Who do you think will be the big bad of the cosmere?

[Hmmm lies she/her]

So my personal guess is Kelsier, due to Brandon stating the last cosmere stuff will be Mistborn Era 4, and Kelsier is from Mistborn, I also feel he would just love to turn a former favorite character against us, it would also be cool to see former Ghostbloods maybe turn against him. Autonomy I feel has been rather mysterious, and is still active after Mistborn Era 2, so she could do that. I don't think it will be someone new, but considering there are still like 20 books to go, it's still a possibility.

[Aredor]

I think it could either be Odium or Harmony/Discord, as both would be fascinating. Odium right now is the most dangerous character I can think of in the Cosmere, yet having a continuous character through all 4 eras of Mistborn would also be cool. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

I am hoping Ambition comes back and is the Big Bad. 

[Pruning the Blackthorn he/him]

It’s gonna be that chicken (you know the one).

[Hmmm lies she/her]

4 hours ago, Aredor said:

I think it could either be Odium or Harmony/Discord, as both would be fascinating. Odium right now is the most dangerous character I can think of in the Cosmere, yet having a continuous character through all 4 eras of Mistborn would also be cool. 

Oooh, Harmony/Discord would be cool, but Odium I doubt, I feel he will likely be defeated in Stormlight 10 somehow.

[TheoreticalMagic]

I have a pet theory that its actually going to be a reformed Dominion, based on my theory that the men of Red and Gold were originally Skai's version of Elantrians (gold hued instead of Aona's silver hued Elantrians) and when Odium came to Sel, Autonomy helped him destroy Skai and Aona in part so she could steal his not!Elantrians for herself, and they became the Men of Gold and Red because red is the color of corrupted Investiture, once she added her own in the mix to turn them away from just being Skai's weapons of mass destruction. (Equal power to Elantrians but dedicated to Dominion rather than Devotion? Terrifying). 

The Iriali on Roshar are descendants of the Not!Elantrians from Sel who escaped being drafted by Autonomy into her own private army, and their myths about reforming the One are a red herring....most people naturally think its a reference to the time before the Shards and the One they talk about reuniting by returning to their true home is Adonalsium, but I think its actually their legends of Skai...they believe that the more they experience and learn on their Long Trail, while continuously staying out of Autonomy's reach, the more they'll be able to bring under the dominion of Dominion once they find a way to restore their original god.....

Thus making Skai or at least Dominion the final big bad of the cosmere, the dark horse no one saw coming because he seemed to be off the table as a potential player....from the very first book of the cosmere. Bringing everything full circle, because as terrifying as Autonomy, Odium and Ruin are capable of being, and doubtless other Shards as well....the potential of the Shard of Dominion as a big bad, with the full might of his Men of Gold at the height of their power....feels waaaay too good to waste on backstory that happened thousands of years before the very first book.

As far into the cosmere as we are, in terms of pure power and versatility, the Elantrians and Ire remain all the way up there with very few other magics capable of matching them en masse (like individual Mistborn or fully-oathed Knights Radiant or an Awakener w/10000 Breaths are of course extremely potent in their own rights, but the numbers of magic-users able to wield the absolute peak of their homeworld's magic systems tend to be extremely variable....there's a wide spectrum of magical aptitude and potency on most Shardworlds whereas ALL the Elantrians are like...stupid powerful, lol. And Skai-commissioned counterparts dedicated to Dominion and conquest, the precursors of the monks of Jaddeth, created by Skai with intent rather than born of what remained after Odium Splintered the Sel Shards....they'd likely be just as powerful and numerous, which is what makes them so feared as Autonomy's army if that's who the Men of Red and Gold really are. Reunited w/their 'true god' and with Dominion having an axe to grind against multiple Shards and a cosmere to conquer?

Dominion and his armies could be THE threat to end all threats in the space age of the cosmere, IMO. Especially if there is no separating the Dor back into Devotion and Dominion and they'll have to become a merged Shard in the future similar to Harmony....but while we're looking at Discord as a potential huge threat if the Ruin side edges out the Preservation side....if a merged Dominion/Devotion Shard ends up with a holder who is more of Dominion than of Devotion.....but has that same Intent and appetite for Dominion but now with their people equally driven to be utterly Devoted to Dominion....not a Shard of Unity so much as a Shard of....Zeal or Obsession or some synonym for All-Consuming, a Shard whose Intent is to gather everything in creation under their banner and demands and expects nothing short of everyone's utter Devotion to them....

Yeah. That could make for a BIG Bad, I think.

