How technologically advanced was Threnody when Ambition was splintered?

[Shacharma]

So we have three main examples of threnody's tech level:
1. Silence

2. Canticle

3. Night brigade

A common assumption i'm seeing is that Silence represents the tech level when the Evil fell, with the Night Brigade somehow zooming forward and developing their tech in space or getting it gradually from their employers, and Canticle somehow getting advanced space access and hoverbike tech from someplace else.

But what if tech level there was higher - and a planetary system with Ambition guiding it would be a natural place for tech to race forward. What if tech was on the verge of spaceage withtech of the type before the adaptations to canticle. In this scenario, the evil pushes the planets tech level back to what we see by Silence for the people on the planet, while those who escape to space (/shadesmar) are able to maintain a higher tech base. From there they can adapt it to what we see at canticle, and the night brigade has a much smaller gap to close in order to become an interstellar player?

It also explains why the IRE fear Threnodite activity as early at mistborn era 1.

Am I missing them that disproved this approach?

 

 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

There seems to be a lot of conflicting info about what the actual hell (heh) is going on there.

We've seen with Silence (which is generally agreed to take place between Mistborn Era 1 and TWoK) that they don't even have gunpowder becuase of the Shades. Yet the Canticilian's ancestors had a spaceship which they used to flee Threnody because of 'Squabbling'.

My best guess is that the answers lie with the Chorus, a group of Shades contained within machines and used to create pretty much anything they need besides food and Sunhearts.

My theory is that sometime after Silence, someone discovered how to create a Chorus, probably in an effort to defeat the Shades, thus reducing their threat to the Threnodites, which allowed them to finally have the chance to start wars against each other and kill people without worrying as much about the Shades killing everyone. The Chorus's ability to make things out of thin air probably made this worse. Probably made killing fellow Threnodites more appealing since more kills equal more Shades, more Shades equals more Chorus's, and more Chorus's mean more weapons to kill people with. A war economy that might have gone spiraling out of control.

Their level of technology probably skyrocketed after that point, with them having enough strides in technology that a few of them might have found out how to create spaceships, with the Canticilian's looking a what their people had become and left the planet to avoid the constant wars.

But that's just a theory, and not even an answer to you're original question.

Threnody's tech level after Ambition's Splintering? They were probably still in the Stone Age or very early Iron Age, Ambition was Splintered before Odium got imprisoned on Roshar, which occurred thousands of years before Silence, which takes place 100 years after The Evil took the Homeland. 

Edit: 

As for the Ire's fearof Shades? Because they're just that dangerous. They can kill with a touch, are nearly invulnerable to everything except silver, have a powerful bloodthirst and can seemingly escape their planet despite being Invested Cognitive Shadows. Who wouldn't be afraid of them?

Edited November 21, 2023 by JustQuestin2004

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Shacharma said:

So we have three main examples of threnody's tech level:
1. Silence

2. Canticle

3. Night brigade

A common assumption i'm seeing is that Silence represents the tech level when the Evil fell, with the Night Brigade somehow zooming forward and developing their tech in space or getting it gradually from their employers, and Canticle somehow getting advanced space access and hoverbike tech from someplace else.

But what if tech level there was higher - and a planetary system with Ambition guiding it would be a natural place for tech to race forward. What if tech was on the verge of spaceage withtech of the type before the adaptations to canticle. In this scenario, the evil pushes the planets tech level back to what we see by Silence for the people on the planet, while those who escape to space (/shadesmar) are able to maintain a higher tech base. From there they can adapt it to what we see at canticle, and the night brigade has a much smaller gap to close in order to become an interstellar player?

It also explains why the IRE fear Threnodite activity as early at mistborn era 1.

Am I missing them that disproved this approach?

The Silence is a short while after the humans discovered the Forests of Hell and they've abandoned the Fallen World because of the Evil. And it's a bit before the Night Brigade was created. But they never caused the Evil to fall - during TSM the Evil is still alive. During the abandonment of the Fallen World a portion of Threnodites left the world and settled on Canticle: TSM ch 15:

Quote

“We came from another world,” she said around bites of her food. Odd, how they even ate with gloves on. “Chased by an ancient force known as the Evil.”
“It’s still there,” he said. “On your homeworld. I’ve seen it. Well, the manifestations of it.” Wild, unchained Investiture, come to life with its own alien will—forming mountain-sized figures with impossible, unnerving features and unknowable motivations. Threnody was not a place one visited to relax.
This comment finally threw her for a loop. She almost dropped her sandwich as he said it.
“Strangely, the Chorus—who hold our history—don’t speak of our leaving because of the Evil,” she continued. “No, they say it was the quarreling. The infighting that sprang up among our people. Conflict, hatred. My ancestors wanted to escape that, for it was more pernicious than the Evil itself. Strife destroyed our people.
“During our flight from the Evil, there was more bickering among the people. My group we listened to the preaching of a man: the servant of Adonalsium and the original Lodestar. We left with him to a new land. We chose this.”

We don't know what caused the Evil to appear, or how long after Ambition was Splintered it came, but I think it's a fair assumption that it took some time for the Evil to become a dangerous force, it probably didn't happen right as Ambition was attacked. This is supported by the fact that before Evil appeared, people discovered the second continent already filled with Shades (which was their first contact with Shades, they didn't exist on the Fallen World). This also means that this continent was inhabited prior to Ambition Splintering, but the violent clash between her, Odium and Mercy, messed up this part of the world in the most drastic way, turning its people into Shades. It might be that the investiture of Ambition, some kind of Splinter or something like that, took some time to develop self-awareness or sentience, or maybe someone bonded with it or it corrupted something on the planet, turning into the Evil on the Fallen World. We don't know that but it took some time for it to develop.

However we know more or less the origins of the Nightbrigade. Shortly after the story of Silence, the expedition to recapture the Fallen World happened and it was a bad idea. Those people are the founders of the Night Brigade. WoBs:

Spoiler

Rhapsody (paraphrased)

Will the Threnody book take place in the Homeland?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The book is tentatively called The Dusk Brigade. A group wants to free the homeland of the Evil. It doesn't go well for them. Opening scene is all ships sinking and people washing up on shore.

Footnote: The title of The Dusk Brigade was mistakenly believed to be The Dust Brigade until March 2022.
Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

When does the next Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell happen?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There's a book in that world about an entire expeditionary team that sails forth to destroy the Evil. The book starts with a person holding to the plank of a ship as the entire fleet sails back while it's being destroyed.

Supanova 2017 - Sydney (June 16, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Are you planning on doing more from Threnody?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. I've got a Threnody book. Silence won't be in it. But there's a Threnody book.

Questioner

Like a full size?

Brandon Sanderson

A full size novel, on Threnody. 'Cause there's a group I need to get a book out about because they're relevant later on, that you need to know who they are.

FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)

 

Spoiler

simon_thekillerewok

You've talked about an upcoming book on Threnody called The Dust Brigade. What are we supposed to understand now that we've learned about the Night Brigade?

