Biochroma as a magic system

[Nightstar The Bright]

I propose that awakening isn’t actually its own magic system, but rather BioChromatic breath is one, with awakening simply being an aspect.

Breath has many uses, the most known use is awakening, but it can also be used to store memories and according to a question from dragonsteel 2023 (posted on reddit) breath can also be used to return a cognitive shadow to a body, although it won’t actually stay there. 
 

So what if Biochroma is it’s own system, and all of these functions are aspects of it, to use breath one only needs a command, intent, and perhaps color. If this theory is correct you could use breath for a lot more things.
 

 

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

I propose that awakening isn’t actually its own magic system, but rather BioChromatic breath is one, with awakening simply being an aspect.

Breath has many uses, the most known use is awakening, but it can also be used to store memories and according to a question from dragonsteel 2023 (posted on reddit) breath can also be used to return a cognitive shadow to a body, although it won’t actually stay there. 
 

So what if Biochroma is it’s own system, and all of these functions are aspects of it, to use breath one only needs a command, intent, and perhaps color. If this theory is correct you could use breath for a lot more things.

What is a magic system? This is always the biggest question when you try to categorize something as "a magic system". It's fully subjective, basically you decide what it means for you.

For me, a magic system in Cosmere is called Invested Art, a way for people to manipulate investiture. Awakening is invested art as you manipulate Breaths, which are just investiture - the energy. 

Breaths are a gaseous form of Endowment's investiture. And just like any other form of investiture, it has some effects on its own - in this case manifesting as Heightenings. But any investiture can be used for various things, it’s a magical energy that you can use to fuel invested arts. Breaths, unlike other types of investiture like Stormlight, stick to your soul, thus they are better for some things than others. But on Nalthis there are different ways to use Breaths other than Awakening - maybe that was the memory storing Vasher can do.

While I haven't seen this WoB you've talking about, a Divine Breath does just that - it stamples a CS to his body. It provides Connection to the Physical Realm. 

You can Awaken without Breaths, so Awakening isn't just an aspect of Breaths. Yes, Breaths have many uses outside of Awakening, because they are investiture, not because they are a magic system on their own.

Spoiler

Questioner

Is there any other magic types on the Warbreaker world?

Brandon Sanderson

There are different manipulations and manifestations of Breath.

Questioner

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

They are gonna be much closer than, like, the Selish magic systems and things like that.

Questioner

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

So, the deviation is much smaller, but it does manifest in slightly different ways-- Kind of a thing.

TheHunter

Have we seen any?

Brandon Sanderson

Ahh! RAFO!

Ad Astra 2017 (May 5, 2017)

Slight Cosmere spoilers WoBs:

Spoiler

Questioner

Would he also be able to have powers from Warbreaker without using Breaths?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes that is-- It is possible to power the magics with one another. Breaths are one of the-- it's-- yeah, let's just say that.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So assuming you have mentioned that it is technically possible to be able to use one magic system on another planet from a different one...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Is it possible to fuel that... Like, say could you fuel Awakening using Stormlight, or do you have to bring Breaths?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you could!

Questioner

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. Now it's-- there are tricks to making it happen on each world. Some are easier than others, but yes you can.

Questioner

So could that allow a loophole to maybe... convert from one form of power to another? Or like from Stormlight to Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. [SA spoilers edited out]

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

[Nightstar The Bright]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

What is a magic system? This is always the biggest question when you try to categorize something as "a magic system". It's fully subjective, basically you decide what it means for you.

 

That’s true of course, but it is widely accepted that awakening is a magic system, same with Allomancy and feruchemy. It could be argued that these are actually a gathering of multiple magic systems.

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

For me, a magic system in Cosmere is called Invested Art, a way for people to manipulate investiture. Awakening is invested art as you manipulate Breaths, which are just investiture - the energy. 

Once again, all up to you, though this is unclear, do you consider a basic lashing to be an invested art, or gravitation or surgebinding as all manipulate investiture. What I’m proposing here is that awakening is not actually it’s own magic system, kind of like how most people don’t call a basic lashing a magic system.

