First re-read of Stormlight Archive, Way of Kings, Part I

[FellowshipOfTheTables]

Hi all! This is my first post on the forums here. I started listening to the audiobook of Mistborn earlier this year, on my way to GenCon, and have been binging my way through everything Cosmere. Now that I've pretty well caught up on Cosmere, I'm doing a re-read of Stormlight Archive, going through it more slowly, hoping to time the completion of it with when book 5 comes out.

As such, I'm going to have running threads with notes and musing as I'm going through it all, hoping to prove further discussion. I have no particular structure planned for each post, but will hope to dump notes from a chapter or two per day, on average. I'm marking the whole thread as Cosmere, so that it's safe to make references to anything.

Ok, so here we go with the Prelude!

I love how Kalak just casually mentions having died a few times before over the centuries; great way to show the scale of the epic right off the bat.

I'm wondering whether this scene is taking place on Roshar; I assume so, but we're not really told. It could theoretically be Braize, though he mentions later going "back", which seems to indicate that he's not there now. We're not given many hints on this, as far as I can tell; the place is just described as a lot of stone columns; he says "not a lot of plants grow here", and mentions a "northern waterway".

During the description of the battlefield, he mentions red, orange, and violet blood: I'm guessing that's human, Parshendi, and Fused blood, respectively?

Kalak notes in passing that he's supposed to go back to Damnation if he survives, and I'm wondering what that travel is like. Do they go to Damnation through Shadesmar? Are they transported there magically somehow? I don't think we know the answer to this yet.

He notices all the blades except Taln's, and thus surmises that those all survived, noting that the blades would have disappeared if their owners died. I'm curious about that, since we see Jezrien die later in the series, and then see his blade given to Moash. So...what is he referencing here? Is he just saying that the Honorblade would go with the dead Herald to Braize?

It's interesting to me to think about what the end of a Desolation looks like. We know that the Desolation isn't a single huge battle, it's a world-wide war. So...what exactly makes him know that this is the end of the Desolation? Did they kill all the Fused? Was this some final, climactic battle that just was obviously the end of the whole war? He also says the enemy is growing increasingly tenacious, and I wonder if he's comparing this Desolation to previous Desolations, or just saying that, over the course of the Desolation, they put up more and more resistance.

He also says "He will not be bound by this, the enemy. He will find a way around it." - I assume "he" here is a reference to Odium, but not sure what "this" is - the breaking of the Oathpact? The end of the Desolation? How would either of those bind Odium?

The last thing I'll point out in the prelude is that he says that the Heralds willingly chose the pact, and thus can willingly give it up. For one thing, that seems really opposite of how Honor's oaths are mentioned in the rest of the series, as being so incredibly important not to break. But also, I hear a lot of people talk about how mean Honor is to force these 10 people repeatedly die and suffer, but we see here that it was clearly their decision.

Edited November 22, 2023 by FellowshipOfTheTables

[Treamayne]

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1 hour ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

I'm marking the whole thread as Cosmere, so that it's safe to make references to anything.

If this is your intention then you have started the thread in the wrong section. I've already reported to Admins so they can determine if the thread should be moved - but just for your edification - each Book/Series section is only spoiler-free for that series. Only the Cosmere Discussion forum is (nearly) all Spoilers allowed (excepting preview chapters and new releases in their spoiler period. Spoiler Policy can be found here, and excerpted below (Relevent section in Green) :

Spoiler

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1 hour ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

I'm going through it all, hoping to prove further discussion

Just to be clear, since this is a re-read (please confirm if there are any items you have not read, like White Sand, Secret Projects, etc. - you can find lists in reading order threads or on the Coppermind if you are unsure) Do you want your questions answered, or are they rhetorical? For Example:

1 hour ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

I'm wondering whether this scene is taking place on Roshar; I assume so, but we're not really told.

This answer is confirmed in one of Dalinar's Visions (amongst other hints). I can give more detail depending on the type of discussion you are looking to achieve.

Also, are you looking for WoB and/or Coppermind references to your musings? Such as:

1 hour ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

During the description of the battlefield, he mentions red, orange, and violet blood: I'm guessing that's human, Parshendi, and Fused blood, respectively?

Relevant Coppermind:

Spoiler

At least one Sleepless may have fought during Aharietiam, as Dalinar Kholin noticed a heap of burned, strange cremlings in one of his visions;^[51] it is not clear which side they fought on, although at least some Sleepless were allied with the Knights Radiant.^[5]

So there were more species there than the three you named, and since Fused are in Singer bodies, the chances that their blood changes color is small.

There is more I could comment on, but I'd rather wait for clarification on how you would like the thread to proceed.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[FellowshipOfTheTables]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

If this is your intention then you have started the thread in the wrong section. I've already reported to Admins so they can determine if the thread should be moved - but just for your edification - each Book/Series section is only spoiler-free for that series.

Thank you! I'm fine with having the thread here (since the focus will be on Stormlight), with the non-Stormlight references marked with spoilers, if the admins are good with that. I'm not clear whether the Cosmere tag is appropriate for such content. 

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Just to be clear, since this is a re-read (please confirm if there are any items you have not read, like White Sand, Secret Projects, etc.) Do you want your questions answered, or are they rhetorical? For Example:

I'm fine with any Cosmere content. Though, as you said, in this forum, it will have to be spoiler marked if it's non-SA. And yes, where there are answers to my questions, I'd love to hear them!

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

This answer is confirmed in one of Dalinar's Visions (amongst other hints). I can give more detail depending on the type of discussion you are looking to achieve.

Also, are you looking for WoB and/or Coppermind references to your musings? Such as:

Ooh, yes, I'd love to hear more on this, please! And any such references are welcome!

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

since Fused are in Singer bodies, the chances that their blood changes color is small.

There is more I could comment on, but I'd rather wait for clarification on how you would like the thread to proceed.

Hm. I don't know why I had it in my head that Fused possession changes the color of blood.

[alder24]

Welcome to the Shard. I love threads like this, it's gonna be a fun journey!