Brandon Sanderson

I've canonized that as the Night Brigade instead. I like the term "the Dusk Brigade" better, but I already have a character named Dusk, and so I decided to go with a name that's just a little more generic but doesn't copy one of the character names. So The Night Brigade will be the title of the Threnody novel. When and if I get around to writing it, you will find out who the Dusk Brigade is!

Adam Horne

Is this a homage to the Night Watch?

Brandon Sanderson

It is more an homage to the Black Company.

Footnote: The title of The Dusk Brigade was mistakenly believed to be The Dust Brigade until March 2022.
Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022)

 

Either way this is the chronology:

1. Ambition was attacked in the Threnodite system and her investiture had some effect on the people and the planet itself (confirmed by Arcanum Unbounded) - the population of the smaller continent was destroyed as the result of this.
2. People of the Fallen World discovered another continent filled with Shades - the Forests of Hell, Silence's grandmother was among the first forescouts to set foot on this continent.
3. The Evil appeared and killed off most of the inhabitants of the Fallen World. Some escaped to the Forests, others into space.
4. The story of Silence happens. People are talking about reclaiming the Fallen World. 
5. The expedition to reclaim the Fallen World is launched, it goes terribly wrong - the Night Brigade is founded. 
6. Long after this the story of the Sunlit Man happens, the Evil is still on Threnody.

 

Knowing that we can speculate about their technology. Because what was left from the people on the smaller continent after the Shattering was just a bunch of Shades, we can assume that the event was so destructive that most of human technology world-wide was destroyed or hindered in some way. However, people of the Fallen World developed technology advanced enough not only to sail and rediscover the Forests of Hell, but also to escape the Evil on their spaceships into space. That's a lot. Unfortunately we can assume that this technology was lost when the Fallen World fell, because during the times of Silence, they can't even light a fire safely, not to mention use guns and gunpowder (which they have). 

Therefore you are right - the technology to travel into space predates the appearance of the Evil. However we don't know if that predates the Splintering of Ambition. This is unlikely because the book "Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell" happens after Warbreaker but before the SA series:

Spoiler

Questioner

Can you put the Cosmere books into [chronological] order?

Brandon Sanderson

Here is the order that I have publicly confirmed. There are obviously other books and stories fitting in there. For those, you’ll just need to RAFO.

• Elantris
• The Emperor’s Soul
• First Mistborn trilogy (The Final Empire)
• Warbreaker
• Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell
• The Stormlight Archive
• Wax and Wayne Era Mistborn (Alloy of Law)
• Sixth of the Dusk
• Future Mistborn trilogy

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 15, 2016)

This means that since the Splintering of Ambition there was between 10000 (the Shattering of Adonalsium) to 7000 years (Odium arrived or Roshar from Ashyn) before the Evil appeared. I think that the most likely scenario is that whatever technology people had before the Shard fought near Threnody, the disaster that followed destroyed most of it or made it unusable. It then took them thousands of years to develop some form of space travel before the Evil appeared and forced them to use it and escape the planet, settling on Canticle.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

3. The Evil appeared and killed off most of the inhabitants of the Fallen World. Some escaped to the Forests, others into space.

Where is that (Bolded) confirmed? A WoB or a Preview Chapter - cause that is not what the quoted section of Canticle says or implies. . . 

Spoiler

“We came from another world,” she said around bites of her food. Odd, how they even ate with gloves on. “Chased by an ancient force known as the Evil.”
“It’s still there,” he said. “On your homeworld. I’ve seen it. Well, the manifestations of it.” Wild, unchained Investiture, come to life with its own alien will—forming mountain-sized figures with impossible, unnerving features and unknowable motivations. Threnody was not a place one visited to relax.
This comment finally threw her for a loop. She almost dropped her sandwich as he said it.
“Strangely, the Chorus—who hold our history—don’t speak of our leaving because of the Evil,” she continued. “No, they say it was the quarreling. The infighting that sprang up among our people. Conflict, hatred. My ancestors wanted to escape that, for it was more pernicious than the Evil itself. Strife destroyed our people.
“During our flight from the Evil, there was more bickering among the people. My group we listened to the preaching of a man: the servant of Adonalsium and the original Lodestar. We left with him to a new land. We chose this.”

Based on the tech level of Shadows fo Silence in the Forests of Hell, it seems much more likely that the survivrs fled Fallen to Hell. Some time later, Evil was encroaching on Hell ("Chasing the survivors") but the group that left did so by ship (some kind, implied to be a Space Ship, implied to have come from Zellion - not Threnodite Tech) from Hell - not from the Fallen World directly into space. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Treamayne
Quote/Clarification

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Where is that (Bolded) confirmed? A WoB or a Preview Chapter - cause that is not what the quoted section of Canticle says or implies. . . 

  Hide contents

“We came from another world,” she said around bites of her food. Odd, how they even ate with gloves on. “Chased by an ancient force known as the Evil.”
“It’s still there,” he said. “On your homeworld. I’ve seen it. Well, the manifestations of it.” Wild, unchained Investiture, come to life with its own alien will—forming mountain-sized figures with impossible, unnerving features and unknowable motivations. Threnody was not a place one visited to relax.
This comment finally threw her for a loop. She almost dropped her sandwich as he said it.
“Strangely, the Chorus—who hold our history—don’t speak of our leaving because of the Evil,” she continued. “No, they say it was the quarreling. The infighting that sprang up among our people. Conflict, hatred. My ancestors wanted to escape that, for it was more pernicious than the Evil itself. Strife destroyed our people.
“During our flight from the Evil, there was more bickering among the people. My group we listened to the preaching of a man: the servant of Adonalsium and the original Lodestar. We left with him to a new land. We chose this.”

Based on the tech level of Shadows fo Silence in the Forests of Hell, it seems much more likely that the survivrs fled Fallen to Hell. Some time later, Evil was encroaching on Hell ("Chasing the survivors") but the group that left did so by ship (some kind, implied to be a Space Ship, implied to have come from Zellion - not Threnodite Tech) from Hell - not from the Fallen World directly into space. 

Fair point. I think both interpretations are valid. I will point out that we know of only one instance of the Evil attacking people, and that was when the Fallen World fell.  Thus in my opinion it's for now more likely that those are the same event as we have no indication of the Evil attacking the Forests of Hell. However the words of the Chorus seem to suggest your version is more plausible (but it still can be referencing the same event). Either way both versions are possible in my opinion. ch 22:

Quote

“We fled the Evil,” the ghost said in a whispering voice, like rustling papers. Another appeared over its shoulder, just a vague, smoky outline of a person with red eyes. “Then we fled Threnody. We are your Chorus."

Moreover both the inhabitants of Canticle and the Chorus are well familiar with Shades and their behavior, which seems to suggest that the companions of Zellion escaped Threnody while knowing what Shades are. This is still possible when the Evil first appear, the news about forescouts dealing with Shades might be widespread on the Fallen World, however it seems far more likely that this requires some long time familiarity with them. To add more, dead Threnodites from Canticle are being turned into Shades - which is exclusive to the Forests of Hell and it didn't happen on the Fallen World. So you probably right.

However it seems that the Forests of Hell weren't overrun by the Evil like the Fallen World. Nomad was there and saw Shades and the Evil. Why would he go there if there were no people on the planet?

