Dalinar's Amnesia

[dj26792 he/him]

Im not sure its that simple. I volunteer at childrens camps every year at the last one I did I had a camper who for health reasons couldnt participate in many activities, I felt really guilty about that I've seen it in other leaders ad well and in parents people feel guilty aboht all sorts of things Dalinars guilt could be just as much helplessness as guilt over that sort of curse.

Also there is a strong theme in the curses and booms we know of that selfish boons are twisted and get big curses on the parties involved and selfless requests get minimal curses and clever assistance that gives them what they need better than what they asked for. I cant see Renarins health being directly impacted negatively by Dalinars visit to the old magic. I could be wrong but I think a request for the strength to carry out Gavilars wish for the good of the people with the beginning of his desire for honour being flared as a boon and his amnesia as a clever curse that actually helped as a curse makes the most sense.

[Kenshu Ani]

But he also seems to feel a bit guilty about it and Renarin's poor health. There's no reason to feel guilty about forgetting his wife unless he thinks he asked for it. And there's no reason to feel guilt for his son's poor health unless he feels responsible for it, as if he thinks it's his curse.

Also he stated very decisively that he knows for certain what his curse and boon were. I for one view a charcter's certainty (espescially about memory altering events) suspect.

Well, Dalinar tends to feel guilty over everything. Navani: "Feeling guilty. Dalinar, you are a wonderful, honorable man - but you really are quite prone to self-indulgence."

We'll probably just have to wait and see to find out what his boon/curse is.

[Asha'man Logain]

Im not sure its that simple. I volunteer at childrens camps every year at the last one I did I had a camper who for health reasons couldnt participate in many activities, I felt really guilty about that I've seen it in other leaders ad well and in parents people feel guilty aboht all sorts of things Dalinars guilt could be just as much helplessness as guilt over that sort of curse.

Also there is a strong theme in the curses and booms we know of that selfish boons are twisted and get big curses on the parties involved and selfless requests get minimal curses and clever assistance that gives them what they need better than what they asked for. I cant see Renarins health being directly impacted negatively by Dalinars visit to the old magic. I could be wrong but I think a request for the strength to carry out Gavilars wish for the good of the people with the beginning of his desire for honour being flared as a boon and his amnesia as a clever curse that actually helped as a curse makes the most sense.

Which is why I think Renarin was sick and dying. Dalinar goes and asks (unselfishly) for his son to live. His curse is to lose all memory of his wife. Gaining one person's life at the expense of another. Not really a heavy curse, as the curse could easily be another's or Dalinar's own life, instead because he was self-less in his boon request, he loses the life he remembered with his wife. Which, I think we have hints of, he likely wasn't as happy as he'd have been with Navani. Perhaps losing his memory of her is all that lets his honor bend enough to be with Navani.

Heaps of speculation, I know. But this is what I think is going on for now. Maybe book 2 will crush my theories, either way, there will be more ammo for more baseless theories.

[ROSHtafARian]

Anyone else think there's a possibility Dalinar's amnesia curse is related at all to Shallan's perfect memory and the way it connects with her art?

Reading TWoK, that always stuck out to me and certainly didn't seem to have anything to do with Soulcasting....I know a lot of us have been assuming it has to do with whatever other Surge besides Soulcasting her Order has....but what if its not? What if Shallan has some connection with the Old Magic or the Nightwatcher.....or alternatively, what if the Nightwatcher isn't of Cultivation or some other Shard, but what if she's connected to Surgebinding, or is even one of the Heralds?

Just throwing that out there. I know the phrase Old Magic seems to indicate she's something older than the Knights Radiant at the very least, but its Brandon we're talking about and he's tricky. There could be another interpretation of that we're just not seeing yet.

[Morsk he/him]

Anyone else think there's a possibility Dalinar's amnesia curse is related at all to Shallan's perfect memory and the way it connects with her art?

I had an idea like that, but I don't like it so much anymore. But I thought that maybe all sacrifice is magic on Roshar, similar to how all art has a tiny bit of magic on Nalthis. And that the ridiculous Vorin gender restrictions play into this, and those who truly follow them have chance at being blessed or gifted in exchange. I thought the Thrill might be part of the same system, and that if we had more female PoVs we'd see the Vorin women have a lot of mental gifts. The Old Magic would be the same thing, only much more dramatic and explicit.

But I went back to seeing the memories as part of Surgebinding, not as a surge themselves, but as a free perk related to the method of infusing. Kaladin's inhaling focus comes with the perk of letting him hold his breath for a very long time. Shallan's I figure comes with the memories.

edit: Oh. I suppose Shallan's mother could have asked the Nightwatcher for a gifted child, and the Nightwatcher had her die in childbirth as the sacrifice, or gave her a curse she hated so much that she killed herself as soon as the pregnancy was finished.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Morsk

[MistSailer]

I kinda theorized that the amnesia was the boon as well. Unfortunately my main reason for thinking that (as well as seeing it here) is that it would be such a classic move for Brandon. Whether Dalinar remembers he asked for this isn't clear to me, but if I had to offer an opinion I would say he does.