Are you fine with us answering some of your questions? When I see a question mark I can't stop myself from answering  And just to be 100% clear - have you read all of SA, including novellas?

10 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

I'm wondering whether this scene is taking place on Roshar; I assume so, but we're not really told. It could theoretically be Braize

That's Roshar. RoW:

Spoiler

Braize has no atmosphere.

 

11 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

During the description of the battlefield, he mentions red, orange, and violet blood: I'm guessing that's human, Parshendi, and Fused blood, respectively?

Well Chasmfiends are described as having purple blood, so maybe it's theirs (speculations)?

10 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Kalak notes in passing that he's supposed to go back to Damnation if he survives, and I'm wondering what that travel is like. Do they go to Damnation through Shadesmar? Are they transported there magically somehow? I don't think we know the answer to this yet.

I assume the Oathpact allows them to magically get pulled on Braize, something like what's happening to Fused later, but we don't know the actual answer.

10 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

He notices all the blades except Taln's, and thus surmises that those all survived, noting that the blades would have disappeared if their owners died. I'm curious about that, since we see Jezrien die later in the series, and then see his blade given to Moash. So...what is he referencing here? Is he just saying that the Honorblade would go with the dead Herald to Braize?

In this scene Heralds are breaking bonds with their Honorblades, thus Jezrien in OB wasn't bonded to his Honorblade. But Honorblades bonded to Heralds work differently, because Heralds are Cognitive Shadows, their soul can't die, thus the blade remains bonded with them and travels with them anywhere they go. If they die, they are pulled to Braize and their Honorblades go there with them. This works opposite to how Shardblades work, or Honorblades in the hands of mortals, like Szeth or Moash. If a Shardbearer dies, their blade appears next to their dead body.

10 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

It's interesting to me to think about what the end of a Desolation looks like. We know that the Desolation isn't a single huge battle, it's a world-wide war. So...what exactly makes him know that this is the end of the Desolation? Did they kill all the Fused? Was this some final, climactic battle that just was obviously the end of the whole war?

There is a certain deadline for how long Heralds can be on Roshar, otherwise they would start another Desolation, that's one thing. Generally Heralds come to Roshar, train humanity to fight, help them and fight alongside them, and when Heralds think humans are ready to fight on their own, they are going back to Braize to seal Fused and Voidspren there - humans on their own finish a Desolation and kill off all remaining Odium forces. 

Spoiler

luke.spence (paraphrased)

What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end

darkanimereal1 (paraphrased)

Oh. So they've got a time limit.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again.

luke.spence (paraphrased)

So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Kogiopsis

Finally, what point, usually, is society at when a Desolation comes? Because Taln was prepared to introduce them to bronze...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Kogiopsis

...and Alethi society is so far beyond that.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Historically a lot of the-- What would happen with the Desolations would destroy all civilization and then the Heralds would leave, and leave people basically in the Stone Age again. And they came back numerous times and found humankind still in the Stone Age, after having left. And so they are prepared-- Sometimes they would come back and they would already be in the Bronze Age or-- and things like that and get them beyond that but frequently they had to be ready, the Heralds learned they had to be ready to try and bring humankind forward several thousand years worth of technology in a year.

Words of Radiance Portland signing (March 7, 2014)

 

10 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

He also says the enemy is growing increasingly tenacious, and I wonder if he's comparing this Desolation to previous Desolations, or just saying that, over the course of the Desolation, they put up more and more resistance.

I think it's about what the Stormfather said in OB about the timeline of Desolations - between first Desolations there was hundreds of years of break, but between the last Desolations only a few years, between the last 2 less than a year. This means that humans were fighting a Desolation year after year, without any break, exhausting them, weakening them, while the forces of Odium were not as affected, thus they seemed to get stronger instead.

11 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

He also says "He will not be bound by this, the enemy. He will find a way around it." - I assume "he" here is a reference to Odium, but not sure what "this" is - the breaking of the Oathpact? The end of the Desolation? How would either of those bind Odium?

It was said in Prelude:

Quote

“Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations.”

and in OB ch 38:

Quote

THE NINE REALIZED, the Stormfather said, THAT ONE OF THEM HAD NEVER BROKEN. EACH OF THE OTHERS, AT SOME POINT, HAD BEEN THE ONE TO GIVE IN, TO START THE DESOLATION TO ESCAPE THE PAIN. THEY DETERMINED THAT PERHAPS THEY DIDN’T ALL NEED TO RETURN.
THEY DECIDED TO STAY HERE, RISKING AN ETERNAL DESOLATION, BUT HOPING THAT THE ONE THEY LEFT IN DAMNATION WOULD ALONE BE ENOUGH TO HOLD IT ALL TOGETHER. THE ONE WHO WASN’T MEANT TO HAVE JOINED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE, THE ONE WHO WAS NOT A KING, SCHOLAR, OR GENERAL.
“Talenelat,” Dalinar said.
THE BEARER OF AGONIES. THE ONE ABANDONED IN DAMNATION. LEFT TO WITHSTAND THE TORTURES ALONE.

 

11 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

The last thing I'll point out in the prelude is that he says that the Heralds willingly chose the pact, and thus can willingly give it up. For one thing, that seems really opposite of how Honor's oaths are mentioned in the rest of the series, as being so incredibly important not to break.

Can they willingly give it up or is this just how Jezrien tries to justify his action to ease his conscience? They are all breaking the Oath they've made, which is against Honor's intent.

 

[AonEne he/him in an enby way]

Hi, moved this to the cosmere forum

[FellowshipOfTheTables]

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Are you fine with us answering some of your questions?

Absolutely! My goal with this reading is to absorb as much as possible, to be ready for SA5.

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Well Chasmfiends are described as having purple blood, so maybe it's theirs (speculations)?

On 11/21/2023 at 8:40 PM, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

But do we know that they fought? So Listener blood is orange, then? I can't remember.

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Can they willingly give it up or is this just how Jezrien tries to justify his action to ease his conscience?