 

What's about "[the ship] implied to have come from Zellion?" Zellion was a person, not a place. While the name itself is Yolish in origin, this doesn't mean that the person wasn't a Threnodite, using Threnodite tech, which they might simply develop later, after the events of the Silence and the Night Brigade. There is plenty of time for that.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

What's about "[the ship] implied to have come from Zellion?" Zellion was a person, not a place. While the name itself is Yolish in origin, this doesn't mean that the person wasn't a Threnodite, using Threnodite tech, which they might simply develop later, after the events of the Silence and the Night Brigade. There is plenty of time for that.

Correct, it does not mean that - but it does imply that:

Spoiler

TSM Ch 11:

Quote

“Adonalsium, eh?” Nomad said. “By the way, how’d a bunch of Threnodites end up worshipping the father god of an entirely different planet?”

“We learned before our exodus,” Confidence said. “We were those who believed the words of the first Lodestar. We lived in Hell itself and were led by our faith to a new land.”

“One that’s perpetually on fire?” Nomad asked.

“Adonalsium,” Contemplation said, “will remember our plight eventually…”

 

"We lived in Hell" implies the refugees did, but not Zellion.  Then Zellion arrives teaching of Adonalsium (a diety they didn't have on Threnody) and having a ship to take people off-world. 

The text might not say Zallion is a Worldhopper, but it certainly imples OG Zellion was not a Threnodite (or was one who Worldhopped, then returned with information and technology then-unknown on Threnody). 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

However it seems that the Forests of Hell weren't overrun by the Evil like the Fallen World.

Concur - I did not mean to implyit was. I only meant to note that if the Constructs that Nomad mentioned were sent to attack Hell (or just wandered that way accidentally) that might explain why Rebeke said:

Quote

“We came from another world, chased by an ancient force known as the Evil.”

But more likely it was just a lingering worry that the Evil would find them on Hell when they decided to leave with Zellion to escape Politics (a far worse Evil than a Splinter or Avatar). 

[alder24]

24 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

"We lived in Hell" implies the refugees did, but not Zellion.  Then Zellion arrives teaching of Adonalsium (a diety they didn't have on Threnody) and having a ship to take people off-world. 

The text might not say Zallion is a Worldhopper, but it certainly imples OG Zellion was not a Threnodite (or was one who Worldhopped, then returned with information and technology then-unknown on Threnody)

But the text doesn't imply he came with a ship, he could come via CR instead and the ship was native to Threnody.

[Treamayne]

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But the text doesn't imply he came with a ship, he could come via CR instead and the ship was native to Threnody.

Agreed - that's possible. I just find it to be far less likely and it wasn't the . . . feel that I got from the text on the first read through. 

Until we have WoBs, I doubt there is enough data to confirm either interpretation.

[Could Be Fire]

On 11/21/2023 at 7:51 AM, alder24 said:

To add more, dead Threnodites from Canticle are being turned into Shades - which is exclusive to the Forests of Hell and it didn't happen on the Fallen World

The Shades on Canticle are actually really really weird. Dead people turning into Shades isn't a Forest of Hell thing, it's a Theorndite thing. Beyond that, Silence says that Shades only form when the cause of death is Shade. Silence even kills all those men without turning them into Shades. I assumed the Forests of Hell were overrun because that was where the first Shade appeared during the Odium/Ambition/Mercy battle and it was a zombie apocalypse sort of situation. So why did the first refugees on Canticle turn into Shades? Presumably, they didn't bring a Shade on their spaceship that they allowed to kill them haha. Also, The Chorus is very explicit that if the Theorndites there don't give themselves to the Sun in death they will rise as Shades. But then we see people die during the events of Sunlit Man without Shades forming which directly contradicts that so it's just all weird.

Despite the whole, how did we even get Shades on Canticle thing, I think that the whole cultural view of the people of Union to the Shades is really interesting because while it doesn't match Silence's attitude toward Shades it does match the very sparse hints we've had of Nazh's (who timeline-wise kinda has to be from pre-Evil Homeland) view on Shades/Cognative Shadows.

Specifically, Nazh says in Secret History “One doesn’t merely decide to become a shadow!…It’s an important rite! With requirements and traditions.” [Secret History]. This whole, respected part of society/cultural institution vibes gels with what we see of the Chorus.

If Homeland had some form of controlled Shades in a way like the Choruses it would explain things like Nazh's views on Shades. It would help explain how the refugees were able to corral the first Shades into the Chorus and where the idea to get them to magically produce items came from. It could even explain where the OG Zellion cult on Theorndy got their spaceship from which goes to address the subtopic here.

The differences between Shades on Canticale and Shades in the Forest of Hell also imply that something external impacts how Shades behave/form. So maybe Shades in Homeland acted differently? You could even springboard there to thinking about how the "Evil" might be related to a change that external factor that changed how Shades acted a la the Reod but this is already a huge ball of tinfoil so I'll stop here.

 

[alder24]

5 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

The Shades on Canticle are actually really really weird. Dead people turning into Shades isn't a Forest of Hell thing, it's a Theorndite thing.

Yes, it's a Threnodite thing. BUT Shades didn't exist on the Fallen World continent, only in the Forests of Hell. People on the Fallen World didn't turn into Shades when they died. Only when the Forests of Hell were discovered, only on that continent, did people start turning into Shades. People killed by Shades are turned into Shades - yes. Because Threnodites on Canticle know stories about Shades and Hell of Threnody, this means that those Threnodite left Threnody after the discovery of the Forests of Hell. I mentioned it only to figure out the timeline. 

6 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

So why did the first refugees on Canticle turn into Shades? Presumably, they didn't bring a Shade on their spaceship that they allowed to kill them haha.

Good question. What if they didn't turn into Shades? The Chorus claims they are not Shades, TSM ch 22:

Quote

“Shades do not remember,” another said. “We are not shades. We are the Chorus of the people.”

 

6 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

Also, The Chorus is very explicit that if the Theorndites there don't give themselves to the Sun in death they will rise as Shades. But then we see people die during the events of Sunlit Man without Shades forming which directly contradicts that so it's just all weird.

Yeah, those who die are drawn into Reliquary and join the Chorus, presumably.

6 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

Specifically, Nazh says in Secret History “One doesn’t merely decide to become a shadow!…It’s an important rite! With requirements and traditions.” [Secret History]. This whole, respected part of society/cultural institution vibes gels with what we see of the Chorus.

If Homeland had some form of controlled Shades in a way like the Choruses it would explain things like Nazh's views on Shades. It would help explain how the refugees were able to corral the first Shades into the Chorus and where the idea to get them to magically produce items came from.

I don't agree that the Homeland had Shades because the information we have from the Threnody book specifically imply that Shades were first discovered in the Forests of Hell and no similar entity existed in the Fallen World. But what I think is that the people that first arrived on Canticle turned themselves into Shades, into Chorus, by using those "rites, requirements and traditions" to create a somewhat self-aware version of Shades, more safe, more controllable, more "proper" Cognitive Shadows, that remember and can help.

