraction of a Shard's power, and b=urning it doesn't invest you - it just creates it's effect and continues in the normal investiture cycle. It's one of the reasons that Mistborn are considered one of the lower levels of innate investiture. Even at max-burn  the Investiture is leaving the SR, creating an effect based on the metal "key" - and returning right back to the SR. Same with charging a Spike or Metal Mind - the investiture is going into the object, not you.

Maybe when compounding certain metals, you are investing yourself for a very short time - but I feel like continent sized levels are actually a lowball number to reach a majority of the shards power - after all, the Well held so much power that it took 1024 years to charge. . .

[Trusk'our he/him]

10 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

That would still be a bare fraction of a Shard's power, and b=urning it doesn't invest you - it just creates it's effect and continues in the normal investiture cycle. It's one of the reasons that Mistborn are considered one of the lower levels of innate investiture. Even at max-burn  the Investiture is leaving the SR, creating an effect based on the metal "key" - and returning right back to the SR. Same with charging a Spike or Metal Mind - the investiture is going into the object, not you.

Are we sure about that? I was under the impression that Burning a metal Invested you, and you then directed the Investiture to bring about an effect.

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Maybe when compounding certain metals, you are investing yourself for a very short time - but I feel like continent sized levels are actually a lowball number to reach a majority of the shards power - after all, the Well held so much power that it took 1024 years to charge. . .

I don't think it is possible to wield the majority of a Shard's power- I would argue that not even Vessels can do that;

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8702

Questioner

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

Though, I do see your point with the Well; simply trying to hack the system through Compounding or A-duralumin bursts with massive chunks of metal probably isn't going to do the trick of becoming a Sliver.

[Treamayne]

16 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't think it is possible to wield the majority of a Shard's power

Sorry I was unclear / misspoke. I meant available power (that part with resides in the SR and is not assigned and functioning in the realms).

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Alex M

What's the difference between avatar and Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

These are all very weird terms that I'm just using.

*mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing.

An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do.

Brandon Sanderson

*realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies*

A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions  - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

Quote

Zach

Also, would the Elantrians and the Lerasium-mistings be considered Slivers? Or is just the Lord Ruler and Vin Slivers (Via the Well)? Or do you need more power to be considered a Sliver?

Brandon Sanderson

Elantrians are not slivers. Mistborn trilogy spoiler warnings follow! The Lord Ruler was indeed a Sliver. So was Vin. For the rest, I would say probably not.

What defines an actual Sliver of Adonalsium is not as clear-cut as you might think. It's a term that in-universe people who study this have applied to various existences and states. Every single person on the world of Scadrial has a bit of Leras in them—a bit of the power of Preservation. Every single person has a bit of Ati in them. There's a certain threshold where these scholars would call you a Sliver of Adonalsium. But I would say that any regular Misting is probably not a Sliver. A full Lerasium Mistborn is getting closer, but people who have held one of the powers are what would probably be termed a Sliver by the definitions. If you hold all the power that makes you a Shard, but the Lord Ruler held a little bit of it and then let it go. From then on they referred to that change in him—the residue, what was left—as a Sliver. When he held it he became the Shard for a short time, and Vin was a Shard for a short time. After Vin gave up the power, what Kelsier is at the end of the trilogy—that's a Sliver of Adonalsium.

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

Quote

Puck (paraphrased)

Is the definition of Sliver: Someone who has held a large part of the raw form of a Shard temporarily

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That is it.

Vericon 2011 (March 19, 2011)

 

8 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Though, I do see your point with the Well; simply trying to hack the system through Compounding or A-duralumin bursts with massive chunks of metal probably isn't going to do the trick of becoming a Sliver.

What would even be the point? I feel like you are obliquely driving toward facets of SP4 (Have you read SP4?). But becoming a Sliver means you had the power, but no longer do - so it's not like you would have effects like (spoilers below)

Nalthis:

Spoiler

Aglessness or other Heightening like effects.

SP4

Spoiler

Any of the effects experienced by Nomad due to his unique condition

Vin and Rashek both show that, aside from some residual knowledge (which generally fades fast), there isn't much lasting effect from a brief time holding the power - at least not while alive. . .

[Trusk'our he/him]

15 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

What would even be the point? I feel like you are obliquely driving toward facets of SP4 (Have you read SP4?). But becoming a Sliver means you had the power, but no longer do - so it's not like you would have effects like (spoilers below)

Slivers have some residual knowledge of the magic systems associated with the Investiture they held, are more Invested than normal (though clearly not that Invested if they still age) and are more resistant to direct Shardic influence (which may just be a result of their extra Investiture, or perhaps extra strong Connections).