Yeah, that actually makes way more sense, good call.

 

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

There is a certain deadline for how long Heralds can be on Roshar, otherwise they would start another Desolation, that's one thing

Oh wow, this is super interesting.

Ok, now my notes on the Prelude:

The “Parshendi” tradition of White-wearing assassins feels like something that gets mentioned here and then never again (at least as far as I can recall). 

I didn’t realize until just now that there are 3 casual herald appearances in this scene; the 2 that Elhokar is talking to, and then the crazy/drunk Jezrien. Wow

I couldn’t figure out why the statue of Shash was missing until I looked it up, and remembered the interlude later that explains all about it.

When Szeth thinks that using Stormlight lights is profane - is this a Shin thing? I don’t remember it ever coming up again.

It’s mentioned here that Alethi dark-eyes can’t wear a sword? That’s surprising to me. None of the dark-eyed soldiers in any of the armies wear a sword? That can’t be right.

Szeth can only contain Stormlight for a few minutes - not true of Radiants, right? Is that unique to Szeth?

Szeth wonders if Voidbringers even existed. Then notes that “his [Szeth’s] punishment declared that they didn’t. His honor demanded that they did.” The first part, I can understand. He wouldn’t be truthless if Radiants/Fused existed. I don’t understand the second part, though.

“What am I? I’m…sorry” - this is such a chilling line.

So…shardblades “fuzz” when touching living skin. I feel like Sanderson uses that metaphor a lot; is it basically just when something related to the cognitive realm comes in contact with something in the physical? Speaking of which, why do Shardblades actually burn out eyes? We know they’re separating the soul from the body, essentially, but, why would that physically affect the eyes? Other than that it’s delightfully terrifying.

[YeomanoftheBowman he/him]

5 minutes ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

It’s mentioned here that Alethi dark-eyes can’t wear a sword? That’s surprising to me. None of the dark-eyed soldiers in any of the armies wear a sword? That can’t be right.

Yeah, darkeyes can’t wield swords. Go figure. Most darkeyed soldiers just use  spears.

5 minutes ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Szeth can only contain Stormlight for a few minutes - not true of Radiants, right? Is that unique to Szeth?

It’s because he’s using an honor blade, which I guess isn’t as effective as a radiant bond.

5 minutes ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Szeth wonders if Voidbringers even existed. Then notes that “his [Szeth’s] punishment declared that they didn’t. His honor demanded that they did.” The first part, I can understand. He wouldn’t be truthless if Radiants/Fused existed. I don’t understand the second part, though.

I’m pretty sure it’s just to show some early conflict with what Szeth believes to be true, and what the things he believes in believes to be true.

[Treamayne]

On 11/22/2023 at 4:01 AM, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

And yes, where there are answers to my questions, I'd love to hear them!

Okay, here we go. . .

On 11/21/2023 at 8:40 PM, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Kalak notes in passing that he's supposed to go back to Damnation if he survives, and I'm wondering what that travel is like. Do they go to Damnation through Shadesmar? Are they transported there magically somehow? I don't think we know the answer to this yet.

Correct, we do not yet know. I always had the impression that they killed themselves (so the same mechanism that transports them upon death is what moves them to Braize).

Quote

I'm curious about that, since we see Jezrien die later in the series, and then see his blade given to Moash. So...what is he referencing here? Is he just saying that the Honorblade would go with the dead Herald to Braize?

There's at least two things happening here:

1. The Honorblades leaving to remain with the Herald on Braize was only in effect until they Broke the Oathpact and gave the blades up
2. Jezrien didn't really "die" (at least not in the way that would have sent him to Braize, and caused his honorblade to go with him) - Moash used the Raysium Dagger to trap Jexrien's Cognitive Shadow in a Gem (like a spren being captured for a Fabrial)
   • They didn't know that trapping a Herald that way would sever the connection keeping them alive and allow them to pass Beyond.

Quote

It's interesting to me to think about what the end of a Desolation looks like. We know that the Desolation isn't a single huge battle, it's a world-wide war. So...what exactly makes him know that this is the end of the Desolation? Did they kill all the Fused? Was this some final, climactic battle that just was obviously the end of the whole war? He also says the enemy is growing increasingly tenacious, and I wonder if he's comparing this Desolation to previous Desolations, or just saying that, over the course of the Desolation, they put up more and more resistance.

We don't know for sure yet, but it is implied that once a Herald dies, the Fused are contained on Braize and cannot return to Roshar anymore - so the battles after that are mainly to kill the Fused remaining on Roshar to end the Desolation.

Quote

He also says "He will not be bound by this, the enemy. He will find a way around it." - I assume "he" here is a reference to Odium, but not sure what "this" is - the breaking of the Oathpact? The end of the Desolation? How would either of those bind Odium?

"This" is an Oathpact held fast by only a single Herald, while the other nine give up the Honorblades so they are not forced to return to Braize for torture.

Quote

The last thing I'll point out in the prelude is that he says that the Heralds willingly chose the pact, and thus can willingly give it up. For one thing, that seems really opposite of how Honor's oaths are mentioned in the rest of the series, as being so incredibly important not to break. But also, I hear a lot of people talk about how mean Honor is to force these 10 people repeatedly die and suffer, but we see here that it was clearly their decision.

He's deluding himself, trying to justify their actions in breaking the Oathpact. That said, it's important to note that the torture was not expected when the Oathpact was formed, it was one of the ways that Odium found to circumvent the Oathpact. Originally, the Heralds only agreed to be sent to Braize with Odium's forces, in exile. Oathbringer Ch 38:

Spoiler

AND SO, THE OATHPACT.

“Ten people,” Dalinar said. “Five male, five female.” He looked at the swords. “They stopped this?”

THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH. THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD END THE WAR FOREVER. BUT THEY WERE WRONG. HONOR WAS WRONG.