Now that leaves us with a curse to figure out. I went over the things we know about the Nightwatcher: she delivers one each, and looking at the curses I'd say the effects are cognitive. The world being flipped upside down: perception. Numb hands: linked to the nervous system/brain. Even Dalinar's curse/boon (burse? coon?) is all in his head if you look at it right. If I stretch it a bit I can even link this to what Tanavast (sp?) says about Cultivation (a strong candidate in the forums for Nightwatcher if I'm correct) and her future sight fits. I'd guess said sight is gained/used through/in the Cognitive realm.

THUS we're looking for curse (according to my craziness) that affects Dalinar in single, simple, and definitive cognitive nature. (I believe Sanderson being the master of foreshadowing he is that it makes sense that we -would- have seen it) the first thing that really jumped out at me was the Thrill. Dalinar was having trouble with it as we all know. YES I know he's probably right to get sick at the sight of the atrocities of war, but I do have an answer. Kaladin, who is clearly very much tied to honor (unless he's actually Odium's dark champion, and the one on the back cover who "will destroy us" but that's a devils advocate-y theory for another day). He is able to define the Parshedi as them. If we can accept that there isn't anything inherently wrong with the Thrill then, in this case at least, Dalinar losing it amidst battles seems pretty cursy to me. I get that the major hole in this is that him feeling sick might be right, but I still think it works.

As far as an earlier post suggesting his honor is his curse, I find myself disagreeing. I feel that the honor we see in him is the end result of a long painful character arc of introspection and change (enough to maybe fill a books worth of log flashbacks mmmm? I'm looking at you SA book 3) not the result of a Cognitive curse brought suddenly as a result of the nightwatcher.

Thus ends my first attempt at a theory post.

Edited August 6, 2012 by MistSailer

[Yados]

I kinda theorized that the amnesia was the boon as well. Unfortunately my main reason for thinking that (as well as seeing it here) is that it would be such a classic move for Brandon. Whether Dalinar remembers he asked for this isn't clear to me, but if I had to offer an opinion I would say he does.

Now that leaves us with a curse to figure out. I went over the things we know about the Nightwatcher: she delivers one each, and looking at the curses I'd say the effects are cognitive. The world being flipped upside down: perception. Numb hands: linked to the nervous system/brain. Even Dalinar's curse/boon (burse? coon?) is all in his head if you look at it right. If I stretch it a bit I can even link this to what Tanavast (sp?) says about Cultivation (a strong candidate in the forums for Nightwatcher if I'm correct) and her future sight fits. I'd guess said sight is gained/used through/in the Cognitive realm.

THUS we're looking for curse (according to my craziness) that affects Dalinar in single, simple, and definitive cognitive nature. (I believe Sanderson being the master of foreshadowing he is that it makes sense that we -would- have seen it) the first thing that really jumped out at me was the Thrill. Dalinar was having trouble with it as we all know. YES I know he's probably right to get sick at the sight of the atrocities of war, but I do have an answer. Kaladin, who is clearly very much tied to honor (unless he's actually Odium's dark champion, and the one on the back cover who "will destroy us" but that's a devils advocate-y theory for another day). He is able to define the Parshedi as them. If we can accept that there isn't anything inherently wrong with the Thrill then, in this case at least, Dalinar losing it amidst battles seems pretty cursy to me. I get that the major hole in this is that him feeling sick might be right, but I still think it works.

As far as an earlier post suggesting his honor is his curse, I find myself disagreeing. I feel that the honor we see in him is the end result of a long painful character arc of introspection and change (enough to maybe fill a books worth of log flashbacks mmmm? I'm looking at you SA book 3) not the result of a Cognitive curse brought suddenly as a result of the nightwatcher.

Very nice catch on the cognitive nature of the Nightwatcher's boon/curse.

I believe our thinking is along the same lines. While you saw the nature of the Nightwatcher in the boon/curse stories in the interlude, I was working more from the pov's stated purpose to seek the Nightwatcher-- to become braver. If this is something within the Nightwatcher's purview-- to rewrite a person's nature as well as their ability/cognitive perception-- well, I don't know what that would mean.

The biggest problem with both of our theories is that Dalinar, apparently, knows both his boon and his curse. Which means he is very unlikely to not think of the two potential curses-- his growing change of disposition and his revulsion at the Thrill-- without also thinking of the Nightwatcher. And he thinks about both at great length in WoK.

Which is sort of the problem with books where you have flashbacks and pov's that can't spoil the flashback books. It's sort of cheating. Especially since there are things about Dalinar we're apparently not going to know until Book 5... while still probably getting his pov in each and every book.