Mostly, it's just kind of cool that they get all those permanent benefits more or less for free, no spikes necessary. . . plus, those benefits seem particularly useful to Hemalurgists (Hemalurgic knowledge and resistance to the Flaw), so. . . yeah, that's why I've been so interested in this particular topic 

[Treamayne]

9 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Slivers have some residual knowledge of the magic systems associated with the Investiture they held, are more Invested than normal (though clearly not that Invested if they still age) and are more resistant to direct Shardic influence (which may just be a result of their extra Investiture, or perhaps extra strong Connections).

May have some knowledge - Vin shows it is not automatic at all. May have resistance to the Flaw - Rashek shows that being pierced with metal (and they weren't even Hemalurgy - just his metalminds as piercings) still opened him to influence and manipulation.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

May have some knowledge - Vin shows it is not automatic at all.

I can't find the WoB at the moment, but I recall there being one that said she'd have to actually use the Well's Investiture before she became a Sliver. She was a Sliver after drawing on the Mists at the end of HoA and holding the Shard of Preservation, but not before, so she wouldn't have that knowledge from what I understand.

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

May have resistance to the Flaw - Rashek shows that being pierced with metal (and they weren't even Hemalurgy - just his metalminds as piercings) still opened him to influence and manipulation.

True, but he was being under the constant effect of Ruin's presence for over 1,000 years and he was pierced by Atium- Ruin's Godmetal (and Trellium hints that being peirced by a Godmetal helps Connect you to that Shard). So I'm not convinced that he's a great example either.

Plus, we have a WoB stating that being a Sliver does help resist the Flaw;

Spoiler

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

ChromiumVoodoopunk

Does Kelsier being a Sliver make him more resistant to Harmony's control through Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

But in the end, being a Sliver probably isn't that important except for staying alive as a Cognitive Shadow.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

A Sliver is created when a person wields enough Investiture. It doesn't have to be full Shard, just a lot, such as from the Well of Ascension. I suspect that if an organization (or someone like Rashek with superpowered Compounding) were to find a way to fill a huge Metalmind (100-1,000 tons amount of metal) to the brim with Investiture, someone could tap it and expand themselves into Sliverhood.

This would be hard to do (and probably not worth doing for most cases), but I think it's hypothetically possible with enough Compounding (or enough Identity-Blanked Feruchemists working in unison over a long enough period of time) and enough metal.

What do you guys think?

I don't agree. Compounding can't make you a Sliver. You need far too much investiture for that, compounding can't provide that because it is limited by how much investiture you get from burning metals. Compared to the power of the Well, which stores so much power that allows you to move planets, shift the crust, open volcanos and change the genetics of people, compounding gives you nothing. Invested arts can't really provide you a significant fraction of Shardic power necessary to make you into a Sliver. 

Spoiler

Alex M

What's the difference between avatar and Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

These are all very weird terms that I'm just using.

*mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing.

[...]

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Zach

Also, would the Elantrians and the Lerasium-mistings be considered Slivers? Or is just the Lord Ruler and Vin Slivers (Via the Well)? Or do you need more power to be considered a Sliver?

Brandon Sanderson

Elantrians are not slivers. Mistborn trilogy spoiler warnings follow! The Lord Ruler was indeed a Sliver. So was Vin. For the rest, I would say probably not.

What defines an actual Sliver of Adonalsium is not as clear-cut as you might think. It's a term that in-universe people who study this have applied to various existences and states. Every single person on the world of Scadrial has a bit of Leras in them—a bit of the power of Preservation. Every single person has a bit of Ati in them. There's a certain threshold where these scholars would call you a Sliver of Adonalsium. But I would say that any regular Misting is probably not a Sliver. A full Lerasium Mistborn is getting closer, but people who have held one of the powers are what would probably be termed a Sliver by the definitions. If you hold all the power that makes you a Shard, but the Lord Ruler held a little bit of it and then let it go. From then on they referred to that change in him—the residue, what was left—as a Sliver. When he held it he became the Shard for a short time, and Vin was a Shard for a short time. After Vin gave up the power, what Kelsier is at the end of the trilogy—that's a Sliver of Adonalsium.

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

 

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Another possibility for becoming a Sliver; what if you had a really, really large chunk of Allomantically viable metal that you pierced your body with, then burned with duralumin to use up all at once?