Edited November 25, 2023 by TheoreticalMagic

[First of the Dun he/him]

22 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

…a merged Dominion/Devotion Shard ends up with a holder who is more of Dominion than of Devotion.....but has that same Intent and appetite for Dominion but now with their people equally driven to be utterly Devoted to Dominion....not a Shard of Unity so much as a Shard of....Zeal or Obsession or some synonym for All-Consuming, a Shard whose Intent is to gather everything in creation under their banner and demands and expects nothing short of everyone's utter Devotion to them....

Yeah. That could make for a BIG Bad, I think.

I saw someone once refer to Devotion and Dominion merging as the Cult shard. Doubt that’s what it’d be called but suits the intent well imo 

[Duxredux he/him]

There may not be a big bad. Not all wars or conflicts have a definitive good and bad side. Will there be major powers at play? Certainly, and we know at least several of the those involved (Scadrial, Roshar, Autonomy). That doesn't mean one will be the primary "evil" side or that there will be a unification against them. For that matter, if you have viewpoint books from the various sides then who is "the" antagonist?

Conflicts can arise from resource limitations, misunderstandings, failure to compromise, or simple us vs them scenarios. Anyone play RTS games like Age of Empires with 8 player matches? There doesn't have to be a major villain for a lot of conflict to happen (even if it actually was my oldest brother because he was the best at resource management and we knew it and he crushed us anyway). To use MTG terminology, there's a difference between 6 player Commander and Archenemy formats.

Now there totally can be a big bad and it most likely will be someone who doesn't play well with others. Pretty terrifying one that comes to mind is if Dalinar is forced to become a Fused, kills Szeth and claims Nightblood. Bound by his Oaths and his pact with Odium, this could potentially persist even if Taravangian was killed or Odium was Splintered, the Blackthorn becoming a terrifying reprisal of the Assassin in White on the Cosmere scale.

[Returned]

I think that there are far too many books yet to come for the ultimate villain to be anyone we already know who seems clearly situated to be the big villain. Of the characters who are important on the Cosmere stage that we know, I think that Kelsier and Autonomy are the top contenders. It wouldn't surprise me for Kelsier to take up Autonomy, for that matter. They seem like a good fit for each other. Hoid is also a contender: he already operates on the right scale, has few friends but lots of enemies, and we don't know much of anything about what he's doing or why. But he's sure becoming powerful along the way, snapping up every magic system he can.

But if there is an overarching villain, it will have to be someone that can involve (if not necessarily unite) all of the groups, characters, and worlds we've seen so far plus all the ones we haven't seen yet. I'm not sure any of the characters we know are well situated for that, outside of just being menacing or aggressive, which isn't a lot to hang the conclusion of dozens of novels on.

My prediction is that we'll have a rotating cast of aspiring villains who are increasingly consequential to the Cosmere, but the ultimate issue will end up being a people vs. nature (even human nature) sort of struggle. Something along the lines of arrogating the power of divinity into the hands of mortals who are lacking in the traits needed to wield it without wreaking havoc. The power of Adonalsium is too great for mortal ken, and the only ways that mortals can have or use it involve being broken in some way, which in turn leads them to cause problems (intentionally or otherwise), and those problems are amplified by the power their brokenness allows them.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Returned

[Forts Board]

You guys don't understand. It will obviously be stick. For obvious reasons. Of course!

 

[The Stormfather He/Him]

The big bad seems to be that autonomy and odium will form an alliance

[morcey2]

I think it's going to be Shob. 
(Spoilers for nothing in particular.)

Spoiler

He's using his hypochondria to cover up the fact that he's a diabolical mastermind and worldhopper.  Possibly even the embodiment of Death itself (apologies to Marsh.)  He's second only to Hoid in terms of actual powers he has accumulated across the Cosmere (Shards not included.)  He just covers it up so well.  He also lightweaves the rash on his arm that he's always talking about but his use of investiture is so powerful that it heals the lightweaving if he's not actively concentrating on not healing it.  So he really is going to turn into a voidbringer as he says, in a manner of speaking. 

There's a reason he's known as "The 18th Shard" throughout much of the Cosmere. (He's also know as "Gary" in parts of it, but mostly because of translation errors.)

I have an actual theory on who the big-bad will be but I'm still working through it.  I'll post it in the next week or two, hopefully.

[Xiahida]

My glorious plan: The Godking will Awaken The Stick and make it want to take over the cosmere. It will Worldhop to a world without a Vessel for a Shard (maybe Sel) and Ascend. Then basically be Odium for a hot minute and because Adonalsium Reborn (All 16 Shards with one Vessel)

[+Child of Hodor]

On 11/29/2023 at 5:42 AM, Forts Board said:

You guys don't understand. It will obviously be stick. For obvious reasons. Of course!