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

The differences between Shades on Canticale and Shades in the Forest of Hell also imply that something external impacts how Shades behave/form. So maybe Shades in Homeland acted differently? You could even springboard there to thinking about how the "Evil" might be related to a change that external factor that changed how Shades acted a la the Reod but this is already a huge ball of tinfoil so I'll stop here.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't agree that the Homeland had Shades because the information we have from the Threnody book specifically imply that Shades were first discovered in the Forests of Hell and no similar entity existed in the Fallen World. But what I think is that the people that first arrived on Canticle turned themselves into Shades, into Chorus, by using those "rites, requirements and traditions" to create a somewhat self-aware version of Shades, more safe, more controllable, more "proper" Cognitive Shadows, that remember and can help.

Or, it could be that, at the time of SfSinFoH those rites had not yet been developed, but they eventually figured out how to use rites to prevent a person's cognitive shadow from becoming a Shade by making it a Chorus instead. Silence's grandmother already implies there are ways to ensure at least some measure of memory can remain when a Shade is formed - the Rites might be an extrapolation of that once it was understood. 

 

[Could Be Fire]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Or, it could be that, at the time of SfSinFoH those rites had not yet been developed, but they eventually figured out how to use rites to prevent a person's cognitive shadow from becoming a Shade by making it a Chorus instead. Silence's grandmother already implies there are ways to ensure at least some measure of memory can remain when a Shade is formed - the Rites might be an extrapolation of that once it was understood. 

That's a really good point!

SfSinFoH (which is like the worst cosmere acronym lol) is relatively speaking right after the Evil exists. Silence's grandparents are said to be even the first people at all the discover the Forests of Hell so we're talking a two-threee generations at most. We know the Canticle group said they fled post-Evil running from infighting, not just fleeing Evil and on the scale of the Cosmere a hundred years isn't a long time. Maybe post-SfSinFOH other groups figure out how to start to control the Shades like Silence does which sparks a new magitech revolution, inspiring the Night Brigade to go try to re-take homeland with their new abilities and causing the infighting which results in the OG Zellion leading his new cult away. But I do think it's a reinvention or rediscovery of how to specifically deal with FoH shades because Nazh is from pre-evil Homeland and knows about Shades.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't agree that the Homeland had Shades because the information we have from the Threnody book specifically imply that Shades were first discovered in the Forests of Hell and no similar entity existed in the Fallen World.

What are the specific lines/WoB on Homeland not having Shades?  Checking my copy of Arcanum the only relevant line is see is that the people refer to the Forests as "where the shadows of the Dead make their home" which doesn't necessarily mean they only exist there and could just be about how they're rampant there.

I do agree that Homeland probably didn't have three rules/free-roaming/FoH Shades but I think that they must of had some form of Cognitive Shadows. It is clear that any Therondite born after Ambition's death has a special soul that is more easily invested upon death, so something should have been happening to their souls even on Homeland pre-Evil. Like Nomand first thinks they must have left Threondy before Ambition died for the planet to not be overrun with Shades. And it makes Nazh's attitude toward Shades make sense.

We've already seen lots of different forms of Shades (Threondite Cognitive Shadows) so far so a new species for the Homeland pre-evil isn't impossible:

1. The classic FoH Shades which are white in the daylight, follow the three simple rules, do the no eyes/green eyes/red eyes shift upon level of focus on the physical realm, and appear to have no memories. They seem to be formed specifically by being killed by another classic FoH Shades in an infection-style spread.

2. Silence's grandmom, follows the simple rules like a FoH Shade and was implied to have formed by a Shade death, but seems to have some remnant of individual memory. She also has a more individual form, which Silence attributes to her being a more recent shade. Silence's grandmother seems to be very willful so just could be the result of a very strong Intent while dying, maybe all FoH shades could be like that with a strong enough person.

3. The Chorus or Canticale Shades. Only seen with red eyes despite no blood being shed, which is different from FoH Shades. Have a collective but not individual memory. If not turned into Sunhearts, any Threondite descendent who dies on Canticle will form some form of a Shade. Canticle Shades don't free roam and are drawn into the Chorus [Zeal says "sometimes after a death, we see mist gather and move to the Reliquary." in Sunlit Man] in a process that seems suspiciously similar to the Father Machine in Yumi. But the Chorus says if enough Shades form, they will overrun the planet so maybe the Reliquary's draw has a limit. Can also generate metal objects a la Spren if given instructions, which is not seen in any other Shade type so far and seems to surprise Nomad who has seen both Night Brigade and Therondy Shades.

4. Night Brigade Shades. Glowing red eyes like Canticale shades but free-roaming like FoH shades. Also much more individualistic than any other Shades seen, with their forms having "the uniforms they died in". Can obey verbal (and some people's non-verbal) instructions.

5. Whatever Shades Nazh grew up with pre-Evil, which seem to be a respected part of the culture (unlike FoH Shades) but are only formed through specific rituals (unlike Canitcale Shades). These might be the same as Night Brigade-style Shades since no information distinguishes them yet. Nazh also uses the term shadows not Shades.

6. "Deepest Ones": Bigger/"monstrous". Exist on FoH where even Silence fears them above all. Possibly also exist on post-Evil Homeland since the Night Brigade book is supposed to feature them. On instinct and name, I got similar vibes to Thunderclasts so maybe formed out of very old Shades or groups of Shades but overall a big mystery.

We still don't know what exactly causes the difference in formation other than FoH shades seem to "trump" other kinds  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If I had to completely throw a more complete theory at the wall it would be that on Homeland pre-Evil most Threondite shades were drawn into Reliquaries/Chorsuses/Some kind of containment with a few being turned into more Kelsier-like cognitive shadows through specific rites/rituals to form Night Brigade style Shades. Maybe some of the Reliquary system is still working because nobody in the Forests is worried about forming Shades through non-Shade death but their invested Shadows post-death have to be going somewhere. Maybe, whatever way the Homeland ppl had of controlling Shade formation either broke or was lost (possibly deliberately) as part of the "Evil" which is why the refugees living in the Forests don't have any sort of tame Shades/Shadows. There's also probably something with the red eyes/green eyes and how Red = Corrupted Investiture, maybe Threodite shadows formed on Homeland were uncorrupted (green-eyed only) before the Evil and were less aggressive? If they could produce objects like the Chorus it could also explain where Zellion's group got their spaceship from. It's also very interesting that the more "controlled' shades (Night Brigade/Chorus) we see all have red eyes.

 

 

[alder24]

48 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

What are the specific lines/WoB on Homeland not having Shades?  Checking my copy of Arcanum the only relevant line is see is that the people refer to the Forests as "where the shadows of the Dead make their home" which doesn't necessarily mean they only exist there and could just be about how they're rampant there.

I don't have access to the book, but this was the impression I got when reading it. That's why they called those forests "of hell." And from Coppermind:

Quote

Originating on the smaller of Threnody's two continents,^[1] the shades rendered all predators on the continent extinct due to the violation of the Simple Rules.^[2] The shades were first discovered by the Forescouts, adventurers who called these lands the Forests of Hell due to the shades. 

 

51 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

I think that they must of had some form of Cognitive Shadows. It is clear that any Therondite born after Ambition's death has a special soul that is more easily invested upon death, so something should have been happening to their souls even on Homeland pre-Evil.