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Breaths are a gaseous form of Endowment's investiture. And just like any other form of investiture, it has some effects on its own - in this case manifesting as Heightenings. But any investiture can be used for various things, it’s a magical energy that you can use to fuel invested arts. Breaths, unlike other types of investiture like Stormlight, stick to your soul, thus they are better for some things than others. But on Nalthis there are different ways to use Breaths other than Awakening - maybe that was the memory storing Vasher can do.

It seems to me that Heightenings are indeed simply passive effects, rather then part of my grand magic system.  What I’m proposing is that most of the uses we’ve seen (awakening/storing memories/returning the cs to the body) is simply the same invested art used a little differently (like regrowth and regular growth from progression.) 

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

While I haven't seen this WoB you've talking about, a Divine Breath does just that - it stamples a CS to his body. It provides Connection to the Physical Realm. 

The WoB isn’t on the arcanum yet, you can find it on the Cosmere Reddit page. A Divine Breath does do this, but the WoB says that this can be done with regular breaths, although the cs will escape again. 

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

You can Awaken without Breaths, so Awakening isn't just an aspect of Breaths. Yes, Breaths have many uses outside of Awakening, because they are investiture, not because they are a magic system on their own.

I assumed it was like with Lightweaving that awakening is a broad term for awakening objects to ‘life’. This can indeed be done with other types of investiture. But I thought that Nalthian awakening can only be done with breath, otherwise you’d simply be doing another type of awakening with the same effect. My theory doesn’t suggests that Breath are a magic system, but that there is a grand magic system that simply works by commanding breath to do certain things (sorry if that was unclear.) We know that for removing memories (likely just storing them inside the breath) you need to say a command, and for awakening and this cs stapeling as well. So what if you can just command breath to do bassicly anything. Awakening would be commanding the breath to enter and awaken an object, and give it another/further command (the Nalthians would be doing this subconsciously.) the Heightenings would not be part of this, as they are just passive effects.

hope this clears things up a little.

[Treamayne]

54 minutes ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

That’s true of course, but it is widely accepted that awakening is a magic system, same with (Mistborn and SA Spoilers)

Spoiler

Allomancy and feruchemy. It could be argued that these are actually a gathering of multiple magic systems.

 

Once again, all up to you, though this is unclear, do you consider a basic lashing to be an invested art, or gravitation or surgebinding as all manipulate investiture. What I’m proposing here is that awakening is not actually it’s own magic system, kind of like how most people don’t call a basic lashing a magic system.

It seems to me that Heightenings are indeed simply passive effects, rather then part of my grand magic system.  What I’m proposing is that most of the uses we’ve seen (awakening/storing memories/returning the cs to the body) is simply the same invested art used a little differently (SA Spoilers)

Spoiler

like regrowth and regular growth from progression.

 

This is the Warbreaker Forum, please make sure you have spoiler tagged information from other series (as demonstrated above) - or report the thread (using the three-dot menu, top right corner of the first post) and ask an Admin to move it to Cosmere Discussion so that all Cosmere is allowed without spoiler tags (except new and preview material in their spoiler period).

[alder24]

37 minutes ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

That’s true of course, but it is widely accepted that awakening is a magic system, same with Allomancy and feruchemy. It could be argued that these are actually a gathering of multiple magic systems.

Yes, that's why I don't like using the term "magic system" in Cosmere. There is no magic in Cosmere, it's all physics, fantasy physics but still physics. I prefer terms such as invested arts, manifestations of investiture or even arcana - terms used by Khriss to describe those phenomena. 

27 minutes ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

Once again, all up to you, though this is unclear, do you consider a basic lashing to be an invested art, or gravitation or surgebinding as all manipulate investiture. What I’m proposing here is that awakening is not actually it’s own magic system, kind of like how most people don’t call a basic lashing a magic system.

Surgebinding is for me a one big magic system (invested art), because every ability which is included in it is based on the same principles - more or less. Allomancy is one magic system and Awakening as well. Burning steel or a basic lashing would be comparable to a single Awakening Command - it's a specific use inside of a bigger system.