HONOR LET THE POWER BLIND HIM TO THE TRUTH—THAT WHILE SPREN AND GODS CANNOT BREAK THEIR OATHS, MEN CAN AND WILL. THE TEN HERALDS WERE SEALED UPON DAMNATION, TRAPPING THE VOIDBRINGERS THERE. HOWEVER, IF ANY ONE OF THE TEN AGREED TO BEND HIS OATH AND LET VOIDBRINGERS PAST, IT OPENED A FLOOD. THEY COULD ALL RETURN.

“And that started a Desolation,” Dalinar said.

THAT STARTED A DESOLATION, the Stormfather agreed.

An oath that could be bent, a pact that could be undermined. Dalinar could see what had happened. It seemed so obvious. “They were tortured, weren’t they?”

HORRIBLY, BY THE SPIRITS THEY TRAPPED. THEY COULD SHARE THE PAIN BECAUSE OF THEIR BOND—BUT EVENTUALLY, SOMEONE ALWAYS YIELDED.

ONCE ONE BROKE, ALL TEN HERALDS RETURNED TO ROSHAR. THEY FOUGHT. THEY LED MEN. THEIR OATHPACT DELAYED THE FUSED FROM RETURNING IMMEDIATELY, BUT EACH TIME AFTER A DESOLATION, THE HERALDS RETURNED TO DAMNATION TO SEAL THE ENEMY AGAIN. TO HIDE, FIGHT, AND FINALLY WITHSTAND TOGETHER.

 

10 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

The “Parshendi” tradition of White-wearing assassins feels like something that gets mentioned here and then never again (at least as far as I can recall).

It's cultural for the listeners.  It is explained in more depth in the Venli/Eshonai flashbacks in RoW (Ch 68).

Spoiler

As they approached the city, she could see the rival family mustered outside the gateway, lifting spears and making challenges and taunts. They wore white, of course. It was how one knew an attack was happening, rather than a request for trade or other interaction.

Quote

I didn’t realize until just now that there are 3 casual herald appearances in this scene; the 2 that Elhokar is talking to, and then the crazy/drunk Jezrien. Wow

Pretty sure more than three Heralds were there that night.

Quote

When Szeth thinks that using Stormlight lights is profane - is this a Shin thing? I don’t remember it ever coming up again.

Could you please quote what you are referencing? I see the following in the Prologue:

Spoiler

Quote

They were on the king’s floor, two levels up, surrounded by rock walls, ceiling, and floor. That was profane. Stone was not to be trod upon. 

Quote

Afire with holy energy, Szeth turned to the guards.

Quote

He reached the far wall and—preparing himself for yet another blasphemy—he raised his Shardblade and slashed horizontally through the dark grey stone.

 

So, I see where he views the Stormlight as holy, but he only seems to reference Stone (walking and cutting) as profane. However, it could be because of the Recreance, and how Vorinism has been teaching the Surges of Radiants as being profane because of their betrayal.

Quote

Szeth can only contain Stormlight for a few minutes - not true of Radiants, right? Is that unique to Szeth?

As mentioend by @YeomanoftheBowman, it's a feature/bug of Honorblades (not just Szeth), and may partly be due to how Honor used to fuel the Heralds. WoB:

Spoiler

Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Steeldancer

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

Quote

Szeth wonders if Voidbringers even existed. Then notes that “his [Szeth’s] punishment declared that they didn’t. His honor demanded that they did.” The first part, I can understand. He wouldn’t be truthless if Radiants/Fused existed. I don’t understand the second part, though.

This is in reference to why he was made truthless.

More info in the Climax of WoR - but we hope to get the full answer in SA5, because we still don't know for sure.

Quote

So…shardblades “fuzz” when touching living skin. I feel like Sanderson uses that metaphor a lot; is it basically just when something related to the cognitive realm comes in contact with something in the physical? Speaking of which, why do Shardblades actually burn out eyes? We know they’re separating the soul from the body, essentially, but, why would that physically affect the eyes? Other than that it’s delightfully terrifying.

Close - it's because a Shardblade (or Honorblade) is cutting the Spiritual aspect of living beings. WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Shardblades, they sever <limbs? people’s?> connection to the Spiritual Realm. So, that being said,  they cut inanimate matter like a regular sword but inanimate matter is projected into the Cognitive Realm.  So does inanimate matter have a Connection to the Spiritual Realm? In the same way living things do?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it doesn’t have the same thing going on.

Calamity Chicago signing (Feb. 22, 2016)

Quote

Excelsius

What's the biological reaction of a limb cut by a Shardblade, because they don't start to rot after being cut?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah they don't start to rot, so the bloodflow is still happening. The limb is still attached, it's not going to rot off, but the soul is dead. This is a thing that can happen in the cosmere that can't happen here. Because you have Spiritual, [Cognitive], and Physical DNA. Your soul's been severed in that part, and it just flops around. You can't feel it, you can't control it. It's something that, again, couldn't happen here.

Bonn Signing (May 15, 2019)

 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Treamayne

[FellowshipOfTheTables]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Could you please quote what you are referencing? I see the following in the Prologue

I'm working off the audiobook version, so these will be transcribed as best I can, but here you go.

Quote

At the end of the room, he passed rows of unwavering azure lights that bulged out where wall met floor. They held sapphires infused with stormlight - profane! How could the men of these lands use something so sacred for mere illumination? Worse, the Alethi scholars were said to be close to creating new shardblades.

Quote

Their pure black hair was pinned up atop their heads, either in intricate weavings of braids, or in loose piles. It was often woven with golden ribbons or ornaments along with gems that glowed with stormlight. Beautiful! Profane, but beautiful.

[Treamayne]

10 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

When Szeth thinks that using Stormlight lights is profane - is this a Shin thing? I don’t remember it ever coming up again.

1 hour ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

I'm working off the audiobook version, so these will be transcribed as best I can, but here you go.

Okay, now I undestand. When you said "using Stormlight" I misinterpreted that as breathing it in and using it, so I was searching the sections during the attack. Here are the epub quotes: (WoK Prologue)

Spoiler

Quote

At the edge of the room, he passed rows of unwavering azure lights that bulged out where wall met floor. They held sapphires infused with Stormlight. Profane. How could the men of these lands use something so sacred for mere illumination? 