Why? Yes, Threnodites are more invested, they have innate investiture (1 BEU) in them with which there is something wrong. That's why they turn into Shades. But only after being killed by a Shade. If there were no Shades on the Fallen World, no Shades would be made there their souls would just fade into the Beyond. It's just that simple. We don't know more than that, we don't know if people randomly turn into Shades or can turn without being killed by a Shade. But Silence never feared that those killed by her will randomly turn into Shades, so I think we can safely assume this doesn’t happen at all.

Spoiler

Questioner

So the Threnodites are described as having a smokey shadow something to their soul; we don't really know what that is. Is it more similar to the black smoke that comes from Awakened objects in Yumi and Nightblood? Or is it more like Midnight Essence in Tress?

Brandon Sanderson

It is more like Breath than it is like either one of those. More like Breath, but something's a little wrong with it

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

It also requires "right circumstances" - like being killed by a Shade for example? TSM ch 7:

Quote

“That I did pick out,” he said, thoughtful. “Threnodites. Don’t they persist when they’re killed?”
They turn into shades under the right circumstances, the hero explains to his dull-minded valet, who really should remember almost being eaten by one.
“Right,” he said. “Green eyes, then red when they want to feed. Complete lack of memories. I feel like we would have seen those already. Shades come out in the darkness, and we’ve been in nothing but darkness since getting here.”
Perhaps this group split off before the Shard’s death—and the event’s aftereffects—took them.

 

57 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

1. The classic FoH Shades which are white in the daylight, follow the three simple rules, do the no eyes/green eyes/red eyes shift upon level of focus on the physical realm, and appear to have no memories. They seem to be formed specifically by being killed by another classic FoH Shades in an infection-style spread.

2. Silence's grandmom, follows the simple rules like a FoH Shade and was implied to have formed by a Shade death, but seems to have some remnant of individual memory. She also has a more individual form, which Silence attributes to her being a more recent shade. Silence's grandmother seems to be very willful so just could be the result of a very strong Intent while dying, maybe all FoH shades could be like that with a strong enough person.

Truthfully we don't know if Silence's grandmother is special or every Shade is capable of behaving like this. It was said earlier in the book that older Shades lose their human shape. Nobody would be insane enough to keep a Shade in their house, nobody would try to interact with it like Silence does. People coexist with Shades for a  relatively short time, only 3-4 generations - that's short enough for people not to figure out that their close ones turned into Shades might behave differently than other Shades, and that there is something more to Shades than known of. At least I find it possible. It also might be because of perception - Silence's grandmother might have been shaped by perception of Silence to behave/look like this, because Silence thinks about her grandmother often. Yumi spoilers:

Spoiler

Just like Nightmares on Komashi. The circumstances are quite similar - investiture left alone, no Shardic overview, CS which by nature are susceptible to perception. The only missing piece of information is identity - we don't know if Shades are Identityless like Nightmares are. This would also explain why the Night Brigade Shades look like this - perception Shaped them, proper Connection allowed to command them (like Hemalurgic constructs). 

Spoiler

ArgentSun

The way Painter transforms nightmares into other things is reminiscent of the way spren are affected by perception - only much more extreme. Is perception (and the way the world is set up) the only important factor here, or is Painter using Investiture too somehow?

Brandon Sanderson

What's going on here is not Painter using Investiture really. It's the fact that the nightmares have less control over them from another source. Spren have an oversight from Honor, Cultivation, and Odium, and this is kind of leaving them less at the whims of other people's perception. The nightmares do not have that. I'm not going to say they don't have it at all, but Painter is not using Investiture, but the nightmares are specifically more susceptible to what's going on. So for instance, a good way to answer this is if he went and did this for a spren he would not have the same level of power.

Secret Project #3 Reveal and Livestream (March 22, 2022)

 

What I want to say is that we don't know enough to make such conclusions. We don't know if all those Shades you listed are different and distinct from each other (except for the Chorus) or just one and the same regular Shades. Shades might be simply capable of more than known, they might be more susceptible to perception than normal CS, they might be more self-aware than we think, they might be simply more than just mindless ghosts. We don't know.

2 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

But the Chorus says if enough Shades form, they will overrun the planet so maybe the Reliquary's draw has a limit

No, the Chorus said, ch 22:

Quote

“But others,” another said, pressing against the glass, “must be given to the sun. This is the sun’s land.”
“Do this not,” the first said, “and shades will overrun the world. Such a small planet. They will take everything. They would rip and destroy you.”

Which is contradicted by observations - dead people don't turn into Shades, they are sometimes seen to be drawn into Reliquary:

Quote

“We think that maybe,” Zeal said, “people who die without being given to the sun are drawn to join the Chorus. They say that shades will rise from those who die and don’t become sunhearts, but we rarely experience that—instead, sometimes after a death, we see mist gather and move to the Reliquary.”

It may mean what you said, but also it can be that the Chorus said "all who die not from the sun will be turned into Shades" which doesn't happen at all. Now, after Nomad left, they have a way to make Sunhearts with no sacrifices, I doubt that they will overwhelm Reliquaries or suddenly start turning into Shades.

1 hour ago, Could Be Fire said:

And it makes Nazh's attitude toward Shades make sense.

1 hour ago, Could Be Fire said:

5. Whatever Shades Nazh grew up with pre-Evil, which seem to be a respected part of the culture (unlike FoH Shades) but are only formed through specific rituals (unlike Canitcale Shades). These might be the same as Night Brigade-style Shades since no information distinguishes them yet. Nazh also uses the term shadows not Shades.

I want to only point out that Nazh never mentioned Shades by name in SH. He was talking about becoming "a shadow", which doesn't mean a Shade-like Cognitive Shadow specifically. He is a very knowledgeable, Cosmere-aware companion of Khriss, he might have a detailed knowledge of mechanics of becoming a Cognitive Shadow, not native to Threnody. Or he might have a Threnody-originated knowledge of becoming a proper, Kelsier-like CS on Threnody without becoming a Shade. Once again, we don't know enough, there are many possibilities to consider.

1 hour ago, Could Be Fire said:

6. "Deepest Ones": Bigger/"monstrous". Exist on FoH where even Silence fears them above all. Possibly also exist on post-Evil Homeland since the Night Brigade book is supposed to feature them. On instinct and name, I got similar vibes to Thunderclasts so maybe formed out of very old Shades or groups of Shades but overall a big mystery.

We have no idea what that is. We can't say they are CS/Shades at all.

1 hour ago, Could Be Fire said:

If I had to completely throw a more complete theory at the wall it would be that on Homeland pre-Evil most Threondite shades were drawn into Reliquaries/Chorsuses/Some kind of containment

I highly disagree. Where are those Reliquaries? People should have them, people should use them, talk about them, try to make them work or have them working as nothing really changed for the majority of the population of the Forests. If those worked on the Fallen World, they would still work in the Forests - most people aren't killed by Shades. They would be present in the Forests - but there is a total lack of those items, no mention, not a single thought given to them. They don't exit on Threnody during Silence's times.