34 minutes ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

It seems to me that Heightenings are indeed simply passive effects

I hope so, they are passive effects of being invested, while the specific effect might be tied only to Endowment (like those things related to Awakening), being highly invested just generally gives you those passive effects. Heavy SA spoiler WoB:

Spoiler

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

31 minutes ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

What I’m proposing is that most of the uses we’ve seen (awakening/storing memories/returning the cs to the body) is simply the same invested art used a little differently

It can be - manifestation of Endowment. Sure. Slight Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

It would be like calling every Selish invested arts just a one big magic system - which is valid. 

However, I'm simply opposing the idea that Breaths are a magic system - they are not, they are just energy for magic systems. 

Slight Cosmere spoilers WoBs:

Spoiler

Crspu

Is there going to be a magic system for every Shard? 

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, yes, whether there'll be books? We get into a problem here... is... what is a magic system, right? 

So for instance like, would you count all of Surgebinding as one magic system, or is it ten magic systems, right? Is Windrunning a separate magic system from Skybreaking. Right, and is it the Surges? Is it that? What do you call a magic system? Is the system of fabrials a magic system, or is it a subset of what's happening on Roshar? And in that case, it's like I delineated it pretty strongly in Mistborn, but in Stormlight, it's like... kind of Surgebinding is kind of Honor and Cultivation, right? And so is there a magic system for each of them or not?

So the answer is yes and no, in that every one of the Shards will inspire really interesting magic systems. But is there a one to one? What do you call a magic system? And beyond that, will I have time to write books about all of these, I don't know. You could even look at Sel. Sel has how many magic systems, is it one? Is it lots? Is Forging a different magic system from AonDor, or is it two aspects of the same magic system and so... It's tricky. 

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

I notice how in the different worlds you have different sets of powers. Elantris has two gods in it, two Shards, and there are four powers that we've seen, and we've seen three powers on Scadrial. Do you have kind of a formula or general rule for how many magic systems there are in a place?

Brandon Sanderson

No. I was looking at this and decided that what people call a magic system is more a human construct of etymology and categorization than it is an actual true magic systems. You could claim that all the magics on Roshar are just one magic system: applying the powers of nature through the Knights Radiant and stuff like that. You could say that is just one magic. You could say that the magics on Sel, Elantris' world, are all the same magic. People divide them into systems saying "these are Aons and these are with the Skaze" but those are kind of the same thing, it's just different powers. So that's a human construct just like saying animal, vegetable, mineral, mammal, non-mammal. That's a human construct. Yes there are Laws in nature that we are using as our guidelines but those are our constructs.

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

 

44 minutes ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

I assumed it was like with Lightweaving that awakening is a broad term for awakening objects to ‘life’. This can indeed be done with other types of investiture.

Yes, it is.

44 minutes ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

But I thought that Nalthian awakening can only be done with breath, otherwise you’d simply be doing another type of awakening with the same effect.

Debatable, but I think no. It's just Awakening. Breaths are just a fuel, which you can replace with any other form of investiture - it would still be the same Awakening no matter what you use as a fuel and the effects should be still the same. Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

it would be like using the Dor to fuel Allomancy. Allomancy still does the very same effect no matter if you burn metals or use the Dor.

 

50 minutes ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

My theory doesn’t suggests that Breath are a magic system, but that there is a grand magic system that simply works by commanding breath to do certain things (sorry if that was unclear.) We know that for removing memories (likely just storing them inside the breath) you need to say a command, and for awakening and this cs stapeling as well. So what if you can just command breath to do bassicly anything. 

Yes, that makes more sense. I can agree to that. I wouldn't say "you can command Breath to do basically anything," but certainly there are some other ways of manipulating Breaths, which are all based on Endowment. Whether you call it all a one big magic system or several, similar smaller ones is subjective (like Brandon used to say: "is Windrunning a magic system?")