Quote

Their pure black hair was pinned up atop their heads, either in intricate weavings of braids or in loose piles. It was often woven with gold ribbons or ornaments, along with gems that glowed with Stormlight. Beautiful. Profane, but beautiful.

Szeth left the feasting chamber behind.

 

So, this pertains to Stone Shamanism, the religion of the Shin that we still do not know much about. Answers coming in SA5. We know they revere Stone and Stormlight. Possibly due to lingering cultural taboos from the arrival of Humanity on Roshar. They have the luxury of not walking on Stone in Sinovar, because it's the only place on Roshar with actual Soil - since it was set aside and transformed when humanity arrived to be hospitable to the non-native species that humans brough with them.

Also note this section from Khissalla's Roshar essay (Arcanum Unbounded - Roshar):

Spoiler

Visitors to Roshar should know that fire will respond unusually because of the high-oxygen environment, which I believe is part of the reason that an alternative light source was developed during the early days of humanoid life on the planet.

So, the Shin do not use Stormlight as a primary means of illumination because of their religious belief that it is sacred - but, just as most of Humanity on Roshar lost the stone-walking taboo because outside Shinovar there is no soil (it's all stone - which is a point Szeth will make later in boook 1 or 2), Humanity lost the sacred feeling of Stormlight and began using it for illumination because fire can be unpredictable in a high oxygen environment.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

12 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Absolutely! My goal with this reading is to absorb as much as possible, to be ready for SA5.

Goooood, very good, I'm excited 

12 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

But do we know that they fought? So Listener blood is orange, then? I can't remember.

No, we don't know if Chasmfieds fought. It's speculation but it's possible because they are highly intelligent. Listeners have orange blood.

12 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

I didn’t realize until just now that there are 3 casual herald appearances in this scene; the 2 that Elhokar is talking to, and then the crazy/drunk Jezrien. Wow

Yeah, that we know of for sure  

12 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

When Szeth thinks that using Stormlight lights is profane - is this a Shin thing? I don’t remember it ever coming up again.

Yes, that's a Shin thing, often mentioned in his chapters. Using stones (gems are stones), walking on stones etc is forbidden as stones are seen as sacred by Shins.

12 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

It’s mentioned here that Alethi dark-eyes can’t wear a sword? That’s surprising to me. None of the dark-eyed soldiers in any of the armies wear a sword? That can’t be right.

Yes, that's true - only in Vorin culture (more or less eastern Roshar).

12 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Szeth can only contain Stormlight for a few minutes - not true of Radiants, right? Is that unique to Szeth?

Human body isn't a perfect vessel for Stormlight, it will leak from pores and holes in the body. Even Radiant can't contain light for long, but this depends on the amount of light inhaled. However Honorblades are less efficient than Radiants, they consume more Stormlight.

12 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Szeth wonders if Voidbringers even existed. Then notes that “his [Szeth’s] punishment declared that they didn’t. His honor demanded that they did.” The first part, I can understand. He wouldn’t be truthless if Radiants/Fused existed. I don’t understand the second part, though.

We don't know a lot about it. It seems like Szeth declared that Voidbringers will return soon, that another Desolation is coming, for which Shins named him Truthless and sold him as a punishment. 

12 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Speaking of which, why do Shardblades actually burn out eyes? We know they’re separating the soul from the body, essentially, but, why would that physically affect the eyes? Other than that it’s delightfully terrifying.

We don't know.

Spoiler

Argent

Shardblades burn out the eyes of the victims, and deadeyes have their eyes scratched out in Shadesmar. Is the connection here purely thematic? Or are there actual Realmatic mechanics behind it?

Brandon Sanderson

There are, but they're pretty slight. I would lean more on the idea of the thematic, this more being a Roshar thing, with the eye color, the eyes being scratched out, Shardblades burning out the eyes. There are some Realmatic things behind this, but mostly it's me trying to connect a theme in this magic system.

As you might know (maybe, maybe not), Shardblades originally did cut flesh. I wrote the entire prologue with Szeth and them cutting flesh and... ooh, boy, was that bloody! These are books about war, but man, it was just so gory that I'm like, "I'm gonna back off on this. Let's have it burn out the eyes instead." And I liked it way better that way.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Argent

When, in Stormlight, Shardblade victims are described as having burned out eyes, do the eyes physically burn out leaving empty eyesockets, or is it closer to a surface burn, maybe just looking like they had burned?

Brandon Sanderson

Eyes actually burn. It is an oddity that I might some day explain.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Nov. 2, 2016)

Now I wonder if Brandon took the quote "eyes are the window to the soul" literally. Eyes seem to have some direct connection to souls seen for example in Heralds eyes, which reflect their age, Vessel's eyes reflect their Shard's infinite power etc. But that's speculation.

[FellowshipOfTheTables]

I'm loving all the great discussion here! Thanks, ya'all! Here are my notes on Chapter 1. There aren't a ton, as a lot of it was pretty straight-forward.

The epigraph notes of the death rattle “Sample is considered questionable”. I wonder if this means that they doubt that it was actually influenced by Moelach, or what exactly they’re questioning about it.

Here, we see Kaladin’s squad calling him “Kaladin Stormblessed”. I know Bridge 4 started calling him that after he survived the highstorm, too, but I can’t remember if they did so completely independently, or if someone had remembered this nickname from before. If it was completely independent…wow, that’s something. Makes me think the Stormfather’s frequent references to Kaladin as the “Son of Tanavast” mean something really specific about his heritage.

Kaladin is also described as being lucky, and at one point, Cenn sees a warping of the air around him. I know that some of what keeps Kaladin’s men alive is his training, but it’s really interesting that these supernatural things are also already happening. It reminds me of how he was unconsciously making the arrows miss the bridge 4 guys, but I assumed that was connected to Syl being around; here, we see it before she has even showed up. I can’t remember any other reference to a radiant having things like this happen before they were even close to swearing their first ideal

It’s mentioned that Kaladin’s squad is the front because of “something about camp politics”. I don’t remember any future mention of this, though. Do we know why this was?