Brandon said that burning enough Atium won't make you a Sliver, so the same stands for Compounding. Compounding is just Allomancy, it gives you the same amount of investiture as Allomancy does. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Is it possible to become a Sliver if you burn enough atium?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think so.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

 

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

True, but he was being under the constant effect of Ruin's presence for over 1,000 years and he was pierced by Atium- Ruin's Godmetal (and Trellium hints that being peirced by a Godmetal helps Connect you to that Shard). So I'm not convinced that he's a great example either.

Only if that's a Hemalurgic spike. I don't remember empty Trellium working like that. The same goes for Atium or any spike - it has to be Hemalurgic spike. Rashek might be simply insane after living for 1000 years, which allowed Ruin to enter his mind, or he had some greater connection to Ruin because of his actions. Or maybe he had a Hemalurgic spike like Brandon said at the beginning, but Brandon forgot about it. TLM ch 19:

Spoiler

“When Vin, the Ascendant Warrior, was resisting Ruin, she didn’t realize that the little earring she wore linked her to him. It let him get inside her head, speak with her. Connect to her.” He nodded to Wax’s earring. “With a trellium spike, you will be Connected to Trell’s avatar—much as you now are to me. She will be able to sense you, and you her.”

 

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I can't find the WoB at the moment, but I recall there being one that said she'd have to actually use the Well's Investiture before she became a Sliver. She was a Sliver after drawing on the Mists at the end of HoA and holding the Shard of Preservation, but not before, so she wouldn't have that knowledge from what I understand.

I don't remember such WoB and can't find it. Vin held the power of the Well and let it go, it expanded her mind, her soul and vaporized her body - she should be a Sliver. Practice comes from using the power, knowledge comes gradually over time.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Forty-Four - Part One

Subtlety with the Power

The Lord Ruler created koloss, kandra, and Inquisitors during his time holding the power. This took some practice and experimentation, however. As has been explained, holding the power granted some intuitive understanding of how to use it. For instance, he knew how to make Hemalurgic creatures—but he wasn't practiced enough with the specifics at first to know exactly what he wanted to make or what the results of his experimentations would be.

In a similar way, he knew that he could move a planet—and did. With practice, he could have figured out how to shove the planet the right way to place it correctly in orbit. Unfortunately, you can't really experiment with moving a planet around without causing a whole lot of damage.

And so, he could do something as subtle as create three new races—and, with that practice in biology, redesign the world's plants and animals slightly—but could be so far off in the way he shoved the planet about the first time.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Dec. 4, 2009)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Vin's Irony

Vin notes that she held the power of the Well of Ascension, and she describes it to Sazed as "Power that you'll never be able to imagine." I put this in because it made me laugh to think about just how wrong she ended up being. . . .

The Hero of Ages Annotations (July 21, 2009)

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Only if that's a Hemalurgic spike. I don't remember empty Trellium working like that. The same goes for Atium or any spike - it has to be Hemalurgic spike. Rashek might be simply insane after living for 1000 years, which allowed Ruin to enter his mind, or he had some greater connection to Ruin because of his actions.

There's a WoB that says Sazed could have manipulated Miles through his Feruchemical spike-minds, but he simply chose not to;

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40/#e707

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Fifteen

Miles talks with Suit, gets two minders, then burns gold to see two versions of himself

One curiosity of dealing only with Mistings, rather than full Mistborn, was what to do with the less powerful metals. Certainly a Pewterarm or a Tineye can be useful. We've seen them in the series do plenty of interesting things.

But what about a person who can burn only gold? I think there's just one place in the entire first trilogy where someone does it, the time Vin burns it in the first book. (I may have put a second time in; I don't recall.) Gold, as a power, was placed into the schematics to give a clue as to what the Eleventh Metal was. Beyond that, I wanted some of the powers of Allomancy to be more metaphysical, more thoughtful, and less about combat.

I'd already decided that Miles would be a Gold Compounder, capable of the Lord Ruler's healing. That meant he had to be a gold Misting. What would one do, with this power? Ignore it? Was there a way to use it? His nature as a gold Misting is a large part of why Miles is such a thoughtful, introspective person. He is not a good man, but he is a self-reflecting one.

There's more going on here, of course. Pay attention to the name he mentions: Trell. This is one of the gods from the ancient religions Sazed talked about. You might think that the spikes in Miles will let Sazed influence him directly, and they would—except that Sazed has taken a complete "free will is needed" perspective on life. He won't let himself take control of people directly unless they've "given themselves" to him, as most of the kandra have at this point. Even then, he usually only nudges.