 

10 minutes ago, Ookla of Void said:

My glorious plan: The Godking will Awaken The Stick and make it want to take over the cosmere. It will Worldhop to a world without a Vessel for a Shard (maybe Sel) and Ascend. Then basically be Odium for a hot minute and because Adonalsium Reborn (All 16 Shards with one Vessel)

Storm you both i was gonna do Stick.

I could see Kelsier Brandon has said he’d be a villain in most stories. I hope it’s not him though.

What is the final conflict going to about? Whether to use the Dawmshards to attempt to recombine the shards and bring back Adonalsium vs people that don’t want that? Some shards want it others don’t. Are protagonists might be on either side of that. 

Or they accomplish the recombination midway through the series and the result is bad and our heroes must deal with the consequences of their own actions. 

So maybe Bad Adonalsium or a new personality that rises out of a recombination of all that investiture without a vessel. 

 

[The Stormfather He/Him]

I think the big bad could be lopen, as he finds out how to make harmonium bombs with trellium, and destroys the cosmere

[morcey2]

16 minutes ago, The Stormfather said:

I think the big bad could be The Lopen, as he finds out how to make harmonium bombs with trellium, and destroys the cosmere

Fixed it for ya. 

 

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I could see Kelsier Brandon has said he’d be a villain in most stories. I hope it’s not him though.

That keeps coming back to me as him possibly foreshadowing something.  I don't want Kelsier to be the bad guy, but I think best case scenario is he'll be a chaotic neutral force in whatever is coming. 

I really can see it turning into something where there are two sides, both that have understandable and reasonable goals, but the sides goals are so at-odds with each other that they end up in a Cosmere-wide conflict. 

Related:

Spoiler

I think that the Ghostbloods fracture somehow considering the difference between how they seem to act on Scadrial versus the Rosharan branch.

(And then Stick finally asserts the control he's always had when we find out he's had the power to restore Adonalsium all along.) 

And how do the Aether things (primal or no) factor into everything?  That's something I really don't know much about but it sounds ominous. 

[The Stormfather He/Him]

I feel like at some point investiture and the power that powers the aethers are going to combine, and it will form something evil.

other theory : aether + investiture = dawnshard.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 12/1/2023 at 3:29 PM, morcey2 said:

I think that the Ghostbloods fracture somehow considering the difference between how they seem to act on Scadrial versus the Rosharan branch.

Agreed, TwinSoul refers to Dlavil's "sister who ran amok on Roshar" and they consider Roshar one of the systems they can't safely access (but phrased in the odd way of "if you count Roshar"... perhaps because the danger is less something inherent and more a rogue wing of the organization hunting them if they visit?).

[morcey2]

I have another thought, a little out of left-field.  Reading through the epigraphs for the last section of RoW. 

Spoilers for RoW, sorta.

Spoiler

El wants to be leading a united army of Roshar in a future war.  He admires Taravangian and wants to serve "newest Odium."  His epigraphs are called his "Musings of El, on the first of the Final Ten Days."  I'm not a scholar on this, by any stretch, but is sounds like this was recorded before the challenge of champions but given part of the title after, otherwise how would they know it was the "Final Ten Days." 

There's just something very different about El and I think he's being set up for a much, much larger role in the Cosmere.

Just my random musings.  I don't know if he will be the big bad, but I really think he'll be heavily involved in Odium's plans going forward.   Now I need to go search for any relevant WoBs.  (WsoB? Which is proper?)

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ Male]

On 11/29/2023 at 4:42 AM, Forts Board said:

You guys don't understand. It will obviously be stick. For obvious reasons. Of course!

 

 

On 12/1/2023 at 11:47 AM, Ookla of Void said:

My glorious plan: The Godking will Awaken The Stick and make it want to take over the cosmere. It will Worldhop to a world without a Vessel for a Shard (maybe Sel) and Ascend. Then basically be Odium for a hot minute and because Adonalsium Reborn (All 16 Shards with one Vessel)

 

On 12/1/2023 at 12:08 PM, Child of Hodor said:

Storm you both i was gonna do Stick.

I could see Kelsier Brandon has said he’d be a villain in most stories. I hope it’s not him though.

What is the final conflict going to about? Whether to use the Dawmshards to attempt to recombine the shards and bring back Adonalsium vs people that don’t want that? Some shards want it others don’t. Are protagonists might be on either side of that. 