Reliquaries on Canticle prevents people from turning into Shade - Reliquaries in the Forests would also prevent people from turning into Shades. Those things would be the first objects taken to the first settlement in the Forests. The lack of those proves they didn't exist pre-Evil.

1 hour ago, Could Be Fire said:

a few being turned into more Kelsier-like cognitive shadows through specific rites/rituals

That's possible.

1 hour ago, Could Be Fire said:

to form Night Brigade style Shades.

They don't look very "Kelsier-like" to me.

1 hour ago, Could Be Fire said:

Maybe some of the Reliquary system is still working because nobody in the Forests is worried about forming Shades through non-Shade death but their invested Shadows post-death have to be going somewhere.

Even you quoted earlier that "sometimes after a death, we see mist gather and move to the Reliquary." It may mean that not every time a Threnodite on Canticle dies they will turn into Shade/Chorus.

Threnodites don't turn themselves into Shade just with the amount of investiture they have in their soul. They need to be invested in the moment of death, like most Shadows, and this little corrupted part of their soul, this little "wrongness" plays a key role of drawing investiture in if it's activated (speculation). A normal Threnodite from Canticle has only 1 BEU, not 2000 like Returned. If nothing invests them when they die, they will just fade into the Beyond like every other person in Cosmere.

What we know is:

1. On Threnody you need to be killed by a Shade to be turned into a Shade.
2. On Canticle people are drawn into Reliquary and join the Chorus, which is sometimes visible, and no Shades are made. This apparently prevents Canticle from being overrun by Shades.

1 hour ago, Could Be Fire said:

Maybe, whatever way the Homeland ppl had of controlling Shade formation either broke or was lost (possibly deliberately) as part of the "Evil" which is why the refugees living in the Forests don't have any sort of tame Shades/Shadows.

This makes even less sense as this ability/tech would be the first thing the Forescouts would take with them into the Forests before the Evil even appeared. This would be used all the time on the smaller continent.

2 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

There's also probably something with the red eyes/green eyes and how Red = Corrupted Investiture, maybe Threodite shadows formed on Homeland were uncorrupted (green-eyed only) before the Evil and were less aggressive?

Every Threnodite has something wrong with their soul, every Threnodite can turn into a Shade in the right circumstances. The corruption is there.

2 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

If they could produce objects like the Chorus it could also explain where Zellion's group got their spaceship from

They don't need Chorus for that. Firstly, it's more likely that Zellion led Threnodies to Canticle after the story of Silence took place, not before (based on previous posts). Secondly, the Chorus only manufactures, they still need to make schematics and blueprints - if they can make those, they can just make the spacecraft themselves, there is no mystery here. The Chorus on Canticle said they started building ships on the planet based on the ships that brought them there BEFORE they died! Not after. So regular Threnodites were capable of constructing advanced flying ships made probably from scraps of the spaceships. You really don't need any Chorus to create a spaceship, just a bit of ingenuity. ch 22:

Quote

“We were the first who died on Canticle,” a shade whispered to him. “The first to live in this land and devise the designs of flight—based on the ships that brought us here. But then we died and rose as shades. Remembering.”

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

because Nazh is from pre-evil Homeland and knows about Shades.

You are going to have to cite a source here, because that is conjecture as far as I can tell. The closest we get is Coppermind:

Spoiler

The respect with which he speaks of shades suggests he might've lived there prior to Evil's coming to the Homeland, but it is unknown when he left,

But whoever wrote that actually makes a mistake, because in M:SH, the quote is (Ch 3-2):

Spoiler

“One doesn’t merely decide to become a shadow!” the man exclaimed. He had a faintly strange accent, one Kelsier couldn’t place. “It’s an important rite! With requirements and traditions. This . . . this is . . .” He threw his hands into the air. “This is a bother.”

He says "Shadow" (Presumably Cognitive Shadow") not "Shade" (yes,  know they are related, but there are significant differences as well) - So at this point at least, we have no confirmation that he even knows the Simple Rules.

You may be right - or - He may have left so long ago, that it was before the Evil and the migration - or - He may actually know Shades post-Silence. My point is, the timeline is very murky. We know (references at bottom):

• That Silence comes after Era 1:
• Nazh Meets Kelsier in SH
  • And specifically calls him a Shadow (not a Shade)
• Kelsier overhears the Ire discussing Threnodites (not Shades)
  • Their "Seeker Fabrial" Failed to find Kell - a Cognitive Shadow
• By the time of Era 2, he appears to have learned about Shade-based Fabrials

So, there is no indication that his understanding of Shades predates the events in Silence that I can find.

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Can you put the Cosmere books into [chronological] order?

Brandon Sanderson

Here is the order that I have publicly confirmed. There are obviously other books and stories fitting in there. For those, you’ll just need to RAFO.

• Elantris
• The Emperor’s Soul
• First Mistborn trilogy (The Final Empire)
• Warbreaker
• Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell
• The Stormlight Archive
• Wax and Wayne Era Mistborn (Alloy of Law)
• Sixth of the Dusk
• Future Mistborn trilogy

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 15, 2016)

M:SH Ch 5-2:

Quote

“My foresight does not seem so foolish now, does it, Captain? The powers of Threnody wish to join the main stage. Engage the device.”

<Snip>

“Nobody from Threnody within a day’s march of here.

 

 

3 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

What are the specific lines/WoB on Homeland not having Shades? 

Here are the references I could find:

Spoiler

AU Thredonite Essay:

Quote

 I have concluded that some measure of Investiture must have existed on this planet before the battle between Shards. However, the waves of destruction—carrying ripped-off chunks of Ambition’s power—twisted both the people and the planet of Threnody.

The planet is home to two separate continents. The larger of the two has been abandoned to something known as “the Evil,” a force that even Nazh can speak of only in vague terms. A creeping darkness, a terrible force that consumed the entirety of the continent, feasting upon the souls of men. I do not know how much of this is metaphoric, and how much literal. Expeditions sent from the smaller continent to explore have vanished, and the place is dangerous to visit even in the Cognitive Realm.

The smaller continent is a frontier, mostly unexplored and unnamed, with several bastions of civilization.

<snip>

Or perhaps they fear the spirits of the dead. People on Threnody are afflicted with a particular ailment that—upon death—sometimes turns them into what we call a Cognitive Shadow.

So, implied, but only because they are discussed in the "smaller" continent section (not definitively named as only there).

SfSinFoH: (a.k.a. DW3 - first printed in Dangerous Women Anthology Vol 3)

Quote

But she was a Forescout—the surname taken by her grandparents and the others who had left Homeland first and explored this continent. Yes, she was a Forescout, and she’d be damned before she’d let anyone know how absolutely powerless she felt much of the time.

<Snip>

“Forescout blood, stubborn to the last breath. They say your grandparents were the first of the first. The first people to come scout this continent, the first to homestead the Forests … the first to stake a claim on hell itself.”

“Don’t call the Forests that. This is my home.”

“But it is how men saw this land, before the Evil. Doesn’t that make you curious? Hell, land of the damned, where the shadows of the dead made their home. 

So, the original story makes it fairly clear that, before the Evil came to Homeland - the Shades were only found in Hell.

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Treamayne said:

You are going to have to cite a source here, because that is conjecture as far as I can tell.