But there is something odd going on with Miles.

This may be referring to a Trellium or other Hemalurgic spike(s) in Miles though (as he did have the whole prophecy thing at his death), so this point may be moot.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Brandon said that burning enough Atium won't make you a Sliver, so the same stands for Compounding. Compounding is just Allomancy, it gives you the same amount of investiture as Allomancy does. 

I saw that one too, but you can only burn Atium at a set (although quick) rate and it's very limited in the total amount at any given time. I felt that this alone would have disqualified it from being able to make someone a Sliver.

I am somewhat swayed now to believe that you probably couldn't make someone a Sliver through Compounding or A-duralumin though; there just isn't enough raw power readily available via the Metallic Arts to pull off such a move and you could get most of the benefits of Sliverhood through other, easier means.

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

There's a WoB that says Sazed could have manipulated Miles through his Feruchemical spike-minds, but he simply chose not to;

That is an interesting WoB.

4 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I saw that one too, but you can only burn Atium at a set (although quick) rate and it's very limited in the total amount at any given time. I felt that this alone would have disqualified it from being able to make someone a Sliver.

You can also burn it with duralumin. It's still a tiny bit even if you were to swallow a whole bag of it, like Elend proved. There is simply not enough investiture in Metallic Arts to make you a Sliver.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I am somewhat swayed now to believe that you probably couldn't make someone a Sliver through Compounding or A-duralumin though; there just isn't enough raw power readily available via the Metallic Arts to pull off such a move and you could get most of the benefits of Sliverhood through other, easier means.

Sure, I say something and provide evidence but it's doubtful @alder24 says the same thing, but if he said it it must be true. . .

[Trusk'our he/him]

Just now, Treamayne said:

Sure, I say something and provide evidence but it's doubtful @alder24 says the same thing, but if he said it it must be true. . .

I apologize if it came off that way. Your opinion means just as much to me, it just takes time to come around on my part and internalize someone's arguments most of the time.

When I end up agreeing with someone on these posts (typically to prove I'm a complete crackhead ), it's usually not just because they've provided ample evidence to convince me, but also because I needed time to switch my train of thought in order to accept it- I like the ideas I come up with and it takes time for me to accept they probably won't work.

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I apologize if it came off that way.

No worries, I wasn't really offended or anything (please see my Sig block for color code meanings). Mostly I was mocking how Alder and I tend to post on 80% of the same topics. . .

 

 

PS: The codes are an experiment for now, on how to add context to written communications to convey emotion - since that seems to be a root cause for many misunderstandings.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Sure, I say something and provide evidence but it's doubtful @alder24 says the same thing, but if he said it it must be true. . .

I'm still laughing, I have no witty response.

[Trusk'our he/him]

7 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

No worries, I wasn't really offended or anything (please see my Sig block for color code meanings). Mostly I was mocking how Alder and I tend to post on 80% of the same topics. . .

Ah, that's good to hear 

Where do I find the Sig block to find out the meaning of color coding?

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Ah, that's good to hear

Where do I find the Sig block to find out the meaning of color coding?

Do you not see Signature Blocks? Here's mine:

Spoiler

Quote

 

Color Coded comments may                                          V/R

imply sadness, curiosity, or confusion                               Treamayne

or just be Played for Laughs or Drama                              PS: Need a Reading Recommendation (or have one to share)?     

 

  

I'm not sure what, if any, difference(s) are btwn mobile and PC (since I only use PC) - but on PC you change the setting by going to:

Account Settings > Signature > View Signatures = On

Screentshot:

Spoiler

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Do you not see Signature Blocks? Here's mine:

  Reveal hidden contents

  

Oh, so that's what those are. I usually just overlook what's at the bottom of people's pages .

[Njvodin]

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

I'm still laughing, I have no witty response.

One might say you're Wit-less  

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer he/him]

I'm on the early section of Alloy of Law, so I don't yet understand a lot of terminology in this post. But for now, I'm going to say you can't artificially create Slivers with Feruchemy. Alternatively, this method wouldn't allow a glimmer of Ascension. With most attributes, it seems like the body gradually returns to its state prior to the filling and tapping process. So even if you could hypothetically fill a metalmind the size of a skyscraper, the Investiture wouldn't permanently warp or graft onto the body or soul. And I would probably say a metalmind that big would just be a bare fraction of the Well's Investiture.