It’s interesting to me to see Alethi fighting each other in this fight. Seems like they’re constantly fighting; among their princedoms, Gavilar conquering the other princedoms, fighting against the Parshendi, the other nations’ assumptions that the Alethi would conquer them. Makes me think that The Thrill is influencing the whole race, causing them to fight so much.

Dallet tells Cenn, of the young recruits that Kaladin picks for his squad “I think you remind him of someone”. In my first reading, of course, I had no way of knowing what this was talking about, but it’s obvious now, and a tearjerker of a line.
 

[Treamayne]

37 minutes ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

I'm loving all the great discussion here! Thanks, ya'all! Here are my notes on Chapter 1. There aren't a ton, as a lot of it was pretty straight-forward.

No worries, glad to share your ride on re-read.

37 minutes ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

The epigraph notes of the death rattle “Sample is considered questionable”. I wonder if this means that they doubt that it was actually influenced by Moelach, or what exactly they’re questioning about it.

Likely (but onconfirmed) it's questionable because it was a darkeyed soldier "rattle" about " you killed me" (it could just be him, not Unmade influence)

37 minutes ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Here, we see Kaladin’s squad calling him “Kaladin Stormblessed”. I know Bridge 4 started calling him that after he survived the highstorm, too, but I can’t remember if they did so completely independently, or if someone had remembered this nickname from before. If it was completely independent…wow, that’s something.

Stormblessed is (was) a common term for calling somebody lucky. So, those incidents are separate, but related.  WoB:

Spoiler

Asha'man Rich

Why was Kaladin called Stormblessed even before he became Radiant? He wasn't surprised that people called him Stormblessed before the highstorm.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't use it very often this way because it would be confusing, but it's a not-unheard-of term for "lucky" or "blessed" in Roshar. An antiquated one, but not unheard of. You're not likely to see me using it very often, because it's become a title for him. And indeed, most people on screen know of him and now know that as his house name. So the word is shifting in meaning, but he was called that because they thought that the storms favored him. Certainly once he survived the highstorm; it was more proof to some of them who had already started thinking it.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

Note, that this is changing, and Brandon does not show it often in the books to avoid confusion over the generic stormblessed and Kaladin Stormblessed.

37 minutes ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Kaladin is also described as being lucky, and at one point, Cenn sees a warping of the air around him. I know that some of what keeps Kaladin’s men alive is his training, but it’s really interesting that these supernatural things are also already happening.

But he was already Proto-Radiant (my term). WoB and WoR reference:

Spoiler

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

So, whenever things like that happen you can assume there's little bits of Connection going on that's changing the probability a little bit. You're not meant to read much into it, but the probability is increased because of thing like that.

And you'll find, if you look really closely, there are connections between the characters that are really subtle that I'm doing, that anyone who's touching the Spiritual Realm or thing like that. For instance, in the second book, Syl turns into Shallan while Shallan is washed up on the beach while Syl is talking to Kaladin somewhere else. There's enough Connection going on that you see Syl change shapes, and Kal's like, "It looks like she's walking on a beach!"

It's just Syl... because through all of that, is turning into... You'll find things like that <happening> all through the books, really subtle, really small. There's just meant to be, one of the things in the Cosmere is Connection. Your Connection to people, Connection to things, places, influences probability a little bit.

Quote

Questioner

Why is Kaladin so proficient-- Like naturally born to wield a spear. Is that a weapon he likes or is it a destiny for him?

Brandon Sanderson

So destiny is a strong term... I would say he has natural aptitude, but no more so than a normal person who has a natural aptitude for something. But the way the Spiritual Realm works in the cosmere and the way Connection works, there were certain things that were happening to Kaladin before they happened...

It's like Syl says in one of the books. "You didn't know me then, but I knew you then. Even though we hadn't met yet, I still knew you." You see some weird Connection things too. And these are mostly just for fun sort of cosmere connections.

Like when you see Syl take on the look of Shallan standing on the beach. There's gonna be a connection there. It's forming, it doesn't exist yet, but all things are one in the Spiritual Realm, and we're just kinda seeing echoes of that. It's not meant to be destiny, it's more meant to be, "Hey there's little connections happening".

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

WoR Ch 52:

Quote

“It’s like when I first picked up a spear,” Kaladin whispered. “I was just a child. Were you with me back then? All that time ago?”

“No,” Syl said, “and yes.”

“It can’t be both.”

“It can. I knew I needed to find you. And the winds knew you. They led me to you.”

 

My current thoughts (unconfirmed) is there are two primary types of Radiants - those that attract a Spren naturally because they evoke the Order's Oaths (even if they don't have a bond and have not sworn an Oath yet) - and those who become Squires and attract a Spren because, as a Squire, they are already learning the Oaths and trying to live up to them. Kaladin and Dalinar are both shown on-screen to use stormlight before swaering any Oaths. The WoB notes that the nature of Connection in the Spiritual Realm (where there is no time or place) means that because they will have a Nahel Bond, they sometimes unconciously use Stormlight before they become aware of the bond starting. Kaladin is just the most obvious example of this.

Quote

It’s interesting to me to see Alethi fighting each other in this fight. Seems like they’re constantly fighting; among their princedoms, Gavilar conquering the other princedoms, fighting against the Parshendi, the other nations’ assumptions that the Alethi would conquer them. Makes me think that The Thrill is influencing the whole race, causing them to fight so much.

This connects to the coming "Starfalls" chapter (19), but is also influenced by the Thrill (until it moves to Jah Kaved in WoR).

Spoiler

“I’m fine,” Dalinar said. “Alethk…Alethela. You live there?”

“It is our duty and our privilege,” the woman said, “to stay vigilant for the Desolation. One kingdom to study the arts of war so that the others might have peace. We die so that you may live. It has ever been our place.”