[...]

You may be right - or - He may have left so long ago, that it was before the Evil and the migration - or - He may actually know Shades post-Silence. My point is, the timeline is very murky. We know (references at bottom):

I was looking at that yesterday and I think it's fair to assume Nazh is from the pre-Evil Threnody (that doesn't mean his knowledge of Shades is also pre-Evil, he might have visited Threnody several times since then). As per WoB you posted (which might have changed since then as Brandon constantly tweeks his timeline to fit all books better) The Threnody story happens before SA but after Warbreaker and after Mistborn Era 1:

• First Mistborn trilogy (The Final Empire)
• Warbreaker
• Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell
• The Stormlight Archive

We know SA happens around 340 years after Mistborn Era 1 (because Era 2 takes place in between SA 5 and 6). But we know Warbreaker is "a few generations" before SA. So around 100 years ago? 200 at most? 

The Evil appeared 4 generations ago, Silence grandmother was one of the first Forescouts to set her foot in the Forests of Hell, before the Evil appeared. That would be less than 100 years before Silence's story, 60-80 I would guess, the middle point is 70 years. This means that even if the Forests of Hell story takes place at the same time as Warbreaker, there is still 70-170 years of gap between the destruction of the Homeland and Era 1 - and Nazh is already with Khriss before the Evil appeared, it seems like they know each other well and have traveled for some time already, so he is probably even older. Nazh is definitely from the pre-Evil Threnody based on that. 

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

How long after Warbreaker does Way of Kings take place? I know you usually don't finalize timeline details until they actually are stated in-book, but are you willing to say how far apart the books are, in the current plans?

Brandon Sanderson

I have Warbreaker happening a few generations before, right now.  However, I'm very likely to move Elantris up in time, so it's a little in the air at the moment.

LewsTherinTelescope

Thanks! I assume asking why Elantris being moved affects how far apart Warbreaker and Way of Kings are is a behind-the-scenes thing and/or RAFO?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it does.  The big linchpin is going to be when I need Sel and Scadrial to align when big crossovers start happening.  We'll know in a few years; there are things I intend to write that I could imagine needing to change, after they're finished, that will influence the timeline structure.

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 5, 2020)

 

This makes me wonder why the Ire are worried about Threnody, have guards in the system and have devices capable of detecting Threnodite Shadows, if at the time of SH the Forests of Hell and Shades were not discovered yet? The timeline doesn't fit (if it's still accurate). This is a strong suggestion that Threnodites have a way of creating CS pre-Evil, probably some kind of Kelsier-like, self-aware Cognitive Shadows, not Shade-like, which is in line with Nazh's words. But then it makes me think that the Evil isn't some kind of "natural" entity, rather a failed experiment, something like what happened on Ashyn or on another planet (spoilers, you know which one), and it just went out of control, swallowing the entire continent. There is no proof for that but for me it makes sense that they were pushing the limits of discovery too far, in pursuit of becoming a significant power, to make a weapon, or to make a perfect Shadow maybe? 

[Treamayne]

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

have devices capable of detecting Threnodite Shadows

This is what I mentioned above. We, the fans, always assumed that was what they were trying to detect - but when you look at M:SH, it does not say that. Brandon is tricksy, and the wording matters. I'll just repost here, so nobody has to check each spoiler above to find the one I mean:

Spoiler

 M:SH Ch 5-2:

Quote

“My foresight does not seem so foolish now, does it, Captain? The powers of Threnody wish to join the main stage. Engage the device.”

<Snip>

“Nobody from Threnody within a day’s march of here.

 

Taken in light of the timeline, I now think:

• The Clash between three shards was a loooonnnggggg time ago
• Investiture without a vessel will seek Sapience (or at least sentience), but this takes a long time
• Ire specifically mention "Powers" and "nobody" (possibly meaning a mortal being)
  • and specifically do not say anything about cognitive shadows or shades (Jossed by my stupidity, see below - thanks @alder24)
  • and their device specifically fails to find a cognitive shadow
• Therefore: I think that at this point The Evil was just beginning to gain sentience, and just beginning to influence the homeland (much like Unmade)
  • The Ire were protecting against mortal agents of the growing threat the Evil represented (especially if I am right about it becoming a Splinter of the combined chuncks torn from both Ambition and Odium)
• Therefore: Nazh was from Pre-Evil Threnody
  • Which may or may not have already had a Manifestation of Investiture that dealt with Cognitive Shadows (seeking to live beyond death is Ambitious), but did not deal directly with the non-normal-CS that are Hell's Shades
  • Nahz's Shade experience must come after M:SH and before BoM,
    • Possibly returning to Threnody and learning how to adjust his pre-evil "Rites" to affect the Shades of Hell. 

I hope that makes sense to somebody other than me. . .

Edited December 31, 2023 by Treamayne
Stupidity

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

This is what I mentioned above. We, the fans, always assumed that was what they were trying to detect - but when you look at M:SH, it does not say that.

cough cough 2 paragraphs lower cough cough:

Quote

“I do not doubt your foresight, ancient one,” the guard captain continued. “But I do trust my forces on the Threnodite border. There are no shadows here.”
“Perhaps,” the creature said, resting her fingers on the gemstone. “Perhaps there was someone, but the guard was wrong about it being a Cognitive Shadow. Have the guards be on alert, and leave the device on just in case. This timing strikes me as too opportune to be coincidental. I must speak with the rest of the Ire.”

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:43 PM, Treamayne said:

Taken in light of the timeline, I now think:

• The Clash between three shards was a loooonnnggggg time ago
• Investiture without a vessel will seek Sapience (or at least sentience), but this takes a long time
• Ire specifically mention "Powers" and "nobody" (possibly meaning a mortal being)
  • and specifically do not say anything about cognitive shadows or shades (Jossed by my stupidity, see below - thanks @alder24)
  • and their device specifically fails to find a cognitive shadow

The clash must have happened before the first Desolation. But it took place in interplanetary space. Hence the time the Evil was created and when it came to Threnody need not be identical. The Evil may literally just have fallen from the sky.

That means that between Silence in the Forest of Hell and the departure of the future Canticlites could be centuries. A lot of time for their technology to improve and for the Evil to try jump to the minor continent. We also know that the Threnodites made an attempt to retake the Homeland. Hence the chorus may be based on technology from old Threnody.

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

But it took place in interplanetary space. . . The Evil may literally just have fallen from the sky.

You are going to need to cite this, because that contradicts known data. The first clash occurred on Threnody, ripping off chunks from Ambition (and likely Odium). The final Splintering occurred in unoccupied space after Ambition fled Threnody. My theory is that the Evil is a Sentient (Sapient?) Splinter of the combined fragments of Ambition and Odium, as per:

Spoiler

Coppermind:

Quote

A Splinter is the term for a specific type of fragment of Investiture that is ultimately derived from Adonalsium.[2] These Splinters can be composed of a single Shard's power or the Investiture of multiple Shards.

Which is also derived by:

Quote

Wetlander

Please explain what you will about Shards and Splintering and Slivers.

Brandon Sanderson

An event happened long ago which destroyed something called Adonalsium into 16 pieces. And 16 people took up that power.