Or they accomplish the recombination midway through the series and the result is bad and our heroes must deal with the consequences of their own actions. 

So maybe Bad Adonalsium or a new personality that rises out of a recombination of all that investiture without a vessel. 

 

Stick becomes the vessel of adonalsium, and his mind is expanded!

[Forts Board]

54 minutes ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

Stick becomes the vessel of adonalsium, and his mind is expanded!

Would stick become the vessel of Adonalsium?

...

Or would ADONALSIUM become the vessel for STICK???

[morcey2]

59 minutes ago, Forts Board said:

Or would ADONALSIUM become the vessel for STICK???

Might make Adonalsium walk funny.   

[The Stormfather He/Him]

Obviously stick would have caterpillars to carry them.

[Cocoa he/him]

(Sunlit Man spoilers will be spoilered)

I don't think it's going to be as simple as that. While Cosmere novels almost always center on very sympathetic and well-intentioned characters, Brandon seems to have a fondness for setting up morally grey conflicts; not in the way it's often used of "nobody involved in the conflict really feels 'good,'" but in the sense that everyone involved has at least somewhat good reasons for fighting. The main exceptions up to this point have been Shards like Ruin or Odium whose Intents make it almost impossible for them to not stir up trouble (and their presence is, I think, part of why his conflicts are good at not devolving into "everyone is just awful" grey morality). So with all that said, I don't think there will be a single big bad, but it'll depend heavily on which series we're viewing them from. That said, I think there are a few different people who will show up as a Big Bad:

Autonomy is in a weird position of being simultaneously isolationist and interventionist. "I want everyone to leave me alone, and in order to accomplish that I'm going to meddle and make sure none of them are strong enough to interfere with me," basically. This puts her in a position to step on a lot of toes, so it's hard to imagine her teaming up with any of the existing main factions without taking them over from the inside, but the fact that there seems to be some ongoing Scadrial-Roshar (Cold?) War in Era 4 means that she's probably not such an incredibly powerful threat that her presence can enforce an uneasy alliance between warring factions, not to mention that the probably-Scadrian Ones Above were able to just drop in on a planet inhabited by one of her avatars. If end-series Cosmere has a true Big Bad, I'd vote for her, but I think her role is more often going to be scheming in the background. It's also possible, depending on how exactly her Intent works, that one of her will be the ultimate Big Bad, but that other branches of her will team up with various existing factions even if it puts two of her instances at cross-purposes.

The Ghostbloods and Scadrians in general seem to be shaping up to be a nightmare for anyone not actively allied with them. From their perspective in Era 4, they'll probably be a heroic Trek Federation-style faction, but we've already seen them being antagonistic on First of the Sun, Roshar, and

Spoiler

Canticle.

Now, from the Scadrians' perspective, they've probably got perfectly good reason to be wary of Rosharans and Radiants in particular. We've still got book 5 and the whole back series for things to go to Damnation, whether that be Todium pulling a fast one, Cultivation turning out to be a lot less altruistic than might be hoped, a War composite-Shard forming, Roshar getting glassed by surgebinding and turning Rosharans into superpowered refugee-invaders (history repeating with that one, eh?), or whatever.

Spoiler

We've only just recently been introduced to the Night Brigade, but their actions towards Nomad certainly don't paint them as heroic, and they're hunting a Dawnshard. Those two things together do not paint a terribly rosy picture of their future role.

It's... possible that the Ire are going to wind up being a major antagonist in the endgame, but if so, I don't think it'll be just them on their own independent of anyone else. I can see them being allied with the Scadrian, Rosharan, or Autonomy factions, but the Scadrians seem most likely to me if only because Riina's spaceship felt like it had Scadrian influences to me.

Finally, we still have no idea what makes Hoid tick. Sure he's been, on the balance, altruistic up to this point, but all we actually know about his end-goals are Brandon saying he would probably not join up with Hoid's cause if he personally lived in the Cosmere, and Hoid's own admission to Dalinar that he'd let Roshar burn, however regretfully, if it would achieve his goals. That ruthless streak is something we've seen before in Travanagian and possibly starting to grow in Kell, and it's part of what makes them so dangerous.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

Dalinar and Kelsier if I had to guess.

Dalinar will probably lose the contest of champions and be forced to serve Odium for a while. I can only imagine how disastrous this would be for the rest of the Cosmere.

Kelsier will probably take Autonomy (he is literally a perfect match for the Shard) at some point and become an existential threat before having a redemption arc.

I would guess that the two of them come into conflict and drive the main plot of the late phase Cosmere.