So, culturally, Alethi were "Watchers at the Rim" (a phrase you are sure to see more than once) that trained in combat for the Desolations - which devilved into a natioinal pre-disposition for fighting wars and skirmishes. Oathbringer flashbacks also shed a lot of light on this.

Quote

Dallet tells Cenn, of the young recruits that Kaladin picks for his squad “I think you remind him of someone”. In my first reading, of course, I had no way of knowing what this was talking about, but it’s obvious now, and a tearjerker of a line.

Agreed

[FellowshipOfTheTables]

Short one for chapter 2:

When Kaladin is asked about how he got his brands, he says, essentially: “I killed a light-eyes. That didn’t get me the slave brand, though. It’s the one I didn’t kill that was the problem” - I assume here that he’s thinking that he should have killed Amaram?

The real heroine, Syl, has arrived!

At one point, in his self-flagellation, Kaladin is thinking of people he’s supposedly failed to protect. He thinks of a time “Before he failed Tien, blood on his hands and the corpse of a young girl with pale skin” - this is a patient in his father’s hometown, right?
 

[alder24]

11 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

The epigraph notes of the death rattle “Sample is considered questionable”. I wonder if this means that they doubt that it was actually influenced by Moelach, or what exactly they’re questioning about it.

It's possible that they thought what he spoke could be him speaking to them, not a true Death Rattle, or this sample might not be collected like others - it might be that they've collected it on a battlefield (he was a soldier after all) or by someone else in non-hospital conditions, or it was memorized at first before writing it down later (like Taravangian when he became the king of Jah Keved, he heard the dying king speaking a Death Rattle and he couldn't write it down). We don't know.

10 minutes ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

When Kaladin is asked about how he got his brands, he says, essentially: “I killed a light-eyes. That didn’t get me the slave brand, though. It’s the one I didn’t kill that was the problem” - I assume here that he’s thinking that he should have killed Amaram?

 Seems like that.

11 minutes ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

At one point, in his self-flagellation, Kaladin is thinking of people he’s supposedly failed to protect. He thinks of a time “Before he failed Tien, blood on his hands and the corpse of a young girl with pale skin” - this is a patient in his father’s hometown, right?

Yes, there will be a chapter with this moment.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

I assume here that he’s thinking that he should have killed Amaram?

No so much "Kill Amaram" as "not save" Amaram, was my impression. 

[FellowshipOfTheTables]

Chapter 3

The epigraph for this chapter is really weird. This “renowned cobbler", in his death rattle, decided to tell a little story? Apparently set in the past?

Knowing what I now know of Shallan’s backstory, it’s chilling to see Shallan casually thinking about life growing up with her dad. Much more chilling than the times I see her struggling to block it out. 

Honestly, it took me an embarrassingly long time to connect this “Princess Jasnah” with the assassinated king from the prelude. I know they outright stated it, but it just went over my head the first time. Too much, all at once. Somewhat less embarrassingly, I didn’t connect the “Veden” race with “Jah KeVED” until this reading.

I’ve seen some people talk about how Shallan is so unkind to people of lower status than her. But, when you look at this introductory chapter about her, it’s clear that that’s not the picture that Brandon is painting. Her interactions with the captain, Yalb, even the driver who took her to the Conclave, all show a very different story; she may not be perfect, but she tries to genuinely connect with people.

One interesting, very passing note - when she’s thinking about how the sailors casually flirt with her, she thinks back to her life growing up in her father’s estates, and notes this: “Servants, even those who had been full citizens, had been afraid to step out of their place” - I wonder why the note about citizenship. Was this ever clarified?

Just a tiny thing, I notice that the freehand is always the woman's right hand. I bet that must suck for people who are left-handed.
 

[Treamayne]

23 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Just a tiny thing, I notice that the freehand is always the woman's right hand. I bet that must suck for people who are left-handed.

True. WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

With covering the safehand for women, how does that affect how left-handed women are treated or perceived?

Brandon Sanderson

Left-handed you are trained- Well it's not a big deal for darkeyes because they wear gloves. Lighteyed women are trained to use the right hand, even if they're left-handed; which does cause some problems, but that's how they are trained.

Note, this still happens in modern cultures IRL. It's not just something Brandon made up.

23 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

One interesting, very passing note - when she’s thinking about how the sailors casually flirt with her, she thinks back to her life growing up in her father’s estates, and notes this: “Servants, even those who had been full citizens, had been afraid to step out of their place” - I wonder why the note about citizenship. Was this ever clarified?

WoK Ch 10:

Spoiler

“You have a gift from the Heralds themselves,” Lirin said, resting a hand on Kal’s shoulder. “You could be ten times the surgeon I am. Don’t dream the small dreams of other men. Our grandfathers bought and worked us to the second nahn so that we could have full citizenship and the right of travel.

It's related to rank (light and dark) and what rights are conferred at which rank.

23 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

it took me an embarrassingly long time to connect this “Princess Jasnah” with the assassinated king from the prelude. I know they outright stated it, but it just went over my head the first time. Too much, all at once. Somewhat less embarrassingly, I didn’t connect the “Veden” race with “Jah KeVED” until this reading.

There are so many details, it is easy (almost inevitable) to miss some of the smaller details. I've read WoK 4 times and found something I missed every time (and expect to again on next-year's reread)

Edited November 27, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[FellowshipOfTheTables]

Chapter 4

The only thing I really took note of in this chapter was, once again, the epigraph, another death rattle. They saw someone with a “head of lines” - a cryptic? - and a “distant sun, dark and cold, shining in a darkened sky.” Is that a reference to shadesmar somehow? It also says the sample is "of particular note", whatever that means. This epigraph and the previous one really confuse me.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Chapter 4

The only thing I really took note of in this chapter was, once again, the epigraph, another death rattle. They saw someone with a “head of lines” - a cryptic? - and a “distant sun, dark and cold, shining in a darkened sky.” Is that a reference to shadesmar somehow? It also says the sample is "of particular note", whatever that means. This epigraph and the previous one really confuse me.