Questioner

People?

Brandon Sanderson

I call all intelligent species people. If someone takes up the power and lets go of it, it has the effect much like a balloon that's been stretched and then the air is let out. I call that a Sliver; based off of the Lord Ruler calling himself the "Sliver of Infinity". The Lord Ruler is someone who held the power and then released it. And so, current Slivers are the Lord Ruler, Kelsier, and there may be others around who at one point held the power and let go of it. A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

Wetlander

So is that like the mists and the Well? Are they...

Brandon Sanderson

They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other Splinters.

Wetlander

Are the highstorms related to the Splintering of Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. You have seen Splinters quite a bit on various planets.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

Quote

Argent (paraphrased)

Are honorspren Splinters, or do they hold Splinters?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Honorspren would be termed Splinters.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 5, 2013)

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all *inaudible* of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be *inaudible*.

Writing for Charity Conference (March 17, 2012)

So, if True Spren are splinters, and some or all of them are Splinters as a mixture of Honor and Cultivation, then Splinters can be derived from the investiture of more than one Shard.

Shardic Clash References:

Spoiler

Threnody Essay:

Quote

Odium clashed with (and mortally wounded) the Shard Ambition here. Ambition would later be Splintered, though that final act took place in a different location.

RoW Epigraph to Ch 27:

Quote

"That said, the most worrying thing I discovered in this was the wound upon the Spiritual Realm where Ambition, Mercy, and Odium clashed—and Ambition was destroyed. The effects on the planet Threnody have been … disturbing."

Oathbringer Ch 16:

Quote

Your enemy is not a man like you, the Stormfather replied, voice rumbling, thoughtful. Even … frightened. He does not age. He feels. He is angry. But this does not change, and his rage does not cool. Epochs can pass, and he will remain the same.

To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal.

Coppermind:

Quote

Ambition managed to flee the system, but was still Splintered in a fight with Odium. The Shard Mercy was also involved in at least one battle with Ambition and Odium. These clashes resulted in a wound in the Spiritual Realm and had "disturbing" effects that "twisted" the planet Threnody and its inhabitants.

Although Odium was successful in these initial conflicts, he was weakened by them.

 

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

You are going to need to cite this, because that contradicts known data. The first clash occurred on Threnody, ripping off chunks from Ambition (and likely Odium).

Arcanum Unbounded said the clash happened in interplanetary space, not on the planet itself. I don't have an English version to quote. Just keep reading the Essay, you're making the same mistake again, it's said literally in the next paragraph!  

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

You are going to need to cite this, because that contradicts known data. The first clash occurred on Threnody, ripping off chunks from Ambition (and likely Odium). The final Splintering occurred in unoccupied space after Ambition fled Threnody.

Arcanum Unbounded, essay on the Threnodite System:

Quote

The direct clash between two Shards of Adonalsium had a profound effect on the planets of this system. Though the actual battle took place in the vast space between planets - ...

 

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Arcanum Unbounded said the clash happened in interplanetary space, not on the planet itself. I don't have an English version to quote. Just keep reading the Essay, you're making the same mistake again, it's said literally in the next paragraph! 

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Arcanum Unbounded, essay on the Threnodite System:

My apologies for misreading that as "space between systems" (as in, not in the Threnodite system) - such as the proposed reason for Taln's Scar.

Here's the full reference (AU Threnody Essay):

Spoiler

Ambition would later be Splintered, though that final act took place in a different location.

The direct clash between two Shards of Adonalsium had a profound effect on the planets of this system. Though the actual battle took place in the vast space between planets—and though the true contest happened mostly in other Realms—the ripples of destruction and change washed through the system. Investigations into how this changed the other planets of the system have been fruitless, as none of them have perpendicularities to allow physical visitation.

Fortunately I have personal access to someone from Threnody, the third planet in the system. Judging by the records that Nazh has provided, I have concluded that some measure of Investiture must have existed on this planet before the battle between Shards. However, the waves of destruction—carrying ripped-off chunks of Ambition’s power—twisted both the people and the planet of Threnody.

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

My apologies for misreading that as "space between systems" (as in, not in the Threnodite system) - such as the proposed reason for Taln's Scar.

There is nothing in the essay that would rule out that would rule out Taln's Scar to be the site of Ambition's death. It does not confirm it either.

We are not seriously discussing that Nazriloff is thousands of years old, are we? So the question is the nature of the Evil.
Yes, the essay tells us that there have been consequences of the battle. But it does not tell us that all consequences happened at the same time.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

However, the waves of destruction—carrying ripped-off chunks of Ambition’s power—twisted both the people and the planet of Threnody.

We know how it twisted the people of Threnody - they have a "seed of a Shade" in them, but what about the planet? The only big thing we know of is the Evil itself, but the Evil is some kind of entity, not literally the planet. So yes, this part supports your theory about the Evil being some kind of Splinter of Ambition, but I don't think it's an ordinary Splinter, it's something bigger, Connected to the planet in some way. Unless there is something else going on with the entire planet itself.

Still, because of the Evil sudden appearance, I think it's unlikely that it's just a natural Splinter that just gained sentience/form recently (from Silence story point of view). I still think it's likely that Threnodites discovered this undeveloped Splinter, messed with it in some way, changed it and made it the Evil by accident.

What's interesting is the description of the Evil in TSM ch 15:

Quote

“Chased by an ancient force known as the Evil.”
“It’s still there,” he said. “On your homeworld. I’ve seen it. Well, the manifestations of it.” Wild, unchained Investiture, come to life with its own alien will—forming mountain-sized figures with impossible, unnerving features and unknowable motivations. Threnody was not a place one visited to relax

He saw manifestations of it (plural) mountain-sized figures (plural again), not just the singular Evil. It's described as a Splinter (possibly corrupted), but not like a Spren of the Stomrfather, but more like Re-Shephir, able to form multiple figures of itself - some kind of Midnight Essence, which is a Cosmere wide phenomenon:

Spoiler

Red the Windrunner (paraphrased)

We have now seen Midnight Essence on Lumar and as part of the Unmade on Roshar, should we assume that all the other Unmade have connections to Odium’s other conquests like maybe Sja-anat and Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Midnight Essence is more like Lightweaving in that multiple magic systems will reach the same conclusion. When something is done to the magic to corrupt it, it becomes like Midnight Essence. So while there are similarities between the two and they work the same they may not have the same point of origin.

[...]

Tampa Bay Comic Convention 2023 (July 28, 2023)

 

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

My apologies for misreading that as "space between systems" (as in, not in the Threnodite system) - such as the proposed reason for Taln's Scar.

I agree, Ambition was probably Splinter in the Scar, which is red, just like Threnodite star and those are the only red stars on the star map and this color is significant. 

Spoiler

Argent

Some stars are yellow, while others are red - is that significant?

Isaac Stewart

Yes. There are other colors in there too.

Footnote: This is from a private email exchange between Argent and Isaac Stewart.
Miscellaneous 2017 (June 1, 2017)

 

9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

We are not seriously discussing that Nazriloff is thousands of years old, are we?

Thousands unlikely, hundreds yes