[MistSailer]

Very nice catch on the cognitive nature of the Nightwatcher's boon/curse.

I believe our thinking is along the same lines. While you saw the nature of the Nightwatcher in the boon/curse stories in the interlude, I was working more from the pov's stated purpose to seek the Nightwatcher-- to become braver. If this is something within the Nightwatcher's purview-- to rewrite a person's nature as well as their ability/cognitive perception-- well, I don't know what that would mean.

The biggest problem with both of our theories is that Dalinar, apparently, knows both his boon and his curse. Which means he is very unlikely to not think of the two potential curses-- his growing change of disposition and his revulsion at the Thrill-- without also thinking of the Nightwatcher. And he thinks about both at great length in WoK.

Which is sort of the problem with books where you have flashbacks and pov's that can't spoil the flashback books. It's sort of cheating. Especially since there are things about Dalinar we're apparently not going to know until Book 5... while still probably getting his pov in each and every book.

I guess the only response to Dalinar knowing his curses, and not being like "oh damnation, I wish the Thrill wasn't so crappy, curse you nightwatcher! -shakes fist at sky-" would be that he isn't actually right about the curse and boon. If his memory was affected, there's no reason not to believe there is more not in his mind. It's hard to realize memories are gone. He notices the lack of wifely memories, but that's because she was such a big part of his life, and others, that a clean cut would be immpossible. Little individual details and moments relating to his curse/boon (what they are, what he asked etc) could have been affected without his knowledge.

It would be really convoluted to work out but 1. That's fun and 2. Brandon Sanderson, convoluted? nahhhhhhh

[Zas678 he/him]

Don't forget that Renarin mentions that the first effects of seeing the Nightwatcher (the boon and curse) always occur within a few months of seeing her. The Visions were a candidate of the Old Magic, but Dalinar said no, because 1. He knew what his boon and curse was, and 2. They started years after seing the Nightwatcher.

So my guess is that the lack of Thrill is not the curse.

[happyman he/him]

I'm pretty sure Dalinar was ashamed in front of Renarin at least partly because going to the Nightwatcher was heretical. It would be like a devout Orthodox Jew having to confess to their kid that they once ate a pork sandwich on a dare. I say, don't read too much in it.

[little wilson she/her]

I think the amnesia is the curse. I also think the boon he asked for had something to do with his jealousy at Gavilar, and his wanting to kill Gavilar and take his throne. Maybe the boon he asked for was to end his envy/re-spark his love for his brother? I think it fits.

For one, Dalinar doesn't want to think or talk about that day when he very nearly killed Gavilar. It was 10 years ago, so you'd think the pain of that day would've worn out a little bit. Unless he did something else on that same day, like that was the start of his quest to seek the Nightwatcher. He needed to get away from his brother before he did something, and he wanted to make sure and protect his brother from himself. The only way to be certain of that protection was to have the Nightwatcher grant it.

If that's the case, it would make sense, since Gavilar is family, for her to curse him in a way that is also family-oriented. His wife is already dead. To protect his brother, he needs to forget his wife.

[Cayden]

Personally I would not be surprised if the boon and the curse were not deeply entwined in Dalinar's case; for instance if he were to seek the old magic in an attempt to deal with the loss of his wife. It would be ironic if the Nightwatcher decided that the Boon should be for him to cope or even be able to move on, but the curse would be for him to not remember her.

The other real possibility I see is that Renarin takes after sshhh a lot more than he does Dalinar. I dont think they actually state in the book what she died from, but it could have been the same thing which Renarin suffers from but to a more advanced stage. If that were the case then the Boon might well have been for Renarin to not die from it and we all know not dying from something is not the same as a cure but Dalinar might not have phrased his Boon correctly in which case he would feel guilt towards Renarin, with the curse being the memories of his wife.

Im more inclined to think that the first option where the curse and the boon are tied together is the most likely, but until we get more viewpoint scenes it will be hard to nail down the truth.

[pbs17 he/him]

So... In an attempt to revive this discussion and not another argument, has anyone found any clues as to when Dalinar visited the Nightmother? I think whether or not he did it before or after Gavilar's assassination might help us figure a little more of the why.

[11thorderknight]

I don't remember where exactly the reference was, but didn't Dalinar mention in the book that forgetting SHHHH was the boon, not the curse? Also, the guy in the interlude where Shalash is going around breaking statues explains that the Nightwatcher doesn't grant specific requests: you go to her and ask for a boon, she gives you what she thinks you deserve, along with a corresponding curse. It's implied that the more selfless/noble the request, the less burdensome the curse is.

[Voidus]

Dalinar never said that it was his boon, but he does know what both boon and curse are. A few people have theorised that he might have asked for it as his boon but there's not really any proof for it. The Nightwatcher doesn't always give you what you ask for but most people do ask for a specific thing, she just ignores that and gives you what she thinks you deserve so kind of yes and no on that one