Yes, that's Shadesmar, and he was seeing a Cryptic (much as Shallan will later this book).

The Ch 3 Epigraph is possibly related to the vision in Ch 75 - but possibly about somebody other than Dalinar receiving the Vision.  We don't know for sure, it could reference something from future books, as there are many we didn't understand until the refernced event happened in books 2, 3 or 4.

You can always check The List (spoilers). There is also this post in the Death Rattle Analysis thread.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarity

[+Child of Hodor]

On 11/21/2023 at 7:40 PM, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

The last thing I'll point out in the prelude is that he says that the Heralds willingly chose the pact, and thus can willingly give it up. For one thing, that seems really opposite of how Honor's oaths are mentioned in the rest of the series, as being so incredibly important not to break. But also, I hear a lot of people talk about how mean Honor is to force these 10 people repeatedly die and suffer, but we see here that it was clearly their decision.

It has to be a thing they can break or else them upholding their oath doesn't have any meaning. I don't think Honor told them "hey you can stop at any time" when they took it up. This is Jezrien trying to justify his decision to quit. Sort of like "Nowhere in the rulebook does it say a dog can't play basketball" from Air Bud. 

The oathpact probably doesn't say that they can't quit, but Honor assumed they wouldn't because he isn't great at seeing the future and thinks bonds and oaths are the most important things. 

Quote

THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD END THE WAR FOREVER. BUT THEY WERE WRONG. HONOR WAS WRONG ... HONOR LET POWER BLIND HIM TO THE TRUTH - THAT WHILE SPREN AND GODS CANNOT BREAK THEIR OATHS MEN CAN AND WILL 

Stormfather OB Ch. 38

[FellowshipOfTheTables]

22 hours ago, Treamayne said:

You can always check The List (spoilers). There is also this post in the Death Rattle Analysis thread.

Oooh, this is really good, thank you!

9 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

It has to be a thing they can break or else them upholding their oath doesn't have any meaning. I don't think Honor told them "hey you can stop at any time" when they took it up. This is Jezrien trying to justify his decision to quit.

Yeah, this makes a lot more sense.

22 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Yes, that's Shadesmar

Hmm, so the Shadesmar has a sun that's only visible in it. Is that sun only in the Cognitive realm? Super weird.

 

Chapter 5

On this read-through, when Taravangian asked for help for his granddaughter, I couldn’t help but worry that he had put her in danger, or had some other scheme involved with this. Thankfully, I read a WoB that, while he made use of Jasnah’s presence, it doesn’t seem like he caused it

Was there any reason for Jasnah to ask for the mass of the chunk of rock? Perhaps trying to estimate the amount of smoke that it would transform into? I would think it was just an abstract question she tried to stump Shallan with, but then she really did get the mass from the King.

I’m a little confused about Shallan’s timeline. After Jasnah rejects her as a ward, she thinks that the child of 6 months ago would have dissolved into tears. But she’s been traveling for the last 6 months. So, that would suggest to me that the events that toughened her up happened in those 6 months. But we know that the worst of what happened to her, happened before leaving to Jasnah. Maybe I’m just overthinking this, but it seems odd to me.
 

[Treamayne]

25 minutes ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Hmm, so the Shadesmar has a sun that's only visible in it. Is that sun only in the Cognitive realm? Super weird.

It is the Cognitive Aspect of the Sun and since it is a representation if the Idea of Sun it does not move. Also shadows point toward the sun instead of away. We do not yet know why (though theories abound). Note - the Axies the Collector interlude shows that the Siah Amians are often considered evil because their shadow in the Physical Realm is like Shadows in Shadesmar (likely because his species is in both at the same time - or something similar).

25 minutes ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Was there any reason for Jasnah to ask for the mass of the chunk of rock? Perhaps trying to estimate the amount of smoke that it would transform into? I would think it was just an abstract question she tried to stump Shallan with, but then she really did get the mass from the King.

There are two (non-exclusive) theories (that I know of)

• That a normal Ardent using a Fabrial would need that information (she was playing a part)
• That she needed to know how dangerous an equal amount of smoke would become
  • or possibly just deciding which essense to soulcast it into - and due to the mass she determined Smoke was the safest option

Probably some combination between the two. It would be awesome if when we finally get to Jasnah's flashback book we get to see this scene from her POV (like the deleted Jasnah scene from WoR).

25 minutes ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

I’m a little confused about Shallan’s timeline.

Everyone is. We are supposed to be. Even Shallan is confused about Shallan's timeline (as of RoW)

25 minutes ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

After Jasnah rejects her as a ward, she thinks that the child of 6 months ago would have dissolved into tears. But she’s been traveling for the last 6 months. So, that would suggest to me that the events that toughened her up happened in those 6 months. But we know that the worst of what happened to her, happened before leaving to Jasnah. Maybe I’m just overthinking this, but it seems odd to me.

This is slightly easier to extrapolate, but by-no-means definitive. My take, impled by WoK and WoR, was that after the events in the flashback you are referencing (if you mean her father) she was still conditioned to obeying orders and not making "waves" - until she started travelling and had no siblings or parents to make decisions for her and realized she had more will than she knew (to that point).

Mostly I think that line is just there as foreshadowing for her flashbacks in WoR.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Treamayne
Link/SPAG

[FellowshipOfTheTables]

Chapter 6

The only thing that sticks out to me from this chapter is the reference to Dalinar. The bridge crew tells Kal he's “the most honorable Shardbearer” and that he's sad to have “never broken his word”. Interesting that that's the reputation he has, 5 years after Gavilar's death. Nothing about being a drunk, or wild on the battlefield, or anything like that.

[Treamayne]

12 hours ago, FellowshipOfTheTables said:

Interesting that that's the reputation he has, 5 years after Gavilar's death. Nothing about being a drunk, or wild on the battlefield, or anything like that.

Well, specifically his reputation amongst Darkeyed Soldiers at the Warcamps. His reputation amongst the lighteyes and highprinces seems to be very different.