[Duxredux he/him]

If you consider IRL, we try to make logical classifications based on how we perceive the world and how we see different elements interact. We talk about chemistry, physics, biology, etc., and it makes sense to learn each science separately as many of the concepts can largely be self-contained within each topic. However if you try applying biology, chemistry, and physics to something as simple as walking it become incredibly complicated and overlaps when you start going into the super nitty-gritty. Try describing the necessary motion of blood for the delivery of glucose to muscle cells to process ATP to fire the necessary muscle groups in accordance with the signals from the nervous system in order to walk without tripping and you might see what I mean. Now try doing that but only as descriptions of the motion of protons, neutrons,  and electrons which theoretically should be possible, but I sure can't explain it that way. In the same way, matter, energy, and Investiture are the building blocks in the Cosmere and arcanists are applying similar methods of study to the Cosmere as we do to the sciences. The Arcanum is made by normal people attempting to categorize and comprehend the underlying principles that govern the observed Invested Arts - and they will revise the same way our science text books get updated fairly regularly.  A couple weeks ago when helping my sister-in-law with homework I cracked open a new high school chemistry text book after a decade and there were concepts I sure don't remember being taught.

Is there merit to discuss Breath in its own right as a starting seed to Awakening and Heightenings? Absolutely. Same as discussing the sheer complexity that can occur with electricity and magnetism when considering the movement of electrons that are powering whatever device you are using to read this post from a circuitry and computational standpoint at the same time as considering the electrical engineering necessary to build a city power grid. There's merit to examining the universe at each level, macro and micro. It's why we teach physics, chemistry, electromagnetism, fluid dynamics, biology, microbiology, even though many of these are just larger models based on atomic and quantum mechanics.

In other words, I don't think it's necessary to jettison the description found in the Arcanum at the back of Warbreaker and place it under an umbrella topic on Breaths, they each deserve their own examination. The term "magic system" is a method of classification and is meant to help people understand the principles that govern the Cosmere - but they don't actually define them, nor is the Cosmere restricted to what is found in the Arcanum. I guarantee that there are gaps in known knowledge with stuff that Brandon is waiting to spring on us, or that in some cases the very nature of the magic can change. Unless there is a very compelling reason to retire the terms "Heightening", "Awakening", or "Breaths" (which, I heavily, heavily doubt will be the case), then just stick with the model that everyone reads at the back of the book. It's the simplest method to have shared and understood terminology on the subject.

Beyond that, magic system has its own meaning outside of the Cosmere in Brandon's Laws of Magic Systems - which are really guidelines for proper foreshadowing in story telling when using magic to solve problems. The way the magic is described, the way the character and the reader understand the magic, that is an outgrowth of Brandon wanting to tell really cool stories. Linking back to the previous thoughts, again these terms are here to try to help people in-world and out to understand what is going on in the Cosmere.

That said, larger Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

As more and more lines get blurred and as the various types of Investiture become cross purpose (Dor, Stormlight, Voidlight, Mist, Breaths, etc) it may become more important to describe the magical concept (Awakening) in addition to the source of Investiture (Breath) to remove ambiguity.

 

[Treamayne]

11 hours ago, Duxredux said:

The term "magic system" is a method of classification and is meant to help people understand the principles that govern the Cosmere - but they don't actually define them, nor is the Cosmere restricted to what is found in the Arcanum. I guarantee that there are gaps in known knowledge with stuff that Brandon is waiting to spring on us, or that in some cases the very nature of the magic can change.

Related WoB (Mistborn Spoilers):

Spoiler

Argent

Mechanically speaking, how does steelsight work? The scientific definition of "metal" gets a little murky in the middle of the periodic table-

Brandon Sanderson

It does.

Argent

-and we see that powerful enough Allomancers can see more than just metals.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep.

Argent

Are Connection and perception significantly involved here?

Brandon Sanderson

To an extent, but the science of it also is. I feel like the stronger steelsight is getting, the more it is detecting things like electromagnetic bonds and even, you know, the strong and weak force and some of these sorts of things that is just in everything, right? And I do think that in strongest applications, Allomancy is going to be moving beyond metals and moving toward things like fundamental forces. So there you go.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

Quote

Beyond that, magic system has its own meaning outside of the Cosmere in Brandon's Laws of Magic Systems - which are really guidelines for proper foreshadowing in story telling when using magic to solve problems. The way the magic is described, the way the character and the reader understand the magic, that is an outgrowth of Brandon wanting to tell really cool stories.

In case you have not seen them, they can be found here:

1. Sanderson's First Law
2. Sanderson's Second Law
3. Sanderson's Third Law